House Higher Education Committee, February 11, 2026 Video: https://vimeo.com/1163991543 (a timestamp t plays at https://vimeo.com/1163991543#t=s) Page: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-02-11/house-higher-education This is a machine transcript of the General Assembly's video, made by a speech-recognition model. It is not an official record and can mishear words, names, and numbers. Speakers are not identified. The video is the record: every timestamp links to the moment it plays. [0:12:45] It's a yes or a no. [0:14:00] Uh, ladies and gentlemen, our, our chairman is, uh, on his way. He's running a couple of minutes late, so we're gonna stand at ease for just a few minutes. Just sit tight if you'll bear with us for a few minutes. [0:24:28] Uh, good afternoon, everyone. Thank you for the, uh, consideration. Sorry to get us started late. I had a, uh, conflict to, uh, present our Next Gen 911 amendment, uh, in public safety. And I thank the chairman for, uh, taking me early and getting me out fast. We're gonna call the meeting of the, uh, House Higher Education meeting to order at this time. We have a number of bills on the agenda, uh, this afternoon. Um, some, some that we're looking at from last year, some that are, um, uh, uh, the first time we've seen. [0:24:59] Um, in order to do that, I'm gonna try to c- accommodate as many folks as possible. I have two, I have two competing interests that need to, to, um, get moving. Um, so I'm gonna go in, in order, uh, so we get ready. Uh, Chairman Hawkins, if you'll come up and tell us about 419 again. We've heard it. Uh, we'll, we'll try to get through that quick. And then, uh, Representative Holcomb, I'll get you out so you can get to your next meeting. Uh... [0:25:25] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, HB 419 is the same bill that you heard last year that passed out of this committee, and just the anchor drug it down and we ran out of time. Uh, this applies to the university and the technical schools. It's an opioid, uh, Narcan dispenser placed next to an AED. Uh, also relieves the universities of, of all liability, even if they run out, they're not responsible for that. And it does not create any financial burden on them. This, this would p- be paid for by community, uh, funds and donations. [0:26:00] I did one of the visits at Augusta this past summer. They showed me the one they have down there for the University of Augusta, where our medical school is, nursing school, dental school, and all. And they have a single unit. And, uh, works very well. So that's my presentation, Mr. Chairman. [0:26:19] Uh, we have a couple questions. Who's number 25? Yes, sir. [0:26:23] Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Chairman Hawkins, for bringing this. Uh, this, Chairman Martin, this means a lot to our community in Hall County, and, and we've been affected by this. And, uh, I made the motion on this last year, and at the appropriate time I'd love to repeat that motion. [0:26:37] We have, we have another question, and I'll come back to you. Uh, Representative Whitmore. [0:26:42] Likewise, Mr. Chairman, I'd be happy to second the motion, uh, made by my colleague, uh, down over there. [0:26:47] Well, y'all, y'all seem to have that worked out. I have no further questions. Um, I recognize the gentleman for a motion. [0:26:55] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I move this bill be passed. [0:26:58] And Whipor- [0:26:59] Second. [0:27:00] We have a motion and a second to assign them due pass. Just for clarification, we're working off LC 610188S. Is there any discussion? Discussion of the motion. The gentleman motion, motion. The gentleman's motion is this moves forward to the Rules Committee with a due pass recommendation. I see no further discussion. All those in favor say aye. [0:27:20] Aye. [0:27:20] Any opposed, no. We're gone. [0:27:23] Thank you. [0:27:23] Thank you. [0:27:24] Thank you, committee. Mr. Chairman. [0:27:26] Uh, and, and for the public, we, we had that before, so, um, I don't think we had any... We did actually have someone signed up to, to do that. Mr. Brilow, I'm, I'm thinking you got what you were after, so you're good, right? [0:27:39] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [0:27:39] Yes, sir. All right. Thank you very much. Gentleman knows when he has a winner. There you go. I, I appreciate it. Uh, Representative Holcomb, we're gonna get to you. [0:27:52] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, uh, members of the committee, I present House Bill 385, and this is likely familiar to, uh, everyone. It passed committee last year, and the idea behind it is really quite simple. It's for those that have unused Hope credits. They could then apply them to graduate school or professional school. They would have to pay the difference between the undergraduate rate and the professional or graduate rate. But the idea being to keep more of our talent, which is one of the governor's goals and our state's goals, in state, would incentivize people to attend graduate school here instead of going out of state, and there is a much greater probability that those individuals would then stay here long term. [0:28:37] Um, just as additional context, it was passed, uh, by both chambers in 2024 but was vetoed. However, there were two parts to it added to the Senate, or in the Senate, so the idea this year is to try to keep this part, um, which of course we can't predict what will happen should it move, but to try to keep this part clean. And the numbers you have, um, in front of you, it's, it's relatively speaking a bargain. Um, they have estimated utilization rates of what it might entail from the low end of 5%, because not everybody wants to go on. [0:29:16] Uh, some people are perfectly happy with getting their bachelor's and, and then taking a break. But on the low end, a 5% estimated utilization would be about $5.8 million, and then on the high end, a 25% utilization would be about $28 million. So be happy to answer any questions if there are any. [0:29:35] Gentlemen, um, are there any questions for the gentleman? Num- number 17. Is it Whipor? You, you, you didn't work things out with the minority whip there? Representative Holcomb, I'm gonna leave that to you two. Yes, sir. [0:29:48] Mr. Chairman, at the appropriate time, I'd like to introduce [0:29:49] Yes, yes sir. We'll get right back to that. [0:29:50] Thank you. [0:29:51] Any, any further questions? I, I, I just, uh, the, the chair wants to, uh, if, if I can have some latitude just to remind folks that if there are hope hours available, there are students now that when they have them available, believe it or not, people enjoy, uh, the college life. I've heard, uh, from, from the pres- uh, now I'm, I'm all ... I'm, I'm joking sorta and serious, uh, as well that, that people sometimes try to do a, a, a fifth fall in Athens. I'm, I'm told they, they enjoy it. Super seniors, as it's referred to. But the, the point is that these folks may actually be using these hours for something that is not as productive as they may be here. [0:30:28] So I think the gentleman's given them an opportunity to do that. With that, no further questions, Whip Park, you're recognized. [0:30:35] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, motion to do pass HB 385. [0:30:38] Second. [0:30:40] I have a motion to do pass. Just again for clarification, LC 610392. I have a motion and a second. This do pass to the Rules Committee wi- um, next, or this move to the Rules Committee with do pass recommendation. Is there a discussion? Discussion on the motion? I see no lights. I hear no discussion. We have no speakers. All those in favor say aye. [0:31:02] Aye. [0:31:02] Any opposed, no. Thank you, uh, and I understand you have a, another commitment. Thank you for being here with us. Okay. [0:31:26] Up here? [0:31:26] Y- but, y- wherever you're comfortable, ma'am. Wherever the lady's comfortable. Just give, give me a press of the button there so I know which number to ... Chair Dempsey, you're recognized to present. [0:31:39] Well, thank you. Thank you. So, um, many of you have heard this measure several times. This is the sixth year- ... we're gonna try to do this again. It's had different, um, routes. Uh, I will tell you that it began back in 2019 and 2020, and, um, did a little, little travel through things. Uh, we hit COVID, and different things happened. Um, actually, this is the seventh session that we've talked about it. I'm sorry, I shorted us one. Um, Chairman Martin has signed on it a couple of times. [0:32:11] But today I bring you, um, HB 541, and this is to allow another school to get a tuition equalization grant. One school. It's very specific, very tightly drafted to make sure it will not open the door widely for many others to come through it, but it will help address the huge shortage that we still have as a state dealing with nurses in, in our medical fields. So it will just simply amend that. [0:32:42] Chamberlain is the school, the one school, and all that they do actually is nursing. They have a very, very diverse nursing population. It's often a second career or someone who is juggling a job as well, and they're able to, um, taper it to make it fit exactly those students. They have the ability to, um, draft, have the courses that are necessary in the right place and time. It does not take away from our existing nursing schools because those do not deal with the non-traditional students at this level. [0:33:15] It's very unique. In 2024, Chamberlain sat over 403 nursing students for the licensing exam. They came in second in our state, just right behind Emory. They're doing good work, and they're helping us address the critical shortage. And as I said, there are two campuses now today, um, in Atlanta, and the other one is new in Stockbridge as well. Sandy Springs, I'm sorry, not Atlanta. Sandy Springs. It's been existing since 2012 with over 1,300 in students, and Stockbridge, although new, has over 500. [0:33:50] It is a great program that y'all have heard a lot about, and I would ask for your favorable support or take any questions. [0:33:59] Well, Chair Lady Dempsey, about two minutes into your presentation, you didn't have any, and now you have four. So the- [0:34:05] Four what? [0:34:05] Four questions. So I- [0:34:07] Oh, okay. [0:34:08] Yeah, you, you, you, you sure, you sure got with your partner down there next, next door and, and- [0:34:12] Okay [0:34:12] ... Representative Burnough, you're recognized for a question. [0:34:14] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, for this school, is this still the one that's gonna be in, uh, Stockbridge? [0:34:23] There is one campus there, um, as well as the one in Sandy Springs, and they are, those are the two physical campuses in our state. [0:34:32] Okay. And once again, I'm just putting this out on the record because Clayton State is right near there, and I know you've told me before that it doesn't affect them, but I do know that there are only so many teachers in tha- this particular field. So I do want to say so my people will know that I do think that it will have an effect on Clayton State. Thank you. [0:34:54] Well, and I thank you for that concern. [0:35:00] Number, uh, Whip Stinson. [0:35:04] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, Chair Lady Dempsey, if you will, can you, uh, expound a little more about, uh, your statement on this particular institution of higher learning focused solely on nursing? We have, uh, other institutions represented here today, like Fort Valley State, uh, Savannah State, uh, and Fort Valley just recently started a nursing program. So if you will, can you kind of expound a little more about how this particular bill, uh, only impacts, uh, the reason it only impacts that particular institution because that school deals solely with nursing, right? [0:35:40] That's right. That- [0:35:40] Well, yeah, let, let me, let me try to just, and I'll try to keep us moving 'cause we're not- Go back and forth. This is strategic. This would go to schools where it's private schools. So the, it goes to private school students. The schools that you were talking about, part of our HBCUs that are in our public system, it doesn't affect them because they are, they are taken care of and funded through our budget. [0:36:06] Gotcha. [0:36:08] The, that's what we're trying to do is limit the, the private schools. We do that, um, on, on an annual basis for, for these things for proprietary and non-proprietary schools. [0:36:17] And Mr. Chairman, I primarily just wanna make sure that our audience, uh- [0:36:20] Yeah. Oh, yes, ma'am. I'm sor- I'm sorry, Representative. [0:36:22] Yeah. [0:36:23] Yes, ma'am. [0:36:23] So the student, yeah. [0:36:24] You, yes, ma'am. I'm so sorry. I, I should have- [0:36:26] Can I say a little, can we say a little something? [0:36:27] Yeah. [0:36:28] Yeah. And- [0:36:28] Okay. So it is specifically only for nursing. That is all that they teach, and that is all that they can teach, um, in this grant proposal. It's very tightly drawn, very limiting, very high standards. They have to be brick-and-mortar here in Georgia. We addressed a school similar to this last year that did pass. It came through a Senate bill. It does not take away from our other institutions because these are non-traditional students that would not be able to go to any of our other schools actually and get it done in a timely manner. [0:37:05] This is almost like, it's almost like a manufacturing industry right now who has the right product at the right moment to build something. This can be tailored and addressed specifically for students that are needed at that time to expedite their course to get them onto taking that nursing exam and working in our hospitals and doctors' offices all across our state. [0:37:29] Okay. Thank you. [0:37:30] Mm-hmm. Thank you. [0:37:32] Uh, Representative Park. [0:37:34] Yes. Um, thank you, Mr. Chair, and, um, thank you, um, for the bill. Uh, my question is about the college itself. Um, so the college is all nursing. I'm, I'm very familiar with the college, but just, um, to make sure I'm understanding, what levels of degrees does Chamberlain College offer? [0:37:57] So they offer, um... Let me just check and make sure. I wanna look at my notes to make sure that I'm not misleading you at all. And I really was more focused on the bill this time, if you wanna know the truth, instead of as much of the history, 'cause I know y'all are tired of hearing about it after all these years. Um, but they will offer the, um, the credentials to help the students, um, reach that... I think it's a... I'm not sure. Could I ask someone? Could I phone a friend? [0:38:23] Yeah, I was like- [0:38:23] To make sure [0:38:24] ... can we phone a friend? [0:38:27] I think it's a BS. [0:38:27] Or is it associate level? [0:38:29] It is a BS. It is. [0:38:30] Associate. [0:38:31] So we're training, so these are people, um, who are going into nursing school to become RNs- [0:38:37] Yes [0:38:38] ... and not, um, not that there's anything wrong, but, like, is this not LPN? This is- [0:38:43] Nothing else [0:38:43] ... specifically RN. Okay. [0:38:45] Specifically, and not anything more than that. [0:38:47] Right. Not VPN and all that. [0:38:48] That's the stuff. [0:38:48] Okay. [0:38:48] It's very- [0:38:49] Thank you [0:38:49] ... tight. [0:38:51] Thank you. [0:38:53] Representative Park. [0:38:57] Chairman, thank you. Um, thanks for expanding the pipeline for nurses. I guess this, this is what it's doing. Are we including any other colleges, not just HBCUs, but it's specifically for Chamberlain? So if there are private colleges that wanna, um, have nursing courses as well, they can't, they don't qualify? [0:39:19] At, and I will tell you, it's a pretty rigorous process. Remember I said I've done this for seven years. So to, to meet that is pretty tight. There are 35 schools that exist today that do get tuition equalization grants. All this is, is allowing a student to get $367 a quarter in their pocket or 550 a semester. It helps. It helps just, um, the expense of a private school, gives them a little more to help encourage and get them on the pathway to work. [0:39:53] Thank you. [0:39:55] Do you see the [0:39:57] Complete your question. Representative Moore. [0:40:02] Well, M- Madam Chair, um, thank you again for bringing the bill back. Um, I really want to thank you for your tenacity because Georgia has a severe, severe, I don't think people understand how severe we are when it comes to a shortage of nurses. And we have done everything over the last 30 years to impede their progress here, which is why they leave. They live here, and they leave here to go and work somewhere else and come back to the state of Georgia to live on the weekends, and we shouldn't have that. [0:40:40] But when your child or your parent is in an emergency room and they die there because there is a shortage of nurses, because there are not that many doctors here, you would say today is a good day to pass this bill. We really need nurses, and we need to welcome them back. I don't think that this would encumber anywhere else. It's not in my county, but I welcome it anywhere in the state of Georgia because you just do not know where they're gonna go, and we need to have that same old school profession here in Georgia. [0:41:14] And I thank you, and I thank you also to everyone on the committee who has supported this and voted for it multiple times over those years. [0:41:22] I hope that that little bit of money will keep you in that school. [0:41:25] Thank you. [0:41:28] Representative, Representative Jackson. [0:41:30] Yes. Are, are there other areas in the state? You always have a problem- [0:41:35] Mm-hmm [0:41:35] ... about when we are looking at doing schools and what have you. A lot of them are done in the northern part of the state and not in the, not looking at sites in the southern part. [0:41:52] Oh, I have not read this over, I'm sorry. You know, they've given it to us. But is there... I know you're looking at putting schools in. They put new schools in Savannah- [0:42:05] Mm-hmm [0:42:05] ... uh, recently. [0:42:06] Right [0:42:06] Nursing programs and what have you. But here, what I'm hearing here again is looking right back up in this area, but why not look at areas that are in need of nurses and what have you, and that our young people can attend, particularly those that are, uh, are working in hospitals and that you want to help out? [0:42:30] Yeah. So as, I think as the chairman stated too, this is specifically for a priv- for private institutions. [0:42:37] Mm-hmm. [0:42:37] That's all the tuition equalization grants for. Many of the students in other of the programs of our state qualify for Hope- [0:42:44] Mm-hmm [0:42:44] ... and other scholarships as well. This is for that private school that just needs a little bit of help. There are, as I said, there are 35 schools spread out all over our state, our private schools, that qualify for this on all kinds of levels. It could be to go study anything at the school. But this is narrowly focused to address the nursing shortage for this one unique school. It's pretty unique, and we, um, we did this also last year for South University. [0:43:15] Mm-hmm. [0:43:15] It's not that they are trying to not be in another part of the state. [0:43:20] Mm-hmm. [0:43:20] It's that this is where capacity is needed, particularly where those students are. They moved another campus to Stockbridge because there was a need for that there. [0:43:33] Okay. [0:43:33] They're not trying to be, um, an everything to everyone school. It is simply, simply and profoundly over the years very successful in teaching nursing students that are not getting a tuition equalization grant. So this is con- to continue- [0:43:49] Mm-hmm [0:43:49] ... and incentivize that. [0:43:51] Thank you. [0:43:51] Mm-hmm. [0:43:54] Thank you. Um, I, I see no further questions. We don't have anyone here to speak on the bill. I, I do want to thank, I think the lady may have mis- misspoke. I don't think she intended to. Um, but, but I'm informed that the tuition equaliza- tuition equalization grant is paid to the school, not to the student. So that just gives us a b- better, better feel for... It, it helps the student with their tuition, but it, it, it's not something that would be give- be given to a student that- [0:44:20] Right [0:44:20] ... something could've been done with other than to do that. Um... [0:44:24] Well, and I didn't say that specifically. I'm sorry if it sounded like that. [0:44:27] No, that's what I'm saying. [0:44:27] But it, I just said the amounts per quarter and per semester. [0:44:30] Yeah, yeah. And you... I, I just thought I, I believe you, you, like I said, you misspoke. [0:44:34] Right. It, it- [0:44:34] To, to the student. It's in the student's behalf to the, to the school. So I just wanted to make it clear. [0:44:38] It... [0:44:38] Yes, ma'am. [0:44:39] And so it would help them if they had other expenses outside of school- [0:44:42] Absolutely. It, um- [0:44:43] ... that they needed to not use that money, but to- [0:44:45] No, ab- absolutely [0:44:46] ... transportation, other things that- [0:44:48] A- absolutely. I just wanted to make a point that this, this state, as, as it does with Hope- [0:44:52] Right [0:44:53] ... w- that benefits the student, but it's paid directly to the, the institution, so we know the, the money is doing what it's supposed to be doing. You, you either have a, somebody ready to make a motion for you or another question. [0:45:03] Okay. [0:45:03] Number 26. [0:45:04] I am ready to make a motion on this bill that provides educational choices, my friend. [0:45:10] I, I, uh, I saw another light, but it went away, so, uh, you're, uh, recognized for that purpose. [0:45:16] Make a motion. [0:45:16] Yes, sir. [0:45:16] Do pass. [0:45:17] Yeah, ma- [0:45:17] For educational choices. [0:45:20] I have a motion and a second by, uh, the right honorable gentle- the right honorable gentleman from Dalton. Is there any discussion on the motion? The motion is to move HB 541, uh, onto the rules committee with a do pass recommendation. That's LC 61-0388S. Is there any discussion? Hearing no further discussion, all those in favor say aye. [0:45:44] Aye. [0:45:45] Any opposed, no. You are on to rules. Um... [0:45:51] Good job, Dave. Seventh time's the charm. I think I voted for this thing five and a half times. I'm feeling pretty good about it. [0:46:01] It gives you the, the, the perfect thing if you were for it before you were against it, and then you were for it again. [0:46:05] I'm 70. [0:46:06] Okay. Um, I am going to... Is, uh, Representative Kendrick here? [0:46:11] Yes. [0:46:11] All right. Yes, ma'am. You, you, you promised us a, uh... I'm trying to do the ones that I, I thought were gonna be quick, um, first. So yes, yes, ma'am. [0:46:20] Yes. [0:46:21] You, you have for us HR6. Tell us, uh, make sure we've got the right, uh, document for you. Yes. [0:46:27] LC60-0942. [0:46:30] Yes, ma'am. [0:46:30] And I think I spoke to most of you about it. But this is just the constitutional amendment that allows for the State of Georgia to have more than one investment fund. We have two now. And, um, so it just changes fund to funds and adds plural throughout the constitutional amendment, and that is it. [0:46:49] Th- there's like, this is the first hearing on this, so we'll, uh, we'll let, let people look at it, and, uh, we'll get back with the lady. But does anyone have questions? So the, the... J- allow me to ask one, and I, I know you know the answer. You do this. So this would allow us to have more than the one C- C capital fund, and, and it would then, the, the funds would be, you know, set up and maintained if you have a specific idea with, uh, a general law that you would bring back should the, the amendment pass. [0:47:15] Uh, so we currently have two investment funds right now. So if, in, in the future, if the general assembly wants to, you know, create some more funds they can, but we have two that are operating, you know, right now. [0:47:26] Right. But if we want to do that, we do that through general law. [0:47:29] Correct. [0:47:30] Are there any further questions? Any questions on this item on its first hearing? I, I see none. I don't think we have anybody, uh, signed up to speak on that, so we're gonna thank you for coming. And if I'd known you were gonna be that quick, we'd have had you earlier. [0:47:43] Okay. Thank you. [0:47:45] Thank you. Thank you, representative. [0:47:56] We got to bring those 500. [0:47:58] Okay, um, [0:48:02] Representative, uh, Griffin, Floyd Griffin, uh, from the 149th, come tell us about, uh, HB 203. [0:48:11] Can I allow Mr. Anders to go ahead? [0:48:14] Sure, absolutely. Just, just tell us who he is or you let him introduce himself. Yes, sir. [0:48:20] He took my water. I brought it in, so. [0:48:24] Well, you have to take that up with Dr. Clark. I don't know, did he take it from in front of you, Dr. Clark? Did, did you claim in that water? [0:48:30] Uh-uh. [0:48:38] Okay. [0:48:38] Ready? [0:48:39] Yes, sir. [0:48:41] Okay. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of this committee. I bring to you, uh, House Bill 203, uh, ELC 10023. [0:48:57] I also want to thank the chair, uh, for allowing this, this meeting, uh, this, uh, hearing to take place because, uh, last year, uh, at the latter part of the, the session, uh, the bill was up for hearing, but we just could not pull everybody together at the last minute, so I want to thank you, sir, for, for doing that. Plus, I also want you all to realize that, uh, I'm on this side. Uh, when I was in the Senate, I served on the High Education Committee, and I want to thank you all for what you all have done over the, over the years. [0:49:34] Well, if, if you know anybody over there, I want you to go over there and tell them to stop messing up, uh, Representative Holcomb's bill when we send it over there. [0:49:43] I- [0:49:43] No, I'm just kidding, uh, Senator. [0:49:45] I would do that. [0:49:45] Uh, Representative, keep- [0:49:46] I would, I would do that if we get a due pass here. [0:49:49] Sorry, sen- ca- ca- carry on, sir. [0:49:52] Oh, boy. Okay, uh, s- uh, Mr. Chair and committee, uh, my opening statement is gonna be about six or seven minutes. Then Mr. Hendy is gonna- [0:50:04] Dandy. [0:50:04] Uh, Dan- Dandy is gonna, uh, speak for about three minutes. But this is a very, very, very crucial and important bill, and that's why I'm taking the time to make sure that y'all have a good understanding of where we stand on this. I want to begin by thanking the alumni, community leaders, students, educators, and citizen who took the time to attend several Zoom meetings that were set up. Your voice matter, and today your participation sent a clear message that the future of high education in Georgia is important to you. [0:50:44] We are here to discuss House Bill 203, legislation I offered to ensure that two of the five at-large seats on the Georgia Board of Regents are held by, by graduates, alumnus of Georgia public historical Black colleges and universities: Albany State University, Fort Valley State University, and Savannah State University. [0:51:16] Let me be very clear at the outset, as the, at the outset, this hearing is not about politics. It is not about phaser-ism, and it is not about division. This is about fairness, representation, and good governance. For more than 100 years, Georgia HBCUs have done the hard work of educating teachers, nurses, scientists, engineers, military officers, business leaders, clergy, and public servants. [0:51:53] These institution have served first-generation students, rural communities, urban communities, and families who believe education was the pathway to opportunity, yet this is a re- reality we must be willing to acknowledge. In the last three decades, only one alumnus from Georgia Three Public HBCUs has served on the Board of Education. [0:52:24] One over 30 years from, from the, from the three institutions that have educa- uh, educated tens of thousands of Georgians. At the same time, representation from some individual uni- uh, individualized universities has been far more consistent and concentrated. For example, University of Georgia alumni make up 57.9% of the, of the board. [0:52:59] Georgia Southern, Augusta State, Georgia Tech, uh, Augusta University, and Georgia, uh, State, uh, each will have one member on the board. Now, Georgia State really have three, but two of those members did not go to, to get their undergraduate degree at one of the state universities. They received their advanced degree, I think it was a law degree, at, um, at, uh, Georgia State. [0:53:37] I did not, it did not hap- that did not happen that intentionally, but it had hap- has happened. And when governance consists reflection some institution more than others, leadership requires us to pause, evaluate, and correct the course. House Bill 203 is that correction. House Bill 303 does not expand the Board of Regents, it does not take seats away from any regent, it does not weaken the authority of the governor. [0:54:12] It simply ensures that two of the existing five at-large seats are filled by individuals who understand from living experience the mission, challenge, and struggles of Georgia HBCUs. One seat would, would be symbolic, two seats are representation. I want to speak briefly from my personal experience. I have served on three universities' boards of trustees, two at predominantly white institution and one at my alma mater, Tuskegee University. [0:54:53] I have also served as fac- on faculties at both HBCUs and predominantly white universities. The HBC, HBCU was Winston-Salem State University in North Carolina and, um... Lost my thought. Uh, and, uh, Wake Forest University in North Carolina. I have seen governance from the inside. I understand how decisions are made, whose voices are heard, and whose perspectives are too often misleading. [0:55:30] And I can say with confidence, if you are not at the table, you are on the menu. Instructors, in- institutes are stronger when leadership reflects the people they serve. Governance is better when diverse perspectives are, are present. This is not theory, this is reality. Let me also be clear about what this hearing is not. This hearing is not an attack on any institution, it is not an indictment of the current Board of Regents, and it is not a claim that anyone has acted in bad faith. [0:56:15] It's, it is a recognition that systems evolve, and when they do, governance must evolve with them. Georgia University System is strong, larger, and more diverse than ever before. Our governance structure should reflect that reality. And at the end of this process, the question is simple: Should institutions that have served Georgia faithfully for more than, more than a century continue to be underrepresented in the governance of higher education? [0:56:54] I believe the answer is no. House District 203 reflects that reality. A seat at the table is not a gift, it is a right. Let me add that we will place, if, if, if this bill pass and the governor signs it, uh, one, uh, member will be sworn in on January the 1st, 2028, and the second will be sworn in on January the 1st, 2020, uh, 2031. [0:57:31] And as we begin this hearing, let me close with the principle that has guided my leadership in the military, in government, and in public service. Leaders solve problems, they do not create them, and winners make it happen. Thank you, Mr., uh, Speaker. I would ask you to allow us for to have questions when they finish if you so desire. So, Mr. Chairman. [0:57:58] Representative, I appreciate the promotion, but the gentleman from Statesboro might object to me being called Speaker, so I'm, I'm gonna say you meant Chairman and, uh, just, just have a little good fun, a little good fun with you there on, on that. [0:58:10] Yes, thank you very much. [0:58:11] Speaker Burns, did you hear that from me? No. Yes, sir, you're recognized. [0:58:15] Oh, well, I'll let him know tomorrow I didn't, I didn't, I didn't demote him. [0:58:20] I don't think he's worried about that at all. Yes, sir. [0:58:25] All right. Uh, good afternoon, uh, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. My name is Kenneth Dandy, and I am the chairman of the Georgia Alumni Association of Historically Black State Universities, or GAAHBSU, as we call it. And I am here today to express my strong support for House Bill 203, which provides that the Georgia Board of Regents include members who are graduates of Historically Black Colleges and Universities, or HBCUs, within the state university system. [0:59:01] J- GAAHBSU is a non-profit organization that is made up of alumni from all of the three public HBCUs here in Georgia, which are Albany State University, Fort Valley State University, and Savannah State University. It was founded in 1985 by Davey Gibson of Albany State University, Thomas Dortch of Fort Valley State University, and Roy L. Jackson of Savannah State University for the purpose of jointly advocating for these schools to obtain the resources needed to ensure academic success. [0:59:40] More than 40 years later, we continue to advocate for our schools and alumni through legislation like House Bill 203. Georgia's public HBCUs have been pillars of excellence, opportunity, and transformation for generations. institutions like the ones mentioned above have educated thousands of Georgians who are now leaders in business, education, healthcare, and public service. [1:00:11] Yet despite their impact, these universities have not had a consistent or formal voice in the system that governs them. Representation matters. The policies and priorities set forth by the Board of Regents shape funding, academic programs, facilities, and student experiences across the entire university system of Georgia. Having a representative who understands the history, culture, and unique challenges of our public HBCUs ensures that decisions are equitable, informed, and reflective of all Georgia students, not just those in the largest institutions. [1:00:59] This bill is not about division, as you've heard earlier, it's about inclusion. It's also about making sure that we plan, that when we plan, uh, the future of higher education in Georgia, every student and institution has a seat at the table. By supporting House Bill 203, we affirmed that excellence in Georgia's universities is diverse and that we are stronger when all voices are heard. [1:01:30] Therefore, I urge this committee to vote in support of House Bill 203 and bring needed representation and fairness to the Georgia Board of Regents. Thank you for your time and c- uh, commitment to a better future for all Georgia students. Thank you. [1:01:49] Did, did you have any- [1:01:51] And I'd also like to, uh, say that I'm, I'm a 1991 alumnus of Savannah State University. I forgot to mention that earlier, but, um, and next, uh, we have Garren Walker, who is the president of the Fort Valley State University National Alumni Association. [1:02:08] Gentleman's recognized. [1:02:09] Mm-hmm. [1:02:09] Thank you. I will be brief in my remarks. Um, as stated, I'm Garren Walker, president of the Fort Valley State University National Alumni Association. And as a dedicated higher education professional, I wholeheartedly support House Bill 203 and urge our legislators to pass it. This bill represents a long overdue step towards inclusive representation and equity in the governance of our state public higher education system. For far too long, the voices of alumni from HBCUs have not been guaranteed formal representation in the governing body that shapes policy, resource allocation, and strategic direction for higher education in Georgia. [1:02:51] House Bill 203 directly addresses this gap by requiring that beginning in January 2028, at least one at-large member of the Board of Regents be an HBCU graduate, and expanding that requirement to two such members by January 2031. Passing this bill is important for several reasons, strengthening representation and voice. HBCU graduates bring lived experience and deep insight into the s- successes and challenges faced by students, faculty, staff, and alumni of HBCUs, which would e- uh, elevate diverse perspectives in decision-making that affects thousands of Georgians. [1:03:31] Promoting equity in higher education leadership by allowing HBC alum- alumni to serve on this board will require the state to acknowledge the value of diverse leadership and the importance of dismantling structural inequity. Fostering trust and engagement. When graduates of our institutions have formal votes in shaping policy, it strengthens trust in the university system of Georgia. I thank Representative Griffin and all bill sponsors and advocates who have worked tirelessly for House Bill 203, and it is our hope that this bill will move forward. [1:04:06] Thank you. [1:04:09] Thank you. And that, that concludes your presentation, or, um, you- [1:04:13] Yes, sir. [1:04:13] I don't know. We have a, one question. I, I am gonna keep us... We're, we're gonna... We, we got way broad in the last bill about making statements. We're at a point now, if you have a question for the, the gentleman or, uh, and, the gentleman that are with the representative, if, if the representative or, or you two gentlemen would stand for questions, we- we'll, we'll do them, but we're, we're gonna make q- we're gonna have this questions. We get to a point where we're gonna move on the bill, we'll debate the merits of the bill, but we got way wide and I let it, I let it get out of hand, so I let everybody have an equal opportunity to be out of hand, but we're gonna ask questions at this time. [1:04:46] Yes, ma'am. Do you have a question? No, uh, number 19. I'm sorry. Who, who was that? [1:04:51] Jan. [1:04:51] Yes, sir. [1:04:52] Y- ma'am. [1:04:54] Representative. [1:04:55] Cal- calm down. Calm down. [1:04:57] I'm very calm. [1:04:57] I, I'm a woman. I'm not a man. [1:05:00] I said ma'am. [1:05:01] Oh, you did, ma'am. Okay. [1:05:02] Okay. You wanna argue with me on that? We'll do. [1:05:04] No, I'm not gonna argue with you. [1:05:07] Oh. [1:05:07] I just wanted to ask a, something. [1:05:09] Oh. [1:05:09] I just wanted to ask a question. [1:05:11] Yes, ma'am. [1:05:12] So it says here that, I mean, with all that to say that you're looking for eligibility requirements for 34 CFR section, can you tell me that, what that is? [1:05:26] I'm not- [1:05:26] I, I, I'll, I'll help the representative. That, that is the federal designation that, that designates the HBCUs across the country. And gentlemen, if, if y'all, if I'm not correct in that, correct me, but I believe that's the federal designation that, uh, designates HBCUs across the, the nation. [1:05:42] Section 608.2.2. Is that...? [1:05:50] Okay. [1:05:55] Are, are there further questions? Yes, ma'am. Uh, who is that? Which one? Is it Dr. Clark? [1:06:00] Um, thank you, Mr. Chair. Really quick, um, the bill as written, does it require that the people, um, that would be appointed to the board attend one of the three colleges that you mentioned? Or could they also attend Morehouse, Spelman, um, colleges such as that? [1:06:15] No, because they aren't under the university system. This is only three, uh, universities that comes under the Board of Regents. [1:06:24] Thank you. [1:06:26] Number, uh, number 22. [1:06:29] Thank you. [1:06:30] Yes, ma'am. [1:06:30] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yeah, I am, uh, I'm happy that this is a coming before the group, but I'm unhappy I'm sorry. I'm unhappy that, uh, some of the information, uh, that is shared here is not all true at this time. Now, I'm Edna Jackson. I was one of the founding members of GABSU. I served as the alumni director at Savannah State University. [1:07:02] During that time of period, there was a whole group of us from each of the institutions that wanted to get members on the Board of Reg- Regents from one of our institutions. We fought for a number of years. As a result of that, Connie Cater was elected from Savannah State. The problem that I have with this at this time is when I was approached about this, it was talked about we need to get someone from one of the three institutions. [1:07:37] But the method that was going to be used, it was ... I'm ... I ... Yes. [1:07:42] Please get to the question, ma'am. I'm- [1:07:43] Oh, I only can ask a question? [1:07:44] Yes, ma'am. [1:07:45] Okay. [1:07:45] We're gonna, we're gonna debate the merits of this bill when we get there if it's- [1:07:47] Thank you. [1:07:48] But just, uh, if- [1:07:48] Thank you [1:07:49] ... you have a question of the gentleman, you can put your statement in the form of ... I'll give you a little latitude there. [1:07:54] Okay. [1:07:54] But let's try to, let's try ... 'Cause we have two, two more things we need to get to. [1:07:57] Okay. [1:07:57] Yes, ma'am. [1:07:58] But I would like to come back- [1:07:59] Oh, yes, ma'am [1:08:00] ... to, to clarify. [1:08:00] We'll ... This is our first hear- [1:08:01] Thank you. [1:08:01] Yes, ma'am. We're first hearing on this, and when we get to that point, you, the lady will be recognized. [1:08:05] Thank you very much. [1:08:07] The vice chairman of the committee. Um. [1:08:10] Uh, tha- thank you, Representative, for bringing this, this forward. Uh, uh, of the five at large seats, I'm just curious, over the years, have you, uh, has the, the Alumni Association of Georgia or any of the three individual al- alumni, have you petitioned the governor? The governor, of course, appoints these positions after he ratified by the Senate. Um, have you, has he been petitioned over the years to add, uh, good candidates? Have you brought people forward and said, "Hey, we think you would be a great addition," over the years? [1:08:44] I, I know, uh, that that's something that we've talked about amongst ourselves as alumni. And, uh, we've had, you know, uh, uh, I, I guess, op- ideas about doing just that. So, uh, that's something we certainly see in the very near future, especially with the current crop of candidates. Um, I- I'll say for GABSU in particular, and I do not want to try to venture too far off here, but, uh, we, we're looking to host like a candidate forum just to make sure, uh, that, you know, they understand, the candidates that is on both parties, understand the needs of our HBCUs, especially along this line with having representation on the University System of Georgia Board of Regents. [1:09:31] Okay. Thanks. [1:09:33] Are, are there further questions? Further questions? I, I, the, the chair has one. And, and I don't know that I'm gonna sound this and y'all can get back with me, 'cause I don't expect you to have the answer. But my, my, my first question is, do you know any place in the, in the US ... I know different places, like the university ... or, or the Texas, the university system in Texas, uh, if I ... I believe I'm correct in saying they have what would be equivalent to our Board of Regents. For Texas A&M University, it has a whole board for that. The University of Texas has a bit of something that would be our, our Board of Regents. [1:10:05] I believe they're set up a little different. South Carolina is set up a little different. But my question is, are you aware that there's any set aside place on any governing board for, for public higher education in Georgia that is specific to graduates from a, a university in that system, whether it be an HBCU or otherwise? In other words, there, there's no requirement we don't have in this bill that said, "Hey, there's, there's got to be a, a representative from, um, uh, graduates of, uh, West Georgia, North Georgia or Dalton State," you know? [1:10:40] We don't say we gotta have one from one of those three. So my ... Do you see what I'm getting at on this? I, I hear what you're saying, but I would love to know if there, there's any- [1:10:47] Yeah [1:10:47] ... geographic specific- [1:10:49] I, I get that [1:10:51] ... um, se- you know, uh, places in, in the US, again, not just for HBCUs, but for any particular college. [1:10:58] I, I, I'll take, I'll take that up- [1:11:00] Yes, sir [1:11:01] ... because this is extremely important. Now let me make one other thing very clear. We have 19 members on the Board of Regents. There are eight, there are 14 congressional districts. [1:11:15] Yes, sir. [1:11:15] Right? And there are what I would call four majority minority districts, and we have not had a, a, a, a, a, a HBCU or even a African American appointed from one of those universities in the last 30 years. So the governor is the one. He can come and select Floyd Griffin, uh, the next time, uh, if I file in one of those districts. [1:11:46] So I'm not criticizing the, the governors, okay? But the governors have that responsibility. The one person that served, uh, in the last 30 years, uh, uh, Governor, uh, back, uh ... Zel Miller appointed him, and he only served one term [1:12:13] But if you would, if the three would get back to me if there's anything, again, set aside by... I understand congressional districts. There's 14 congressional districts, five at large seats. But, uh, none of those say, um, you know, you, you could be in a congressional district down in Savannah and have graduated from Dalton State. You could, you could be, you know, down by, you know, up, up by North Georgia and have graduated from, from Columbus. You could be up there and have graduated from Augusta. I understand you're saying that nobody from an HBCU is, is currently appointed, but I'm just curious about, about that. [1:12:44] Um, so would, would do that. With that, we have no further questions, Representative, so I thank you for bringing the bill. We- we've had this for a first hearing. I, I wanna encourage you to get with a, a, a gra- great member of our committee, um, former mayor of Savannah, uh, Representative Edna Jackson, and, and, um, continue conversation. I'd be glad to in- involve with that, with you. Um, Representative, you are, you are a value- valued and valuable member of our committee. Thank you very much. [1:13:10] I thank you very much. [1:13:11] Yes, sir. Thank you. [1:13:12] Thank you, Chair. [1:13:12] Thank you, Representative. Thank you, gentlemen, for coming. [1:13:14] Thank [1:13:46] you. [1:13:49] Well, we have nothing further than that, so I'm kinda hungry. [1:14:01] Oh. Okay, we, we have backup, uh, that, that we're gonna do. And, and, um, I'm gonna allow, um, Chairman Rice, uh, or Representative Rice to give us a little, um, a, a little primer on, on 1064 since we were rushed last time. But, I mean, we, I think most of the members here, you know, heard the thing, so try to cover the new ground. You have a couple of speakers on this. Uh, as I mentioned, um, to the lady today, we're, we're having this hearing today because when we were at the last meeting, we had to rush through because of the, the agenda on the day. [1:14:33] The Chair's not prepared to, to take action on the, on this measure today, and we will not be doing so. But I'm, I'm going to, uh, give the lady an opportunity to fill us back in, and then we're gonna hear from some more folks, um, on, on the measure. Yes, ma'am. [1:14:46] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, so we're looking at House Bill 1064. That's LC610341. And, um, thank you, members, as, um, I'm glad to be here in front of you today. I know last week was very rushed, and, um, I'm not gonna be redundant with what was said then. But I do, I would like to bring some clarity to some items that were discussed. So I wanna say, after 10 years of proven success with, uh, documentation of the Classic Learning Test validity and reliability as a college entrance exam, this bill is just seeking parity with the ACT and SAT. [1:15:25] It is currently, um, being administered in this way in six states. That would be Louisiana, Florida, Arkansas, um, Oklahoma, Wyoming, and North Carolina. So, and I will say that June 2025, Juan Copa, which is the head of assessments for Florida Department of Education, um, is quoted as co- uh, as referring to the Classic Learning Test equally rigorous alternative to SAT and ACT. Yesterday, the Georgia Board of Regents voted to validate CLT as an admissions credential to all colleges and universities except for UGA and Georgia Tech with a p- a pathway on including those, those colleges later. [1:16:11] The legislature doesn't determine test validity. We defer that to the Board of Regents. So my bill is to, um, just simply sco- uh, catches up scholarship policy to our current admissions policy. So, um, I will say SAT and ACT, this isn't, um, to compete. It's just to give students another pathway. Um, they've had a duopoly since 1959. That's 67 years. So it's not about replacing. [1:16:42] It's just an added pathway. So, um, and I, I was asked about the scores and how, um, and I have someone, I have Michael Torres with CLT here. He's gonna speak on a little more of the specifics on the data points. But, um, a score of 86 on CLT aligns with a 1230 on the SAT. The score outlined for Zell Miller Scholarship in Georgia Code is 1200. So CLT scores qualify for, um, s- state-funded scholarships currently in Louisiana, Florida, um, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Wyoming, and North Carolina, and, um... [1:17:20] I'm sorry, not North Carolina. North Carolina does not have a state scholarship that's funded like our, our Zell and HOPE. But the other states have that, and, and CLT is a qualified in that. So, um, in summary, the core is if Georgia's university system says a test is sufficient, uh, evidence of college readiness, state merit policy should recognize it with the same evidence. And with that, I'll take questions or defer to the speakers. [1:18:02] Okay. Thank you. Thank you for that presentation. Are there any questions from the, uh, members of the committee at this point? [1:18:10] Yes, right here. [1:18:10] Ah, yes. Representative Barnes. [1:18:17] Um, thanks for bringing this bill. I, my concern is that, um, the validity, I just wanted to see some data on how they tested the validity and the rigor of the test. [1:18:30] Okay. So I do have someone to speak on that somewhat, but I will tell you that first of all, the CLT, it actually, the math components in it has, um, it's handwritten trigonometry is involved. So there's no, there's no cheating the test, there's no, um, teaching to the test. It, it has a ri- a rigor that, um, actually shows the thinking process, the academic process of writing, 'cause it also has a writing essay component. [1:18:56] Do you know how long they, um, tested it? [1:18:59] So it's- [1:19:00] Or measured? [1:19:01] Yes, it, it's been 10 years. [1:19:03] Thank you. [1:19:10] Mr. Clerk. [1:19:12] Um, thank you, Mr. Chair. So, um, I asked last time about the scores, and you said that according to the concordance table from CLT, um, that an 86 would be equivalent to a 1230. Um, my question though is who created the concordance table that, um, compares? Because I know the concordance table between ACT and SAT was created, like, they worked together on that. [1:19:45] So has CLT consulted with ACT and SAT to create a concordance table that matches these scores together? [1:19:56] Okay, thank you for that question. It's a good question. And, um, Chairman, um, may I call on Michael Torres to come to, to answer that question? [1:20:04] Absolutely. [1:20:05] Can we get there? [1:20:06] Um, you've gotta be somewhere where you can get to a microphone. You can stand or sit. [1:20:16] Yes, sir. D- if you just tell us who you are and who you represent. [1:20:20] Thank you very much. My name's Michael Torres. I'm the policy director at Classic Learning Test. Um, and your question, ma'am, was it, uh, who, whether or not we consulted SAT and ACT? [1:20:29] Yeah, so when you mentioned concordance tables, I know the ACT, SAT concordance table has been around for a while, but that was due to them basically working together to create that. And so I'm asking, has CLT sat in a room with ACT and SAT to create concordance tables? [1:20:48] Yeah, we s- uh, spoke with folks from both organizations several times requesting that they c- uh, coordinate with us on an updated concordance table because it's been something that they have, uh, asked us about and, um, made, uh, complaints about to, to folks at university systems and, uh, to bodies such as this. Uh, so we've asked many times over the course of years. They used to be very responsive, uh, up until a few years ago when we started really spreading, and since then they haven't responded. So what we did was we worked with four independent PhDs, uh, at various universities who, uh, authored the concordance study using data, and that concordance study has since been reviewed and approved by several university systems, including the university system of Georgia, the university system of North Carolina, the university system of Florida, the University of New Mexico and Oklahoma, uh, West Point, the Naval Academy, Air Force Academy, and all the other 330 universities that we work with. [1:21:43] Okay. A follow-up question to that. [1:21:45] Sure. [1:21:45] Um, so you said you work with, uh, four PhDs, um, and I haven't, uh, with that type of background, I understand, um, that they are researchers, but I also understand that, and maybe I'm just behind, but the latest data, I have not seen much peer review research. So, like, what did they research in order to come up with this? [1:22:11] Very much the same thing that the s- SAT and ACT concordance research. Theirs is, uh, as far as I know, not peer-reviewed either. They both also re- had to redo their concordances. I know the SAT had to do a new concordance to itself because they changed the test so much in 2024, so they had to concord themselves to the old SAT, which is then concorded to the ACT. I don't believe that's been peer reviewed either. Um, that said, uh, it's, the, a concordance isn't really something that we would expect to have submitted for peer review. It's something that's usually reviewed by university systems, and, uh, that's proven out over time, and it's been in use for several years now with no issue, both for scholarships from states, uh, s- that are very similar to the Zell Miller and Hope Scholarship, as well as several university systems. [1:22:54] Um, thank you. Mr. Chair, can I have one more? [1:22:57] Oh, uh, sure. [1:22:58] I just wanna, um, clarify. I guess what I'm saying is when we talk about, um, readiness and whether or not this test, I guess, is kind of equivalent to the other test and how it is equivalent, I do know that there are several peer review studies on ACT and SAT. But right now, and obviously CLT is in its infancy, so that makes sense, um, that there wouldn't be a whole lot of data out there quite yet. But is there any peer reviewed studies on readiness and, um, like a comparison between all three of these tests? [1:23:40] Uh, as far as I know, there's probably some underway. We've heard rumors that there's universities looking at it that are independent of us. We had our first study come out, um, wasn't commissioned by us. Uh, Jor- uh, Grove City College in Pennsylvania reviewed CLT and found that it was, uh, 5% more predictive than the SAT for their students. Um, but we haven't requested any peer reviewed, uh, studies, uh, because of the reason that I had given before. The peers we really care about are university systems such as the USG system, the University of North Carolina system, and as they review our data and the students that are coming their way, uh, they found that it's been reliable enough, valid enough, and useful enough for them to adopt for admissions and scholarships across the board. [1:24:21] Thank you. [1:24:23] How, how big is Grove College? Uh, I'm not sure about the, uh, total population. I mean, how, how many people were involved in, in their review? I can't remember off the top of my head. It's maybe something, a few hundred, 500, 600, something like that. You know what the margin of error in a, a study that has 500 people in it is? A couple percent w- was what he had on there. Substantially more than that. Uh, if, if, if my statistical background comes, it's, it's substantially more than that. I mean, you, you, you do 500 people in, in a s- a state with, you know, 10 million and, and your, your margin of error is, is far more than a couple of percent. [1:24:59] Um, so, um, but I, I just, I, I think to the lady's point... And, and let me explain if I can. Um, I'm gonna take a little latitude here. The r- the reason I am not, um, you know, fast-forward on moving this is I wanna, I wanna say again, the, the, the primary discussion around this is whether this, this score on this test would, would be allowed to give students the ability to have the Zell Miller scholarship. As we sit here today, the, in the, in the last years and in the current budget, the, the HOPE Scholarship is funded at 100%, which means the HOPE Scholarship equals a Zell scholarship. [1:25:35] So taking no action on this bill today or this year even, if, if that's where we get to, does not take anything away from any student in Georgia. It gives them the opportunity, if you can get, if you have HOPE, you have Zell, uh, as it is right now. That may not be that way forever. We'll see what the, you know, who the governor is next year and what the budget is, but, but we'll have another year of watching it later. And in, in other words, that's why as chair, I'm not pushing forward that we have to move on this because there's no, um, there was no harm, you know, if, if not. [1:26:06] Now, that said, I've given the representative and I'm, I'm giving you and other people, speakers, you know, time to present data, uh, and to, to do that. But it, it is a bit telling, and I'm, I'm doing what I asked the committee not to, but I'm trying to lay the groundwork for why I'm, I'm moving thoughtfully on this. It is a bit telling that the university sys- system approved the test for the university system, but they left out, you know, the University of Georgia, Georgia Tech. And I, I believe you said, uh, Representative, did they le- le- leave out, uh, Augusta as well? [1:26:41] No, no. [1:26:41] No, ju- just the University of Georgia Tech. But, you know, th- that, that means that they're, they're looking for additional information as well. A- again, it may be there, it, it may be right, but that, that's why I'm in no hurry to put this committee in a place that we have to pick 86 or we have to decide if we believe in, in one concordance table versus a peer review one. Um, doesn't mean the lady doesn't have a good proposition, doesn't mean you have a good product. But the, the, the, um, urgency doesn't exist because HOPE equals Zell this year. [1:27:12] I, I'll let, s- since I put that out there, I'll leave you a, a minute to respond to that, and then we're gonna move on to these speakers that have waited patiently. Yes, sir. [1:27:19] Chairman, thank you very much, and I'm, I'm very glad you brought that up, Chairman. Um, the reason that the university system decided to leave out Georgia and Georgia Tech, as I understand it, is because Georgia has a fairly unique thing called the freshman index that they use for placement at those two universities, uh, because students up to this point have not been submitting CLT scores to the university system because it was not allowed for admissions or for Zell Miller or the HOPE Scholarships or anything else that SAT and ACT are currently in law for, but we are not. Um, so they didn't have that data. We set up a, a data-sharing agreement with them several months ago, submitted our concordance, submitted our technical report. [1:27:55] The university system reviewed that, but we're still working on finding that data of Georgia students who did not submit a CLT score that we can share with them so they can build that freshman index. That's a very unique thing that Georgia's system does. It, uh, the only other system that I know of that does it is Iowa. Um, and they had previously waited to collect that data from CLT. We just met with their, uh, academic, uh, chief academic officer earlier this month on the 2nd, and they're moving forward with adding CLT for admissions there. So we understand why they wanted to wait, and we're happy to, to share that data with them. [1:28:28] Um, and I'll say that, that freshman index is independent of the concordance of CLT and independent of the concordance of SAT and ACT and is their own thing. [1:28:35] And that too would provide the committee with additional information. You had a couple more questions here or there are, there are a couple more questions. I'm gonna take those, but I, I do want us to move to the folks that came to speak in order. Quit Park. [1:28:49] Thank you, Mr. Chair. Uh, Mr. Chairman, um, to the author of the bill, I, I do appreciate the bill and, and your effort to provide additional choices for Georgia students. Um, y- I, I'll reiterate my concern with respect to just the, um, better understanding the fiscal costs and impact of it, which I appreciate the chairman and his deliberation regarding this bill. Uh, as Chair Lady Dempsey, uh, noted, um, with respect to ensuring that with a proven product, certainly with Chair Chamberlain and a very tightly written bill in which having served on this committee going on 10 years now, I recall voting on Chair Lady Dempsey's bill multiple times and also heavily scrutinizing it, um, especially because there's bipartisan support to demonstrate that we are being very good and wise stewards of taxpayer dollars. [1:29:30] So I hope if we do have an opportunity for additional time that along with better understanding the effects and, and the rigor of the CLT test, uh, my hope would be that we get a better understanding as to the fiscal impact since it does impact not just the HOPE Scholarship, the Zell Scholarship, but also, uh, the QBE, uh, K through 12, uh, public education system. [1:29:52] Isn't it true? [1:29:53] Isn't it true? [1:29:55] Let's, let's try to keep them in questions. Whip Park. Uh, Chairman Carpenter. [1:30:00] Uh, yeah, so when did the ACT come around? Uh, they, uh, started in 1959 when Eisenhower was- And then the SAT? 1920-something. I can't remember the exact- So is this the ca- same conversation we had in 1960 or 10 years afterwards, 1970? [1:30:17] Chair, Chair, Chairman, Chairman DeLoach is not here to ask him, but we'll, uh, get with him. [1:30:21] Could you ask Moses if this was the same conversation that was had back in 19, I don't know, '69 when the ACT came around? And I know a lot of my colleagues support the ACT over the SAT now, and the question is, was there the same rub in those days, you think? [1:30:42] Um, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna make it. I'm not gonna make you answer that. [1:30:46] Am I willing? [1:30:46] You said ask a question. I'm asking a question. [1:30:49] Well, my main response would be probably not, because the SAT and ACT weren't written into law at the time. Over the course of the years, they have been. [1:30:54] I looked up, that's where I was going. We, we didn't have the Hope Scholarship then, so it wasn't, uh, it wasn't written into law at the time, so it probably just happened organically. [1:31:01] Is it, is it safe to assume that there was turf ba- a turf war in 1969? [1:31:06] There still is. [1:31:07] Okay. Thank you. [1:31:08] Yes, sir. I ca- Vice chairman of the committee. Can, uh- [1:31:14] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, I appreciate the spirit of what I, I think I understand what you're, what you're, uh, trying to accomplish. I, I, in fact, I do, and I appreciate it. Are, are Georgia Independent College Association schools, anybody participating, what, y'all are using the CLT presently? [1:31:31] Yeah. We have, uh, eight private universities in Georgia that currently use CLT, include, uh, Brewton Parker, Covenant College, Emmanuel University, Global University, Holy Spirit College, Shorter University, Toccoa Falls College, and Fruit McConnell University. [1:31:47] Okay. [1:31:47] Along with the university system of Georgia. [1:31:48] Thank you. And in the spirit of our, our illustrious chairman, and, a- and also our illustrious gentleman on my left, um, in the, in the spirit of we wanna get it right, not get things fast, and, and, uh, uh, w- would you consider taking a look at lines 101 through lines 129? There seem to be some sort of things that at, at least are not just sort of intuitive for me. It, we talk about concordance tables in one place, where the representative a minute ago said, I'm not sure that there are concordance tables that include the CLT. [1:32:27] Uh, another place it refers to, uh, the 93rd percentile on line 113. And then another place it's actually giving a, a number like a 26 on the, on the ACT. Uh, so I'd just... I'd ask if y'all would consider taking a look at that, at those specific lines as you're, as you're looking at the, for, towards our next meeting, and maybe even getting our, Chris Greene at GSFC to give some input on that as well, just to make sure that we're congruent on those things, 'cause I, I... [1:32:59] Or at least it's a little confusing for me. [1:33:01] Um, I appreciate that. I really do. I also want to take just a moment for consideration that, um, I think last time it was mentioned that this test could be perceived to be for a privileged or private school or a certain income level, um, student. And I want to just bring to the point that while ACT and SAT are longstanding, proven, good, valid tests, there are many people that are able to pay a lot of money to do prep courses that guarantee, have money back guarantees, on improving the scores of the test. [1:33:36] And what I'm offering here with this bill is even someone without the financial means, if they are a critical thinker, a good writer, um, and it, they are able to prep, be prepped for this without having to have a prep course. So I think it ta- it, when I say pathways for students, it is, there are layers and layers of, um, ways that this just creates, and I, I would love for Georgia to be a leader, um, on this movement. [1:34:09] Thank you. Um, if, I, I don't have any further questions. You all are welcome to, to stay there if you'd like. I'm gonna a- I'm gonna go to speakers, and I'll just, uh, have them stand up, um, so that, uh, our, our representative and her guest can stay. Um, first one I have is Joseph D'Angelo. Do I have that right? Joseph? Okay, so if you could just, can you give, give it all you need to in two, three minutes? [1:34:32] Or less. [1:34:33] Okay. There you go. [1:34:35] Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [1:34:35] Yes, sir. [1:34:36] Joseph D'Angelo, director of the Church Ambassador Network with Front Line Policy Council. We are in favor of this bill. We've endorsed this bill. Georgia has invested, uh, in educational freedom, in school choice, in classical education, in home school. Uh, but right now we're, we empower families to choose how their, the, their children learn, and then funnel them all through a testing gate. It's, it's the same two tests controlled by two companies. So a student with a 4.0 in a rigorous, uh, classical program could lose access to scholarships because the state refuses to recognize an exam that, uh, may align more closely with the education of that child, and HB 1064 fixes that disconnect. [1:35:20] Uh, we're a Christian organization. We believe in what the scripture says in Proverbs 22:6. It says that we should train up a child in the way he should go, and when they're old, they won't depart from it. Georgia families are doing exactly that, and this bill ensures, uh, that their children are not penalized for it. This is a pro-family, pro-competition bill, uh, that really doesn't cost the state much and takes nothing away from SAT and ACT students. So we support the bill as it's introduced. Respectfully, uh, urge you all on the committee to pass HB 1064. [1:35:51] Thanks. [1:35:52] I, I, if I would, and I, you don't have to, uh, weigh it, I would just wanna comment here, is y- y- you, again, I'm gonna go back to my point. The Hope Scholarship today and for this next school year will be the same as the Zell Scholarship. Passing or not passing this bill has absolutely no impact- [1:36:08] Right [1:36:09] ... on anybody that's gonna graduate before this body meets in January, uh, of 2027. So I don't dis- disagree with the points the gentleman makes. You s- those are certain, certainly your, um, your ideas on the policy, I don't dis- disagree with them. But what, um, I, I wanna emphasize again is the, the, the urgency is not created. You said we were taking some, the, no action on this bill could possibly be taking something away from somebody. It cannot, at least for the next 12 months. [1:36:39] And the chairman's point is well taken. [1:36:40] Okay. I mean, I just want him, but that is, I don't mean that at all adversarially, but I understand what you're advocating for. And, and here's my hope, is that, that we would have a- additional longitudinal and test information. The gentleman said he's submitted it to the university system, so appreciate your comments and thank you for your patience in waiting this afternoon. [1:36:55] Thank you, Mr. Chair. [1:36:56] Sincerely mean that. Michael Torres. Oh, I'm sorry. Yes, I'm so- now I- I-- am I-- yeah, Mi- Michael, I got back to you. I'm sorry, Mr. Torres. I got back to the end of the, the line and saw CEO of the Classic Learning Test out there and, and, and it was you. Um, I would give you a, a minute if you had something that, um... Y- you don't have to use y- your time to speak answering our questions. If you have something else you'd like to add, I'd, I can ask you that. [1:37:19] I'm happy to, to recap my statement or respond to any, any other issues that come up across our conversation. [1:37:24] Okay. We- we'll, we'll move on to the other speakers, and I'll let, uh, you and, and, uh, Representative Rice close at the end. Stephanie, um, I'm, I'm gonna butcher your name again. Is it Ms. Guillory or- [1:37:35] Yeah. [1:37:35] Did I do that? Ma- Ms. Guillory. [1:37:38] Thank you, Chairman Martin. It is Stephanie Guillory. And Chairman, I wanna thank you and the members for this time today. Uh, Stephanie Guillory, ACT. I'd like to speak briefly about the fiscal impact of House Bill 1064. With the lack of a valid concordance that links a CLT score to the ACT or an SAT score, what that means is that the fiscal impact of the QBE and the Zell Miller Scholarship cannot be estimated. House Bill 1064 would allow the CLT to be used in determining state funding, K-12 public s- to be used in determining state funding to K-12 public school districts, similar to what was permitted in Florida. [1:38:17] And the lesson that we learned from Florida is that after enacting the CLT for K-12 use, it set a lower standard and created a loophole for districts to increase graduation rates, accountability ratings, and funding, which forced the department to come back two years later to increase the scores enacted by the legislature. Section 2 and Section 5 of House Bill 1064 opens the same door for districts in Georgia to exploit a lower standard on the CLT for state accountability ratings by testing students who would not otherwise score in a way that allows the district to meet state accountability on the ACT or the SAT. [1:38:56] Section 7 would expose the Zell Miller Scholarship and its finite resources to that same potential misuse. Briefly on test security, there are no published CLT policies for how to report cheating or how the company would detect or manage the cheating incidents that occur. CLT provides no evidence of test form rotation, real-time incident reporting, or proctor training. These are minimal safeguards which the CLT does not meet. Last week, it was mentioned that CLT did introduce a lockdown browser in 2025. [1:39:29] This was after nine years of remotely proctored exams where students had full access to the internet. So what this does is call into question the validity evidence that CLT does offer, even that non-peer reviewed 250-student sample study. And for reference, a peer-reviewed industry standard study consists of something like the 580,000 student sample size that was conducted between the ACT and the College Board, who produces the SAT. [1:39:59] I would say that as the university system of Georgia's Board of Regents considers allowing its public universities to accept the CLT in lieu of the SAT or the ACT, HB 1064 seems to sweep in and make very broad changes at every level of education. And so I would urge you to allow the Board of Regents to, to finalize its action before taking such a broad action about an assessment that we know so little about. With regard to the acceptance, the passage of the CLT in Louisiana in 2025, I'll say that one university in Louisiana accepts, um, the CLT for admission. [1:40:38] The state's flagship universities do not. In regards to career readiness, um, the CEO of CLT mentioned that the purpose of the CLT is not necessarily career readiness, and I'll say that the, the values of career readiness and, college and career readiness, those do not oppose classical education. And so I, I think it's important that we keep the conversation about how we prepare students, how we know that students are doing well, and not kind of a- assume that classical education and college and career readiness are opposing ideals. [1:41:14] Thank you. [1:41:14] Thank you, ma'am. And, um, um, as you, you, uh, gonna go to Maureen Foreman, um, let, let me just say this. Regardless of where we end up this year, I'm, I'm going to encour- I'm sorry, you had a question over here I were gonna get to, but I'm gonna encourage you, um, while I know it's in your best interest to represent the firm you, you're with and, and SAT to represent their firm, I'm gonna encourage you guys to do, um, what you can to create that concordance because I think the, the state and people are... [1:41:45] Choice is good. The gentleman that spoke before you is right. We just don't have that information now. You can either be part of the plan to get that information, or we'll, I'm, I believe we, we're gonna be in a position to help you with that. And, and I'd rather get it from you guys. So that, that is my, not admonishment, but it's that of my encouragement, uh, for you all as you to, um... Collabor-tition, I think is the word somebody invented. That's, uh, the c- collaboration and competition existing on the same plane. So I'm gonna encourage collabor-tition with, with you all. [1:42:16] Uh, you had a question from Chairman Carpenter, I believe. [1:42:20] Yes, sir. [1:42:20] Is there a way, uh, and, and I'm, I'm sure you don't have this information on you now, but is there a way to get this committee kind of graduation rates from college for each level of, of scores on the ACT? So at 21, we're graduating 50%. At 22, it's 55%. I would love to see that data from you and also from the SAT folks that are here. I mean, to me, that's important, right? Is if, as you come across these levels, who's actually getting to the finish line? 'Cause I think that's, that's an important conversation for me. [1:42:51] Yes, sir. That is important information, and we can provide you with that data. [1:42:56] Thank you very much. [1:42:57] Thank you. [1:42:58] Ms. Foreman. [1:43:02] I'm gonna remind you about the two to three minute thing. I didn't hold Ms. Gilory to it since I didn't remind her, but I'm gonna- That's fine. Thank you ... ask you to do the same. Thank you. Maureen Forman, SAT. Um, I'm here today from the state of Virginia. Uh, I'm representing, um, the SAT Assessment, uh, and the, the, uh, partnership that we have with over 12 states across the country, um, and our Department of Defense Education Agency. Um, I'm here today to speak, uh, on behalf of SAT, because right now, as, as Chairman, you've also mentioned, we just don't have evidence that the CLT is a comparable predictor of post-secondary, uh, readiness, nor is it aligned to Georgia's K12 standards. [1:43:41] Um, when we look at the test design, you can see, um, that there are over 80 questions in the reading and writing section and 40 math questions on the CLT. When we think about what it means to concord those scores, it's to say that that, uh, total score is indicative of, let's say in this example, a 1,200, um, whereas that would be an 83 on CLT, right? Um, if we're to say that those things are true, we need a body of evidence that says that the assessment itself is comparable, that it is looking at the same knowledge and skills in the same way that SAT and ACT are. [1:44:16] And that's how we're able to come together with over 580,000 students and look at concordable scores, so that when you're, uh... For example, the state of Kentucky, um, just made a change from ACT to SAT, but they're able to actually look back, uh, over time and not lose their trend history, um, of students that have, uh, gone to Kentucky's universities, um, and done, done well there as well. Um, those are important indicators of student success and persistence across higher education. Um, and that is really why, uh, concordance is so important. [1:44:48] Um, and Chairman, to your point, getting concordance right is incredibly important. Um, so we do wanna look at that along with assessment design and delivery and what these assessments are intended to be indicative of overall. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I will also en- encourage you for that collaboration, uh, you know, plan. Yes, ma'am. No, no questions. All right. Um, tr- um, Representative Rice, I'll give you the, the last word here on it for us this afternoon, and, uh, if you have anything you wanna, you wanna add before we adjourn. Okay. [1:45:18] Um, first of all, I just wanna say I appreciate the opportunity to bring this conversation, uh, because I do believe a new pathway, I mean, if you have a town with two doctors in it and a third heart, you know, two heart doctors and a third one moves in, it doesn't, the third one doesn't, can't not practice because they haven't, you know, haven't been there. Sometimes we, we need to open the doors, and, um, I trust our Board of Regents. When they, when they say that it's good for admissions, um, and they- I don't want you to [1:46:05] Am I able am I able to respond to a couple of the things? You have a few minutes. Yes, sir. All right. Thank you very much, 'cause there was a, a few things said in the, um, last couple of comments that were not correct. Sorry. First of all, the, uh, Florida Department of Education issue with the cut scores for graduation, um, the claim that they made is simply untrue. Um, this, uh... In June 2025, Juan Copa, the head of assessments at the Department of Education in Florida, presented to the State Board of Education in the state an independent study comparing the CLT, SAT, and ACT, and the FAST test, which is their state public exam, public school exam. [1:46:44] His conclusion, and I quote, was that, "The CLT is an equally rigorous, uh, alternative to the SAT and ACT." That's based off of thousands upon thousands of students in Florida who now take the exam to graduate from high school. Yes, CLT scores were increased by three points, uh, to qualify for that graduation, as our concordance is not of solely Florida public school students who are, uh, using the test to graduate. It's a national sample of students using it to go to college. Uh, however, the SAT's, uh, cut score, uh, for that same, uh, reason has been increased by 70 points since, uh, 2016. [1:47:19] Uh, this is because this is a common thing that the Florida Department of Education does. They commonly update their, their cut scores as they compare students' scores on the college entrance exams to those of the FAST test. Uh, I'd also like to, uh, highlight the fiscal impact issue. Um, Florida provides an excellent example of the fiscal impact issue. Because we've heard of, uh, this, uh, talking point come up during the course of conversation here in Georgia, I called the head of the Bright Futures program in Florida, uh, to ask how, uh, this could possibly be a talking point used. [1:47:52] He pointed me to all available public, uh, data on the Bright Futures program, which does not include which test was used for each student to graduate. Uh, so there's no way for them to know whether or not it's draining Florida of money. Uh, that said, if you look at the number of students who are qualifying for the Bright Futures program, it has not meaningfully increased since the CLT was approved, all while the population of students graduating from public high schools in the state has increased substantially. There has been no increase or cut fiscal impact on Florida because of CLT's inclusion. CLT's inclusion does not change the pool, uh, pool of students who can qualify for an exam. [1:48:26] It just adds another option. Um, one more point, uh, the University System of Georgia, University System of North Carolina, which includes the fifth-ranked public university system in the country, uh, are not incorrect when they decided that CLT's concordance and our technical report are valid. They will be using them for admissions to some of the best co- uh, universities in the country. Um, that is because it has been used by m- uh, by several universities for several years now. It is not invalid. It is very, very much a valid concordance. [1:48:58] That said, we would love to coordinate with the other exams if they would be willing to do so, but they cannot because they've changed their exams so much over the last, uh, couple years that they need to spend a couple more years gathering data. At least that's what we've heard from several third parties who are trying to help us do that concordance because it's such a common talking point. [1:49:15] Uh, one last point on rigor. Uh, the SAT presenter said that the CLT, particularly harping on the math section, is not as rigorous as math on the SAT, and, and she cited the number of questions. We have 40 questions on the math. They have 44, not a meaningful difference. Uh, we cover the same subject matter as the SAT and ACT, Algebra 1, Algebra 2, Geometry, Trigonometry. Uh, the only area that we don't cover in the same manner is statistics because that requires a graphing calculator. We don't allow graphing calculators. Students have to do their math by hand. [1:49:45] That's an implicit assessment of their ability to do math without technological assistance, and it's one of the reasons why only one student has ever earned a perfect score on the CLT. Uh, zero students out of two, nearly 200,000 who took it last year earned a perfect score. It's a very, very difficult exam, and it's one of the reasons why so many university systems are now using it for admissions, and a growing number of states are using it to qualify students for scholarships. I'll leave it at that. There's more said that I'd, I'd love to refute, but I know we're, we're going long. [1:50:14] Tha- thank you, and, uh, thank you, Representative Rice. L- uh, allow me to, to end, end on a, a, a positive note, and, and, um, use to, a word that doesn't ex- exist in the, the dictionary. Um, besides that, maybe I could pass your test, uh, when I use collabor-tition. But I, I, I seriously mean that. No, I do not question the validity of your test. The, the, the point, um, that I have right now is that, um, we are in a position where this is not negatively impactful to, to get additional information for us. So I encourage you to get some questions answered for the members, um, and we'll, we'll continue forward. [1:50:50] So this is in no way reflective of, of your, uh, your product. I, I don't know it. Um, what it is, is I, I cannot right now, a- as chair of this committee in good conscience, know if 86 is the right number or not. Um, you, you put it in the bill. Um, I, I think you believe that to be the right number. I, I don't know i- if it is. Um, and so just don't take away anything that I've said, 'cause clearly I have not communicated, um, uh, right. Um, the, the lady to my left here, the representative, thought I called her a man, and I was saying, "Ma'am." So I've, um, had a little trouble with that this morning. [1:51:26] But all, all seriousness is, uh, you know, we would love to give the students of Georgia another option and look forward to working with you as we move forward to do so. With that, thank you, Representative. Thank you for coming. Thank, uh, everyone in the audience. Is there any further business before the committee? We'll be getting together again next Wednesday. If there's no further business, we'll stand adjourned without objection. I see none. We are adjourned.