Senate Regulated Industries and Utilities Committee, February 3, 2026

Transcript

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1. 0:21:14

   We got a couple of bills on the agenda today.

2. 0:21:19

   Where's your gavel?

3. 0:21:20

   I left it. Should have brought it. First bill we're gonna take up is our majority leader has a bill that's left over from last year, Senate Bill 86. You can, uh, present from there if you'd like to, Mr. Leader.

4. 0:21:36

   All right. I appreciate it, Mr. Chairman. I don't know where Jeremy went. Um, he's got to earn his paycheck today. Um-

5. 0:21:43

   Well, I've got only two people signed up-

6. 0:21:45

   All right. Well-

7. 0:21:46

   ... other than you. This has been through the committee last year. I-

8. 0:21:48

   Yeah, I'm, I'm gonna be quick

9. 0:21:49

   ... think it was fairly-

10. 0:21:50

    This is the most pro-consumer, pro-freedom, pro-taxpayer bill, since we're talking about affordability today, so it helps people want to save money when they go to the grocery store.

11. 0:21:59

    Motion to pass. No, I, I- Go ahead and do it ... I do need you to refresh us. It's been a while. I was one of those students-

12. 0:22:06

    Hey, Jeremy, come on up here

13. 0:22:07

    ... I could, uh, pull an all-nighter and cram for the test and did pretty good- Say thank you ... but I didn't remember it a week later, and here we are six months later, we probably don't know every detail of your bill, so give us a-

14. 0:22:19

    I don't know

15. 0:22:19

    ... quick overview

16. 0:22:20

    ... some things we've passed I'm sure we also want to forget, so accept this bill.

17. 0:22:25

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee. I'll just highlight for you, um, and be, and I'm happy to go over in more detail what you'd like, um, to hear from me regarding the bill. This bill did pass out of committee last year and the year before, and, um, during that time, we've made some changes along the way to, or the, um, m- the leader's made changes along the way to, uh, address concerns. I'll point to line 19 in the bill.

18. 0:22:52

    Well, just tell us what it's about. What does it do to start with? Then you can get into details.

19. 0:22:57

    So it allows for retail, uh, retailers to offer coupons. Currently, the, um, the law in Georgia, retailers are not allowed to offer coupons. It also has a safeguard in there that says you cannot offer a coupon or a discount less than the amount, um, which the retailer purchased, um, uh, purchased the, um, the product for. That is a safeguard that was added in there, uh, last year. It also allows for doubling the in-store tastings, and the reason why we, um, you know, wanted to do that, we heard from a lot of other industries, and it allows twice the amount of, again, doubling of the in-store tastings, um, which will allow smaller labels and larger labels to be on more of an equal, um, foot.

20. 0:23:42

    And I would like to add one thing, um-

21. 0:23:44

    So you go from one a week, 52 a year, to as many as two tastings a week.

22. 0:23:49

    Yes, sir.

23. 0:23:49

    All right. And up to 104 in an annual period.

24. 0:23:53

    Yes, sir.

25. 0:23:53

    Okay.

26. 0:23:55

    And I would like to add, um, the same organizations that supported this bill last year support it this year with the addition of NFIB. That is the Georgia Association of Conven- of Convention and Visitor Bureaus, Georgia Retailers, Georgia Restaurant Association, and the Georgia Hotel and Lodging Association. Again, we, um, NFIB was added to that list of, um, organizations in support.

27. 0:24:19

    Okay. And s- you're using the word coupon, but we're talking about discounting the price on a product in order to stimulate sales.

28. 0:24:28

    Yes, Mr. Chairman.

29. 0:24:29

    Yeah.

30. 0:24:29

    That's just sort of, um, people have used that, um, that word over the last couple years as it's gone-

31. 0:24:34

    Mm-hmm

32. 0:24:34

    ... through your committee and been perfected.

33. 0:24:36

    Yeah.

34. 0:24:36

    So that's why I said coupon, but yes, you're right.

35. 0:24:38

    So they might be coupons like you cut out in the Sunday paper if you're going to get a discount on a certain type of bread or something at the grocery store.

36. 0:24:45

    Yes, sir.

37. 0:24:45

    Or it could be a scan your computer or see something online, whatever.

38. 0:24:49

    Yes.

39. 0:24:49

    Yeah.

40. 0:24:49

    I know this committee last year was talking about digital coupons, and at that time I brought what I thought was an example of the past strategy. I don't have those now, but yes, you're, you're correct, sir.

41. 0:24:57

    Okay. And procedurally, the bill passed this committee last year, and did it ever make it to the rules calendar? Was it ever on the floor of the Senate or just didn't get reached and was recommitted to us?

42. 0:25:10

    Yeah. Mr. Chairman, it passed this committee and passed out of the Senate rules, and it was the last possible, um, day for it to pass out, so it was a long... It was on the, available to be called on the House floor with, uh, I don't know, 50 other bills. I mean, a large number of bills, and it was one of the ones that did not get called up on the last day. The time ran out. So it did pass-

43. 0:25:30

    Oh

44. 0:25:30

    ... those two committees last year. And that was one of the reasons why the leader wanted to come and, um, off- or ask, um, for this committee to reconsi- or to consider this, um, earlier so there'd be more time, so the clock, um, potentially would not run out.

45. 0:25:42

    Sounds good. Any committee members have questions for either the author or Mr. Collins? None from this side. Uh, over here, Senator Walker, you are recognized for a question.

46. 0:25:54

    Yes, Mr. Chairman, I apologize. I w- I was not on this committee last year, so just give me a practical, explain it to me just in practical terms, please, how this actually works. It looks like it's not specific to any particular brand of alcoholic beverages, so the, the retailer is absorbing the cost of the discount it looks like to me the way I read it. Does that, I mean, how does this actually work in practice?

47. 0:26:24

    Yes. Mr. Pro Tem, there w- um, there was a concern last year, and that's, there was, that's what it was-

48. 0:26:28

    I don't wanna... Uh, just tell me how it works. I mean, is this like a liquor store or a... How does this work in the real world? I don't even, I don't drink alcohol, but-

49. 0:26:40

    Well, it allows, right now the retailer, so you own, you know, you own your local bottle shop, whatever you wanna call it, it allows them to be able to offer their own coupons, and it has the safeguards in there where you can't, you know, discount to take somebody else out of business, absorb those losses. So it'll, right now the retailer, if you own the brick-and-mortar store, you rent the property, whatever it is, you're not allowed to accept the manufacturer's coupons and you're not allowed to do them, uh, yourself. So this would allow everybody the opportunity if they wanted to, to do that. If they didn't want to offer a coupon for their business, they wouldn't have to.

50. 0:27:13

    And then the double in-store tastings is sort of what I had mentioned earlier. Um, we've- I don't think I've received any pushback on that over the last couple of years. And it, you know, it allows, it, it helps put the small, we'll use, we'll just say north Georgia wine country. It allows the smaller, uh, companies to be on more of a par with the larger companies. So if the retailer chooses to, you know, have a tastings of, of, you know, their local vineyard, if you will. Um, so those, those are the two... I hope I answered your question, the two aspects of the bill.

51. 0:27:46

    So is this, could this be a grocery store that sells beer and wine, I guess? Or is it a liquor store? Is it a wine store?

52. 0:27:54

    Yeah, yeah, it, it could. I mean, what I'm... Well, if you have, like, I re- I mean, my client's Total Wine. I'm sorry, I should have said that when I sat down. Um, you know, we have five stores, and only two stores you're allowed to sell spirits in. That's, uh, so they have, um, three that are just allowed to sell, um, beer and wine. There's been, been some, um, initiative to change that, and it hasn't gone anywhere. Um, so I'm speaking on behalf of, you know, of those stores. But yes, I would assume you could do that as well. Um, I don't know of a grocery store that would want to do a tastings, and that's an assumption, so I wanna make sure I don't get myself in trouble.

53. 0:28:28

    Most grocery stores are not licensed to sell liquor.

54. 0:28:34

    So it'd be unlikely to be a grocery store selling Tito's Vodka. Um, it is clear that the, it can't be, you, you can't sell something for less than its cost, and this is not specific. At line 19, it's not specific to a particular brand. It's a store discount. Sometimes volume sales or whatever, if you get a certain amount. It'd be a small discount anyway.

55. 0:29:04

    I got... Question. Senator Williams, you're recognized for a question.

56. 0:29:07

    Thank you. My, my question is, uh, is, is it not true that some package stores, liquor stores can get bigger discounts from wholesalers than others by buying in bulk? Is that not true?

57. 0:29:26

    That was, um, that's a very good question, um, Senator. That was a question that was brought up last year.

58. 0:29:32

    I wasn't here last year.

59. 0:29:33

    Yeah, I know.

60. 0:29:33

    Excuse me.

61. 0:29:34

    And no, I know you were. Um, you were not. Um, a r- um, retailers cannot offer sales under o- um, the Department of Revenue. Um, and that is, that's proprietary information. Sorry, I was reading one of the questions that came up last year. I was reading a different question. But, uh, we, Total Wine, for example, does not know what their competitor is purchasing, um, alcohol for. So there's no way to know that. One would think if you buy in larger bulk, like in any other business, you would get a discount.

62. 0:30:05

    But that is information that I don't have because it's proprietary information.

63. 0:30:11

    But standard... May I carry on?

64. 0:30:13

    Go ahead.

65. 0:30:13

    Standard business in, in alcohol, um, if you, you, you, some of the wholesalers will come by, and if you buy 20 cases of Crown Royal, then you're gonna get them at a lesser price than the guy down the street that only buys five cases. So is, is that gonna give Total Wines or those big box stores an unfair advantage over the mom and pop stops, shops?

66. 0:30:46

    Is this, uh, unleveling of that?

67. 0:30:51

    Yeah, I don't, I mean, I could, you, one would think if you buy in larger bulk, who you're buying for has incentive.

68. 0:30:57

    Okay.

69. 0:30:57

    But that is proprietary information.

70. 0:30:58

    I, I didn't know if that was discussed last year or not.

71. 0:31:00

    That I do not know. I mean, I think it would depend, like-

72. 0:31:02

    We had some conversation about it. Yeah. We, nobody has a bill for it.

73. 0:31:05

    Right. You did, um, Mr. Chairman.

74. 0:31:09

    Go to Walmart. Mom and pops. Senator Ginn, you're recognized for a question. I just, when you're ready to have a motion, sir, I want, ready to get on with life. Well, I've got somebody else that's been s- signed up to be heard on this. I'm gonna hear them first. Any other questions from committee members on this side? All right, I'm gonna, I've got two, two witnesses who want to be heard on it. Uh, first of all, Mr. Bob Brewer. Mr. Brewer, if you would just take the podium there, please, sir. Introduce yourself and give us your thoughts on the bill.

75. 0:31:42

    Are you laughing about the brewer part? Is that why? I've, I've heard that a few times before, Senator. Um, all right. Well, good afternoon, Senators. My name is, uh, Dr. Robert Brewer. I'm a physician, epidemiologist, a retired captain in the, uh, US Public Health Service, and the former director of the Alcohol Program at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. And I'm here to testify against SB 86, uh, because it's bad for public health. Um, there are three key points I'd like to make to you today in my brief remarks. First, uh, as if you don't know this already, excessive drinking is a huge public health problem in the state of Georgia and the United States.

76. 0:32:19

    Secondly, the price of alcohol has a very strong effect on alcohol consumption. And third, you can help prevent alcohol-related harms due to excessive drinking by voting against this bill. Excessive drinking, including binge drinking and underage drinking, kills in excess of 5,000 people in Georgia each year. And, um, that also shortens the lives of those who die by about 25 years, 'cause a lot of people who die of alcohol-related problems are in the prime of their life. Um, excessive drinking also is strongly associated with many health and social problems, including high blood pressure, breast cancer, colon cancer, cancer of the mouth and throat, unintended pregnancy, violence, motor vehicle crashes, opiate overdoses, and, uh, the list goes on and on.

77. 0:33:03

    And it's also very expensive, and I think when we talk about potential savings from a discount, uh, on, on alcohol, we also ought to talk about the fact that excessive drinking k- uh, costs, um, Georgians about $6.9 billion, or about $2.12 per drink. Effectively, that's a tax that we're all paying on alcohol because of the, the cost of excessive drinking, and that includes 2.8 billion, or about 86 cents per drink in government-funded healthcare costs and criminal justice expenses. So it's a very expensive public health problem.

78. 0:33:35

    Um, and we know that alcohol consumption is very sensitive to price, and that gets at, at what this bill is all about. It's about lowering the price. And we know that, um, for, um, uh, every 10% increase in the price of alcohol, consumption decreases by about 7%. Conversely, if you reduce the price of alcohol, you would expect it would be about the opposite. So in other words, a 10% decline would increase consumption by, uh, about, uh, 7%. In fact, we may actually already be discounting the price of alcohol in Georgia, because we haven't increased alcohol taxes in Georgia for about 40 years.

79. 0:34:11

    As a result, alcohol excise taxes in Georgia declined by 42% from 1990 to 2015 due to inflation. And in fact, it's, it's d- uh, declined even further than that since that time. So the good news is that you can do something about this, about, about this erosion in the price of alcohol due to the reduction in taxes by voting against SB 86, and thereby, uh, avoiding further reductions in the retail price of alcohol, and protecting taxpayers from having to pick up the tab for alcohol-related problems, which is what, in fact, is already happening now.

80. 0:34:44

    We simply can't afford, um, to make alcohol cheaper than it already is in Georgia, and further risk the health and safety as a, of all Georgians as a result. The other thing I wanna say is that when I was here last year testifying against this bill, um, there were some questions c- that came up about, "Well, why can't we just let people discount the price of alcohol like we do with soap or with bread or other products?" Well, alcohol isn't soap or bread. You don't have people dying from those products and, and from excessive use of those products. You do with alcohol, and that's why we have controls on alcohol that we don't have with other products.

81. 0:35:15

    So I, I would really invite you to not look at this, uh, potential discounting bill as if it's just discounting of any product. Uh, alcohol is not an ordinary commodity, and it shouldn't be treated as such. Thanks so much.

82. 0:35:26

    Thank you, Dr. Burrell. Mike Griffin.

83. 0:35:34

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name is Mike Griffin. I'm the public affairs representative of the Georgia Baptist Mission Board. Been here, done that, got four or five T-shirts from doing this. Um, uh, my first time testifying in here dealing with alcohol was in 2007. Um, and, um, you know, I've been with Georgia Baptist, I've been down here 19 years, 13 with Georgia Baptist, and, um, you know, we certainly oppose this legislation. We love and respect our senator here that's offering it, but in 2021, we passed a resolution, Georgia Baptist, and we've done this through the years, and we represent 1.4 million Georgians, so we're about 10% of the population, about 3,500 churches.

84. 0:36:18

    Uh, so this is not just me and four or five Baptists got together and decided we'd oppose it. It's just we're concerned, you just heard the data, so I don't need to go very long on this, but in our resolution that we passed, it talked about the fact that availability equals sales, sales equals consumption, and consumption equals potential problems. Um, there's a reason why they call 7-Elevens convenience stores.

85. 0:36:48

    It makes it more convenient, and when something is more convenient, accessible, and I'm sure the reason they're gonna want this passed by the industry is I'm sure it's not gonna hurt their sales. I don't think they would be forward if it would hurt their sales. They wanna increase their sales, which means they wanna sell more alcohol. And the more alcohol that's sold, the more the people that are gonna drink it. Uh, we're not here for prohibition. Uh, since 1933 w- that's when it was stopped.

86. 0:37:21

    But it was very heavily regulated after 1933, because we have to understand, as, as you just heard, this is not like regulating Coca-Colas and Mountain Dews. And I've, you, you've heard me share this many times. I've been in this committee. You go back to the Washington Post a number of years a- way back, it says that alcohol is the deadliest drug in the United States, and it's not even close. So again, we're trying to regulate something here, uh, that has the ability to be able to impair individuals.

87. 0:37:57

    And again, we're not here to say we should not have it. We're just simply saying it's a public health and safety issue. And when I testified here in 2007, I think I mentioned the fact that it looks like we're getting to a point where we're not gonna be satisfied till it's sold 24/7, including lemonade stands. Because if we go to that again, we're gonna b- back to a pre-1920 when we had a wild, wild west of alcohol in the United States, and that's why you had prohibition.

88. 0:38:27

    And then they stopped that, and then they went into heavy regulation so that people would have the right to drink, okay? There are responsible drinkers out there. Doesn't mean everybody that drinks alcohol is gonna get drunk. But we have to understand we do have to properly regulate it, so I think it's a public health and safety issue, too. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

89. 0:38:44

    Thank you, Mike. Appreciate you sharing. All right, I recognize you at this time, Senator... Oh, you got a question-

90. 0:38:50

    I do have a question

91. 0:38:51

    ... for Mr. Griffin?

92. 0:38:52

    I'm not sure-

93. 0:38:53

    Or the author

94. 0:38:53

    ... not for Mr. Griffin, no. Um, I got a lot of questions for Mr. Griffin, but it's more about my soul. Um. No, my question is on the taxation of the alcohol. Would it be taxed at the, at the full price, or would it be taxed at that new discounted rate? I'm trying to... I, I feel like it's taking a stab at it there, 26 through 28, but I'm not 100% sure that's what that's talking about.

95. 0:39:26

    Just an assumption it would be taxed at the price that it's sold. Um, it's, I believe that's under Department of Revenue, and one of the perfections that this committee, um, approved and the leader added to the bill last year was line 22 and 23, and that was from the Department of Revenue, and that's the only thing that they had requested to be, um- To be added to this bill, and I w- this is not their bill, but they are okay as of this afternoon with, um, adding that language, and I believe that they are the taxation, um, body for this, uh, state.

96. 0:40:01

    Okay.

97. 0:40:03

    All right. Other questions for the author or Mr. Collins from committee members? All right, then at this time, I recognize you, Senator Ginn, for a motion.

98. 0:40:11

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Move due pass on LC550515S.

99. 0:40:18

    Second.

100. 0:40:18

     And I-

101. 0:40:18

     There's a second

102. 0:40:19

     ... I do also wanna make sure that, that, uh, uh, I agree with Mr. Brewer. I don't wanna see any more, uh, DUIs, children drinking, underage, excessive drinking, and all the things there said they've been hit by a DUI. I'm not much of a drinker myself, but the, uh, I do realize that it is a legal substance. It is one of those things that, um, it, it may have kind of, uh, come with its own problems, but the, uh, I don't think this is gonna be the, the, uh, nail in the coffin for us.

103. 0:40:48

     And there's a second by Senator Albers. Is there any discussion on the motion due pass? All right, all in favor, raise your hand.

104. 0:41:00

     I've got a bunch.

105. 0:41:00

     I see some. I've got nine yeses. All opposed, raise your hand. One, two, three, four, five. It's nine to five. It passes. It'll move on to Rules Committee for further consideration. Thank you, Mr. Leader.

106. 0:41:12

     Thank you.

107. 0:41:13

     Appreciate-

108. 0:41:13

     It was a great-

109. 0:41:13

     ... you presenting it to us

110. 0:41:14

     ... honor.

111. 0:41:18

     All

112. 0:41:21

     right, Senate Bill 86. I mean, s- just moving on to 34. Senator Hufstetler, you may present from the podium or the witness chair. Why don't you, why don't you sit in that middle chair?

113. 0:41:33

     In the middle.

114. 0:41:33

     It's easier. Yeah.

115. 0:41:39

     And I'll, I'll just, uh, sort of advise folks, if you look in your folder, you're gonna see what is our most recent proposed committee substitute by Senator Hufstetler. That's LC560546S. Behind that is the bill that passed last year, LC550460S. All right? Um, if you wanna review for us what you're presenting, once again refresh our memory, this is the first of, I'll anticipate, several data center bills that we will consider this year.

116. 0:42:22

     All right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, going back to last year, we had looked at doing something to, uh, protect the homeowners because, um, the way the, the structure's been, homeowners and small businesses get a lot of capital costs that some of the large load customers don't pay for. Um, so we had looked at legislation. I had, uh, shared it with, uh, PSE staff. I think that was late December. They were apparently moving at the same time at doing something as well, and I think it was maybe January 26 that they had a, uh, ruling that said that they would put those costs on the, on the customers that, that cost them.

117. 0:43:07

     Well, um-

118. 0:43:10

     Uh-

119. 0:43:10

     ... we felt like several things in, in some discussions that it's only a, a ruling that, in my opinion, was hard to be verifiable, particularly with the trade secrets, and that also, um, it could be changed with 30 days notice, and we felt it should be codified into law. So we presented the bill. It came to this committee. It passed out of Regulated Industries, and it then, uh, like a lot of others, didn't get to a floor vote, so we're back where we are.

120. 0:43:42

     Now, in the meantime, I had, uh, prepared a substitute that's in there that changed the language from, uh, data centers to large load customers. I've heard some feedback that some people don't like that. Um, I would ... And so I'm, I'm willing to look at going back, and, and I guess today I, I would say I'll bring up some other stuff. I w- I would like to just probably hear it today and get this language straightened out a little bit, s- any confusion that's out there.

121. 0:44:13

     So are you fine with us just having a hearing only today rather than taking action?

122. 0:44:15

     Yeah. I mean, I, I really feel like I've got the votes from what the committee's told me, but at the same time, I think there's some opportunity to do some more work on this bill and perhaps-

123. 0:44:23

     Well, you passed it last year. The question is-

124. 0:44:25

     Get it out of the-

125. 0:44:25

     ... do you wanna perfect it now or later?

126. 0:44:27

     I, I guess I would like to, to hopefully, and I know your schedule gets busy, but hopefully come back in a couple of days with a- another bill. So the, uh, tariff ruling that Georgia Power did, if, if I'm correct, back January 26 of last year, didn't specify, uh, data centers. It said large load customers of, uh, 100 megawatts or greater. So I was really just mirroring what they said.

127. 0:44:54

     That was in a PSE rule or regulation?

128. 0:44:57

     Correct.

129. 0:44:58

     Okay.

130. 0:44:58

     Uh, it was-

131. 0:44:58

     It was aimed at these large load customers, and that's defined 100 megawatts or greater.

132. 0:45:03

     Yeah. Now, it's my understanding that nobody other than a data center in the last year has met that definition.

133. 0:45:11

     Okay.

134. 0:45:11

     Uh, but they certainly could in the future.

135. 0:45:13

     You aimed your initial legislation at data centers due to the publicity about how much power they needed and water and resources and-

136. 0:45:21

     Right. They were gonna need a lot of, lot of power, and, and because of the fact that, you know, if I go back to, uh, say, 2023, the electricity kilowatts sold by Georgia Power were actually less than 2011. The demand wasn't increasing, but yet the, the Plant Vogtle that had substantially increased everyone's power bills due to the capital cost, and will be on there in a mortgage for the next 60 years on their cost, was going to the data centers. And so, um, it seemed that it was inappropriate for their bills to keep going up- And, you know, I, I think the Public Service Commission, again, was on a similar path looking at that as well.

137. 0:46:03

     Um-

138. 0:46:03

     So they had a rule or regulation that wasn't specific to just data centers, but it was aimed at them.

139. 0:46:08

     It was aimed at them, but it... B- I think everybody in the last year would meet that. W- that would meet that requirement was a data center.

140. 0:46:15

     Yeah.

141. 0:46:15

     But there's people in the past that also meet that, and there could certainly be some in the future that could meet that.

142. 0:46:21

     Okay.

143. 0:46:21

     Um, so that's the question is do we, we match it with their terminology or do we go back to the original bill? Consequently, in the meantime, just-

144. 0:46:32

     Is that the only difference between your last year's version that we passed and this new committee substitute?

145. 0:46:37

     Just, just the, the large load customer of 100 megawatts versus specifically saying data center.

146. 0:46:42

     Okay. All right.

147. 0:46:43

     That, that's the change. In the meantime, I've seen today a bill from the House, and, um, by, uh, Chairman Thomas over there, who I know has looked at this for a while, and, um, he looks like he spells out things a little bit more. So I guess I would like to review his as well. And I see where five lines in my bill he copied onto his bill, so I might wanna copy some of his lines onto my bill. I don't know. It seems only fair. Uh, so with that, um, I can talk more detail, but I do think that, uh, it's been a year between his bill and some discussions I've had on the 100, 100 megawatts versus specifically saying data centers, that I would like to tweak this a little bit more and-

148. 0:47:31

     Okay

149. 0:47:31

     ... get some help from the committee certainly.

150. 0:47:35

     I'm gonna allow some committee members to ask you questions so we can get our heads around exactly the issues we're dealing with. I do like to make sure we get it right or as close as possible. Uh, I know that Chairman Brass has developed, uh, some expertise in this area, particular on the, the taxing side of things, and I, I'm gonna ask for him to give us input for any changes, and you and any other committee members that might, or members of the public. I'm gonna go ahead and hear some testimony today, and we're gonna ask you some questions so we can advance this process.

151. 0:48:08

     I put you on our agenda because I was trying to move bills that had already moved out of this committee last year.

152. 0:48:15

     Mm-hmm.

153. 0:48:15

     This subject matter has exploded in the last year, and it is more complex now than it was when you were trying to make sure residential customers were not sharing the-

154. 0:48:26

     Power ahead of their time

155. 0:48:27

     ... uh, cost of, uh... Yeah, data. You're at the tip of the spear here. Senator Lucas, you're recognized for a question.

156. 0:48:33

     Senator-

157. 0:48:34

     You'll be next, Senator Ginn.

158. 0:48:36

     The... I thought the original concept of, of what S- Senator Huffstetler's doing was that you could not put in rates to regular customers for data centers.

159. 0:48:53

     Mm-mm.

160. 0:48:54

     In other words-

161. 0:48:54

     Yeah

162. 0:48:55

     ... the reading of me that the da- data center would have no effect on regular paying customers.

163. 0:49:01

     That's exactly his concept, and what, what we saw last year was, uh, Georgia Power had submitted a five-year plan to Public Service Commission showing the increased need for energy production, new plants. And that plan detailed that the primary reason for that was not residential growth in Georgia, but was the, um-

164. 0:49:23

     Data centers

165. 0:49:24

     ... data centers that were gobbling up so much power. And s- so Senator Huffstetler was like, "Well, that's not fair for all of the rest of us to be absorbing the cost of building new electricity generating facilities when the only reason we need them is for data centers." Now, that is a very much a simplification of-

166. 0:49:44

     Well-

167. 0:49:44

     But that's the gist. So, so you're right. And so his bill was to try to make sure that when there was a data center or other very large use of electricity customer that came in that was gonna require more infrastructure, that they pay for that infrastructure and not you and your neighbors.

168. 0:50:01

     That, that, that, that is no question about it, but data centers is about money. If, if you look in rural communities, they are trying to get data centers because they're looking at an influx of money. Well, the data center oughta pay for it. They, they the ones that, that got it, and they making the money, and the communities are... I mean, you see all over the communities in, in, in Monroe County-

169. 0:50:28

     Yeah

170. 0:50:28

     ... a small rural community, folks, uh, all up in arms about where it's gonna be located, and if you locate it near a, a community or something like that... Apologize. That's my people going on to tell me I need to get some ... metal someplace. Excuse me.

171. 0:50:42

     Mama said you gotta come home. Okay.

172. 0:50:44

     No.

173. 0:50:44

     Talk quick. Yeah, ask that question, then. We gotta go.

174. 0:50:47

     No, not now it's said, but it should be.

175. 0:50:49

     You, you've laid the foundation for your question. Let's hear it.

176. 0:50:52

     Well, I'm, I'm, I'm just wondering. I, I mean, you got lobbies that represent them, and it is a industry, and they do pay good money coming in the community. But, uh, I say they ought to pay, pay their share because they making money. They're not in here to, to lose money. They come, they come to make money.

177. 0:51:21

     Okay. Thank you for that question. Any other questions from the committee members? Senator, uh, Ginn, I think I had you next, then Senator Brass.

178. 0:51:29

     Uh, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, Senator Huffstetler said they, uh... I- I'm not a lawyer, so I haven't, haven't got the book in front of me, but if I go back and I look at, uh, chapter two of title 46, the, uh... Does that strictly pertain to Georgia Power Company, or does that... A- and the bill doesn't specify. It says electric utility, such electric utility. Uh, and I'm kind of curious. The, uh... You know, predominantly we have, uh- Three major power suppliers in the state.

179. 0:52:04

     We have Georgia Power, the, uh, the EMCs, and MEAG, as well as the city of Dalton, and I'm just kind of curious, would this affect anybody other than Georgia Power, or would this only affect the, uh, Georgia Power?

180. 0:52:17

     The, the, the Georgia Power rates are the ones that the Public Service Commission regulates, and so that's who it would apply to.

181. 0:52:24

     Okay. Is there... There's n- nobody else? The, uh... And, and when we start talking about the Public Service Commission, the, uh... My question is, is are we not kind of meddling into their business in the, uh... Uh, i- if they're, they're set up to list the rate cases and things there, the, uh... What's the difference? Why, why don't we give them the ability to set rates, and then we're, we're gonna go in here and tell them, "Well, no, you got to do this"?

182. 0:52:53

     I, I think we've heard an outpouring from the, the consumers that have taken on that cost, and I, I, I would... I mean, being blunt, I think at the ballot box in November, people were upset that they were putting those costs on the consumers, and so I think it's one of the things that's appropriate for legislators to step in. Now, back in 2008, 2009 when the legislators stepped in and did some special financing that put 15 years of surcharges on the bills for Plant Vogel, I didn't, don't think there was any complaints on the legislature meddling on that side of it, so I think it's fair to do it.

183. 0:53:28

     I wasn't here then, so I, I know you weren't either.

184. 0:53:30

     I wa- I wasn't either.

185. 0:53:31

     The, uh... And, and so we, we can't, we take, take the blame or credit for that. I, I am curious to... And, and I see that, that the P- PSC has staff here today, so I would ask for them to help us with this, if that's okay, Mr. Chairman.

186. 0:53:44

     I appreciate your request. We'll see if they comply. Senator Brass.

187. 0:53:50

     Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So yeah, so when we looked at this last year, uh, one of the reasons... I did vote against it, and one of the reasons I did vote against it was I f- I kind of feel like we're not being clear on what the cost are. Um, you know, I do... In looking at, at the House Bill 1063, I think they, uh, they made an attempt to start to lay out what those cost are, and I, I feel like if we put an ambiguous law out there, you know, we, we're gon- uh, I feel like we could end up in some court cases that are, that are unnecessary.

188. 0:54:29

     Um, so I would love to work with the author of the bill in, um, maybe incorporating some of the language, maybe all of the language, maybe additional language from House Bill 1063 in really laying out, okay, what, what cost are we not gonna allow them to pass down, which is essentially all of them, but we need to lay that out, and, and that, that would be my suggestion and request, and I appreciate his willingness to work.

189. 0:54:57

     And, and if I could respond, Chairman Brass is the one who brought my attention to the House bill with his concerns, and we, we, uh, specify in, in two statements what those costs are. They specify in four statements. So I think it's, it's a fair point, and would appreciate him working on this as well.

190. 0:55:17

     Okay. Are there any committee members that have a question for the author?

191. 0:55:23

     Sorry.

192. 0:55:24

     Dean, you're recognized.

193. 0:55:25

     Yeah. Just, just one more. Um, Senator Hufstetler, you, you mentioned that you're gonna perfect it. Is that in line with some of the issues brought up by Senator Brass kind of thinking about-

194. 0:55:36

     Correct

195. 0:55:37

     ... what we want?

196. 0:55:37

     Yeah. I, I think, uh, he's offered to work with me on that and make sure, you know, we, we have the language, and, and we can certainly... Like I say, the, the House copied some of my bill. I'm not opposed to copying some of their bill if it's better language than, than mine in, in one area. So.

197. 0:55:54

     Okay.

198. 0:55:54

     We do have a number of people signed up, and to make good use of our time here, I want to hear from some of them. It w- might inform you, and Senator Brass, and me, and any other members that want to make changes for, uh, a later committee sub. I'm gonna... I only have two people against the bill and a bunch for it. I'm gonna start with Tom Bond from the Public Service Commission at Senator Ginn's request, who says he is neutral. I'd love to have your views on it, and, uh, let Senator Ginn ask you any questions he may have.

199. 0:56:28

     Thank you, Tom.

200. 0:56:29

     Thank you. Uh, Chairman Jason Shaw couldn't be here today, and he asked me to come and comment on his behalf. Um, the chairman does not disagree with the substance of the bill, and in fact, it's what the commission is already doing with large load customers. Um, the commission as a body has not taken a position on the bill, but the commission's general position on bills that restrict flexibility in rate making is caution because limiting the ability in the future for the commission to respond to changing circumstances is risky and can have unintended consequences.

201. 0:57:07

     This is particularly true with something like data centers where the industry is quickly evolving and in flux. Last year, the commission adopted new ro- rules for large load customers. Large load was defined as 100 megawatts plus. Um, up until a couple years ago, the Georgia Power had, had only in its entire history had one customer that was 100 megawatts, um, but that's fairly typical for the kind of data centers that are, that are coming into Georgia now.

202. 0:57:38

     The new rules provide that, uh, or allow Georgia Power to require minimum bills that cover the incremental cost of the new generation and transmission assets that will be used to c- to serve the data center. This is designed to prevent the cost to serve these data centers from shifting to existing customers. The new rules allow Georgia Power to require longer term contracts to allow recovery of, of more of those costs from the customers. Uh, they allow Georgia Power to impose more collateral requirements, um, and they include early termination penalties.

203. 0:58:14

     If a, if a data center comes in and, and tries to leave, um, they have to make a, a, a fair amount of, of payments in order to do so to help recover those costs. The draft contracts and supporting revenue requirement calculations for the minimum bill- Are required to be filed with the commission, they're reviewed by staff, and the commission can reject them if they find that they do not exis- protect existing customers. Um, so I wanted to give you a little background on that. And, uh, as I said, the commission's not taking a position on the bill, but there is a, there's always a potential danger of locking in a particular methodology in an evolving industry.

204. 0:58:58

     I- is that, uh, in a written rule or regulation or just informal process that the PSC has been using?

205. 0:59:05

     Um, there's, there's a couple different orders on it, and then there's-

206. 0:59:09

     Mm-hmm

207. 0:59:09

     ... a tariff. And the tariff is... So commission issues an order, Georgia Power files a, a compliance tariff. In this case, I think the, the tariff was modified by the commission, and the tariff lays out all of these requirements. And then the order of the commission lays out the process of filing the da- draft contracts with the supporting documents, the review of those, and the ability of the commission to reject them if they are not in the public interest and don't protect existing customers.

208. 0:59:40

     Does the tariff change from customer to customer, or is it just a certain rate that we're talking about?

209. 0:59:47

     It, it is a, it is a, it is a set tariff, and the tariff applies to all customers, uh, who are 100 megawatts or more, and they have to take service under that tariff.

210. 1:00:01

     I- is there a higher level above that? I mean, is there a different tariff at 200 megawatts or 300 megawatts?

211. 1:00:07

     N- no, no.

212. 1:00:07

     Okay.

213. 1:00:07

     The, there's, there's lesser requirements for... You know, up until recently, there were no 100 megawatt customers, and so, you know, Georgia Power had tariff requirements that, that provided, say, you know, five-year contract terms and, and certain types of collateral. With these customers, they are so big the, the, the commission did not think that ratepayers would be adequately protected, and so that's why the commission approved this new tariff that, where you can have, you know, 15-year terms.

214. 1:00:41

     So, um, several committee members have asked me are we gonna be shutting down manufacturing plants in Georgia or limiting new economic expansion. Give me an idea how much 100 megawatts is. I mean, I read newspaper articles that these things are like powering a small city-

215. 1:00:58

     Well-

216. 1:00:58

     ... or a large city.

217. 1:00:59

     I mean, the, the, Georgia Power's share of Vogtle 3 and 4 that took, what, 12 years to build is 1,200 megawatts.

218. 1:01:10

     Okay. So 12 data centers would, if they were-

219. 1:01:13

     If they were 100

220. 1:01:14

     ... that size.

221. 1:01:14

     Now, now there are some data centers that are over 1,000 megawatts.

222. 1:01:19

     One gig.

223. 1:01:20

     Okay.

224. 1:01:20

     Yeah.

225. 1:01:21

     And you're talking about a hundred. Some of them are-

226. 1:01:22

     Yeah

227. 1:01:22

     ... 10 times this-

228. 1:01:24

     Yeah

229. 1:01:24

     ... right.

230. 1:01:25

     The-

231. 1:01:25

     Is-

232. 1:01:25

     Georgia, Georgia legislation-

233. 1:01:26

     Hang on

234. 1:01:27

     ... defines, you know, y- you've got the Territorial Act that allows large customers to, to select their provider. That's, uh, that's less than one megawatt meets that definition.

235. 1:01:40

     Okay. So w- give me an example. Kia Motors, how many megawatts does that huge automobile plant use? Do you got a ballpark figure?

236. 1:01:50

     I, I don't. I could, I could get that for you, but I don't have it.

237. 1:01:54

     Okay. Would you agree it would be less than 100 megawatts?

238. 1:01:57

     I think it is less than 100.

239. 1:01:58

     Okay. Um-

240. 1:01:59

     Yeah

241. 1:01:59

     ... if I can pronounce it, Hyundai or whatever the new one is down there in Pooler-

242. 1:02:04

     Yeah

243. 1:02:04

     ... what, what kind of load do they have?

244. 1:02:06

     Um, they're, they're pretty big, but they're, they're not... They, they could be up to 100 megawatts, but not bigger.

245. 1:02:14

     Okay.

246. 1:02:14

     Augusta Newsprint, I don't know if y'all remember them, but they, they were the only Georgia Power customer historically that was 100 megawatts.

247. 1:02:21

     Okay. What, so some people in the forestry indus- industry are uptight. Any of them 100 megawatt customers?

248. 1:02:30

     No.

249. 1:02:30

     Okay. So this is a very unique set of customers that would be using this much power.

250. 1:02:38

     Yeah, I mean, the, the, absolutely. It, it, they were often referred to as mega customers.

251. 1:02:43

     Okay. On these, your, your new rule allows you to have sample contracts that you want Georgia Power to use in signing those folks up to-

252. 1:02:57

     Well-

253. 1:02:57

     ... give you some of those protection. What happens if they go out of business or, you know, guarantees of usage, et cetera?

254. 1:03:03

     That's right. And then they have to file the actual agreed upon contract with us before it's executed.

255. 1:03:12

     And you gotta approve-

256. 1:03:12

     And the commission has the opportunity to, to reject it-

257. 1:03:15

     Okay

258. 1:03:15

     ... if they find that it, it doesn't, it doesn't adequately protect customers.

259. 1:03:19

     I'm gonna call these people mega customers, all right?

260. 1:03:23

     All right.

261. 1:03:23

     'Cause they're, they're different than a large load customer.

262. 1:03:26

     Yeah, yeah.

263. 1:03:26

     They are biggens, uh, and they're megawatts. So, uh, do you make them pay part of the cost of providing or generating the electricity? Some of them are willing to-

264. 1:03:43

     Yeah

265. 1:03:43

     ... you know, build their separate plant or whatever, a power plant or, or substation or whatever it takes them to get the power. Do you make them give you a large capital contribution when you know you're gonna have to expand your-

266. 1:03:55

     They-

267. 1:03:55

     ... power generating capacity?

268. 1:03:57

     They ma- they make an initial large capital contribution for the transmission investment necessary to connect them up, and then the minimum bill is designed to cover the, the generation cost as well as general transmission cost. And so the minimum bill is, is what they have to pay even if they don't use any electricity at all. So it's, it's a new concept. We look at how much electricity they said they were gonna use in their proposal, and then the minimum bill is designed to c- to collect the incremental costs of providing that level of service, whether they actually use it or not.

269. 1:04:41

     'Cause you gotta provide, you gotta generate enough so you could meet their needs.

270. 1:04:46

     Right.

271. 1:04:46

     Okay.

272. 1:04:47

     Oftentimes they'll use more than the minimum bill amount, in which case their bill is higher. They have a regular tariff that will kick in once they exceed a certain number of, uh, a certain usage, and then they'll pay additional money-

273. 1:05:00

     Right

274. 1:05:00

     ... um, which is, you know, often when, when Georgia Power talks about putting downward pressure on rates, they're talking about that additional money that gets paid.

275. 1:05:08

     Is their rate per kilowa- watt hour higher than a residential customer because of these additional needs and demands, or are they paying the same rate as everybody else?

276. 1:05:20

     Um, often they're, they're paying, they're paying, uh, a lot of real-time pricing, so it, it, it really-

277. 1:05:27

     So it may be lower sometimes

278. 1:05:28

     ... yeah, it may be lower if they're using it at, at 2:00 AM on Sunday night, and if they're using it, you know, on a, on a hot day in August at, at 5:00 PM, they're paying a small fortune.

279. 1:05:41

     Okay. I'm gonna recognize the Vice Chairman, uh, Senator Summers for a question. And Senator Ginn, I'm not forgetting you. If you have them, be thinking of them. Thank you. Thank you. Um, can you give us... I mean, are data centers making the bills go up for residential customers?

280. 1:06:02

     Um, in, in our opinion, no. The, the commission has, has, has been working really hard to keep that from happening. Um, I mean, the data centers weren't even a thing until just, like, two and a half years ago. And the new capacity being built to serve these data centers, most of that is, is just starting to be constructed now. Um, there are some data centers, but the big, the big influx we see are data centers that have signed contracts and the, the investment is starting to be made to serve them.

281. 1:06:41

     And that's why this past summer the commission issued an order that said that Georgia Power cannot increase its base rates for the next three years. So the rates are frozen for the next three years as this investment is being made, as these data centers are, are ramping up. So rates won't be able to go up under that. The only exceptions for that are, are storm damage, where there's a lot of... there was a, a big under-recovery of storm damage from hurricanes that's gotta be dealt with.

282. 1:07:14

     Okay.

283. 1:07:14

     And, uh, fuel is, is a separate thing. Now, fuel rates are expected to go down later this, this spring, so...

284. 1:07:22

     A follow-up. Um, it is my understanding that, uh, we, everybody's asking questions about power. One gigawatt's, like, eight Hoover Dams running in a 24-hour period. That's one gigawatt. I got that from, uh, Georgia Power folks. So that's a lot of power. But aren't these data centers that are consuming 500 to a, or maybe one gigawatt, aren't they paying a tremendous amount of millions of dollars up front to, uh, to, to cover what that is that Georgia Power is having to put in place, and then, uh, eventually to have renewable and add to energies?

285. 1:07:57

     Isn't that what all this upfront stuff is about?

286. 1:07:59

     Yeah, I mean, they're, they are paying a lot. You know, they're, they're paying all of that transmission footprint up front, and then they have the minimum bills that are designed to cover, you know, all of the generation. Um, the, the expectation is that, you know, once, once they pay for their incremental costs, which are what is required, anything beyond that, um, can be used to reduce embedded costs. Embedded costs is what everybody else is paying.

287. 1:08:27

     Mm-hmm.

288. 1:08:27

     So if you can reduce embedded costs, then you can, you can have downward pressure on everyone else's rates. And that's what the commission has tried to do in an order. So like I said, the, the next three years' rates are frozen, and then the three years after that, Georgia Power has guaranteed a certain revenue level from data centers. If it's not met, Georgia Power has to eat it. And if it is met, um, if it, if it's exceeded, ratepayers get additional benefits. But simply the floor that they've agreed to, um, should for residential customers result in approximately $8.50 downward pressure on rates.

289. 1:09:06

     Last question. If... You asked, you, you made the statement and, and Chairman Hufstetler's made the statement that he's changed it from data center to large centers. I mean, when you stood up, the first thing you said was large centers, which I totally agree. I think it ought to encompass large centers. And that way, I don't know that we'll have anything else asking for 500 megawatts or one gigawatt. But in reality, though, it covers the spectrum. Would you not agree with that?

290. 1:09:30

     Well, the, yeah, the commission's rule covers all, any customer that's 100 megawatts or more. Um, and the, the Georgia Power would have to, whether they're a data center or any other mega customer, there's a huge, huge capital investment that would have to be made. And so you want to make sure that that doesn't get... No matter who the customer is, you don't want to get stuck on everybody else.

291. 1:09:55

     Right. But I think that's what Senator Summers is trying to get at, though. On that capital cost, they are not charged upfront. You are expecting them to pay it over the course of their usage, and that's why you're guaranteeing minimum monthly guaranteed payments.

292. 1:10:12

     That, that's right. That's right.

293. 1:10:13

     They're not helping build the next Plant Vogtle or paying any of the construction cost of any new coal plant, gas plant, whatever you gotta do to generate this power.

294. 1:10:23

     Right. They're not, they're not prepaying for the generation. But, but when they sign that contract, their bill will cover their share of it.

295. 1:10:31

     Right. But that gen- that cost of that generation would not have been anticipated by Georgia Power but for this projected build-out of data centers.

296. 1:10:42

     That, that's right. That's right. Um-

297. 1:10:44

     Okay. Senator Ginn, thank you for your patience. The floor is yours to ask one, two, or three questions.

298. 1:10:50

     Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, so one of the things that, that, uh- Before I get into the questions, Art, I want to kind of give an update and make sure everybody on the committee is aware of what's transpired in the last month. The, uh, I've been working on a piece of legislation I thought I would be bringing to this committee, and it turns out the, uh, I have, I have a few more, uh, friends in Washington, DC than I thought. The, uh... Right now, uh, data centers have been, uh, kept at bay for being able to run their standby generation outside of 50 hours because of air permitting and so forth.

299. 1:11:25

     The, uh... So all these data centers that are coming in and being built, they're putting enough standby generation on to run their facility without outside power, just in case there's a power interruption or something like that. They've got generation on site. And when you look at them, they, uh, they can only run those generators for about 50 hours due to some air permits and stuff. Well, I, I'm gonna tell you, said they, uh, I don't care who the power supplier is, nobody wants to see, uh, grandma going out in the dark. They, uh, if we get a really cold snout, we get a hot streak, whatever it is, I don't want our, uh, grid going down in Georgia like it did in Texas.

300. 1:12:02

     And so I was working on legislation on that, and one of the things that has come about is, uh, Chris Wright, Secretary of Energy, uh, January 22nd, put out a paper on that. The, uh, and EPA has now followed up with that and says that there is no certain time period, no 50-hour limit for running those generators, which is great for everybody in the country because nobody wants to see anybody lose their grid and lose their system on that. That being said, one of the things that concerns me is where's the PSC fall into, to doing some of that because it's obviously more expensive for them to produce power with their standby generation.

301. 1:12:39

     And when we look at those contracts, there's two things that I want to know about. One is how secure are the contracts? And that may not be a question for you. It may be a question for Georgia Power, said they, uh... But when I look, you know, I, I've been in the utility business. I, I handled all the industrial contracts for Georgia Power Company back in the '80s, said they, uh... I, I been as an engineer for, for Jackson EMC. I've done a lot of different things in the utility business over my life. And I look at it and I'm like, "Okay, how secure is that contract and how enforceable is it?" And that's where, to me, I'd love for, uh, your opinion, and I'd also when, if, if and, oh, later Georgia Power gets up there, I'd love to know what enforcement we have.

302. 1:13:20

     I like the, the concept of the bill. I don't think that it's one that, for us, we're kind of meddling into what the PSC side of st- things is, and I think y'all have got some things on, on the books already over there. The, uh, our job's not to work on rates, and this is one of those things that definitely works on rates. I, I like the protection it offers, and I like the c- fact that PSC's doing this. I'm not sure that, that I like putting it in the state statute because of that rigid thing that happens in there. So for me, uh, can you help me with, with the contracts and how they're enforced?

303. 1:13:53

     Yeah, the, uh-

304. 1:13:53

     Are, are you getting bonding up front or?

305. 1:13:55

     Yeah, the, so the, the con- the, the, the tariff has new provisions for one, you know, longer term contracts. Two, um, it does have requirements for, for security and collateral, and they're, they are pretty robust. Um, I can't right off hand remember how, you know, which of the details are trade secret, um, as far as-

306. 1:14:21

     Just tell them all

307. 1:14:22

     ... how, how Georgia Power has structured them. But they are, they are much more robust than they were before this tariff, um, in terms of putting, putting money up front as a guarantee that, that Georgia Power can go after if the minimum bill is not paid. And then there, there, like I said, there's early termination penalties that are tied to that security, um, so that, that Georgia Power can go after a number of years' worth of, of minimum payments if, if somebody doesn't live up to their usage under the contract.

308. 1:15:03

     Um, enough years that the commission felt confident that, that Georgia Power would be able to take remedial action to deal with, with, uh, you know, how to, how to deal with the capacity and, and, and whatnot. Um, but, you know, as far as the details, I'll... It'd be better to let Georgia Power share the details of their security just so I don't inadvertently reveal something.

309. 1:15:30

     So if, if I can, how would this legislation hinder the PSC if it would or would not? And, and that's really one of the things that to me-

310. 1:15:40

     Yeah. And, and like I said, the, the, the substance of the litigat- the substance of the legislation is, is I think on par with what the commission is already doing. So the initial effects I don't think would be anything. The, the question is, and this is the, what I raised about the evolving industry, is whenever y- whenever you lock in a system, particularly for an industry that's still in some ways in its infancy, I mean, nobody knows exactly how the data center industry's gonna morph over the next two, five, 10 years, um, there is some benefit to having, you know, a regulatory agency with, with flexibility on the ground to, to make changes closer to real time if the industry starts morphing in a way that we're not predicting right now.

311. 1:16:36

     I mean, nobody was predicting this entire industry four years ago, or at least nobody I know was predicting it. Um, so, so that's really the... You know, if you... When you do th- when you do detailed rate making by legislation, it may be fine, um, but you may inadvertently reduce some flexibility that might end up being needed.

312. 1:17:02

     What's the definition of a large load customer now? You know, one that has the right to shop around to-

313. 1:17:08

     Um

314. 1:17:09

     ... an EMC or?

315. 1:17:09

     It's 900, uh, kW, so a little bit less than one megawatt.

316. 1:17:14

     It's less than one megawatt.

317. 1:17:16

     Less than one, yeah.

318. 1:17:17

     We're talking about 100 megawatts for these.

319. 1:17:19

     Right, right.

320. 1:17:19

     So these are 100 times as big as people that right now use so much power they have the right to bid it out, so to speak.

321. 1:17:28

     Yeah.

322. 1:17:28

     Wow.

323. 1:17:29

     Mr. Chairman, a good-sized grocery store is a customer choice load.

324. 1:17:32

     Okay.

325. 1:17:33

     To, uh, like, put that in perspective for you. So there's a, there's a lot more, uh, than just big industry. You know, you think about, okay, you're, wherever you're buying groceries here in Atlanta, you probably was a, would, could've been a customer choice size load. Not necessarily a customer choice because location, you know, you gotta go back to territory sometimes. So that's kind of-

326. 1:17:53

     Okay

327. 1:17:54

     ... so.

328. 1:17:54

     Tom, thank you for being with us. You're always just a wealth of info. Do you have a question? Uh, hang on, uh, Tom, one more question from our pro tem.

329. 1:18:02

     Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a couple questions-

330. 1:18:04

     All right

331. 1:18:04

     ... if that's okay.

332. 1:18:05

     Go ahead.

333. 1:18:06

     Uh, so I think you already said this. The, the rate increases that have been approved by the PSC for the Georgia Power rate increases, they were not, were they or were they not driven by data centers?

334. 1:18:20

     They, they were not. They were not.

335. 1:18:22

     And was it not in fact Vogtle 3 and 4, um, and the runaway inflation we've seen, and then the, the war, the invasion of Ukraine by Russia and the spike in fuel prices?

336. 1:18:37

     That's correct. That's correct.

337. 1:18:39

     That's it.

338. 1:18:39

     And then normal, you know, just inflationary pressures on, on normal operating expenses and capital expenditures.

339. 1:18:47

     And could I follow up?

340. 1:18:49

     Yeah.

341. 1:18:49

     So we're, in my region, I, I live in middle Georgia, and the state has a mega site, and we would love to see a Hyundai-type manufacturer locate in that mega site. Um, if this law passes a- as, as written, and that industry that we were m- able to attract is 100 megawatts or more, would you not, would, would we not be somewhat handcuffed, uh, in trying to attract that industry, uh, the PSC in particular, handcuffed with the contract terms that you, and the process you normally have now?

342. 1:19:35

     Uh, we wouldn't, would we have, we wouldn't have the flexibility we have now to compete with other states that would be certainly trying to attract the same large industry.

343. 1:19:46

     Well, yeah, if, if, if you had legislation that, that provided that, and circumstances changed and you, and you needed to attract some customers to, to get access to using load you've already built, for example, and you're locked in as to how much you can charge them, you might regret it.

344. 1:20:07

     And one, one more question-

345. 1:20:09

     Go ahead

346. 1:20:09

     ... if you don't mind. So it, it just seems to me that if you had a, a customer that was gonna use power at 2:00 A.M. when every, most people are sleeping and not, you know, using so much electricity, but they're using electricity, it seems like it would help balance the power company's load and make it more efficient and economical for the power companies and would have a downward pressure on rates, not an upward pressure, especially if they're paying a tariff and, and paying for so much of the infrastructure and all of that, some of it up front, some of it in the rate over time.

347. 1:20:53

     It actually seems like it would have low- downward pressure on what residential customers pay. Is that, am I missing something or is that-

348. 1:21:02

     Uh, you, you, you're correct. I mean, the, the commission and, and Georgia Power have both tried to structure tariffs to, to... If somebody's gonna use power anyway-

349. 1:21:12

     One more

350. 1:21:12

     ... you can-

351. 1:21:13

     ... 'cause it's, we're missing other events.

352. 1:21:15

     If-

353. 1:21:15

     Okay

354. 1:21:15

     ... if somebody's gonna use power anyway, if you can encourage them to do it at 2:00 A.M. instead of in the middle of the day, everybody's better off because then you can use the cheaper generation sources.

355. 1:21:27

     And do, do you know how Georgia ranks in the nation as far as residential rates, residential power rates?

356. 1:21:35

     In, in terms of rates, um, Georgia, Georgia's pretty good as far as what, what the rate is. Um-

357. 1:21:44

     Do you think it might be accurate to say we're 32nd out of 50, and th- 50 being the lowest, we're 32nd based on the GA-

358. 1:21:53

     That, that sounds about right.

359. 1:21:55

     Okay. Thank you.

360. 1:21:56

     Does any automobile manufacturer in the state of Georgia use 100 megawatts of power?

361. 1:22:02

     Uh, no.

362. 1:22:02

     Not even close? Not even the Kia or the Hyundai?

363. 1:22:07

     No.

364. 1:22:07

     Okay.

365. 1:22:08

     No.

366. 1:22:10

     Thank you. I really wanna hear from Cara Bender 'cause she is against the bill and with the Data Center Coalition. We wanna hear your perspective 'cause all we're hearing is all of our constituents saying, uh, they're for the bill.

367. 1:22:27

     Fair enough. Thank you.

368. 1:22:27

     But educate us so we don't do something that's not wise.

369. 1:22:32

     Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee. I appreciate the opportunity to testify today. As mentioned, my name is Cara Bender, and I'm a director of state policy at the Data Center Coalition. Our members include the leading owners and operators of the digital infrastructure that powers Georgia's 21st century economy, from healthcare and financial services to advanced manufacturing and AI. We agree with the bill intent. The data center industry is committed to paying for its full cost of service for electricity. In fact, a 2024 study out of Virginia, the world's largest data center market, affirmed that costs are currently allocated appropriately across all customers, including data centers, and that the State Corporation Commission is poised with the expertise and processes in place to consider future cost allocations.

370. 1:23:16

     In Georgia, as we just heard, uh, recent PSC actions already provide utilities the tools to allocate costs appropriately across customer classes, um, with those different parameters, uh, surrounding, uh, large load customers above the megawatt threshold. We're seeing this at work. As also mentioned earlier, Georgia Power has been able to freeze rates ac- uh, over the next three years, and they have a- indicated that that is due to, uh, the downward pressure from large lo- large load customers, such as data centers.

371. 1:23:47

     As Georgia evaluates how to manage energy demands, load growth, and costs, we strongly urge the adoption of an end use neutral tariff, rather than a sector-specific approach. To that end, we appreciate the most recent bill substitute that applies to large load customers above 100 megawatts and no longer singles out data centers for disparate treatment. This end use neutral approach ensures that Georgia remains a premier destination for major employers, regardless of industry type. Equitable treatment is a bedrock of utility regulation, and the pace of technological change is rapid.

372. 1:24:20

     Today, the focus is on data centers and AI. Tomorrow, tomorrow it may be industrial pro- processes or energy intensive technologies that we have not even yet imagined. A sector neutral framework also provides a durable policy that does not require statutory updates to capture those new industries and provides the long-term regulatory certainty essential for high capital investment decisions. Nevertheless, we are remaining opposed to the bill, as we believe, as mentioned earlier, the PSC has already taken steps to address call- cost allocations and ensure that large load customers, including data centers, are covering for the infrastructure upgrades and improvements that are associated with this large load growth, in addition to the other parameters that have been defined that ensure that data centers are providing things like minimum dema- demand charges and, uh, signing on to longer contract terms.

373. 1:25:09

     Um, we also suggest that the bill be framed around increased costs that are solely attributable to the electric services to large load customers, rather than those that are substantially related. Otherwise, this approach risks putting cost burdens on large load customers that other costs, co- other customers are still seeing benefits from. I appreciate your consideration, and I welcome any questions.

374. 1:25:29

     Is Microsoft a member of your coalition?

375. 1:25:31

     It is.

376. 1:25:32

     Uh, Google?

377. 1:25:33

     Yes.

378. 1:25:33

     Meta?

379. 1:25:34

     Yes.

380. 1:25:35

     Amazon?

381. 1:25:36

     Yes.

382. 1:25:36

     Oracle?

383. 1:25:37

     Uh, yes.

384. 1:25:38

     Okay, so all of the hyperscalers that are pretty much the only people able to afford to build $10 billion data centers are in your group.

385. 1:25:46

     They are all members, yes.

386. 1:25:47

     Now, what did Microsoft just come out with? I read something in Wall Street Journal that they've agreed they're basically gonna pay their own way or not gonna take tax incentives. Could you recall what their pledge was?

387. 1:25:59

     They have established principles, but I'm not able to rattle those off from the top of my head-

388. 1:26:03

     I understand

389. 1:26:03

     ... unfortunately, Mr. Chair.

390. 1:26:05

     Yeah. All right, questions from committee members? Yes, Senator, you're recognized.

391. 1:26:09

     Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, oh. Um, you mentioned that the PSC is already taking steps to ensure. What are those?

392. 1:26:19

     Uh, I believe-

393. 1:26:20

     And how?

394. 1:26:21

     Sure. Thank you for the question. I believe that was addressed by the, the previous, um, gentleman-

395. 1:26:25

     Okay. Thank you

396. 1:26:25

     ... who testified before me. Um, so he outlined some of those terms that have been established as part of the tariff, including minimum demand charges that are required, uh, for lo- the customers above 100 megawatts, longer contract terms, um, in addition to, um, I believe there was also collateral requirements, uh, outlined in that tariff as well.

397. 1:26:45

     So how are you ensuring it? Is, like, there's data? Is there data? Is there a report? What, what... How are you monitoring it?

398. 1:26:54

     Um, I, I'm not sure if I'm understanding the question, but I know that these are already rules being promulgated by the PSC that would apply to, um, large load customers above 100 megawatts, and as the gentleman, um, had outlined, that largely is applying to the data centers, given that they are, um, often those large load customers that exceed or meet that 100 megawatt threshold.

399. 1:27:20

     Any follow-up? Okay.

400. 1:27:22

     I, I followed with the PSCs.

401. 1:27:22

     Any other questions?

402. 1:27:25

     I'm good.

403. 1:27:25

     Okay.

404. 1:27:26

     So you can answer.

405. 1:27:26

     Thank you for being with us.

406. 1:27:28

     Thank you.

407. 1:27:28

     Thank you.

408. 1:27:29

     Feel free to submit any information you have to us that you, you might think will help us as we finalize this legislation. All right, uh, let's do hear from Georgia Power. Aaron Mitchell.

409. 1:27:45

     Here we go.

410. 1:27:45

     Aaron's one of my favorite witnesses. He is very thorough and knowledgeable. Feel free to ask him anything you want. Tell us your views on this. You're kind of at the center of the storm since, uh, you're the only sort of data center power provider that's regulated by the PSC.

411. 1:28:01

     Right.

412. 1:28:01

     So just sort of educate us as much as you can, and tell us why you're against the bill.

413. 1:28:05

     Yes, sir. Um, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks for the kind remarks. Um, members of the committee, I will answer any and all questions that you have as well. Um, I'm Aaron Mitchell. I'm senior vice president of strategic growth for Georgia Power. Our job is to focus on our largest customers, not just data centers, our largest customers, to ensure that we are appropriately gathering the information from them, appropriately contracting and pricing them, and then we do some internal follow-up to ensure that we're delivering to our customers to meet their large power demands and their timelines.

414. 1:28:38

     Um, I'd like to r- respectfully correct a couple of things that Senator Hufstetler, um, mentioned at the onset, is that these large customers are only paying a portion of the costs to serve, and that is, is flatly untrue. These customers are paying all costs- That we incur to serve them. Um, that includes, um, operational costs. That includes capital construction costs. That includes maintenance costs. They're paying for generator to meter.

415. 1:29:09

     Uh, and more so to illustrate, um, the fact that substantially they are paying that in a three-year period alone, uh, Mr. Bond spoke about it, um, in the agreement that we reached with the commission in December. They ordered us to provide benefits to customers that equate to $102 per year over that 29, 2030, uh, and 2031, um, time period. And what that equates to is these large customers will pay $1.6 billion in excess more than the cost to serve to provide those benefits to customers.

416. 1:29:50

     So emphatically, um, I'd like the committee to hear that these customers are paying for all costs and then some to ensure that benefits are, are being provided to all other customers. One other small, um, point of note, just to find interesting, from 2011 to 2024, residential usage increased annually by, um,

417. 1:30:20

     1.7 billion kilowatt hours over the year. So that's a 6% increase just in residential, um, usage. Our, our increase has, uh, or our, our demands, uh, from our customers has certainly increased just, um, an anecdotal, uh, bit of data to back up the, the increase there. Um, one note, while I haven't seen, uh, the substitute, I'd like to make a comment on the change in the language from data centers to, um, all customers.

418. 1:30:54

     Um, the senator's focus had been data centers. Um, we had, uh, concerns, as you heard from me last year, about codifying, um, rate making. Um, similar concerns shared from the last two, uh, witnesses here. But the expansion of that, uh, and the unden- intended consequences, uh, of that bill now expanding to the state's economic growth engine, uh, manufacturers and industrial customers is concerning.

419. 1:31:24

     Um, not because we disagree with the intent, and the intent is that all customers should pay their fair share, especially large customers, uh, that are bringing large investments. It is merely that a change so quick, so fast, um, on something that is so complex like rate making could have significant and substantial impacts on the real job creators that Georgia has worked so hard to be, uh, 12 years in a row, the top state to do business. An additional consideration we would urge the committee, uh, to consider.

420. 1:31:57

     I don't want to belabor all of the r- large load requirements. Mr. Bond did a fantastic job of running through those. Um, but Senator Hufstetler was right, um, before that his-- this bill was initially published in, um, or issued in August of 2024. The company began working with the commission as we saw load increases and large customers coming to the state, uh, on these rules, uh, and regulation changes.

421. 1:32:28

     And the commission ordered in January of 2025, uh, that we were to implement these additional protections for customers to ensure that these large loads are not passing on costs to existing customers, and in particular, our residential customers. So I'm going to rattle them off real quick because I want to highlight a couple of them and maybe answer, uh, Senator Walker, you had a question on, uh, performance security, I believe. So, um, longer contract terms, those are minimum for, for customers above 100 megawatts.

422. 1:33:00

     Those are minimum of 15 years. We've signed 20, uh, and we would sign longer. Um, minimum bills. So the minimum bill deserves a, a moment of pause. Uh, we calculate the minimum bill specific to each and every customer. That minimum bill looks at all costs across the system, as I spoke earlier, the transmission, the generation, what's on the ground now, and what we will need to build in 2035. That customer gets their portion of what we will build into the future baked into this minimum bill.

423. 1:33:34

     The minimum bill is static... Uh, uh, not static over time. It responds to the real-time costs on our system, and the reason for that is we don't want any other customer to pay for those costs. More so, uh, we're under commission order, which carries the full weight of the law, that we're ordered not to pass those costs to any other customer. That minimum bill must be paid each and every month, whether or not the customer uses one kilowatt hour of electricity.

424. 1:34:04

     If they're late, if they use less, if they're in a maintenance period, they're going to pay the minimum bill if their usage charges are not higher than the minimum bill. This is the one of the main engines, uh, of these rules that the commission has ordered us to follow that ensure no costs are being passed on to any other customer. Um, we also require termination amounts. If a customer-- And we understand business needs change.

425. 1:34:35

     If a customer were to unfortunately need to terminate, uh, a contract early, they owe substantial amounts of electricity. And while Mr. Bond was right, some, some of those amounts are confidential with the customer. I can tell you, uh, orders of magnitude are hundreds of millions or billions, plural, o- of dollars that those customers would owe Georgia Power to offset the costs, um, that we incurred to serve that customer. The performance security amount Should, uh, something happen financially, um, to the company and they become less financially stable, the performance security amount is tied to the highest number in the contract, which is that termination amount.

426. 1:35:20

     So hundreds of millions or billions. Um, we've heard from commission staff, uh, and their consultant, we've also done some looks around the country that these are the mo- most stringent, uh, contract requirements, maybe the most expensive, uh, and the most secure contracts in the, in the form of protection to all other customers. The last piece, um, I'll give some context on i- Mr. Bond mentioned the upfront payment of costs. We build substations on site.

427. 1:35:51

     We have transmission lines on site for these customers, big transformers. That's required to be upfront before they receive their first kilowatt hour of service. The magnitude of those costs are tens of millions to hundreds of millions of dollars depending on the size, uh, of that customer. So all that to say, our contracts are robust, uh, and they are protecting all customers. Um, I hate that Senator Albers left because when I testified last year, um, I talked about the benefits that we'd be providing and, uh, rightfully so and respectfully, he challenged me to say, um, these are my words, not his, but talk is cheap and, and actions speak louder than words.

428. 1:36:39

     And so, um, I'll follow up and make sure he hears that. But, um, the good news is we've been busy. Um, we are busy delivering on those commitments that we've made and in fact, last year, uh, we worked with the commission to take a couple of actions that are already delivering the benefits that these contracts and service of large loads are providing to all customers. We froze the rates as Mr. Bond, um, spoke about earlier.

429. 1:37:10

     Uh, those rates are frozen till at least December 31st, 2028. That is because we are growing the system. There are additional revenues from customers on the system, and these large customers are helping us provide those benefits to other customers. As you all know, um, prices still continue to rise, commodity prices, et cetera. Uh, for any business, we're not immune to that. And so that should illustrate to you the benefits of serving large growth, and we're able to hold rates flat.

430. 1:37:41

     In addition, in, in December, we agreed to provide that, uh, additional value of $102, uh, over the years '29, '30 and '31, and that's $102 a year in savings, uh, to customers again, because we are able to serve, uh, these large customers. Um, that, uh, one more, we're, we're not finished. Um, as indicated by Mr. Bond as well, this month in February, we'll make a couple of filings with the commission, a storm filing, and a fuel filing that collectively will reduce rates for customers.

431. 1:38:18

     Not just savings. Rates will go down beginning in June of this year. And so we've, uh, we've been putting actions to our words. Um, we want you to understand that the infrastructure, the, the structure, the market, the rules, um, the way that the commission has ordered us, uh, to collect costs from the customers that are causing the costs, is providing benefit, um, to all customers. And I should note th- to give context, this is all being done at a time where utilities are increasing rates across the country.

432. 1:38:57

     You can't, um... We, we study a lot of articles on other utilities. Uh, you can't open an, an article, um, in a given week without seeing, um, rate pressure because of large loads. That is not true in Georgia, and I hope I've articulated that, uh, for you. And the actions that we've taken under order of the commission, uh, illustrate that. Other utilities just in 2025 alone have requested increases for more than $18 billion.

433. 1:39:30

     That's just requests in 2025. Now I've seen some other articles recently that say that could be as high as $30 billion. Again, I wanna bring you back, not at Georgia Power. Our rate increase last year was $0, and we maintained flat, uh, and froze those rates for three years. So I belabor a bit to illustrate that the construct that, um, this body set up many, many years ago for the, um, rates to be set by a team of experts, Mr.

434. 1:40:03

     Bond and his team at the Public Service Commission overseen and approved, uh, there is working in Georgia. I, I think, um, we are not as lucky, others are not as lucky in other states as we're seeing these rate pressures, um, go up. And so we would just say that, uh, while the intent of this bill is, um, everything I just described, I think the outcome of this bill e- endangers the ability for Georgia Power and the Public Service Commission to continue to deliver the results that I just articulated and the benefits to all other customers.

435. 1:40:42

     Because have you heard-- As you've heard today, I'm very impressed with, um, the questions that you guys are asking related to rate making. It's very complex. Um, and so a well-intended action may very well handcuff the commission and definitely the company in the way that we price, um, uh, contracts for these large customers. And we're doing so, I think you heard some from the last speaker, um- That, that should cause concern.

436. 1:41:13

     I think, um, Senator Brass asked earlier about litigation, uh, and challenges, and I do think the unintended consequence, uh, of, uh, legislating a very, uh, complex issue, uh, could bring some of those to light and endanger our ability to continue to deliver what we think is a bright future for rates in Georgia, um, and benefits beyond those that we've committed to and articulated, um, here today. So-

437. 1:41:42

     I'm gonna ask you just a few questions 'cause I know the hour's late.

438. 1:41:45

     Yes, sir.

439. 1:41:48

     Um, what happens if one of these companies you've contracted with for 15 or 20 years goes bankrupt in five years?

440. 1:41:57

     We collect the termination amount from them.

441. 1:42:00

     Do they post, post that as a bond, or put it in a bank account, or how do you collect it from bankruptcy court?

442. 1:42:06

     Letters of credit. Uh, sometimes we would, uh, consider surety bonds depending on the source of those. Um, if it's some of the, uh, the most financially stable companies on the planet, like you mentioned earlier, a few, um, parent guarantees would suffice, but not unlimited amounts of parent guarantees. And so we would call on those collateral amounts, um, in the event of a bankruptcy, uh, to fund the costs that we've contracted with.

443. 1:42:36

     And in your most recent, what is it, five-year plan or 10-year plan for-

444. 1:42:42

     For the IRP-

445. 1:42:43

     Yeah

446. 1:42:43

     ... Integrated Resource Plan, it's a 20-year plan.

447. 1:42:45

     Okay. Uh, no, but the one you submitted to PSC. Y'all-

448. 1:42:48

     Oh, rate, rate case?

449. 1:42:49

     Yeah.

450. 1:42:49

     Rate plan is a three-year cycle.

451. 1:42:51

     Three year. Are you planning on building new, uh, power generating facilities during that time period?

452. 1:42:58

     We are.

453. 1:42:58

     What are you gonna build?

454. 1:43:00

     Um, so the commission just approved in December 10, 10 gigawatts of new generation. About half of that is, um, new natural gas combined cycles.

455. 1:43:13

     Yeah.

456. 1:43:13

     About half of it's batteries and some PPAs. Um, prior to that, the commission approved three- just over three gigawatts of new generation that's being built right now. Plant Yates out in Newnan is getting three new combustion turbines. Uh, those are about 400, 450 megawatts a piece. Uh, and then we have, um, you know, a, a over a gigawatt of 1,000 megawatts of battery energy storage systems that are located in different areas of the state.

457. 1:43:40

     What's the cost of that? W- we'll just go with the Newnan ones, those three-

458. 1:43:45

     Uh-

459. 1:43:45

     ... turbines that you're building. What, what kind of capital construction cost are we looking at? I can't imagine the scale.

460. 1:43:51

     I don't know that number off the top of my head, nor if it's public. But I will tell you, I think the public number for what the commission, uh, just approved, uh, in December i- in all told, um, amounts is north of $15 billion, uh, for all 10,000 megawatts.

461. 1:44:11

     'Cause that's our fear.

462. 1:44:14

     Yeah.

463. 1:44:14

     That we go spend $15 billion for power generation, and that industry goes by moose, uh-

464. 1:44:20

     Yeah

465. 1:44:20

     ... or they all go bankrupt, or we move on to-

466. 1:44:23

     Yeah

467. 1:44:23

     ... some other type of quantum computing or something, you know? Um-

468. 1:44:27

     Understood

469. 1:44:27

     ... and then we're stuck with that unless your s-

470. 1:44:29

     Still have power

471. 1:44:30

     ... your, uh, you know, security bonds and all that stuff pays off, I guess. Um-

472. 1:44:35

     Yeah. A- a- and that's not the only backstop. That's to help offset the cost. We, we can do other things like retire some units earlier. Um, we could sign up another customer. Um, you know, we, we buy power through power purchase agreements from-

473. 1:44:51

     Yeah

474. 1:44:51

     ... entities. Those roll off every five, 10 years, and so we don't have to renew those.

475. 1:44:56

     All right.

476. 1:44:56

     So it's not just a, um, a one or a zero that, that those are sunk costs. Um, the units we're building are, um, the most efficient state-of-the-art equipment around, and so they will help all customers-

477. 1:45:10

     Got it

478. 1:45:10

     ... uh, and be more efficient.

479. 1:45:12

     What happens if a, uh, data center locates in a territory that's an EMC has?

480. 1:45:20

     Um, it is-

481. 1:45:21

     Like-

482. 1:45:21

     It, it is customer choice. Uh, there are some, um, maybe some outliers there, but all utilities, if it's above that megawatt kind of threshold, utilities can compete to serve, um, those. Georgia Power, uh, for quite a while now has focused on our own territory related to these large loads because, um, one, there, there are large loads, uh, a plenty, uh, in our territory. And then a few questions earlier about what happens if we serve these large loads, can we still provide economic development?

483. 1:45:57

     Um, and that's a core tenet that, you know, Georgia Power for 120 or 140 years has been about economic development partnership with the state. We will not sacrifice the ability to continue to grow the state, uh, or local communities or jobs through adding new manufacturers, um, or industries to the state. So we're planning for all of that, not just one.

484. 1:46:21

     There's a lot of conversation in the legislature that these, uh, data centers might be a boon to rural communities, largely for property tax revenues. Most of those are served by EMCs. And I'm just wondering, they would not be subject to the same rules and regulations that Georgia Power is because PSC regulates you, right?

485. 1:46:44

     That's correct.

486. 1:46:44

     Do you know what they're doing? Have they entered into contracts or deals?

487. 1:46:49

     Um, I, I don't. I, I do know that several data centers are served by EMCs or municipalities. Um, I'm unaware of their contract details or requirements.

488. 1:46:58

     Okay.

489. 1:46:59

     They don't have a bottleneck.

490. 1:47:02

     All right. You've been great. Uh, we got a whole bunch more questions, but this meeting's run longer than we want it to. I, I wanna know, do you know why Georgia is so attractive to the data centers? Why do they want to go to Northern Virginia and Georgia instead of going to Alabama and, you know, Arizona for that matter?

491. 1:47:20

     Act- I actually heard a data center, uh, representative speak in a forum the other day, so I will parrot a little bit-

492. 1:47:27

     Okay

493. 1:47:27

     ... of what he said, uh, and also what Georgia Power believes. So Georgia, 12 years running, top state to do business. I think that speaks for itself. Um, that has yielded, uh, Fortune 500 companies, lots of headquarters coming to the state. Um, I have learned over the course of dealing with these data centers that those industries, us, our, in our day jobs, uh, corporate America here, um, are bringing the need for data to be located next to the use.

494. 1:48:00

     Um, so large cloud computing. Um, in addition to that, you have the advent of artificial intelligence. Um, there is a great business environment for data centers, just like, um, any industry here as well. Um, you're right, they provide, can provide significant tax benefit, uh, to a community that welcomes them. And then as well, I think not just Georgia Power, but the EMCs and the mun- municipalities as mentioned earlier, um, Georgia has a great electrical infrastructure.

495. 1:48:35

     Um-

496. 1:48:36

     Mm-hmm

497. 1:48:36

     ... and it's not just any singular, um, entity, though w- we think we do a great job at Georgia Power. We all co-own the g- the, uh, transmission system. It's an integrated transmission system. It's one of a kind, no other state has it, and we don't, we don't compete there. We work together to ensure that we have efficient investment to serve all customers. That makes us unique because the costs that each of, uh, the utilities incur, um, are shared.

498. 1:49:06

     We use those shared just like the interstate, um, there. And, uh, the infrastructure is sufficient. So we've had two winter storms-

499. 1:49:16

     Mm-hmm

500. 1:49:16

     ... in the last two weeks. Um, I'm happy to say that the state of Georgia maintained reliability. Uh, Georgia Power did not have to turn customers off. We did not declare an emergency. The state of Florida declared stage three, uh, in their emergency chart. Um, so we have robust infrastructure on the electrical side, and as Mr. Bond mentioned, um, our rates are really competitive. Um, we've heard people make the comment that Georgia's in the top, um, five for worst prices.

501. 1:49:51

     I put that, say we're number... That, that accusation would say- ... we're 45 out of 50 states. That's not true. Georgia's 17, um, in the ranking of most cost-effective rates, uh, across the country. So I think, uh, collectively, uh, that has attracted, um, data centers as well as businesses here.

502. 1:50:13

     Okay. Ms. Bender, are you still with us? Anything to add on why your data center coalition likes Georgia so much, or did he parrot you pretty good?

503. 1:50:26

     Certainly gave me the opportunity to respond as well. Um, I think he covered a lot of the reasons why Georgia is such an attractive place for data center owners and operators. Um, there are a lot of things that go into consideration when, um, our member companies are deciding on where to locate, um, availability and cost of land, availability and cost of power, and more frequently, um, speed to being able to power up. But of course also, uh, latency and being near the, these companies that rely on data center infrastructure is a huge part of that workforce. Um, all the, the folks who are, um, providing the construction and operations and maintenance for data centers.

504. 1:51:02

     Um, and generally, the tax and regulatory climate, um, being favorable to industry as well is, is very important, um-

505. 1:51:09

     Other than the cost of all the servers and computers and the electronics in the data center, is your largest cost the power?

506. 1:51:18

     It's a, a huge component of costs.

507. 1:51:20

     Yeah.

508. 1:51:20

     Um, stu- studies have shown it's, um, 40 to 60% of operating costs for, for data centers.

509. 1:51:25

     I thought that was a lot of it. Okay, thank you all. Uh, we've, we've had all we can handle for one day. There are many of you on this list that, uh, we love and want to hear everything you got to say, and you're more local than some of these. Need you to keep in touch, 'cause we'll give you another chance to talk before we take action. Uh, most of the remainders, all of the remaining people are in favor of this bill. I'm not shutting you down, but you got an author that, uh, and sponsor and our rules chairman that are all kind of pushing this ball forward, so we'll probably be taking some kind of action.

510. 1:51:57

     We will, uh, but later. We're gonna be meeting again Thursday afternoon. Um, we're not gonna be discussing data centers on Thursday afternoon. Uh, we're gonna be talk, going back and talking about certificate of need program, back to the healthcare regulatory world-

511. 1:52:12

     Told you

512. 1:52:13

     ... uh, on that, uh, meeting. So look forward to everybody getting ready.

513. 1:52:18

     Mr. Chairman, if I could-

514. 1:52:19

     Uh, you want to conclude? I'd love to have you-

515. 1:52:21

     Well, well, there's a lot I would like to respond to, but I can respond to the next meeting if you want me to. I've...

516. 1:52:27

     Okay. I think that might be best.

517. 1:52:29

     Okay.

518. 1:52:29

     Um, we, y- you know, it's, I want everybody to be heard, and I want everybody to have adequate notice what's coming. Um, anytime we do a committee sub, I try my very best to have that available 24 hours in advance. You will see on my meeting notices the LC number, and I will always tell you what bill we're talking about. If it's committee sub, it'll say it. Obviously, all of you are savvy enough to know how to go online and get those, but we will have a stack of them in my office in 432, uh, day before the meeting.

519. 1:53:03

     Whenever I put out the notice the meeting, I generally have the sub, and so we're not gonna try to blindside anybody, let you have time to be here. This one today, uh, has been sitting on my desk for a while that, uh, we didn't act on, but it's, uh... I want to invite as much input as possible so that we get it right. And, uh, Mr. Pro Tem, we welcome any questions that you have. I didn't mean to cut you off. Sometimes we just have to let everybody go, 'cause I was worried about, um, some, some people that...

520. 1:53:35

     I knew I was about to start leaving people to go to some receptions. But we're gonna... We thoroughly, uh, study it, and I'm glad to have you on the committee. Thank you, everybody, for being here today. We are adjourned.

521. 1:53:44

     Thank you.