--- title: Senate Transportation Committee, February 18, 2026 collection: meetings id: 2026-02-18/senate-transportation cite_as: Senate Transportation Committee, February 18, 2026, video https://vimeo.com/1165827950 (machine transcript by Georgia Commons) canonical_url: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-02-18/senate-transportation md_url: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-02-18/senate-transportation.md text_url: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-02-18/senate-transportation/text source_url: https://vimeo.com/1165827950 date: 2026-02-18 status: machine transcript corpus_version: meetings-2026-10-23-8c15ead0f18d license: Machine transcript and summaries by Georgia Commons from the General Assembly's public video; the video stays on the General Assembly's Vimeo channel; see about.md publisher: Georgia Commons, an independent project of Georgia Civic Data. Not the State of Georgia. Not legal advice. up: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-02-18.md previous: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-02-18/house-human-relations-and-aging.md next: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-02-18/house-ways-and-means.md index: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/index.md chamber: Senate body: Senate Transportation Committee body_url: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/senate-transportation.md meeting_kind: committee session: 2025-2026 Regular Session start_time: 2026-02-18T08:00:00-05:00 location: 450 CAP duration_seconds: 5684.0 video_id: 1165827950 video_title: 02/18/2026 Senate Committee on Transportation agenda_url: https://www.legis.ga.gov/api/document/agendas/senate/TransportationAgenda2.18.26.pdf bills_discussed: - SB 511 summaries_model: gpt-6.1-sol transcript_turns: 367 transcript_chars: 81114 parts: - https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-02-18/senate-transportation.md?start=0 - https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-02-18/senate-transportation.md?start=59895 --- # Senate Transportation Committee, February 18, 2026 Senate Transportation Committee; February 18, 2026; 2025-2026 Regular Session. Video, on the General Assembly's Vimeo channel: https://vimeo.com/1165827950. Agenda: https://www.legis.ga.gov/api/document/agendas/senate/TransportationAgenda2.18.26.pdf. > This is a machine transcript of the General Assembly's video, made by a speech-recognition model. It is not an official record and can mishear words, names, and numbers. Speakers are not identified. The video is the record: every timestamp links to the moment it plays. ## Summary written by Georgia Commons Written by gpt-6.1-sol from the transcript below. It is not part of the record. Quote the transcript or the video, not the summary. The committee held a hearing on [SB 511](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/sb511), which the sponsor described as protecting boat passage through streams, including those classified as non-navigable. Supporters said it would clarify existing passage rights and protect outdoor recreation businesses. Opponents said it would take away private property rights and could interfere with farming and privately managed trout streams. The chair requested a legal opinion on the competing interpretations of Georgia law. No amendment or vote was recorded, and the hearing ended without a decision on the bill. ## Bills discussed (1) Each account was written by gpt-6.1-sol from the stretch of the transcript it names. The bill's number is said in that stretch, unless it was the only bill on a committee's agenda. ### SB 511. "Georgia River Heritage Act"; enact [SB 511](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/sb511) (2025-2026 Regular Session). From [0:48:29](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2909s), turns 114 to 365. The sponsor said [SB 511](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/sb511) would protect passage through streams without authorizing use of private banks, hunting or fishing. Asked about ownership of both banks, the sponsor said boaters could pass if they entered and exited lawfully. A member requested clearer fishing language after the sponsor distinguished stocked trout from naturally occurring fish. A tourism lobbyist and Georgia Rivers witnesses said uncertain access threatens outfitters, jobs and tourism. An attorney supporting Georgia Rivers described being stopped while canoeing the upper Chattahoochee and later facing a trespass warrant. The attorney argued that historical court decisions preserve public passage on some privately owned streambeds. Georgia Farm Bureau disputed that interpretation, arguing that passage rights apply only to navigable waters and that the bill would take property rights without compensation. A Georgia Agribusiness Council witness raised concerns about cattle and fences across streams; a member shared those concerns. Asked whether farmers could block boat passage, the supporting attorney said fences should accommodate boats. Several members opposed expanding access, and a visiting senator cited investments in private trout streams. The chair requested a legal opinion on whether Georgia law recognizes one or two types of non-navigable streams. The sponsor welcomed continued discussion. No amendment or vote was recorded. > The transcript runs 81,114 characters. A reader that cannot take it at once can read it in 2 parts: part 1 https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-02-18/senate-transportation.md?start=0; part 2 https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-02-18/senate-transportation.md?start=59895. ## Transcript (367 turns) [0:26:16](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1576s) What are you on there, four? [0:26:18](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1578s) I am. Thank you, Chairman. Thank you, uh, Senator Dickerson, for being here. And, uh, we'll go ahead and pray for everybody else that's not here yet. Uh, Heavenly Father, thank you for this glorious day. Thank you for this, uh, this world that you've created. Thank you for, uh, the members of this committee and for everyone here in attendance, uh, to learn more about rivers that you have created, um, long before we were here and will be here long after we're gone. [0:26:48](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1608s) Uh, God, please, uh, just keep us ever mindful of the beautiful, um, state that you have created for us, the land, the sky, everything that grows on it and flows through it. In Jesus' name, amen. [0:27:01](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1621s) Amen. All right. Welcome to the Senate Transportation Committee. As we get started here, um, wanna recognize the newest member of the committee, and, um, my neighbor in Cherokee County, Mr. Ja- Jason Dickerson, who has a, uh, significant actually work history, uh, moving freight- [0:27:25](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1645s) That is correct [0:27:25](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1645s) ... all over the country. Um, Senator, would love just to welcome you to the committee and then give you a minute, um, if you don't mind, if you wanna introduce yourself to committee members and people that are here. [0:27:33](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1653s) Yeah. [0:27:33](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1653s) Just tell us a little about yourself and why you're excited to be on the most requested committee- ... uh, in the Georgia State Senate. [0:27:41](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1661s) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good morning, everyone. Uh, my name's, uh, Jason T. Dickerson. I'm, uh, proud to represent Georgia's 21st Senate District. That's part of Cherokee County and the north part of Fulton County, Milton, Alpharetta, and Avalon. Um, you know, for me, I'm a lifelong resident of Cherokee County, and, um, some of you may or may not know, but, uh, one of the first companies I started, uh, when I was 15 years old, was a transportation company. I've got 32 years in transportation experience, deal with the EPA, uh, 32 different environmental agencies and governmental agencies across the United States. So, uh, I've got a wide range of background, from warehousing to transportation, both in a, on asset base for trucks, uh, uh, airplanes as well, aircraft, and, uh, and trains. [0:28:19](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1699s) And so, uh, just always, uh, uh, I'm very extremely grateful, uh, for Chairman Dolezal to, to allow me to be on this committee a- and to see what, uh, what we can do here for the great state of Georgia. So, thanks so much, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate it. [0:28:31](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1711s) Absolutely. We are glad you're here. You know, this committee over the last couple of years, along with the House, has done a significant amount of work, uh, envisioning, planning for, setting up, and then ultimately last year funding our freight and logistics program in the state of Georgia. And we recognize, um, through the work done by GDOT and some other consultants, the, the need to fund a freight network in Georgia. Uh, we put that in place with legislation two sessions ago, funded it last year, and your expertise in that area will be a welcome one, uh, to this committee. [0:29:02](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1742s) Thank you. [0:29:02](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1742s) So thank you for being here today. [0:29:03](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1743s) Thank you. I appreciate it. [0:29:05](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1745s) Um, before we get started with our 26-line bill that we're gonna, uh, con- uh, consider today, just a little bill, um, I want to also recognize Pro Tem Walker from the great middle Georgia city of Perry. And, you know, I'm not sure if you guys have this issue down there or not, but, um, Chairman, or Senator Dickerson and I certainly do, and, and Senator S- Still as well. [0:29:35](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1775s) Do you know what OCGA 40-6-71 says? [0:29:43](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1783s) No, sir. [0:29:45](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1785s) Well, it says that, "The driver of a vehicle intending to turn l- the left within an intersection or an alley, private road, or driveway shall yield the right of way to any vehicle approaching from the opposite direction." And Mr. Pro Tem, you wouldn't believe it. So what the law plainly says is that left turns yield to oncoming traffic, including a right turn. Well, all over the northwest suburbs, ground zero for this is Forsyth County, there are yield signs in almost every intersection telling people turning right to yield to people turning left, in direct conflict with the plain reading- [0:30:26](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1826s) Hmm [0:30:26](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1826s) ... and, and language of the law. And I have lobbied my friends heavily at GDOT, uh, and continue to lobby my friends to provide some guidance here because it creates tremendous confusion. If you could imagine turning left and wanting to follow the law, so you're yielding to a right turn person, but meanwhile, the right turn person is yielding to you because a s- a sign that you can't see, 'cause it's facing them, is telling them to yield. And it turns into what I colloquially refer to as the Forsyth County dance, where per- the right person yields, the left person yields, both people sit there, and it creates tremendous confusion. [0:31:03](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1863s) Senator Still, have you noticed this just dramatic proliferation of right turn yield signs in our area? [0:31:08](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1868s) I, I, I have, Chairman, but I, I think to the point in, for the, the good of the committee, it should be noted on record that Chairman Dolezal has never made a left turn in his life. He always, always turns right. [0:31:24](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1884s) This is very true. [0:31:25](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1885s) And, uh, legally. [0:31:27](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1887s) Well, we are gonna open every committee, um, this year w- with citing that, um, and having discussion about the, the ridiculous nature of these right turn yield signs that were just invented by some county engineers, um, and have now become the standard. Um, it, it's not even at intersections necessarily, like stop sign, or, or sorry, red light intersections. You can wanna turn right into your neighborhood and have to yield to somebody turning left off of just a two-lane road. It's crazy. Pro Tem, do you have any insight on what we could do to fix this problem? [0:31:57](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1917s) That sounds incredibly frustrating, and, uh, I'm not surprised that you all in the northern suburbs operate that way. We, we don't where I live, but- ... but I will say it's, it's, uh, I think, you know, the solution would've been a class action lawsuit, but we passed tort reform, and so- ... that's off the table. [0:32:20](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1940s) Fair enough. I think we're losing our trial lawyers, uh, in the, in the, in the caucus, though I understand we got one incoming as well. So, um, we do wanna talk about an important piece of legislation, um, that although it is only 26 lines, um, it does deserve our serious consideration. Um, and so we're gonna do a hearing on this today. Um, Senator Still, you're welcome to present the bill from there, there, or there, uh, whichever. What is up there? Oh, some folks. Okay, that's gonna be for you. [0:32:50](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1970s) Yeah. Okay, fantastic. Uh, would you like to present- [0:32:53](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1973s) Yeah, read them all [0:32:53](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1973s) ... present the bill from there? [0:32:54](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1974s) If I could present from here- [0:32:55](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1975s) Sure [0:32:55](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1975s) ... 'cause a lot of folks are gonna be coming up to speak to it after. [0:32:57](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1977s) Great. Great. [0:32:59](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=1979s) Uh, Chairman, thank you. Committee, uh, members of the audience, thank y'all for being here. Thanks for, uh, for getting up for this really important bill. This is, um, Georgia River heritage. That's what this is about. And I have a particular interest in this, uh, not for the State of Georgia, but just holistically and globally. Um, I have spent, uh, the majority of my life involved with and owning a white water rafting and kayak instruction outfitter. I'll get that. Frank, it's okay. Um, so we, we operate not in Georgia, so I have no vested interest in this, uh, personally other than just personal. [0:33:38](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2018s) And what I can say to you is this: we operate in North Carolina, Tennessee, uh, Ecuador, Costa Rica, all over the world, uh, with, with our paddling. And so I understand intimately the rite of passage. I understand why it is important for recreational boaters to understand the ability to take their family, themselves, a guided trip on a navigable, uh, river, stream, creek, whatever it may be. [0:34:12](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2052s) And so if you look at the information sheet, uh, that each of you have, there's a, a one-page flyer called Freedom to Float: Protecting Georgia's Outdoor Recreation Economy. If you look at the back of it, I think this is what you'll find, uh, most interesting, uh, the third paragraph, um, going back to the nine- uh, 1863 definition of, uh, navigable and what that means and why, uh, we need to, to really protect this rite of passage, we need to enshrine this in law. [0:34:45](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2085s) Now, I will tell you, this, this bill was written broadly for the purposes of this committee so that it covers all rivers and streams. We acknowledge that there are streams, and I'll just mention one in particular, the Sequoyah in Habersham County, where people make a living. Just that section of that stream is used exclusively for trout fishing. We recognize that that's not considered a, a navigable, um, body of water, but there are many... [0:35:19](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2119s) There are. And you'll hear testimony today from one person in particular who's gonna tell the story about paddling the upper Chattahoochee on a guided trip with an outfitter, with his family, who was harassed significantly, uh, for being in a, a very well-recognized, uh, body of water in, in doing that. And so recreational boating is an inherent right of all Georgians, Americans. Um, Georgia has some quirky laws about that, defining property lines and, and where someone can and cannot go. [0:35:57](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2157s) Um, we know that there are friends that are gonna testify today that are in opposition to this bill, and their perspective is valid. They're gonna be talking about property rights. They're gonna talk about, you know, using water streams for agriculture, um, for crops, for, um, for cattle, and, and those are very, very valid. And I think that we need to listen to all of that, and that's why I asked Chairman Dolezal for a hearing on this, so that we could begin this conversation and really explore the depth of what it involves and all the different moving parts of who it affects, um, and without him having to answer questions. [0:36:36](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2196s) But we do have several folks that, uh, wish to testify to the committee this morning, uh, that have come a long way to, to give us their, um, their perspective. And, um, uh, I think that their testimony will certainly give the committee more, um, to ponder and more understanding of, of what we have here, so. [0:36:56](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2216s) Can you walk us through what Georgia law is today and what this bill specifically would change about Georgia law? [0:37:05](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2225s) So what this... If, if you'll just refer to the bill, right, and, and we look at, at where we have, um... Look at, uh, line nine, right? Like, so we're looking at relating to water rights, amended exclusive possession by owner of non-navigable streams and interference. We're adding lines 13 so that the General Assembly, that we have no power to compel or interfere with an owner's lawful use of a non-navigable stream for the benefit of those. And, and there's just, there's confusion on that, Chairman, because property lines sometimes cross both sides of a river. [0:37:41](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2261s) Sometimes they go to the bank. Sometimes they go to the center of a river. And if you think about a river as it flows, let's just use for simple explanation north to south, that line moves. And so as a, as a river flows through, um, a piece of private property, through a city, through a county, as it goes all the way through the state, those lines move. And so, um, unfortunately, uh, through the study committee that the House did last year, it actually brought more questions than answers about that. And so, uh, this just tries to bring some clarification to it, because it does have, um, a lot of ambiguity over, um, where those property lines are [0:38:23](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2303s) Great. So functionally, [0:38:27](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2307s) currently if there's a property line that's in the middle of a stream, I can't ride a kayak down that stream. [0:38:33](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2313s) That would be the argument of that property owner, yes. [0:38:35](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2315s) And you are codifying into law here that I would be able to traverse the stream solely for passage. [0:38:42](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2322s) Solely for passage. Not to get out of your boat, not to hunt, not to fish, not to do anything to disturb the land on, on the banks. Correct. [0:38:49](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2329s) Okay. All right. Any questions for Chairman Still before we get to folks who want to speak on this? All right. [0:38:58](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2338s) Mr. Chairman. [0:38:59](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2339s) Uh, yes. Chairman Burns on three. [0:39:02](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2342s) Um, just a point of, of clarification. If, um, if a property owner owned both sides of the stream, had property on both sides of the stream, your bill would still allow right of passage through that stream wh- in the, in the stream flow or the river flow. Is that correct? [0:39:21](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2361s) If they were able to originate upstream of that flow through it- [0:39:24](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2364s) So if they did not put their boat in on that private property's land, they put it in at a public access point or at a, uh, an- [0:39:31](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2371s) A launch site [0:39:32](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2372s) ... a la- a lawful site, then they could passage even though the property owner owned both sides of the stream? [0:39:37](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2377s) Correct. They just- Because they don't own the water, right? That's, that's the point, is that the, the water's flowing through the property, but it's not stagnant. It's not a pond or a lake sitting stagnant on that land. It's flowing through it, and as long as there are place for them to be able to exit in some public access way or with permission from an owner, then they should be able to do so. [0:39:59](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2399s) Or an outfitter might have a landing or whatever. And a- [0:40:01](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2401s) Correct [0:40:01](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2401s) ... you know, I've, I've, I've kayaked down the Etowah. Uh, I, I, I am con- concerned about your comment. I, I'm not allowed to fish on the stream? [0:40:09](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2409s) If it's marked as private land. If someone is stocking that trout stream or some section of it, and they're saying, "You know, this is private, and we're stocking this for- [0:40:17](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2417s) W- w- [0:40:17](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2417s) ... commercial purposes-" [0:40:18](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2418s) W- [0:40:18](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2418s) ... that someone's not gonna float through, fish out their crop, and take it with them. [0:40:22](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2422s) Okay. And but my, my ... If I could, Mr. Chairman. [0:40:25](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2425s) Mm-hmm. [0:40:25](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2425s) Uh, follow-up. I- if I don't own both sides of the stream and I'm float fishing down the stream, could I have access? It might, it, it, it might be difficult for him to contain the fish within his property boundary. [0:40:44](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2444s) Correct. If it's natural fish, natural flow, it's not being stocked and maintained. And I use the example of the Soque. So on that river, it's very shallow. [0:40:56](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2456s) Yep. [0:40:56](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2456s) I've, um, I've fished it. [0:40:58](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2458s) Wa- waded it. [0:40:59](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2459s) You're, you wade it in about knee-deep water. [0:41:00](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2460s) Yep. [0:41:01](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2461s) Um, those are trophy trout- [0:41:03](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2463s) Yep [0:41:04](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2464s) ... that are fed and maintained, and they're, they're stationary in that one area. [0:41:07](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2467s) Sure. [0:41:07](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2467s) They don't leave. [0:41:08](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2468s) Yep. [0:41:08](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2468s) That's, that's where they live. [0:41:09](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2469s) That's right. That's right. [0:41:09](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2469s) That's their home. [0:41:10](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2470s) Okay. [0:41:10](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2470s) So that's, that's the type that we're talking about. [0:41:13](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2473s) I, I would like that clarified, please, then. [0:41:15](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2475s) Yes, sir. [0:41:16](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2476s) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [0:41:18](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2478s) All right, so we are gonna give, um ... Oh, sorry. Uh, Senator Ginn on five. [0:41:23](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2483s) Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator, uh, uh, to my esteemed colleague, I'll ask you, the, uh ... Do you have any idea of what the rules or regulations are on flying an airplane, the, uh, over your home? The, uh ... Uh, if, if somebody wants to fly an airplane, the, over your h- over your home, the, uh ... 'Cause we're talking about, you know, uh, land, water, and air. The, uh ... If somebody wants to fly an airplane over your home, is there any restrictions that you know about on that? [0:41:57](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2517s) Well, the FAA has restrictions on the elevation that you can fly at, yes. [0:42:00](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2520s) And do you know what that is? [0:42:02](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2522s) Uh, I don't, since I'm not a pilot. [0:42:04](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2524s) I believe, I believe, and maybe we've got a more learned crew here, but I believe it's 500 feet. You gotta maintain 500 feet above somebody's property, the, uh, so you're not interfering with their opportunity. I'm curious. I said, "Okay." The, uh ... When you have a stream, said the, uh ... 'Cause it depends on whether it's raining or not, whether sometimes you have these streams or not, said the, uh ... Oh. When you say, uh, public access, would that be where a roadway crosses the s- the stream, there's a culvert, the, uh, at a, uh, county or city or sh- state roadway? [0:42:39](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2559s) Would that be a public access point? [0:42:42](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2562s) Some roads do have launches, some don't. So it depends on if you've got a safe place to be able to launch and a safe place to exit. You can't launch and exit from someone's private property without their permission, though. [0:42:52](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2572s) Well, but I've, I've, I've actually worked the, uh, to build a launch on a state, state highway, the, uh, at the Madison Elbert County line on the Broad River- [0:43:01](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2581s) Great [0:43:01](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2581s) ... the, uh, to, to create a public access point. [0:43:04](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2584s) Right. [0:43:04](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2584s) The, uh ... But one of the things that, for me, and I, I, I understand what you're trying to do, but I think that, uh, this would be a grave taking of property, the, uh, uh, for private landowners all over the state, and that's where, to me, as a ... Uh, I'm looking for some way that, that most of the river, uh, owners that I talk to, where they, they own, uh, the bed of the stream, they own the stream, the, uh, and the properties is, is ... [0:43:37](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2617s) There are kayakers that are going across their stream. Most of them have not ever told me that, or none of them have ever told me they wanna stop kayakers from going down something like the Broad River in my district. And, uh- [0:43:50](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2630s) The Broad's a pretty significantly traveled river, though. [0:43:54](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2634s) But, but that's where, to me, I, I, I can see, you know, I have creeks and streams on my property, and, uh, I don't wanna give somebody access to my property, uh, just because th- they, uh ... What you're doing here, I'm like, it's just like I don't wanna give somebody, uh, flying an airplane right over my house. The, uh, and I'm just trying to figure out the, uh, [0:44:21](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2661s) what motivated the bill [0:44:24](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2664s) I, I think you'll hear about that through testimony, through people's stories about where, um, the line has definitely been blurred between people launching for recreational boating on the Broad River and, or maybe the upper Chattahoochee and then all of a sudden someone felt that their property rights were being infringed and then tried to stop them from doing so on a commercially accessible river. [0:44:48](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2688s) And that's a good transition point to get into some of this testimony. We'll come back and have discussion and questions afterwards. I'm gonna ask, um, just 'cause we have a number of meetings that we're pressing up against at this point, I'm gonna ask speakers to keep your, uh, comments to three minutes. Please, um, try to give us new information. I'm not gonna buzz you off, but just, uh, please don't go on for 15 minutes and make me, uh, call the next person up. We're gonna start with Jennings Hughes. Uh, speakers can step up to the podium there. I'll keep the podium mic on. Just introduce us, tell us, um, who you are, if you're here on behalf of anyone, certainly if you're a lobbyist please let us know that, and then tell us your thoughts on the bill. [0:45:24](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2724s) Thank you chairman, thank you senators. I'm Jennings Hughes. I am a lobbyist. I lobby on behalf of the Georgia Association of Convention and Visitors Bureaus. Tourism is our big issue. Um, this is just a piece of tourism. Geo- people come to Georgia, they float, they fish, they boat. Um, we just kind of wanna have y'all consider the economic impact of those industries. There are gonna be a lot of experts today who, you know, they operate a, a kayak operation. They, they help people fish for lovely trout. [0:45:56](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2756s) Um, I appreciate it's a difficult conversation y'all are having. We, uh, we just want y'all to consider tourism, and, uh, would like to hear from Rena and Joe and the people at Georgia Rivers later, and thank you Senator F- Still for carrying the bill. If y'all have any questions about tourism, I'm always here to help. So. [0:46:14](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2774s) Thank you, Mr. Hughes. And Rena, he set you up. You're up next. [0:46:17](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2777s) Yeah. Thank you, Senator. My name is Rena Peck. I'm executive director of Georgia Rivers. We run the Water Trails program for the state. Um, Joe Cook is head of Paddle Georgia, and will speak with y'all later and can answer some of those legal questions, along with some others. Um, the way I explain it is hunting and fishing are tied to the land. Floating is not. [0:46:48](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2808s) It's, it's an easement. Just like you've got private landowners along St. Simons Beach, that beach is a public easement for people to walk up and down, and so are our rivers based on common law from the beginning of Georgia, American, 250 years ago. Um, I would like to read just a quick statement from Clay Courts. He is one of the, um, ownership group of Nantahala Outdoor Center. They employ 600 people, and, um, wanted to, wanted me to read this to y'all. [0:47:24](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2844s) Clay Courts: As the owner of NOC, our business model depends upon boating passage down small rivers like the Cartooche, Chattahoochee, and Chattooga. Each of these streams would likely fall under the category of non-navigable based on some interpretations of Georgia's current definition of navigable. This bill provides certainty for our operations by affirming the right to pass down small, non-navigable streams. Non-navigable doesn't mean they're not floatable. [0:47:56](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2876s) So you can float down non-navigable streams just like navigable streams. That was my two cents. Back, back to Clay. Um, so it also promotes outdoor recreation tourism and related jobs in Georgia while putting Georgia on a level playing field with neighboring states where such policies are already in place, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, Florida. Um, again, um, Clay Courts, I urge you to vote yes on Senate Bill 511 and to protect these jobs, and enable us to grow our business in Georgia. [0:48:38](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2918s) Thank you. [0:48:38](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2918s) Thank you. Yeah, I've actually got a question for you- [0:48:41](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2921s) Great [0:48:41](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2921s) ... Ms. Peck, as well. Um, so y- your contention is essentially that up until some point in time in Georgia- ... common law provided for passage on these nan- non-navigable streams. Somebody wrote, excuse me, somebody wrote the current language into law, and that has essentially i- in your view changed what is, what has been common law or at least precedent in Georgia up until when? When, when did that change happen? [0:49:06](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2946s) It depends when, and I'm, I'm not the attorney. [0:49:08](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2948s) Okay. [0:49:09](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2949s) But it's our interpretation that based on common law, if you can float it, you can boat it. [0:49:15](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2955s) So, [0:49:19](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2959s) um, I think the pro tem's got a question for you. [0:49:22](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2962s) Okay. [0:49:22](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2962s) Um, I've, I've known him for eight years, never seen anybody trigger him that way. That was interesting. I think he might disagree with you. Um, so as, as it relates to, to the Nantahala gentleman that you mentioned- [0:49:35](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2975s) Yes [0:49:35](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2975s) ... obviously he has a functioning business. The, the, he's operating, sending tubes or rafts or whatever he's sending down these streams. [0:49:41](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2981s) Right. [0:49:41](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2981s) His contention is he has fear that under this law that somebody could make a claim that they should not be able to do that. [0:49:47](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2987s) Right. [0:49:48](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2988s) Is that correct? [0:49:48](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=2988s) One, one landowner on non-navigable stream, um, if they think that they've got the law on their side could say, "Hey, you can't pass by here," and that could shut down Nantahala Outdoor Center, which is a big employer in our state. [0:50:06](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3006s) But not knowing the, when this law came into place, he's been operating, I'm assuming, for decades under the current law without any sort of issues. So- [0:50:13](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3013s) That's right [0:50:14](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3014s) ... help me, help me understand what the actual issue is as opposed to some fear that something could happen. What's not happening today that y'all are trying to solve for? [0:50:22](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3022s) Uh, what's not happening today is some, um, groups, paddling groups from Florida for example, are scared to come into Georgia for fear they might be arrested Um, so there are other examples of where, um, paddlers have been asked not to come through, and so that's what's happening, is that- [0:50:45](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3045s) Do you know of any- [0:50:45](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3045s) ... we're shrinking our use of our water trails which bring such wonderful rural economic development. [0:50:50](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3050s) So some landowner comes out and yells at somebody who's floating down the river and says, "Hey, I own the river. Go away," but, um, that may still happen even if this law passes. I'm, I'm thinking about... So have there been arrests that you know of, uh, under this law? [0:51:07](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3067s) I think, I think there have, yes. [0:51:09](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3069s) Okay. [0:51:09](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3069s) And, um, we have one person here from, um, Native Fish Coalition who's run into this issue as well. [0:51:15](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3075s) Okay. Um, I think it's, um, Pro Tem Walker. [0:51:22](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3082s) So I'm certainly... Hey, Rena. [0:51:23](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3083s) Hey. [0:51:24](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3084s) I'm certainly no expert in this issue, but I know it's been debated and discussed ad nauseam for a number of years. Um, I thought we had sort of resolved this. I think it was maybe in the '24 session. [0:51:37](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3097s) Mm-hmm. [0:51:38](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3098s) Um, but clearly not. Um, so I, my understanding is that c- in nowhere in Georgia statutory or common law has there been public ownership of waters or land under non-navigable streams. Um, you, Georgia law allows you, allows the property owner to own the, the bed of the creek- [0:52:05](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3125s) Mm-hmm [0:52:05](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3125s) ... if it's non-navigable, and it, that's often the case where you have two property owners on either side that own it to the center. [0:52:13](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3133s) Right. [0:52:14](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3134s) I mean, this is a, clearly the, a major shift in, uh, public policy and is a taking of private property. Um, I, I just, I can't fathom that we would do this. Um, so- [0:52:29](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3149s) So that's the second- [0:52:30](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3150s) I'm glad to respond. [0:52:31](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3151s) Yeah, I'd love to hear- [0:52:31](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3151s) Okay [0:52:32](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3152s) ... 'cause that's the second reference to this- [0:52:33](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3153s) And I, fathom was not, I didn't mean, that's no pun there, but. [0:52:36](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3156s) Yes. Um, no, the right to float is there. Um, there have been a misinterpretation by some that you're not allowed to float down any Georgia stream, whether it's deemed navigable or non-navigable. [0:52:55](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3175s) Well, then why, if that's the case, why have we tried to parse the definition of navigable and non-navigable for decades- [0:53:04](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3184s) Yes [0:53:04](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3184s) ... if that wasn't the key point? [0:53:07](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3187s) The key- [0:53:07](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3187s) I mean- [0:53:07](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3187s) Yeah, the key point [0:53:08](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3188s) ... if, if y- if your contention is you have the right to float and you always have, then why have we been having this debate for so long really? I, I don't, I don't think you're correct in that, but. [0:53:20](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3200s) Well, the debate on navigable, non-navigable has to do with hunting and fishing. [0:53:27](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3207s) Well- [0:53:27](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3207s) Not floating [0:53:28](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3208s) ... I, I don't, I just don't agree, but. [0:53:30](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3210s) That's, okay. But Larry, I would love for my lawyer friends to answer that better than I did, so, so I'm sure they will. [0:53:36](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3216s) You got one more question, then we'll get to the lawyers. [0:53:39](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3219s) Okay. [0:53:39](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3219s) Um, Senator Ginn. [0:53:41](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3221s) Rena, good to have you here. [0:53:42](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3222s) Thank you. [0:53:42](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3222s) Um, you know, one of the things that for me, I wanna make sure you understand, I get it. There's a lot of business out there that does a lot of things, but you know I have to look at private property rights and what's going on. [0:53:53](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3233s) Mm-hmm. [0:53:53](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3233s) Those businesses, their model is to go across other people's property. And so when I look at, okay, let's, let's fast-forward. Y- you've got a creek going across your property, and they wanna float down your creek, and you decide, "Well, you know, I own a gazillion acres here, and I've decided I wanna, I wanna build a nice lake, so I build a 500-acre lake," you know? They, uh, somebody's navigating down the, the creek that's feeding into your lake. Now do they get to float all over your, your, your lake? [0:54:23](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3263s) It's not your lake. It's, it's their lake because it's got a stream coming into it. [0:54:28](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3268s) I would say no. [0:54:28](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3268s) What's, what's the- [0:54:29](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3269s) I would say no because there's probably a dam there, and so they'd have to get out on the, on the, on the ground, and that would be trespassing. [0:54:37](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3277s) But, but they got to your lake via a, quote, oh, non-navigable stream. The, uh, the n- hey, I'm just asking- [0:54:46](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3286s) Mm-hmm [0:54:46](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3286s) ... you know, did that property just become public access? The, uh, because to me, their business model of floating down somebody else's property is only at the behest of those people that own that property. And to me, you know, I, there's nothing that would prevent those, uh, outdoor sports from saying, "Hey, let's work an agreement with those property owners to do this." To me, the problem is the disrespect that happens with, uh... And, and I know you, you promote good boaters, and good, uh, kayakers and things there. [0:55:17](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3317s) Mm-hmm. [0:55:17](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3317s) We have a lot of people that float down these streams that are very disruptive to the property owners, and that's the complaint that I get, and that's the why, uh, when I look at this, I'm like, "Okay, I wanna try to make sure that, uh, we, we do work together to find- [0:55:32](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3332s) Mm-hmm [0:55:32](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3332s) ... some type of solution," but, but allowing in state law, uh, trespass on somebody's property, I won't do it. [0:55:39](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3339s) No. I don't wanna do any trespass either. [0:55:43](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3343s) All right. [0:55:43](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3343s) But floating through property is not trespassing. [0:55:48](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3348s) Thank you, Rena. [0:55:48](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3348s) Thank you. [0:55:49](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3349s) That helped, I think, frame the conversation pretty well. [0:55:52](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3352s) Okay. [0:55:52](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3352s) Uh, Craig Pendergrass or Grass, um, your handwriting's about as bad as mine, um, so I apologize if I missed your name. But it says you are an attorney. Is that correct? [0:56:06](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3366s) Um, that is, that is true. Hey, um, and thank you, uh, Senator Still, for offering this along with your bipartisan, uh, co-sponsors. [0:56:15](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3375s) Can you tell us who you are, if you're here with anyone? [0:56:18](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3378s) Yes. So, um, I am supportive of, uh, the Georgia Rivers position. Um, I am an attorney, uh, lifelong Georgian, graduated from Georgia Law School in 1984. I do real estate law, um- ... envi- and water law are particular specialties. Um, I'm actually the person Senator Still referred to who had an experience, uh, earlier in my life with my wife and two friends where we were, um, uh, had been shuttled by an outfitter that still operates on the Upper Chattahoochee, um, south of Helen. [0:56:56](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3416s) Um, and we were canoeing on the section by Smith Island, uh, that's a very well-known, you know, nice, small rapid. And a gentleman was on the left side started yelling at us. He had a gun on a stump next to the river and he said, "Stop. Go back. You can't come down here. This is my river." And he waded out into the river, grabbed our canoes and wouldn't let us go down. [0:57:29](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3449s) He said, "I've called the sheriff." I said, "Okay." And we were very respectful and we, I knew to stay in the river. And, uh, the sheriff came out and he said, "You know, this guy's been doing that a good amount, um, and, uh, I don't know what the, the deal is, but, uh, maybe you could, uh..." And, and, and this guy owned t- the, to the island in the middle and the passable part of the river was on the left side, his side. [0:58:02](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3482s) And the sheriff said, "Well, why don't you just go walk across the island and go down the other side?" Which was non-paddleable, non-passable. We went down, and then, um, three months later I got a call from the Fulton County Sheriff saying that a warrant had been sworn out for my arrest for criminal trespass, um, out of Har- Habersham County for that. And I had to deal with that. Um, so- [0:58:32](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3512s) You said the river was which river? [0:58:34](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3514s) This was the Upper Chattahoochee River. [0:58:36](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3516s) Which is what classification does that have? [0:58:38](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3518s) In terms of pa- it- it's class one to class three. Smith Island is, you know, it's very, very, very paddleable. There, there's no, no question. [0:58:47](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3527s) I, I guess I'm trying to, would it be captured under this bill, or is it, is it nav- [0:58:50](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3530s) Yeah. Oh, yes [0:58:51](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3531s) ... so it's, it's, it's classified as non-navigable as- [0:58:53](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3533s) Yeah. If the rule of what's... And, and n- and the, there are multiple definitions of navigability which adds to this confusion and multiple implications. You've got federal definition of navigability, and then you've got state definition of navigability, and then the c- the, the common law said there were three types of streams, and this was in an 1849 Georgia Supreme Court decision, Young v. Harrison. Said there are three kind of streams. There are navigable streams which are limited to the arms of the sea, tidal waters. [0:59:30](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3570s) So basically fresh, any freshwater river was deemed non-navigable even though it could carry boat traffic. And it said, and then the, then there are two types of non-navigable streams. And the, and the bed ownership of non-navigable streams was privately owned, but the s- the, of those t- those two non-navigable stream types, one was ones that are capable of supporting boat passage. [1:00:05](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3605s) And the Supreme Court said those rivers are subject to an easement of passage, a common law easement of passage. And everybody who, property owner understands or should understand, y- hey, I have exclusive possession of my property, but if it's subject to an easement, then I've gotta allow the easement use. The user of the easement can't interfere with the rest of my property, but there's an easement, and that's what the common law is. [1:00:41](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3641s) Now, the third type of stream was a non-navigable stream that wouldn't support boat passage, and the Supreme Court said those streams are absolutely private. And so we're not talking about a situation of saying, oh, you can wade down my stream, this little stream that comes through a culvert. We're not really talking about rivers that are coming through, anything that's coming through a culvert. We're talking about r- things that would have a bridge upstream, big enough to need a bridge. [1:01:13](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3673s) And so those are, that's the difference. So the, and the, the, the catch is the, the way the statute defining what a navigable stream is now, which was an expansion in 1863 frankly of bed ownership r- uh, for pub- rights for public purposes. Uh, 'cause what, what matters about the bed ownership is, among other things, mining sand and gravel. It, and, you know, having your, your cattle go into it, having fishin- fishing rights attached to bed ownership. [1:01:47](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3707s) But none of that deals with passage rights 'cause these are nature's highways. Um, and since the beginning of the state, canoes have passed through these. But there ha- you, so I wasn't the only person who's had this sort of issue. There was a lawsuit in the '70s where a developer, I think it was Riverbend Apartments up on the, on the Chattahoochee in Atlanta, said, "People can't go down the river next to, up my land because I own to the middle of the Chattahoochee River here in Atlanta," where Nan Whaley Outdoor Center runs operations. [1:02:25](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3745s) And, and the, and they got a court to agree with them. Said, "Well, if it can't support deep draft- boats, and nothing in Georgia north of the fall line can support deep draft boats. Nothing in middle Georgia. Only thing that can support the deep draft barges is gonna be down s- way south on huge rivers. And so the- but then another case come along on the Dog River. This goes to a little bit of the question about the, owning the lake, where Douglas County b- built a reservoir on the Dog River, and they didn't want anybody coming into their reservoir. [1:03:09](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3789s) And a suit had to be brought on behalf of an outfitter that was doing, you know, kayak training on the b- on the Dog River. And it was brought in federal court, and the federal judge said, um, that is sub- that is federally navigable because it's being used for a commercial purpose. It's capable of it being used for a commercial purpose. Then you get other cases that go left and right. So what I'd say this law does is it is not a change in the law. [1:03:42](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3822s) It is a clarification, a confirmation of the common law easement that the Supreme Court recognized in 1849 and then recognized again in 1910 on the Chattahoochee near Columbus after the 1863 bill was passed. But again, when you get different judges and different sheriffs and different landowners and all they look at is this statute that says, "A navigable stream is one capable of supporting boats loaded with freight in the ordinary course of business," and they think, "Well, freight, that's barge. [1:04:30](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3870s) So if the only thing that is gonna be a navigable stream is a, is a deep draft barge," uh, then that sets the tone for this confusion. And so if you pass this leg- clarifying legislation, it's not changing what's the definition of a navigable stream for state law purposes. It is simply clarifying the exist- the longstanding existence of that easement. And this has implications on the Broad River in Athens for at where there are outfitters. [1:05:03](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3903s) It has implications on the Chattahoochee in Atlanta, the Chattahoochee in Columbus, the, the Etowah, the Broad, ev- all these places have outfitters. And- [1:05:15](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3915s) Any, any questions from the committee? All right, I think we- [1:05:19](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3919s) What was his name? [1:05:19](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3919s) Uh, his name is Craig Pender. Is it Grast? [1:05:22](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3922s) Pendergrass. [1:05:22](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3922s) P- R-A-S-S. [1:05:23](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3923s) Yes, sir. [1:05:24](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3924s) Yes. Great. Thank you. [1:05:26](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3926s) Thank you. [1:05:26](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3926s) All right. Next up is Joe Cook. [1:05:33](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3933s) Thank you, uh, Chairman. I'm Joe Cook. I'm with Georgia Rivers. I'll make this brief. I know y'all have things to do. I'm the author of these guidebooks up here, uh, and I lead Georgia Rivers paddle trips. Craig did an excellent job of framing kind of the legal background of it. Um, I want to emphasize again what he said, and that is this is not changing the definition of navigable. It's only about passage. You wouldn't be taking any property from any property owners if you pass this bill because you're still gonna own the stream bed. [1:06:04](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=3964s) This is all about a passage, uh, or public easement for passage down these streams. One thing I would like to add is if you look at the history of the General Assembly and the laws that the General Assembly has passed regarding rivers throughout history, the General Assembly has always acted to protect what was most important to the state's economy and to commerce in regards to rivers. And if you look at the legislation that was passed in the 1800s, there was actually legislation passed to clarify the Broad River is navigable from the mouth of the Hudson River to, um, the Savannah River. [1:06:47](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4007s) That is the section of the Broad River that where three o- three outfitters operate now. In the 1800s, the Broad River was used for moving commerce or using, uh, goods downstream to markets. Um, today, there is no inland commerce on any of our inland rivers. None. But there is commerce in the form of recreational boating. [1:07:19](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4039s) And so y'all have the opportunity in this bill to clarify that public easement, not take anybody's property, but clarify that public easement to support that commerce that is taking place on all our inland rivers, and most of these rivers where this is taking place could arguably said to be non-navigable. So, um, that would be my, I would urge y'all to support the state's economy, the state's outdoor recreation and tourism ec- economy. This will help support that. [1:07:50](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4070s) I'd be happy to answer any questions y'all might have. [1:07:53](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4073s) I don't see any questions. Thank you, Mr. Cook. Uh, next up is Eric Rogers. [1:08:04](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4084s) Good morning, everybody. Appreciate the opportunity to talk a little bit. I am the chair of Georgia's chapter of, uh, the Native Fish Coalition. So our mission is to protect, preser- uh, preserve and restore native fish habitat in Georgia, and, and so some of y'all may know this. Uh, I think Mr. Burns sounds like a fisherman like me, and that's really my driving force for conservation and why I'm here today, and also along with Georgia Rivers. I'm a board member for Georgia Rivers. Um, don't know if y'all know or not, but we have a couple of really, uh, re- ... [1:08:35](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4115s) economically valuable fish in the state of Georgia. So we've got the Southern Appalachian brook trout. It's the southernmost range of that fish in North America. Um, and so that habitat is, is decreasing rapidly. So that's something that we work on. Also, the, um, state riverine sport fish, the shoal bass, which I hope all of you are familiar with. I think that was a bill just in the last couple of years. Um, several species of native black bass in Georgia that people come in, and you may not know this, from all over the world, um, to fish for because you can only catch these fish in Georgia. [1:09:08](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4148s) So the, uh, Chattahoochee and Flint River basins, it's the only place in the world where shoal bass are native. So you've got people coming in literally from Europe, from South Africa. We've got, you know, the, um, arguably the most successful airline in the world, we've got the busiest airport in the world. These people come in. Um, they spend a lot of money. They go, um, they're hiring guides, of which we have hundreds of guides in the State of Georgia, river guides. Uh, I'm not necessarily here to talk about fish, um, but I had moved to Georgia in, uh, June of 2000. [1:09:40](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4180s) One thing that became very clear to me, um, not being a native but have been here more than half of my life now, is that Georgia's natural resources are really tremendous. And I think, um, I don't know if all of y'all have lived here your whole life, but I worked in the Orvis store. It's the third-largest store in Orvis in Buckhead, and we had people like Eric Clapton come in. I actually talked to Jimmy Buffett one morning. And people would always come in and say, "You guys have fish in Georgia?" So I think there's, there's maybe a lack of outside perspective of what, how people see Georgia. But when you're here, we have these tremendous natural resources. [1:10:13](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4213s) And what I've also seen is that people in the State of Georgia don't necessarily take care of these resources to the, um, level that we should, right? That we should value these things. So I think the opportunity here for all of us in this room, and really all the state, um, residents of Georgia, is we have an opportunity to lead in Georgia. Um, some things that maybe some people don't even know, and I didn't know, I'm a, a marketing communications professional, Georgia's the 10th biggest state, and correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, in, in our country, right? We have 10.6 million people per the last census. [1:10:45](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4245s) Atlanta is the sixth-biggest metro area in the United States, so we have a ton of economic power here. Um, we're a diverse state, and we've got these tremendous natural resources, right? So what are the opportunities here? Um, Mr. Hughes, I think, talked about, um, tourism and economic development. Rena had mentioned people being afraid to come to Georgia because they've got people yelling at them. People have been shot on the Flint River and shot at, um, and I know probably some of you guys are familiar with the whole Yellow Jacket shoals situation on the Flint. [1:11:17](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4277s) Um, but the opportunity here for everyone on this board is to open up economic development, help local small businesses, which I, I hope everybody in this room supports that cause, right? And be a leader in what... And I think what you'll find, and I know that, um, the gentleman that got up and left the room, Mr. Walker, and then Mr. Ginn seemed to be opposed to this, um, but what I think they would, would find is the more people that you, um, introduce Georgia's natural resources to, the more those people become stewards of the resource, the more that opens up the opportunity for them to want to protect the resource, to clean up the resource, to take care of it, and then also potentially get involved in that resource and become, um, part of the economic success of that. [1:12:04](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4324s) So that's what I would just say, that Georgia has an opportunity to lead here, um, and I, and I think it's, um, a missed opportunity if we all just go by 1849 case law and let that guide the future of our state. [1:12:18](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4338s) All right. Thank you, sir. Uh, Jake, you're up next. [1:12:25](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4345s) And then Adam, you'll be the last person to testify today. [1:12:28](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4348s) Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee. I appreciate your time. I will be brief. Uh, thank you, Chairman Still, for, uh, the dialogue and, um, the discussion. I'm with the Georgia Agribusiness Council. We represent farmers, landowners, and agribusinesses across the state. Um, it is our belief that private property rights are the fundamental principle to this state, um, and our industry. We participated heavily in, uh, the discussion a couple of years ago with the study committee as well as House Bill 1172 that, that looked at the definition of navigable waterways, and we believe that it strike a, uh, fair balance for, for both landowners and public use. [1:13:07](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4387s) Um, with that being said, one specific issue that we could see, we represent the Georgia Cattlemen's Association, and, um, a lot of times there will be fencing across these streams, there will be cattle in the streams, um, and that could obviously cause conflict, um, or enable inability to, to pass these, these waterways, regardless of the private property discussion. Um, we're opposed to anything that will broaden the definition of navigable waterways, and we believe that in this broad, uh, interpretation of that, if you, if you essentially just make non-navigable waterways navigable, then there is no need for navigable, uh, definition. [1:13:45](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4425s) So, uh, we're opposed to broadening that definition. Again, thank you to the chairman, and thank you to the committee for, for hearing our concerns, and I'll answer any questions if you have any. [1:13:57](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4437s) Chairman Burns. [1:13:58](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4438s) Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for the input. I, I, I do have that concern. I share that concern. Um, and I think the committee has to, to acknowledge the fact that some landowners may have the right to fence the stream- [1:14:12](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4452s) Yes, sir [1:14:13](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4453s) ... in order to, uh, maintain the, th- their, their herd's integrity. So as we work through this, I wanna make sure that that's not, uh, ignored. Uh, and I, I s- uh, it's a, it's a challenging, challenging point. Thank you. [1:14:28](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4468s) Yes, sir. Thank you, Chairman. [1:14:30](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4470s) All right. No other questions, Jake, for you. Uh, Adam Bellflower is up next, Georgia Farm Bureau [1:14:38](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4478s) Thank you, Chairman. Uh, Adam Belflower with Georgia Farm Bureau. Good to be with y'all this morning, and, uh, had the opportunity to just briefly, uh, talk with the bill author about this legislation, uh, and look forward to further, uh, the conversation w- with him on this, uh, topic. This is an issue that is, is very important to our organization. We obviously represent farmers all across the state. Uh, but, uh, you know, I wanna speak to this more just not from the agriculture perspective, but from the landowner perspective and the value of private property rights and, and what this bill does. [1:15:10](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4510s) Uh, I do just wanna publicly say, you know, we object to the interpretation the, the previous gentleman had of the common law understanding from which our code originated, um, as it surrounds this issue. Uh, he brought up the, the Young v. Harrison 1849 case, and Chief Justice Lumpkin, in that opinion, he recognized three types of waterways in Georgia. Uh, one, arms of the sea, which were tidal waters where the water ebbs and flows, is the way he defines it. And then two other kinds, uh, which were intercoastal waters and the rivers that we're talking about today, one of those which supported passage, and the other which a landowner had exclusive rights to. [1:15:51](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4551s) Uh, and he recognized that of those other two types of waters, the right of passage only was given to one of those two. Um, that in common law, a right of passage was not extended to non-navigable waters. You see that idea directly reflected in our code when we inter- when the statute was originated to reflect this common law understanding that we had. We now have in code tidal waters, uh, which are our coastal waters, which we have a whole other way that we deal with them, and then we have navigable and non-navigable waters. [1:16:22](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4582s) There is a test, and, and what Chief Jump- Justice Lumpkin mentioned in, in his opinion was there should be a test to distinguish, uh, passage. And the test that we have is in, in 48, fi- f- 44-8-5, which is the test of navigability, which was mentioned earlier, which has to do with the waterway being able to support commerce and trade. And it does clarify that the mere rafting of timber or navigation of small boats does not justify navigability. Like, it, it, d- there's a clear, uh, in Georgia code, as we interpreted the law and the common law, and the precedent that has been set by the Supreme Court, is that a owner of non-navigable water has a set of rights, and he has exclus- exclusive rights, one of those rights being access and passage. [1:17:10](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4630s) We see this Bill 511 as a direct infringement on the private property rights of non-navigable landowners. The legislation that we have discussed in prior years dealt with the rights of the public to public access on navigable waters. We supporte- supported House Bill 1172, where it specifically clarified the right of passage on navigable waterways. Uh, but we do believe that non-navigable waterways, uh, have always held in Georgia. And this isn't, this isn't law that's been around for decades. [1:17:41](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4661s) Uh, this is centuries-old, uh, law, and, and this is law that really hasn't been touched in Georgia for centuries, uh, and this understanding of navigability and non-navigability. We believe if you add passage, you are taking away a right from a landowner, uh, and that is a taking, uh, that is being performed, uh, without compensation under this bill, uh, and that gives us grave concern. A- again, I, I look forward to continuing the conversation with the bill author, uh, on this legislation and, and talking with him, but just wanted to get up and, and point out a few of our concerns, and I'm, I'm happy to, uh, answer any questions. [1:18:15](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4695s) Yeah, I've got a question for you. So- [1:18:17](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4697s) Yes, sir [1:18:17](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4697s) ... you, i- if, if I'm able to distinguish t- between the difference of what you're contending versus Mr. Pendergrass, you are, you are essentially contending there's not two types of non-navigable waters. [1:18:28](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4708s) No, sir. [1:18:28](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4708s) Okay. [1:18:28](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4708s) There's one type of non-navigable. [1:18:30](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4710s) Okay. [1:18:30](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4710s) There, there, there are three types of waters in the state. There's two types of freshwater rivers, and there's navigable and non-navigable, and I believe the code supports that. [1:18:39](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4719s) You agree that's the code now. Would you, would you, uh, do you think that, is it your understanding that ever in common law or previous Georgia law that there were two types of non-navigable waters? [1:18:49](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4729s) I do not, and I do- I think the Supreme Court has, has stood with that opinion as well. [1:18:52](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4732s) Okay. I- is it your contention that that's essentially the core of this- [1:18:57](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4737s) Debate? [1:18:57](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4737s) ... disagreement? Yeah. [1:18:58](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4738s) Yes, sir. And I, and I think to one of the comments you made earlier, Chairman, um, we were talking about the boundary lines on these rivers. Uh, non-navigable, if you look at a land survey on a non-navigable waterway, the property owner owns to the center thread of that non-navigable water. Um, and then so if they own, that's where the whole idea of you own both sides of the waterway, you can prohibit access because your land goes to the center thread of that non-navigable water. Uh, and this is laid out in code too. They were referencing back 44-8-5. [1:19:29](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4769s) If a l- waterway isn't navigable, the landowner only owns to the low water mark. They don't own the center thread of that riverway. Um, and so that is where that right of passage exists. Um, so I think that's a, a good point to clarify. A landowner, when, when their land is being surveyed, when you buy property, if you were to buy property, say, you know, on the Altamaha River, we use that 'cause that's pretty undisputed that the Altamaha is a navigable waterway. Um, if you look at the Al- if you own land on the Altamaha, your, uh, l- your land line, your property line goes to the low water mark. [1:20:05](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4805s) It does not extend to the center thread of that waterway as if you own land on a non-navigable, say, a creek. Um, so that's one of the distinguishing factors of those two properties as well. [1:20:17](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4817s) Is your contention in Georgia law, since there is only n- one type of non-navigable water, if you were to f- to allow passage, you would essentially run into a, a conflict with what Chairman Burns is speaking of- [1:20:29](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4829s) Mm-hmm [1:20:29](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4829s) ... and wha- and what Jake spoke of, which is essentially the inability for your clients, um, for, for the farmers to essentially put fencing over- [1:20:38](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4838s) Well, I, I think- [1:20:39](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4839s) That non-navigable- [1:20:39](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4839s) I mean, I think that is one implication. I think there's multiple. I mean, I think one is just you're taking away a, a owner's right in the same way that a landowner has the rights to the minerals on the property. Um, in a way, you're taking away... I mean, access is a right. Um, you know, I think I would, I would point back to this bill to line 18 and 19, what's not underlined, what's in existing law. If the owner of a non-navigable stream is entitled to the same exclusive possession of the stream as he has of any other part of his land. [1:21:11](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4871s) I mean, I think that's important to think about what that existing law says there. Um, in the same way that a non-navigable stream is given exclusive rights, the landowner has exclusive rights over that non-navigable stream. Those exclusive rights and possession are just the same as any other part of his land. I- [1:21:31](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4891s) Great [1:21:31](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4891s) ... I think that's, I think it's pretty cl- I think the code's pretty clear. [1:21:33](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4893s) Thank you. [1:21:33](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4893s) The existing code. [1:21:34](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4894s) Thank you, um, Mr. Bellflower. Justin, I'm gonna ask you to get with ledge counsel and ask them to write an opinion, um, for the committee as to how Georgia law currently is situated, whether it is what, uh, Mr. Pendergrass stated, that there's two types of non-navigable streams, or whether there's one type. And, um, I don't know where he went. There you are. W- why don't you come back up for a second? We're all friends in the room here. Thank you. [1:22:03](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4923s) Yes, sir. [1:22:03](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4923s) Adam. [1:22:04](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4924s) Would, would you like me to stay up or can sit down? [1:22:06](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4926s) Um, why don't you stay? You know what- [1:22:09](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4929s) Yes, sir [1:22:09](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4929s) ... why don't you, um, Craig, why don't you grab a seat right here at, at W2? I'm gonna do this the same way those that were on the committee when we did, um, truck weights. We had, we had respectful, open dialogue between two people that had two varying opinions. I wanna make sure that we're clarifying your position correctly. [1:22:32](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4952s) Yes, sir. [1:22:33](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4953s) I- is your position that currently in Georgia law there are two types of nav- non-navigable waterways? [1:22:40](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4960s) Under Georgia law, under the definition, uh, yes. Answer yes. [1:22:46](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4966s) Okay. [1:22:46](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4966s) It's that simple. [1:22:47](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4967s) Okay. So when we ask legislative counsel to go through this process or, and, or our research department, they will find what you're stating. Obviously Adam is saying that he believes that there's one. Help me understand why you think that he's wrong. [1:23:01](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4981s) Okay. L- let me get a little bit real estate law wonky- [1:23:05](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4985s) Sure [1:23:05](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=4985s) ... and Georgia legal history wonky, but it's important, and legislative counsel will wanna take this into account. Um, as one runs back to the, the or- origin of chain of title of a property, that's a very important thing that title examiners have to do. And all private property in the state's chain of title originated by i- the 1830s after the Chad- the Cherokee Land Lottery Acts, Land Lottery Acts of 1830. [1:23:46](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5026s) As the state developed, we, you know, private property ownership came from the coast up into north Georgia. But, so when each of those properties originated their chain of title by 1830s, the common law was in effect, and the common law placed under the, as c- confirmed by Young v. Harrison, a common law easement of passage. [1:24:18](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5058s) So if the legislature's intent, and it's not clear that it was the legislature's intent at all, in 1863 was to get rid of that common law easement, that would've been a violation of the gratuities clause of the Constitution that says the government can't give up its rights in a gratuitous manner, so the public's rights. [1:24:50](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5090s) So that is where, among other things, legislative counsel should be looking. They should also be looking at the Capital City gravel and sand case. It's the Chattahoochee case in 1910 that confirmed, yes, after the 1863 act, there's still these two types of non-navigable streams. [1:25:09](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5109s) So you think that he's wrong not because his plain reading of the current law is wrong. You think that he's wrong because the General Assembly passed a bill, or at least, uh, a- as the current application of the law is, would violate the gratuities clause of tracing back through title code to the 1800s. [1:25:29](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5129s) In, in, yes, in part. Also, the 1863 code does not disavow the existence of public easement rights. You know, general real property law says landowners are entitled to exclusive possession, but we all know that that exclusive possession is subject to limits. That's a nice term. Among other things, zoning laws. Among other things, FAA re- you know, the o- overfly rights. So it's, you know, you know, in theory, ownership of land is to the heavens and to the center of the Earth, but those are subject to re- to limitations. [1:26:09](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5169s) Sure. I just wanna get clarity, and try to give me clarity. [1:26:15](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5175s) Yeah. [1:26:15](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5175s) Um, not, not law school, uh, thesis. Um, do you agree that the, that the plain reading of current Georgia law has one type of non-navigable stream? [1:26:27](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5187s) No. [1:26:28](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5188s) Okay. So that's what we need clarity on. [1:26:32](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5192s) Chairman, do you mind if I- [1:26:33](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5193s) Yeah, I'd, I'd love for you to respond. [1:26:35](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5195s) Uh, I, uh, so I would agree with the gentleman's interpretation that a common law right of passage exists in common law I, I don't have my computer in front of me. I can't read it, uh, the, the direct quote, uh, from Y- Young v. Harrison. I, I do agree. There is a, a very explicit, and it's ... I mean, and I will, happy to share this with you, right of passage. But it is only extended to one type of waterway. [1:27:05](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5225s) It does not extend to non-navigable waters. It only extends to navigable waters. And I think, I m- ... So I do agree with that, but I think it, that, that common right of passage, and by extending the common right of passage to non-navigable waters is where the, the constitutional taking occurs. [1:27:23](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5243s) And you're, and you're getting to what, what Pro Tem Walker was saying, which essentially that is the distinction. [1:27:29](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5249s) Yes. [1:27:29](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5249s) He believes that the distinction between navigable and non-navigable simply is the right of passage. [1:27:32](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5252s) The right of passage. [1:27:33](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5253s) All right. I'll give you- [1:27:33](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5253s) And, and I think that is, and I think the code s- so again to the gentleman's point that a landowner has rights, I think the common law and, and in the, the opinion, the, uh, from the course, the case that we're talking about, in the opinion it mentions that on the, on the two types of waterways, in- inland waterways, the navigable and non-navigable, exclusive rights exist on the non-navigable, and the landowner possesses all rights, but a common right of passage exists on non-navigable. [1:28:06](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5286s) So I mean, I think that, I think the, the distinction is there. I, I mean, I think that it just does not extend that right of passage onto non-navigable waterways. [1:28:15](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5295s) Great. M- m- ... I, I think we're good with you. [1:28:19](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5299s) Yes, sir. [1:28:19](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5299s) I'm gonna ask you one question. [1:28:20](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5300s) May, may I speak just briefly? [1:28:22](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5302s) Let me ask you my question real quick. [1:28:23](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5303s) Okay. [1:28:23](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5303s) And then you can. I'll, I'm, I'll, I'm happy to let you go. [1:28:25](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5305s) Okay. Sorry. [1:28:26](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5306s) Walk me through the fence scenario. [1:28:28](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5308s) That's exactly what I was- [1:28:29](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5309s) Okay [1:28:29](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5309s) ... going to do. So, um, sometimes we have to get practical and as we understand rivers, and flows, and properties. And if somebody was to string a barbed wire across a river, that barb- if it's a river big enough to support passage, that wire is gonna get blown out by the first big rain when, when, uh, limbs, and trees, and all that- [1:28:59](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5339s) Mm [1:28:59](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5339s) ... come down. So the, the sort of things we're talking about where, okay, I wanna, you know, fence off for legitimate purposes, you know, the upper line of this little stream where my cattle like to come down and drink, that shouldn't really be a problem. But if you're tr- gonna try to say, well, if you're gonna try to, for just the purpose of, you know, stopping the public from coming down, put a s- put something up, well, it's gonna get blown out i- with the first big rain. [1:29:30](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5370s) Think, but think about it that way- [1:29:31](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5371s) I think that's a, again, that's a, I think that's a stretch [1:29:32](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5372s) ... 'cause it's, again, we're talking about little things versus medium things. And the, the ... And again, if, if the law was that only boats loaded with, deep with freight that you then define to be, well, big barges, uh, was the b- basis for passage, there wouldn't be a single river in Georgia other than s- you know, Altamaha or the Chattahoochee down, uh, near Lake Seminole that would m- [1:29:59](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5399s) Savannah [1:29:59](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5399s) ... meet, meet that definition. [1:30:00](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5400s) So you're filibustering. Let me, let me, let me talk really in a little bit. Um, when can a farmer put up a fence? [1:30:09](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5409s) If he owns b- both sides of that stream and, um- [1:30:13](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5413s) What if it's, as you classified your thir- your second category, um, which is non-navigable, where there's bed ownership and there's private property to the bed of the river, um, but it's capable of boat passage, can the farmer put up a fence? [1:30:28](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5428s) Yeah. Um, there's, he could put up, actually there's types of fences he could put up that would accommodate both, that would keep his cattle in and allow a canoe to pass through. You know, the floating, floating kind of fence. [1:30:39](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5439s) Can he, can he put up, your, your ... Can he put up a fence d- for the purpose of keeping his cattle in that would not allow boats to float through? [1:30:47](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5447s) That's a g- that's a g- [1:30:48](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5448s) Under the law. [1:30:49](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5449s) I, I would generally say, uh, not if not, if that he should be accommodating to public passage rights by making it a type of fence that, um, allows a boat to go under it. And again, you can have these things that are- [1:31:08](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5468s) Pretty sure if a boat can go under it, a cow can go under it. [1:31:12](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5472s) Mm, depends on ... Well. [1:31:15](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5475s) So y- you understand the tension that's here. Um, we're gonna let our, our aspiring lawyer, who has his, his bar exam next week by the way- ... um, so good luck. Uh, we're gonna let him get with the, um, with the other lawyers in the building to help us navigate this. Thank you guys for being here. I do wanna recognize, um, Senator Hatchett is in the room. You, do you have an interest in this? Would you like to address anything to the committee? [1:31:43](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5503s) This is the first time I've seen you in the Transportation Committee, so welcome. [1:31:46](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5506s) It is, and this is a- [1:31:47](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5507s) So something must've piqued your interest [1:31:48](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5508s) ... a very important issue to my district and my constituents. I'm staunchly opposed to this. I'm staunchly opposed to the interpretation that's been given. I think the interpretation of a 1859 case law is being stretched to the point that it is appeasing boaters. When that law was, when that case was decided, it was solely focused on commerce. It did not grant a common law easement in any way, shape, or form. If anything, it was a servitude for passage and commerce, which are two different things. [1:32:26](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5546s) Um, as long as I'm in the state legislature, I'm gonna be against this, and I wanna go on the record saying that for my constituents, 'cause this is a very deeply personal issue up in my neck of the woods. There are trout streams now that have been, uh, highly invested in that used to be small, small creeks where you have a hard time even finding a crawdad that now have trophy trout. And they are, in no way should the general public be allowed to kayak or canoe on private property in northeast Georgia. [1:33:06](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5586s) And I just wanna go on the record saying that. So thank you, Mr. Chairman. [1:33:08](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5588s) Thank you. Yeah. Thank you for being here. Thank you for sharing. Um, any other comments from the committee? If yeah, I'm gonna give, uh, Chairman Still an opportunity to close out. Um, before he does, I just wanna say to, uh, Senator Dickerson, uh, this is not the normal Transportation Committee meeting. This is, this i- this is like, this i- if you liked this, you wanna be on the ju- the Judiciary Committee. If you didn't like this, you wanna steer clear of the Judiciary Committee. Um, thank you to all those that came to testify. [1:33:39](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5619s) I do wanna give, uh, Senator Still on for the opportunity to, to wrap up here. [1:33:44](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5624s) I just wanna say thank you to the committee. Thank you for the opportunity, Mr. Chairman, uh, for hearing this. This has been a lot more, uh, time invested in it than I, I thought we would. So this has been great. Uh, for those of you in the audience for and against, thank you for your input. Thank you for coming. Uh, thank you for continuing the conversation. I think it's really important that, uh, that we keep talking about this and make sure that we take everyone's rights and concerns, um, uh, very seriously as, as we continue. Thank you. [1:34:13](https://vimeo.com/1165827950#t=5653s) Thank you, Chairman Still. Thank you all for being here, and this meeting is adjourned.