--- title: Senate Regulated Industries and Utilities Committee, February 24, 2026 collection: meetings id: 2026-02-24/senate-regulated-industries-and-utilities cite_as: Senate Regulated Industries and Utilities Committee, February 24, 2026, video https://vimeo.com/1167875404 (machine transcript by Georgia Commons) canonical_url: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-02-24/senate-regulated-industries-and-utilities md_url: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-02-24/senate-regulated-industries-and-utilities.md text_url: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-02-24/senate-regulated-industries-and-utilities/text source_url: https://vimeo.com/1167875404 date: 2026-02-24 status: machine transcript corpus_version: meetings-2026-10-23-8c15ead0f18d license: Machine transcript and summaries by Georgia Commons from the General Assembly's public video; the video stays on the General Assembly's Vimeo channel; see about.md publisher: Georgia Commons, an independent project of Georgia Civic Data. Not the State of Georgia. Not legal advice. up: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-02-24.md previous: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-02-24/house-game-fish-and-parks.md next: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-02-24/house-energy-utilities-and-telecommunications.md index: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/index.md chamber: Senate body: Senate Regulated Industries and Utilities Committee body_url: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/senate-regulated-industries-and-utilities.md meeting_kind: committee session: 2025-2026 Regular Session start_time: 2026-02-24T17:00:00-05:00 location: 450 CAP duration_seconds: 6936.0 video_id: 1167875404 video_title: 02/24/2026 Senate Committee on Regulated Industries & Utilities agenda_url: https://www.legis.ga.gov/api/document/agendas/senate/RIUAgenda2.24.26.pdf bills_discussed: - SB 456 - SB 34 summaries_model: gpt-6.1-sol transcript_turns: 633 transcript_chars: 122966 parts: - https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-02-24/senate-regulated-industries-and-utilities.md?start=0 - https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-02-24/senate-regulated-industries-and-utilities.md?start=59965 - https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-02-24/senate-regulated-industries-and-utilities.md?start=119911 --- # Senate Regulated Industries and Utilities Committee, February 24, 2026 Senate Regulated Industries and Utilities Committee; February 24, 2026; 2025-2026 Regular Session. Video, on the General Assembly's Vimeo channel: https://vimeo.com/1167875404. Agenda: https://www.legis.ga.gov/api/document/agendas/senate/RIUAgenda2.24.26.pdf. > This is a machine transcript of the General Assembly's video, made by a speech-recognition model. It is not an official record and can mishear words, names, and numbers. Speakers are not identified. The video is the record: every timestamp links to the moment it plays. ## Summary written by Georgia Commons Written by gpt-6.1-sol from the transcript below. It is not part of the record. Quote the transcript or the video, not the summary. The committee heard revised proposals on brewery sales and electricity costs for large customers. On [SB 456](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/sb456), brewery representatives supported expanded sales and limited local distribution, while opponents raised concerns about public health and effects on retailers and wholesalers. A motion to pass it received no second, so it did not advance. On [SB 34](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/sb34), members debated whether contract requirements alone would protect other electricity customers or whether an explicit ban on shifting costs was also needed. The committee rejected the sponsor’s preferred version, 4 to 9, then approved an alternative substitute, 9 to 3, sending it to the Rules Committee. ## Bills discussed (2) Each account was written by gpt-6.1-sol from the stretch of the transcript it names. The bill's number is said in that stretch, unless it was the only bill on a committee's agenda. ### SB 456. Alcoholic Beverages; regulation of the manufacture, distribution, and sale; provide [SB 456](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/sb456) (2025-2026 Regular Session). From [0:19:39](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1179s), turns 8 to 198. The sponsor presented a substitute that would allow brewery take-home sales of three cases per person daily and reduce proposed self-distribution within a brewery’s county from 1,000 to 500 barrels. The sponsor described it as help for small breweries that revitalized downtowns. Brewery witnesses said local distribution would help establish demand and attract distributors, rather than bypass the existing producer-wholesaler-retailer system. A Reformation representative disputed that consumption would increase. A physician and former CDC alcohol-program director warned of increased drinking, illness and public costs. The Georgia Baptist Mission Board also opposed expanded availability. The Georgia Beer Wholesalers Association argued that direct sales would replace retail purchases and let breweries take wholesalers’ strongest accounts. Members questioned whether the small-brewer definition could include major international producers. The sponsor and Georgia Craft Brewers Guild disputed that interpretation; members discussed revenue or production limits, including a one-million-barrel ceiling, but adopted no amendment. Asked about multiple locations, the sponsor said local distribution would depend on brewing in the county. A guild witness said opening a brewery costs millions and often involves personal financial guarantees. A motion to pass received no second and died without a vote. ### SB 34. Public Service Commission; costs incurred by an electric utility as a result of providing electric services to commercial data centers from being included in any rates; prohibit [SB 34](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/sb34) (2025-2026 Regular Session). From [0:44:24](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2664s), turns 199 to 627. The sponsor favored a substitute combining contract requirements for large electricity customers with an explicit prohibition on shifting their service costs to other customers. The sponsor said the alternative omitted that prohibition. Public Service Commission witnesses said existing rules already protected customers and warned that legislation could restrict flexibility as electricity demand changed. Members questioned what specific language would prevent adjustments and argued that protection should remain binding during emergencies. A commission attorney distinguished contract requirements from rate-setting protections. Georgia Power’s witness warned that the explicit prohibition could invite allocation disputes and jeopardize revenues benefiting other customers. The witness cited a rate freeze through 2028 and $1.6 billion in savings for 2029–2031. Asked about defaults and upfront payments, the witness cited financial security and upfront transmission charges, and said generation prepayments could be considered without legislation. The Data Center Coalition preferred the contract-focused alternative. Another supporting witness argued that statutory protection was stronger than changeable rules, citing $34 billion in planned investment. Georgia Power’s witness separately put approved generation and transmission capital investment near $20 billion. The sponsor denied that the preferred version prevented customer savings. The committee rejected switching to that version, 4 to 9, then approved substitute LC560584S, 9 to 3, for Rules Committee consideration. > The transcript runs 122,966 characters. A reader that cannot take it at once can read it in 3 parts: part 1 https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-02-24/senate-regulated-industries-and-utilities.md?start=0; part 2 https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-02-24/senate-regulated-industries-and-utilities.md?start=59965; part 3 https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-02-24/senate-regulated-industries-and-utilities.md?start=119911. ## Transcript (633 turns) [0:18:19](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1099s) Get her done. Okay, guys, for the, for the, before we get started, just so that you'll know for the committee here, live music will be Charlie Haas, I believe that's how you say that. The lead singer of Underground Springhouse will be taking requests. This is at the Senate Regulated Industries Committee Dinner, which will be held at 1544 Piedmont Avenue, Unit 406. Sound like we're gonna be in a dadgum, uh, one of those little, one those things, little s- uh, storage bins or whatever it's gonna be. [0:18:47](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1127s) Objection. It's the 57th Fighter Group. [0:18:50](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1130s) Well, I think this is Chairman Cowsert's little deal here, and, uh, uh, it says respond to Page, so you gotta get that with her. So, Miss Page, there you go. But anyway, we'll, that's March the 9th, so y'all put that in your calendar on that deal. Let's see, we got one, two, three, four, five. Let's see, we got a full, we'll go with this one here. [0:19:06](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1146s) You found that one, mister. [0:19:09](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1149s) Let me get the right page here. Okay, we're going to change the order around a little bit, 'cause that's what my chairman told me to do. Uh, we're gonna start with Senator Bearden. Senator Bearden, where are you? [0:19:20](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1160s) Right here. [0:19:21](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1161s) Well, come on up here, sir. [0:19:23](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1163s) Thank you. [0:19:23](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1163s) And we're gonna put you on number two right there in the middle. And I want you, as, as, as you know, last time we held a good hearing on this thing. You've said you was gonna make some changes- ... and some, get it all done, so we need to know where you're at. Is this our sign-up sheet for his bill? Okay, 456. And we're gonna be, uh, dealing with, uh, Senate Bill 456 today, please. And the floor is yours, and we do have several people to, uh, speak about this bill. [0:19:47](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1187s) Okay, if you have the old bill in your, uh, folders, and thank you, Mr. Chairman and committee. The first change that we made was on line 40 of the bill. The substitute we're working off of is LC560599S. On the first bill, we had, um, basically no limits on how many cases of beer they could sell. We moved that from 288, which is current law, to 864, so that's basically three cases they could sell per day, uh, per person out of their, uh, facility. On lines 50, the old bill was line 52. [0:20:22](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1222s) Uh, the new bill, line 51, we dropped, um, went from 1,000 barrels they could sell with inside the limits of the county to 500 barrels. There were some c- some concerns about lines 55, 56, 57. We struck those. And that's basically it. So basically, we reduced this down to three cases a day, and from 1,000 to 500. Listened to the committee and tried to make the changes that we felt would be appropriate for y'all. [0:20:55](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1255s) And just ask for your favorable consideration. [0:20:58](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1258s) Questions for the committee, on any of the changes? Anybody got questions? All right, we got some, uh, we got some folks are here to speak. Uh, I believe, and, well, guys, I'd like to limit you all on some time, 'cause we got to move on. We got a big bill coming up behind this one. Uh, 456, I see Chris Lasser, is that right? [0:21:16](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1276s) Lauer. [0:21:17](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1277s) And Brooke Mills, you'll be on deck. Please take the podium, ma'am. Tell us who you are, what you're with, and all the good stuff. [0:21:22](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1282s) Sure. Hi, my name is Chris Lauer. I am the owner of Rock Solid Brewing in Ball Ground. And I just wanted to, um, let you know that this bill would mean a lot, would matter a lot to our brewery, and most breweries our size. We are an anchor in our little town. If you haven't been there, it's three blocks long. We are an anchor, and this bill would allow us to grow with the town. It would allow us a little bit more publicity than we can get on our own. [0:21:54](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1314s) Um, and, uh, we would very much like your support and vote on it today. [0:21:58](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1318s) Thank you, ma'am. Uh, Brooke Mills, tell us who you're with, and we- [0:22:04](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1324s) I think I was put on the wrong one. I'm, I, I, I'm here for the other bill. [0:22:08](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1328s) Oh, we got you. I'm sorry. I apologize. My, my bad. It's written, it's written under the same category. My apologies. We'll get you back. Just a minute. Uh, Rob Brewer. Did I get that right? [0:22:20](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1340s) Yep, you got it. [0:22:21](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1341s) Rob Brewer, quickly. There you go. [0:22:23](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1343s) All right. Thank you. [0:22:27](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1347s) Is that a connotation or a pun there, Rob Brewer, or just- [0:22:29](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1349s) Yeah, I know, I know. That's right. I hear that all the time. [0:22:31](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1351s) Okay, you go ahead. [0:22:33](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1353s) I'm, I'm a coffee brewer, though, so. [0:22:34](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1354s) I gotcha. [0:22:35](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1355s) Um, all right. Well, good afternoon. My name is Dr. Robert Brewer. I'm a physician, a epidemiologist, um, a retired captain in the U.S. Public Health Service, former director of the alcohol program at CDC, and one of your neighbors. And I'm here to testify against 456, because I believe it's bad for Georgia. In the medical field, new doctors are required to, uh, recite the Hippocratic Oath, which I'm sure you've heard about. It says, "First, do no harm." And I think this might be a good principle for you all to apply when you're considering this bill as well. Let me give you the bottom line. [0:23:06](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1386s) I think 456 is bad, a bad bill that could do a lot of harm to our fellow Georgians, and let me tell you why. First, by design, this bill will substantially increase d- direct to consumer sales of beer, thereby increasing alcohol consumption. I don't know by how much, but I can tell you that, um, alcohol consumption is very strongly related to availability, which this bill will certainly increase. Second, this bill is essentially promoting an end run around the existing three-tier system, which Georgia and many other states use to put reasonable controls on the sales and distribution of alcoholic beverages, and to assure the quality of alcoholic beverages as well. [0:23:43](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1423s) Over time, this will lower the price of alcohol, which will lead some Georgians, both young and old, Black and white, male and female, to drink too much. As a result, more bad things will happen, including car crashes, violence, unintended pregnancies, sexually transmitted diseases, and over time, cancer, heart disease, liver disease, and many other health problems, particularly when combined with the increased availability of alcohol that this bill will promote. Consequently, this legislation will cost hardworking Georgians a lot of money, because they'll ultimately have to pay the tab for uncompensated healthcare for people who drink too much, and for the cost of, um, incarcerating people for alcohol-related crimes, including DWI, homicide, sexual assault, and others. [0:24:29](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1469s) And if you're wondering how much money we're talking about here, in 2010, excessive drinking, particularly binge drinking or drinking to get drunk, cost Georgians 6.9 billion or about $2.12 per drink, including 2.8 billion or about 86 cents per drink in government-funded healthcare and criminal justice expenses. And these costs have certainly increased since that time, and this of course is not taking into account increases in consumption that would occur as a result of this bill were it to pass. While it's true that alcohol consumption i- at least, uh, for those adult drinkers who aren't addicted to alcohol, is an individual choice, I know from personal experience that even reasonably smart people, including me, uh, can do dumb things like drinking too much at times. [0:25:12](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1512s) But as a society, we don't have to make it easier for people to make bad choices, to endanger them- endangering themselves and others, by creating an environment that encourages them to drink more. And increasing the availability and lowering the price of alcohol, as this bill will do, will accomplish that. So I, uh, respectfully ask you- [0:25:30](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1530s) Wind it up, please. [0:25:31](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1531s) What's that? [0:25:32](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1532s) Wind it up, please. [0:25:33](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1533s) Yeah, I am. I'm wrapping it up. So anyway, I respectfully ask you to consider the consequences of this legislation and vote no on Bill 456. Thank you. [0:25:42](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1542s) Thank you. Chair? [0:25:43](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1543s) Mm-hmm. [0:25:44](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1544s) Uh, S- Spencer Nix. [0:25:50](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1550s) Sorry, you guys. I'm gonna limit you some time. I hate to do that to you, but it's just where we are. [0:25:54](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1554s) Thank you, Chairman. I'll be quick. Yeah, I, I did testify at the last hearing. I just ask that you would, uh, please pass this through. We, we would love, uh, all our breweries here, our rep- uh, that are represented, are even smaller than ours. It would actually help them even more than it would Reformation. Uh, I'm just here in, in solidarity to stand with them. Uh, it's time. Um, uh, there's a lot of logical fallacies you guys have heard, red herrings and so forth, but, uh, this will not increase consumption. [0:26:24](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1584s) This is, uh, we are responsible citizens of this state. We know how to re- regulate ourselves, and we are asking that you please, uh, pass this on. Appreciate it. [0:26:33](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1593s) Thank you, Mr. Nix. Uh, Kevin Ir- Irwin, is that right? [0:26:37](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1597s) Yes, sir. [0:26:38](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1598s) Kevin. Right here. [0:26:45](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1605s) Thank you, Chairman Summers and board. I, I also testified as well on behalf of the Georgia Brewers Guild. But one thing I just want to, uh, point out with this, this just allows small breweries to build a local proof of concept, demonstrating demand in sales and consistency. When we would g- w- we would still not be bypassing. This would be an on-ramp for distributors, giving us the ability to get to a point where it makes sense. So that's why we're asking for a pass on the bill. We're not a- asking for this to be something to circumvent the three-tier. We're looking at this to be an on-ramp, so we're looking for your support to pass. [0:27:16](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1636s) Thank you. [0:27:17](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1637s) Thank you, Mr. Irwin. Uh, Thomas Monte, is that right? [0:27:22](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1642s) Yes, sir. [0:27:26](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1646s) Good afternoon. I'm Thomas Monte with Squirrels Brewing in Marietta, Georgia. Um, I know you guys are getting sick of seeing us, and I wanna go back to Marietta and do my thing too. The one thing I wanna say is there's 38 states that already have self-distribution, and they all use a three-tiered system. We are not trying to dismantle the three-tiered system. What we're trying to do is have a fair market so we can serve the people in our, uh, in our communities. My beer has to go 46 miles to go 44 miles down the road. [0:28:00](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1680s) That is more congestion on 285, 75, 85, 400, to get back to my s- my town of Marietta. That right there adds more congestion and more burden on the people of Georgia and the great counties of the metro area. Not only that, with 500 barrels, we're talking basically about 20% of any one brewery's production, the majority of us. [0:28:33](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1713s) The majority of us only produce around 1,000 barrels a year at most. And in our counties, we would only be serving upwards of 20 to 30 accounts. We're not asking for the moon. We're asking for a fair slice of the pie. [0:28:51](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1731s) Thank you. [0:28:51](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1731s) Thank you. [0:28:52](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1732s) Thank you. Uh, Martin, is that Smith? I can't read the last name. [0:29:01](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1741s) Your writing's worse than mine. I think I know you. Come on up, Martin. Give us a- [0:29:06](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1746s) Martin Smith. [0:29:07](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1747s) That's right. [0:29:09](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1749s) Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, thank you. I'm Martin Smith. I represent the Georgia Beer Wholesalers Association. And as I spoke when this bill was in the hearing before, uh, the concerns still matter on this one. Uh, while there's been a reduction on the off-premise daily sales, it still represents what would be considered the, the replacement of retail. When people are gonna go buy three cases of beer, that's the beer that they're gonna buy, and this was never intended for that to happen. The definition defining what a small brewer would be, um, which as it's defined in this bill, would apply to every brewer in Georgia, and in some cases, the two largest brewers in the, in the world that are located here. [0:29:51](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1791s) So doing those things, um, are, are run contrary to what the intent of, of all this has been. And then on the self-distribution part, where we're talking about wanting to just distribute your beer across the street to these retail accounts, those, as was mentioned last time, are the prime accounts. The local accounts are the prime ones. And to cherry-pick those out when we're investing in those products to be able to grow them, we need the good accounts as well as the accounts that may not move the product as fast in order to get the investment return on there. [0:30:22](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1822s) All of those things are the reasons why we would request that you oppose this bill. And thank you for all your work. [0:30:29](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1829s) Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Martin. Got one last, uh, speaker for this. I believe the gentleman's name is Mike Griffin. I bet I know how he feels Come on up, Mike. [0:30:38](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1838s) Yep. Been there, done that. Got four or five T-shirts from it already. But, um, my name is Mike Griffin. I'm the public affairs representative of the Georgia Baptist Mission Board. We do represent up to about 10% of the population. And yeah, I've mentioned to you about a resolution we did in 2021. And in that resolution, we talked about the fact that, uh, availability of alcohol leads to increased sales. So I'm sure that no one here that sells it wants it to be less, and I, I don't think that in and of itself is anything wrong. [0:31:09](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1869s) I know you're trying to make more money, and that's, that's not in and of itself a bad thing. But my point is, uh, we're not talking about Coca-Colas and Mountain Dews here. And the point is, availability does equal sales, and, uh, sales equals consumption, and consumption equals potential problems. So our concern is a public health and safety issue here, and, uh, we think that we need to maintain our regulations that we have. Uh, it's gonna keep itching toward another direction. [0:31:39](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1899s) You know, an itch sometimes leads to a mile. And, uh, so we wanna continue to maintain as strict as possible a three-tier system as well. So we do continue to oppose any, uh, expansion of alcohol. But thank you, Mr. Chairman. [0:31:53](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1913s) Thank you, Mr. Griffin. Okay, uh, Senator Bearden, you wanna sum up any of this, uh, here? Anybody got any questions on the committee so far? You want- What, uh, what are you, over two? [0:32:03](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1923s) Yeah. [0:32:04](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1924s) Recognize Senator Dolezal. [0:32:05](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1925s) Thank you. Senator Bearden, would you agree with the, I guess, the characterization that this would apply to every brewery, including the, the largest ones in the state? And is, if, is that your intent of this bill? [0:32:18](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1938s) Mm-hmm. [0:32:18](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1938s) 'Cause those folks aren't here. [0:32:19](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1939s) Yeah, I wouldn't agree with that, no. This is for our small breweries, those individuals that took a chance on our downtown areas when there were basically no one there. A brewery would come in, open up. Another shop would open, and it's kind of built the downtown areas that we have throughout our state. And a lot of these areas were very, um, depressed. So this is a small business bill, just trying to help our small breweries out so they can make a living. [0:32:48](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1968s) You have, um, small brewer on line 51. Is that defined anywhere else in the code such that it would exclude the folks that they're talking about? 'Cause I read that to be your intent. I just- [0:33:01](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1981s) Yeah [0:33:01](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1981s) ... I'm, I'm curious about the comment, and if that can be reconciled, 'cause I know some members of the committee I've talked to- [0:33:07](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1987s) Understood [0:33:07](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1987s) ... wanna help some of the folks that are s- here, the smaller brewers. But if that's some of the pushback. [0:33:13](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1993s) Do you mind running that by me again? [0:33:14](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1994s) Yeah. It's not, uh, it's a new definition. [0:33:17](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=1997s) It's not defined in the code. It's, that's the new definition. [0:33:20](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2000s) Is it anywhere in the bill? [0:33:23](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2003s) On line 15 through 17. [0:33:26](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2006s) Okay. That, uh, yeah, I didn't see it on top. [0:33:28](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2008s) Which basically, um, make up 15% or less of their total sales to, on the wholesaler side. [0:33:45](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2025s) And so your contention would be that that would preclude these other- [0:33:50](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2030s) Yes [0:33:51](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2031s) ... brewers. Mr. Chairman, I'm curious what Mr. Smith would say about that, and, um, if it'd be appropriate to ask that question, 'cause I, I believe he's the one that made the comment, if I recall correctly. [0:34:00](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2040s) Mr. Smith, you wanna take the podium for a minute? [0:34:10](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2050s) Senator Dolezal? [0:34:12](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2052s) Did you, did you catch that question, Mr. Smith? I'm curious. You, I, I think I heard you say that this would, you think this would apply to all the breweries in the state. I know he's, the plain intent of the bill does seem to be for the small breweries. Help us understand why you think it includes everyone, and what change would you recommend- [0:34:30](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2070s) So everybody- [0:34:31](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2071s) ... to capture what he's trying to capture? [0:34:32](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2072s) What I've, what I've, the rationale behind it is it's case by case on the wholesaler's relationship with their particular brewer. So there are cases where there'll be a wholesaler that's carrying the two largest brewers in the world in some capacity, and they won't represent a significant number in their portfolio. And in those cases, as this is written, would make them qualify for self-distribution as a small brewer. [0:35:04](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2104s) How would that apply to, I think you said the two m- the two largest brewers in the state would apply. [0:35:09](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2109s) That, that's, that's what I'm referencing. [0:35:10](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2110s) Okay. Can you walk me through it again? 'Cause I'm not- [0:35:11](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2111s) So imagine the, the two largest brewers in the world that we're lucky enough to have in our state. [0:35:16](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2116s) Yep. [0:35:16](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2116s) And they are, they re- they are in a wholesaler and only represent a small portion of their portfolio. [0:35:22](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2122s) I see. Okay. [0:35:27](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2127s) Senator Bearden, is there any other language that we could capture that would prevent that, if that's the intent here? [0:35:35](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2135s) I imagine you probably could take that, uh, 15% down if that's a concern. But, you know, I don't see a brewer making 8 million barrels a year. [0:35:43](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2143s) I just wonder if there's something else that we would, that would equate to the actual size of the actual brewer themselves as opposed to what percentage they have of the distributor. [0:35:56](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2156s) And I'm, I'm freewheeling a little bit here, but that would be my question. [0:36:05](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2165s) I don't really see where that is. [0:36:08](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2168s) Bill? [0:36:08](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2168s) I don't agree. [0:36:18](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2178s) Senator Dolezal, do you have, Senator Dolezal, do you have an amendment that might fit that for him already? [0:36:22](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2182s) Yeah, I have four. [0:36:25](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2185s) Four? S- Senator Albers. [0:36:27](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2187s) Maybe to simplify this, we do something of putting with a revenue of more than $100 million, something of that nature. The big boys are gonna be way bigger than that. So it would protect what I believe Mr. Smith is talking about and be able to serve our small businesses. Would you be open to something like that? [0:36:43](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2203s) Yes. [0:36:45](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2205s) I believe that would definitely, um, create a delineation between your two largest ones, would it not, Martin? [0:36:51](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2211s) Yeah, I th- I think it's dangerous to, to just off- as Senator Dolezal said, to kind of w- you said wing it or, or something similar to that- [0:36:58](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2218s) Wing it [0:36:58](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2218s) ... to, to make a, to, to, to pull that- [0:37:01](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2221s) That's old school. [0:37:04](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2224s) That never happens. [0:37:05](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2225s) It would be, it would be- [0:37:06](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2226s) We don't know Martin. [0:37:07](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2227s) It would make a lot more sense to, to, to, to actually capture real world numbers on that. [0:37:13](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2233s) Yeah, but I, kn- knowing who the two largest brewers are and what their revenues are, I can do pretty easy math on that one. Um, at the appropriate time, we'll get to there. I think a friendly memo will probably capture that. [0:37:24](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2244s) Oh, Senator Ginn, you had a question? [0:37:27](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2247s) Um, [0:37:30](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2250s) yes, sir. [0:37:35](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2255s) Senator Bearden, Senator, I know that, that, uh, I, I apologize. I was not able to attend the last meeting. But the bill, the bill's gone through some different changes. I know originally you could have alternate locations for, oh, some of these small brewers. Like, they may have one in one county and then one in another county. Is that still permitted, and can they sell or transfer a product from one, oh, their brewery location to another brewery location and, and distribute in, in that area? [0:38:04](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2284s) The way I understand it, if it's brewed in the county. So it would have to follow under this definition and brewed in that county. [0:38:09](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2289s) And, and can you point me to where that's at in the new bill? [0:38:13](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2293s) It doesn't say that in the new bill, but that's where it would have to be, 'cause it has to be, um, 500 barrels of malt beverage produced at the small brewer's licensed premises at the wholesaler retailer's license. So that's where that captures in the county. They're allowed to do up to 6,000 barrels, 500 be allowed to be sold in the county to which they're in, so those counties are which it's being brewed. [0:38:37](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2317s) And, and I guess if they have, uh, what my question is is, okay, I've got a, oh, a small brewer that's in Fulton County and one that's DeKalb, same, same company. They're licensed in both. And, and how would they s- you know, as far as switching product back and forth between the two breweries, I just, you know, I don't know how that, that w- would come to play if, you know... I know before you had spelled out in the bill the, uh, about switching from product from one location to another. [0:39:05](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2345s) The way I understand that is if I had Tim's Brewery in Carroll County that was brewing, and it was classified as a small brewer in that county, and we had Tim's Pub Part Two in Douglas County, and we brew that amount in that county, then I could do that, be able to do that county as well. [0:39:23](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2363s) Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [0:39:28](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2368s) Senator Williams. [0:39:28](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2368s) Yes, sir. So if you had Tim's Brewery in Fulton County, that means you could cover all of Fulton County. [0:39:35](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2375s) Within the county, yes. [0:39:36](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2376s) Wow. How many- [0:39:38](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2378s) Well, up to 500 barrels, yes. [0:39:41](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2381s) Only limited to 500 barrels? [0:39:43](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2383s) Correct. [0:39:43](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2383s) Okay. How many small brewers are there in Georgia? Is there any way that we know that number? [0:39:52](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2392s) How many? [0:39:54](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2394s) 172, 173. [0:39:56](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2396s) 170, 172. [0:39:58](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2398s) 171. [0:39:59](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2399s) 170 to 172. [0:40:00](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2400s) Okay. [0:40:00](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2400s) So. And- [0:40:02](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2402s) It could be one and a half. [0:40:02](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2402s) Yeah, it could be 170 and a half. [0:40:04](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2404s) And what does it take? Say I make beer in my basement, and I enjoy making my beer, and then, uh, my friends get to enjoying my beer- [0:40:15](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2415s) That's right [0:40:15](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2415s) ... and so I've, I've become a small brewery. I mean, is that how it works? Is that how a lot of these people got into that business? [0:40:25](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2425s) You wanna introduce yourself, Josh? [0:40:26](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2426s) Yep. Yeah. Uh, Josh Mackey, I represent the Georgia Craft Brewers Guild. Um, yeah, there are some people that get into that. There's a lot of people who are professional brewers and have worked around the world and in other states, um, where there are way more breweries in Georgia who come here and decide to open up a business. A lot of, we have a lot of ex-Georg- we have a lot of Georgians who have moved out of Georgia to learn how to make beer who have come back. So there's a whole mix of people that open it. It takes millions of dollars to open up a brewery. Most of these people are taking out SBA loans. [0:40:56](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2456s) Le- I think everybody behind me is leveraging their entire personal livelihood with the SBA to get open and to stay open. [0:41:05](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2465s) Okay. Thank you there- very much. I appreciate that. Thank you. [0:41:10](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2470s) Any more question from the committee? Doc, you got one? What, what number are you? [0:41:14](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2474s) Number one. Uh, number 12, I'm sorry. [0:41:17](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2477s) A long way away from number one. Go ahead, sir. [0:41:20](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2480s) No, I was just gonna ask, would a, what number of barrels would someone recommend? Would 300 be a good amount? [0:41:27](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2487s) No, sir. They've already taken it down from 1,000 to 500. They've r- they've, they've done that in the, in this new bill. They've taken it down. Yes, sir. [0:41:40](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2500s) You got a question? [0:41:41](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2501s) Yeah. [0:41:41](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2501s) Number four? [0:41:42](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2502s) Uh, four. [0:41:44](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2504s) Senator Albers. [0:41:45](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2505s) Josh, if, if rather than using a revenue number in order to define small brewer, if we use barrels, as some people have brought up as a suggestion- [0:41:53](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2513s) Sure [0:41:53](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2513s) ... what would that number be? [0:41:55](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2515s) So I guess I would say first to the definition that's in the current bill, the 15%, uh, I don't think there's any way that Miller or Bud, the giant mega international brewers, would be included in that, in any wholesaler's portfolio, based on the, you know, research that we did. That definition has been in a piece of legislation for three years in r- in a row, including a bill that you introduced, and they never objected to it at that time. I think if you wanted to move away from that percentage, you could look at a barrel production. [0:42:26](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2546s) Um, Budweiser makes 8 million barrels in Georgia at their Cartersville plant. [0:42:30](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2550s) Mm-hmm. [0:42:31](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2551s) So if you put 7 million as the cap-out point, you would cut out Miller and Bud and the two big breweries that the wholesalers say that they're worried about. I'm not sure they'll agree to that definition [0:42:42](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2562s) So, so let's, let's try and find something- [0:42:43](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2563s) Yeah [0:42:43](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2563s) ... that's a little more happy medium. [0:42:45](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2565s) Yeah. [0:42:45](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2565s) Uh, what would be a realistic number that everybody could nod their head and say everybody can get a win out of this? [0:42:50](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2570s) Yeah. Um, the largest craft brewery in Georgia is around 200,000 barrels. [0:42:55](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2575s) Okay. [0:42:55](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2575s) Every other craft brewery is about 50,000 barrels or less. The average craft brewery is under 1,000 barrels in terms of their overall production. As I said, Cartersville, uh, the Budweiser plant in Cartersville makes 8 million barrels a year. So that shows you the completely different scale that we're talking about here. [0:43:14](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2594s) So if we picked a million as a reasonable number to give the opportunity for these to grow over time, then we would, without question, have covered everybody's bases. [0:43:22](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2602s) Yes. [0:43:23](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2603s) Okay. Thank you. [0:43:25](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2605s) All right, gentlemen. Where we are in the posture right now is we're gonna close the public conte- uh, comments. So that's gonna be, that's closed out now. So now it's still left to the committee. Any more on the committee, any more questions on the committee? So here we are. We're at a public, we're at a posi- posture now that we'll entertain a motion, and then we'll look at amendments if we go there. So I'll entertain a motion. [0:43:43](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2623s) Pass. [0:43:44](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2624s) Got a motion to do pass, Senator Albers. Get a second from anybody? [0:43:53](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2633s) No. [0:43:54](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2634s) Let's try that one more time. Anybody want to second that motion or not? [0:43:56](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2636s) No, no, no. [0:43:57](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2637s) Okay. Senator Bearden, uh, your motion dead on the table. [0:44:02](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2642s) All right. This was a chance for the vote, and I appreciate the committee's time very much. [0:44:06](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2646s) Thank you kindly. [0:44:07](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2647s) You all have a good day. [0:44:08](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2648s) Thank you. [0:44:08](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2648s) Still, uh, working. [0:44:10](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2650s) Yeah, still, it can still be worked, you can work it. Thank you. [0:44:13](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2653s) I got my vote. [0:44:17](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2657s) All right. Let's see here. Now we're going into, let me get my, my setback. Senate Bill 34, Senator Hufstetler. [0:44:29](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2669s) Come up here if that's okay and I'll- [0:44:31](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2671s) You want to go to the podium? [0:44:32](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2672s) Yes. [0:44:32](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2672s) All right. [0:44:41](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2681s) You ready for me? [0:44:51](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2691s) Okay, that took care of that one. And we do have some sign up, folks. Uh, anybody else that's popped in, but we have several for, uh, Senate Bill 34 also. Senator Hufstetler, the floor is yours. [0:45:01](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2701s) All right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And, um, the bill, of course, that, that I support is, uh, LC 56-0566-S. I know there's another version as well, um, that I was made aware of. You know, we've talked this pretty thoroughly. We've talked rates. We've argued over rates and, um, add-on charges and different things and what's in place. But, um, what I want to focus on really today is the difference between these two bills, and I think that the, uh, Senate research summary, when I was looking at it here, it says it very well. [0:45:45](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2745s) The Senate research summary on the version that I support says it does three things. It defines large load customers. It prohibits an electric utility from recovering certain costs incurred by providing electricity to these large load customers onto consumers. And then the third thing, which is the language from the House bill that was incorporated, it requires certain contract terms and conditions between electric utilities and large load customers. I think that the Public Service Commission and Georgia Power are, are doing a lot of those right now, no doubt. [0:46:21](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2781s) When you look at the other bill, the summary from Senate research says it defines large load customers, and it requires certain contract terms and conditions between electric utilities and large load customers. Says the substitute differs in that, um, it removes the prohibition against electric utilities recovering certain costs incurred by providing electric, electricity to large load customers to consumers. [0:46:51](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2811s) So in my opinion, this bill offers no protection from our consumers. And, um, I can certainly talk more at the end, but I will leave it at there for right now. [0:47:02](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2822s) Thank you, Chair. Let's see here. Let me call up a few folks here that wants to speak for this bill here. You can come back to the front if you don't mind. Uh, I believe I started with Brooke Mills a while ago. I'm gonna have to limit you, Ms. Mills, so do it quickly please, ma'am. [0:47:19](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2839s) Happy to be on the correct bill this time. Uh, just wanted to, to, uh, provide general support for, for the... My name is Brooke Mills. I just wanted to provide general support to the bill. My, my coworkers and I, um, um, um, have regularly been, been, been struggling with the increases to our electricity rates on account of the data cen- center build-outs here in Georgia. Um, heck, half of them are trying to convince me to ru- run for Senate, but that's a terrible idea. So, uh, let's just try to g- get, get a little bit of control back to the consumer, back to the Georgians on, um, on these crazy rate changes. [0:47:55](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2875s) All right? [0:47:57](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2877s) All right. Thank you. Uh, let me hear from, um, uh, Jason Shaw of PSC. [0:48:06](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2886s) Welcome, Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee. Appreciate the time. Um, I know the hour's late, and then y'all have heard a lot of testimony on this bill. But I do have a few things that I just feel is important for everybody to know. But before I do that, because this is a very serious issue, but I thought I might lighten the load a little bit, if you will. Um, I think, I was sitting here thinking there are some similarities between the last bill and this bill, 'cause if we don't figure this out, it's gonna drive more people to drinking. [0:48:35](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2915s) There you go. [0:48:37](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2917s) There you go. No, seriously, the data centers and the load growth, the unprecedented load growth we've experienced here in our state starting back in around the third quarter of 2023. That's how long your Public Services Commission has been basically working on this night and day. This has been the number one issue we've been facing, we've been dealing with, and I just want to point out, you know, it's not the PSC that's out there recruiting these industries. It's not the PSC that's telling them where to go, but it's our job as regulators is regulating the state's largest investor-owned utility to ensure that their customers have reliability and have service if they have contracted for service, just like any other business. [0:49:18](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2958s) But these are different kind of businesses. These are loads we have not, not seen before, not dealt with before. 100 megawatts used to be, you know, basically unheard of. Now it's, now it seems to be common, and that's what differentiates these customers from, from others, and that's the reason why we work so hard to develop a whole new set of standards and, and new sets of rules and regulations on how to deal with these large load customers. And those rules, and I want to applaud Senator Hufstetler for, for focusing and being interested in this issue because when he started working on this, that was, you know, around the time we had just passed our new rules and regulations. [0:49:55](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=2995s) We've been through so much, y'all. We keep talking about rates. That is so important. When I go- when I took office in January of '19, we basically had a, a, a perfect storm that was already coming our way. With, with two nuclear units that were late, um, that wa- the decisions had already been made to move forward and build those things, and now they're built. But we had to go through the unprecedented amount of dealing with the, with putting all that into the rate base. And I just want to applaud my staff, and I'll stand up for them any day, all day, every day, because they worked so hard to deal with this. [0:50:30](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3030s) I mean, the, the, the final stipulation on that, I mean, you're not going to read this in the papers how much Southern Company shareholders have eaten over the, over those major decisions on that case, but it's over $5 billion. I mean, so to think that we just passed that on, we did the best we could. It wasn't our fault that it was, you know, behind schedule, and then you had a global pandemic and supply chain nightmares. But we did the best we could. And that fuel case in '23 was the single largest hit to ratepayers. That was $16 a month to the average th- 1,000 kilowatt customer. That was more than Vogtle combined and the rate cases. [0:51:02](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3062s) And that wasn't a rate case. That was a rate case in, that had one rate increase that we staggered it out to try to help ratepayers. So it wasn't six, it was four. So t- that being said, data centers is the number one issue. I realize that y'all are getting worn out on it. We're getting worn out on it. But, but the f- the fact of the matter is, is we're already seeing the, the fruits of our labor, I'll say, from the rules that we've passed and what we're seeing from how these revenues from these large load customers that have already contracted are actually helping us stabilize rates in the state. [0:51:34](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3094s) The rate freezes, the r- the reason for that is these revenues, is the way we're able to do that. Nobody else is doing that. Our governor's got a message that he's using every day. He'll tell you that. He's got a message with regards to what we're done here that nobody else can say. And I, I just want to say that I'm standing up here today on behalf of my staff because they've been catching a lot on this, and they worked hard on this, and it's starting to get a little personal, if you will. Um, let's face it. There's a lot of controversy on this because we can all argue all day about what, what it's going to take to keep the lights on. [0:52:06](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3126s) And, and you could say that everywhere. These last two big winter storms, even your blue states like New York, over 50% of their fuel source that kept their lights on was natural gas. So how do you think you're going to just stop the gas and keep the lights on? It ain't going to happen, y'all. We all want clean energy. We all want everything. But you're not going to be able to power this grid, even without all this new load, with nothing but re- new technologies right now. Maybe one day. I hope so. But natural gas is the backbone of the grid right now in this country, whether you like it or not. States like Georgia are 40-something percent reliant on gas in these storms. [0:52:38](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3158s) Florida's about 70%. So just want to put that on the record. So with that being said, I'm happy to answer questions. We can get-- I've got Tom Bond here with me. He can get into the weeds better than anybody. This is the, this guy is an institution at the Public Service Commission, y'all. And, uh, I, I just want to thank y'all for your interest in this, and I just want us to all try to work together to get this done because I w- I don't want to see us... We have got to have flexibility, y'all. We've worked hard on this, but I don't think we're done. We're still seeing these loads increase. [0:53:08](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3188s) We've seen another roughly 14,000 megawatts in the pipeline added just since the last quarter because we're making Georgia Power file these large load forecasts every quarter. They just filed one two weeks ago. It's got, it's went from 51,000 to 65,000 megawatts. Now, I know th- this is going to slow down at some point, but it ain't slowing down yet, and the size of these loads continues to grow. We've got 3,000 megawatt customers that are trying to get service. And I think we're going to continue to need to tweak these rules and regulations as these loads change. We're still learning every day about this, y'all. [0:53:39](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3219s) But we've got it. We're doing the right thing. We're doing this right, and it's showing. And you can ask regulators that when, consultants we deal with all over this country, and you'll probably see it in the President's State of the State address, I think it's tonight, that you'll probably hear something about what Georgia's doing. And we're proud of what we're doing, and I'm going to stand here today and tell y'all that I'm proud of my staff, and I appreciate y'all's support. [0:54:02](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3242s) Uh, Chairman, before I turn it over to committee, just want to make sure about it. Y- you know there's two subs here. There's two committee subs here. Would you not agree that, that the, the subs that we have here, just making sure, what we're all here to do is, is make sure data centers can come. We don't care about that, but they got to... Anything they pay over and above is going to be returned back to the people. That's what your, your, your set up also. So the fu- the funding they'll have. We set up, go back to the people. [0:54:25](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3265s) I think, yes. Chair- Mr. Chairman, we are, I think we're all in agreement that these data centers and these large loads have to pay I'm not gonna say their fair share, 'cause what we're doing now, they're paying more than their fair share. [0:54:36](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3276s) Right. [0:54:36](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3276s) That's why the, we're seeing the, the, the downward pressure. Okay? But what, what I, what I am saying is that we... I feel like really strongly that we're gonna need some flexibility. We don't need to be waiting until y'all to get back here in January when, when, when things change all of a sudden and, and, and we need to be able to react and strengthen these rules. Now it's look, it's a split opinion. You've got some in the development community that think our rules are way too strong, and then you got others that say it ain't strong enough. But I think we've struck a could- pretty good balance, 'cause y'all know what you do up here is you try to strike that balance, and that's what we've been trying to do. [0:55:10](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3310s) Got a question from our pro tem. Pro Tem Moore. [0:55:14](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3314s) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to ask a few questions- [0:55:18](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3318s) Please do, man [0:55:18](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3318s) ... if you'll allow me. Thank you for being here, Chairman Shaw. [0:55:21](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3321s) Yes, sir. Thank you. [0:55:21](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3321s) Appreciate your service. Um, it seems to me like the legislature has a real, real, real, real short memory, and it's only been a little over a year ago that we were, uh, praising Georgia Power and our EMCs and all the line workers for getting us back after Hurricane Helene. And so I'm proud that we have a system that allows some resiliency and, and I want to just compliment all the utility providers that came in after Helene, which impacted my district and south of me and, and east of me. [0:56:01](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3361s) It was un- unprecedented, like a nuclear bomb had gone off, and it... I was amazed how quick they got people back online. And I, I think, I guess I would segue that in to saying as you, as you go and meet with other states and other, uh, regulators, tell us a little bit about why the, our system is better and why it's serving Geo- has served Georgia better and why we're in the enviable position we are nationwide as far as affordable power and an attractive place for all these businesses to come and locate and, and we have a stable, resilient grid. [0:56:39](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3399s) Uh, just speak to that briefly and then I have a follow-up. [0:56:42](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3402s) Yes, sir, Mr. Pro Tem. I think what sets us apart is we do have a very constructive relationship with our carriers in this state, even the ones that we don't set rules for and rates for, like the EMCs and the municipal providers. But what we also have that's very unique here is our integrated transmission system, which is a system that's mutually shared by not just Georgia Power and the Southern Company folks and their footprint around the South, but with our EMC families and Oglethorpe and our municipals. When, when you have these type large loads that are going and, and impacting the grid in the way they're doing, they share those responsibilities. [0:57:16](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3436s) They all have their 10-year transmission plans, and they're able to, uh, react a lot faster than, say, y'all hear the nightmares about what's happened in the PJM territories and these, uh, regional transmission organizations where they are under federal oversight for all their transmission. I think the, the, our, part of our secret sauce is, is our integrated transmission that we have here that's unique. Uh, on top of the fact that we've just got great, great utilities here. I mean, we have faced some challenges with rates that others haven't because we are the state that built the first nuclear reactors in 30-plus years in this country, and we have got that behind us now. [0:57:55](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3475s) But at the same time, uh, what we're doing here as far as being able to stabilize rates, that's not happening everywhere. We're still, still seeing inflationary pressures on the energy prices, electric prices in this country in a pretty big way, even our, even in our neighboring states very recently. And, um, you know, I mean, we didn't, we... Electric prices in this country went up 13% or so higher than groceries during that four-year inflationary period. Let's not forget that. And it... and rather than pointing fingers, that's a national issue. [0:58:25](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3505s) It's still a national problem. But I feel like we are in the right spot with, with being able to stabilize these rates because Lord knows everybody's tired of increases. [0:58:35](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3515s) So my question, we've got two versions. We've got LC 560566S and LC0584S, and both versions make it clear that large load customers have to pay their way and that we won't shift the burden or the cost of these large load customers onto the residential rate payer. They're... both bills do that. My concern is the Senator Hufstetler's preferred version, 560566S, has language that I feel like is... [0:59:16](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3556s) and like if you look at line 17 through 19, and then we're really 17 through, um, I guess 26- [0:59:24](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3564s) 26 [0:59:24](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3564s) ... that I think would hamstring the, the PSC for one, uh, and I think it also would create a lot of litigation and lawsuits between large load customers and the PSC or the utility providers to try to parse out what is the actual, um, cost incurred. And it- that's complicated as it could be to say because you have that shared transmission system, you've got... [0:59:59](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3599s) I mean, I, I don't know what kind of accountant w- it would, how many slews of accountants it would take to parse all that out. I think instead we need to trust our experts at PSC to contract and put in rules and regs and, and, and sign really tight contracts to make sure that the rate payer, the residential rate payer is protected. And, um, the other bill requires in law that you do that. [1:00:32](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3632s) But it doesn't complicate it with this accounting nightmare and lawsuit scenario, in my opinion. Is, is that- [1:00:39](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3639s) And I appreciate that [1:00:40](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3640s) ... off base or- [1:00:41](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3641s) I completely agree with you, and it also goes back to what I mentioned about having that flexibility to continue to evolve and adapt as this, this technology does. I mean, we need to be able to react as quick as possible because these loads are continuing to get larger and larger, and we're gonna ha- continue to have to learn from that and continue to make sure that if we need to make changes to guarantee, to continue to guarantee that we're protecting all the other rate payers, we need that flexibility. [1:01:08](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3668s) And Mr. Chairman, I think you all call it tariffs, but tell us about these large load contracts and the tariffs and that they are indeed paying their fair share of the, of the marginal cost to pro- provide power to them and, and then some, and they're running at night, which helps the rate base. So it actually is, is benefiting the residential rate payer. Is that not correct? [1:01:36](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3696s) It is because of the fact that these ... what I mentioned about the rules and regs and the contractual obligations that these loads that meet that definition have to enter into, it's, it's, it's, it's the most strict thing by far that we've ever done to customers in this state. And it's, it's ... There's so much that, that goes into the front end of this, not just the security and the performance guarantees, but the, the cost that they're having to pay for all these studies, the studies to the transmission, the distribution, the, the generation, and then locking them in for these long-term contracts and guaranteeing that the minimum bill provisions and all these other parts of the rules guarantee that, that they are paying these costs as they should. [1:02:20](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3740s) Thank you. [1:02:23](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3743s) Any questions from the committee? [1:02:26](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3746s) And if there's any more, you know, specific ... you know, if you wanna get in the weeds, we can get- [1:02:29](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3749s) Yeah, Mr. Chairman [1:02:30](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3750s) ... Mr. Bond- [1:02:31](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3751s) Senator Dolezal, you got a question for the chairman? Okay. [1:02:35](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3755s) Thank you. Um, thank you for being here. Your expertise is super helpful in this. Help me understand how the language that Senator Huffstetler has prevents you from being nimble. I, I ... 'cause I don't know the ins and outs of what y'all do, and just as a layman reading this, I'm like, okay, um, it seems to do the exact same thing that y'all are saying you want to accomplish. And so help us understand the ins and the outs of your process that this language would stop, um, it would take away your ability to kinda, as you said, keep, keep up as things scale. [1:03:05](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3785s) If there's ... Uh, that's the question. [1:03:08](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3788s) You know, and, uh, Senator, and, and if you don't mind, and Mr. Chairman, I would really appreciate it if I could let Mr. Bond kinda get real into the detail on exactly what, uh, what the, what, what the gist of that is in terms of why this ... what, what this language would do in terms of preventing us from having that flexibility that I mentioned, if that's all right. [1:03:31](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3811s) Where is Mr. Bond? [1:03:32](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3812s) He's right here. [1:03:36](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3816s) As in James or just Bond or- [1:03:39](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3819s) Yes. [1:03:39](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3819s) You're not on the sign up here. [1:03:40](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3820s) It's, uh, To- Tom Bond, unfortunately, not James. [1:03:43](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3823s) You had it going on, but you said stuck with James. [1:03:45](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3825s) Yeah. Yep. Yep. [1:03:45](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3825s) Why can I not start? [1:03:46](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3826s) Um, I, I think what the, what the chairman was- [1:03:49](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3829s) Oh, you will, sir. Tell, tell us [1:03:50](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3830s) ... uh, what, what the chairman was alluding to is the, Senator Huffstetler's bill starts off, it, it ... he's essentially doing, stating in there what the commission is already doing right now. Um, but keep in mind, the, the commission started doing this over a year ago on the, on the bill, on the contracts with large load customers because it's, it moves quickly and we designed contracts- [1:04:25](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3865s) Mm [1:04:25](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3865s) ... to where we thought large load customers were going to be. Um, now you can, you can ... and then you can lock, you can lock that in now, but the potential danger you have is, is the nature of this market going to evolve even more? Um, for example, the, the chairman said now instead of thousand-megawatt customers in the pipeline, we're starting to see 3,000-megawatt customers in the pipeline. [1:04:57](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3897s) Are the protections that you have in place for 100-megawatt customers up to 1,000-megawatt customers the same protections that you want for a 3,000-megawatt customer? I don't know. That's one of those things that, that's gonna take a lot of review and, and watching the market, watching what other states are doing, watching what the, the data centers are doing, and I think the, the commission's position- [1:05:25](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3925s) What I don't understand, I think it was responding to my question. Um, what I don't understand is how this language stops you from doing that. Can you help ... like, specifically, what words that he has put in here stop you from calculating a 3,000 versus a 1,500 if you're already doing it? This, this was my same question last year that I really haven't gotten a great answer to. If you're already doing it, why the pushback? I, I mean, there's a tremendous amount of pushback to putting language into code that everybody tells me is already happening, and I'm a simple guy. [1:05:57](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3957s) I don't understand if it's already happening why you wouldn't just say, "Yeah, we're already doing it. Great. Throw it in there." But more specifically, this process that you're describing, this future evolution, larger data centers or whatever, how does this stop you from adjusting your rates to ensure that the capacity expansion is not taken on by residential rate payers? What's stopping you from doing that? [1:06:20](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3980s) Now, are, are you referring to his, his part B or his part C? Because they're- [1:06:23](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3983s) Well, you tell me what, you tell me what you're referring to [1:06:26](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3986s) ... they're doing- [1:06:27](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3987s) Because- [1:06:27](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3987s) I'm referring to both of them. [1:06:28](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3988s) Okay. [1:06:28](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3988s) I think they both- [1:06:28](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3988s) So you're opposed to both [1:06:29](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=3989s) ... they both lock the commission into particular ways of, of dealing with these, and right now, that's what the commission is doing. The commission- [1:06:40](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4000s) agrees with these in their orders and is, and is actually doing these. What I'm saying is, if you had asked me three years ago what conditions we would need for thousand-megawatt customers, I would've said, "I don't have any idea. I haven't had a chance to study it. I don't know what the, the market is looking like." [1:06:58](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4018s) I would say- [1:06:59](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4019s) Um- [1:06:59](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4019s) ... respectfully, the second piece, the piece that you guys are advocating for- [1:07:03](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4023s) No [1:07:03](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4023s) ... in favor of- [1:07:05](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4025s) But the- [1:07:05](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4025s) ... is actually more prescriptive than what Hufstetler has. [1:07:08](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4028s) The, the- [1:07:08](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4028s) 'Cause it spells out what the contracts need to have. It says what the terms ... Like, w- you have to have terms. And all that he's saying in his is you just can't charge residential customers. [1:07:18](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4038s) The commission- [1:07:18](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4038s) And so- [1:07:19](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4039s) ... not advocating for either. [1:07:21](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4041s) Okay. Well, whatever ... What I've been lobbied on by seemingly everybody in this ... So y- so what is the commission advocating for then? [1:07:27](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4047s) The, the commission is advocating that we are currently regulating this under the authority you've already given us, and that we're not taking a position on either bill other than to say that we're already doing this. And if we have the flexibility to change as circumstances change- [1:07:52](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4072s) I see. So- [1:07:53](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4073s) ... that benefits everybody. [1:07:54](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4074s) O- [1:07:54](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4074s) We may not ever change. [1:07:56](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4076s) So- [1:07:56](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4076s) I just ... You know, we don't know what, what the future of this market is bringing. [1:08:02](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4082s) So your position would be basically, "Don't pass any bill. We're, we're taking care of this. We've been elected to figure this out. We're the experts." I mean, a- and admittedly, you guys know more about this than us. You would rather see just kinda this concept more or less go away, let y'all- [1:08:15](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4095s) We're, we're, we're thankful that y'all are codifying our legislation, but what we're saying is here is if you're gonna codify it and tie our hands from being able to continue to adapt ... I mean, what if, what if y'all in... What if we had another pandemic and y'all couldn't meet for another six months even when you're supposed to meet? And we're, we're dealing with a, a crisis in this market. We want to have that flexibility like we've always had to continue to do our jobs and just, and be able to deal with the problem that as it comes up. I mean, for, for instance, if, if the utilities see something out there and, and, and feel like ... [1:08:49](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4129s) You know, 'cause what, quite frankly, these rules were, were not just done by us. This was constructively done out of the concern from the utilities as well, even the ones we don't regulate. I mean, I guarantee you that o- the EMCs are doing the same thing and making these customers pay their costs as well. [1:09:03](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4143s) Okay. So h- here's, here's ... Just ... And maybe you're not aware of the, kind of the fight that's, that's in the room. There's section B and there's section C, right? And Hufstetler's lobbying for section B. Somebody else is lobbying for section C. You guys are saying, "We're already doing it." And what I'm asking for clarity on is what in either of these sections, specifically section B, 'cause that's the one that Senator Hufstetler's lobbying for, what in section B ties your hands? [1:09:32](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4172s) Well, the ... I'll let him answer specifically, but the, but the ... There is another bill. There's the House bill that's also codifying this in tac- you know, in a legislative response to making sure that other ratepayers aren't paying the bills as well, but it does not remove the flexibility that we're talking about. [1:09:50](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4190s) It's my understanding the House bill is section C. And, and what I'm saying reading the language is section C seems to spell w- out much more specifically what these contracts need to look like than, than section B. It's ... I, I've, I've, I've kinda asked the same question multiple times. I'll, I'll stop, uh- [1:10:07](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4207s) Okay. I, I ... Just to m- bring this back around, I believe in section B, if, if, if memory serves- [1:10:14](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4214s) Section B [1:10:14](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4214s) ... I get to you. Just a- [1:10:15](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4215s) Section B. [1:10:16](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4216s) Yes, sir. S- No, no. In the, in, in Senator Hufstetler's bill. [1:10:19](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4219s) Yeah, section B. [1:10:20](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4220s) Which one is that? [1:10:21](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4221s) The Hufstetler- [1:10:21](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4221s) Section B [1:10:22](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4222s) ... not the [1:10:23](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4223s) Yes, sir. Yes, sir. We're talking about section B in Senator Hufstetler's bill. Uh, uh, Chairman Shaw, correct me if I'm wrong. [1:10:28](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4228s) The Hufstetler section. [1:10:29](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4229s) It would a- s- his bill, if you pass section B like it was, it would've affected y- you all, and I can't speak for Georgia Power, or you can't, but it, uh, the free, the three-year rate freeze, you were freezing the rates for three years. How is se- how did section B affect that? [1:10:46](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4246s) Um ... [1:10:47](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4247s) It didn't. [1:10:50](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4250s) Burns. [1:10:51](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4251s) Well- [1:10:52](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4252s) It was [1:10:52](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4252s) ... yeah, I mean- [1:10:53](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4253s) We may need to get, uh, Aaron Mitchell. Aaron, are you in the audience somewhere? Matt? [1:10:56](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4256s) It doesn't, it wouldn't affect section B because rates are frozen for the next three years, and the data center costs weren't in the cost to service study that was used to set those rates. So the data center costs aren't currently in there. I- it's ... In other words, last year people were complaining that data centers were gonna increase the rates, and everybody would said, "Oh, no, we have a Georgia Power rate case coming up and rates are gonna go up because of the data centers." And the commission nipped that in the bud and froze the rates. [1:11:28](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4288s) So the data center costs are not in the current rates. So that, so nothing would change for the next three years. Um- [1:11:36](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4296s) Chairman Brass. [1:11:38](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4298s) So yeah, I wanted to kinda comment, and I guess I'll come up with a question. But Chairman Shaw, you had mentioned having flexibility and then, you know, it, what happens if a pandemic comes up. And to me, the point of the legislation in codifying this is in case something like that does happen, you don't have the ability to, to take it to withdraw your rule. [1:12:08](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4328s) We're codifying it to protect the ratepayers at all costs. And, uh, no matter if there's a pandemic or not, we're, we're ensure ... The, the point of the bill is to ensure that, that we are protecting those ratepayers no matter what, and that I agree with. What we are trying to figure out as a committee, and eventually as a, as a body, is which section is gonna do that. Which section, if not both, which section will ensure that what y'all currently have in rule [1:12:46](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4366s) That data centers cannot pass on cost, uh, to ratepa- or Georgia Power cannot pass on cost to ratepayers caused by data centers. Which one of these, B or C or both, is gonna help us ni- help us codify that? That is the whole point. And, and I think you, you brought it up about it being a, you know, if we, if we do have that emergency. And that is the whole purpose of the bill, I do believe. To take that, take y'all's ability away from being able to pull back. [1:13:19](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4399s) That is, I think, I think the will of the committee's gonna be is, is we don't want you to have that flexibility. There's plenty of other flexibility within it that we want you to have, and you should have as the technology changes, as the demand changes. That, that needs to be there, but, but if there's gonna be these cost, and one day the data centers just disappear, and, uh, they're not gonna be able to worry. They're... You can't pass that on to the ratepayer. [1:13:51](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4431s) That is the purpose. So we need to know which section does that, if not both. [1:13:57](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4437s) Well, with, uh, with all due respect, I had, did not have a chance to read all these. That's why I brought my- [1:14:01](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4441s) That's all right [1:14:02](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4442s) ... attorney. [1:14:02](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4442s) I gotcha. [1:14:03](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4443s) Uh, 'cause I know he's been combing through this, so. [1:14:07](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4447s) I mean, the, the two are not doing the same thing. [1:14:11](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4451s) Right. [1:14:11](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4451s) And the commission has said that, you know, the commission's already implemented C. Those are the contracts that, that we did. The next rate case will be filed in '28, and that's when the cost of service would be set. So that's when... And the commission has stated that it wouldn't put any cost on, um, any data center costs on non-data center customers, and so the cost of service is where you would do that in the rates. [1:14:46](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4486s) So, so C- [1:14:46](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4486s) So you're saying, so C- [1:14:48](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4488s) So- [1:14:48](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4488s) ... codifies what you're doing. We're, we would take away your flexibility to, to remove that from the rule essentially, 'cause our law would override any rule changes you make. [1:14:59](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4499s) Yeah. [1:14:59](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4499s) So C would accomplish exactly what's in, what y'all have in a rule right now. [1:15:04](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4504s) Yeah. The, the, the rule deals with the contracts, not with the rates. So they're, they're two different things. The, the contracts have minimum bills for the contracts, but the contracts are not the tariffed rates. They refer to the tariff rates that are paid, but the contracts do not contain the rates that the customers pay. [1:15:29](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4529s) And C is addressing the contracts. [1:15:32](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4532s) Yeah. [1:15:32](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4532s) And B is addressing what? [1:15:34](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4534s) The rates. [1:15:35](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4535s) The rates. [1:15:36](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4536s) There's a testimony right now on this. I'm gonna check the bill. [1:15:38](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4538s) Okay. That might help Chairman Dolezal a little bit. [1:15:42](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4542s) Do you mind if we call Aaron Mitchell? You know Aaron. Will you c- come up to the podium and give us Georgia Power's take on this right quick, like, if you don't mind? You might answer these questions Senator Brass, Senator Dolezal had. [1:15:53](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4553s) Sure. I, I would be happy to. Um, committee thank you for, uh, giving me the opportunity to speak. Again, I'm Aaron Mitchell. I'm v- senior vice president of Strategic Growth. At Georgia Power we focus on our largest customers, including the, the pricing, contracting, uh, and ensuring that we are able to serve large customers, not just data centers, but large customers in total. Um, Senator Dolezal, I'll answer your question if you bear with me for a minute. Um, I, I wanna echo what I said last time. We agree with the intent of Senator Hufstetler's bill, uh, just not the way that it's getting done. [1:16:28](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4588s) And, and my response to, to why is at the root of your very question, uh, Senator Brass and, and Dolezal. Um, the reason is because we think it endangers, uh, the ability for us to provide the benefits that are already materializing, um, as a result of us serving growth in the state of Georgia. Uh, Chairman Shaw highlighted, um, some of those, but those are a rate freeze in Georgia at a time when the other utilities across the nation are asking for rate increases. [1:17:02](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4622s) Georgia has frozen, Georgia Power has frozen rates. That freeze carries through the end of 2028, again, enabled by additional revenues from large loads at a time when we are spending billions to serve those large loads. So that gives you insight into the revenues being higher than the costs that we are, uh, incurring to serve those. The second benefit, uh, that we've committed to and been ordered to by the commission is to provide savings. Once that rate freeze ends, starting in 2029 to 2031, we're gonna provide savings of $1.6 billion to all customers, um, as a result, again, of serving these large loads. [1:17:46](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4666s) Um, and our, our concern in the bill really lies in, uh, section B. Um, and it, it is because, um, the language in that section engages in rate making. Um, rate making is a very complex thing. Um, before my f- my current role, um, I served as vice president of pricing and planning. Um, in that role, I was responsible for the Department of Pricing and Rates, um, which was responsible for understanding every bit of the company's costs and designing rates to recover those costs, present those to the commission for review and ultimate approval from the commission. [1:18:30](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4710s) Um, the very definition of rate making is, um, the determination of costs or the, the identification and pricing of costs- Of service, of providing electric service to a, to a customer. That's what paragraph B is doing, identification of costs, uh, and telling the commission and the company how to treat those costs through recovery of rate making. Again, intent, we agree with the intent, just not, uh, that inartful way of, of legislating that, um, in the, um, in the piece of legislation. [1:19:11](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4751s) Um, of an example that maybe illustrates why that's problematic, um, when we look to, um, do rate making, um, you've heard some numbers around the, the total dollars that we're gonna spend to serve large loads. I heard a number this week that was around $60 billion, uh, to serve large loads. That number is untrue, um, and incorrect. The actual number, uh, that we're investing in the generation that the commission approved and the transmission plan that the commission approved, uh, of capital that we're investing in the ground to serve large loads is around $20 billion. [1:19:51](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4791s) Okay, that $20 billion includes all costs of service, uh, from generator all the way to the customer's meter and everything in between. Um, within that, um, there are different cost transmission, new generation, et cetera. Um, to give you an example of the benefit of the current structure, including the rules and regulations update from the commission's order last January, um, and the current rates, um, I, I thought an example of a natural gas combined cycle, um, would be great. [1:20:28](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4828s) It's a 45-year investment. Uh, when we build a natural gas combined cycle, we expect it to run for 45 years. As you know, um, we are contracting with large data centers for 15 to 20 years, right? So there's been some concern that all the costs aren't covered. But, um, because rate making is complex and under the commission's oversight and rules, that 20-year co- at the end of that 20-year contract, we will have recovered 90% of the initial capital investment on a net present value basis of that 45-year asset. [1:21:06](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4866s) So I'll say that again for emphasis. Over that 20 years, 90% of that 45-year asset will be ha- have been paid for by that large, those large customers. Um, this is what I mean by our concern about rate making. There, our ability to appropriately price and ensure that revenues are in excess of the costs are really what's creating our benefit, um, that Georgia and Georgia Power has figured out, that many other utilities and the federal government are, are seeking to understand how we are doing it. [1:21:44](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4904s) So Senator Dolezal, I hope that helps to answer the question. The, the other section from House Bill 1063, um, also testified at that hearing to say we believe that those benefits are in effect now, um, and that it may not be necessary, but at the end of the day, we took a neutral position on that and, and yielded to the will of the committee on those, um, as we see those being protective of customers. [1:22:12](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4932s) Senator Dolezal, have you completed your line of questioning or did you have a follow-up there? [1:22:16](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4936s) I just need, I got a follow-up. [1:22:18](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4938s) Thank you. Great to be back. [1:22:20](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4940s) Deep on it. Um, my first question would be, I- i- is, is your, um, is it your testimony that essentially given the 20-year payoff on the 45-year facility that you are able to capture additional revenue with these contracts that you don't believe Senator Hufstetler's language allows you to capture? [1:22:42](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4962s) Yes, and I, I think similar, um- [1:22:44](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4964s) I don't think that's his intent. I don't think his intent is to stop you from having contracts, and I don't even read in the plain reading of the language how that would happen. I'd, I'd like you to help me understand that. Hi- I, I believe that his in- I know that his intent is essentially, very simply, that no costs to do with increased fuel requirements, generation costs or transmission costs related to essentially data centers get passed on to residential customers. Or, and I, I believe that you would say you're also confident that that's not currently in the rate for residential customers now, correct? [1:23:16](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4996s) That they're not paying for any- [1:23:17](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4997s) Yes [1:23:17](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4997s) ... of those costs? Confident. [1:23:18](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4998s) Yes. [1:23:18](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4998s) Yes, sir. [1:23:19](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=4999s) So if we're confident of that, and essentially we're just trying to ensure that we can collect what we're able to collect, m- uh, m- my question would be, what's the language that causes you to believe that y'all are not able to collect above your actual cost from the data center customer? [1:23:39](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5019s) I think it's a, it's a, a creation of a, um, an alternate track for these loads in the rate making process when we go to the commission to say, "Here's our system of 155 counties, all the costs to serve all the customers. Each customers get their appropriate share of the system costs," overridden by this, um, where we may have customers come in and say, um, "That's an inappropriate allocation to large customers," a- and restrict the commission's ability to ensure benefits a- are flowing to residential customers. [1:24:15](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5055s) That's the true heart of it, Senator. [1:24:17](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5057s) Okay. Thank you. [1:24:19](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5059s) So are you saying if we put language in here where you can recover more than the cost, that that would satisfy your concern? [1:24:29](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5069s) Um, it's- [1:24:29](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5069s) You're afraid, you're afraid the way it's written you could not charge more and give the benefit to the residential customers, let's say, or not? [1:24:36](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5076s) That's the concern, is that we couldn't, couldn't do what we're doing. Uh, uh, you know, to answer your question directly, I don't know. Um, it's, like I said, rate making is complex and, and with- People on our team that are far smarter than me, um, that get into the determination of those costs and allocation of the costs with Chair Marshall and Mr. Bond's team. [1:24:57](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5097s) Okay. Senator Albers, uh, Senator Lucas had his hand up first. I'm gonna recognize him first. Senator Lucas, you're recognized for a question. [1:25:04](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5104s) Yeah. Isn't it true, what, what you're doing by taking the Section B of Senator Hufstetler's act is to make sure that the data centers are paying ooh gobs of money- [1:25:21](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5121s) Ooh gobs [1:25:22](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5122s) ... above the rate. And so by them paying ooh gobs of money, that means you can press down the rate to residential and other customers. Under the language, I believe, and I'm no lawyer, but, uh, my understanding would be that under the language B of the paragraph of, of Senator Hufstetler's bill, you would not be able to take that extra money and push down the, uh, rate to the utility customers. [1:26:00](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5160s) That... Our concern is that it end- endangers our ability to do just that. And we, you know, w- as... We're overseen by the commission, but the company now has a p- a, a, the ability to ensure that these customers are, uh, paying their costs and that the revenues are actually higher, uh, than those costs. Appropriately so. Not that they're being overcharged. They're appropriately being charged, uh, for the cost of service, and our- all of our customers are benefiting from that. [1:26:33](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5193s) And we don't want to inadvertently, uh, have harm to that construct so that we can't continue to deliver what, right now, few other utilities across the nation are able to deliver in rate stability. [1:26:46](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5206s) So are you saying that the rate for a mega user is higher per kilowatt than a residential user under this type of contractual relationship? [1:26:58](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5218s) No, that's also complicated. Um, the, the revenue coming from that customer- [1:27:03](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5223s) Mm [1:27:03](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5223s) ... is higher than the costs. Um, it recovers those costs faster than a residential customer would pay the costs that we're incurring to serve them. [1:27:14](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5234s) Okay. [1:27:14](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5234s) And that's because we're managing risk. Um, and we want to ensure that those costs are recovered faster. It provides revenues in excess of those costs in the near term, so that later on the risk is managed down on those other assets, like the generator I gave you. All other customers then benefit from a more cost-effective system. [1:27:33](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5253s) What's the construction cost on a, just one gas-fired power plant? [1:27:39](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5259s) Oh, that ranges. I th- I think, um, public numbers that, that I've seen reported around the industry can be $2.5 billion or higher. [1:27:50](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5270s) And how many are you planning on building in accordance with the plan that's been approved? [1:27:54](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5274s) Uh, five. Our total investment, including, um, those natural gas combined cycles, uh, as well as 4,000 megawatts of battery energy storage systems, is around $15 or $16 billion. [1:28:09](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5289s) Uh, and you're gonna build those within the next five years? [1:28:12](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5292s) Yes, sir. [1:28:13](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5293s) Okay. In the current law and regulatory scheme, are you able to require one of these large load users to pay like a down payment up front, a part of the power gen- like to build that 2.5 billion plant, can you require one of them to give you 1 billion up front? [1:28:33](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5313s) Um, not necessarily for the generator, but we are, on the transmission side, charging them tens- [1:28:38](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5318s) Yeah [1:28:38](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5318s) ... or hundreds of millions of dollars for that infrastructure. [1:28:40](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5320s) And that's because those transmission lines would not even be necessary unless you were trying to hook up that- [1:28:45](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5325s) That's right [1:28:45](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5325s) ... data center. [1:28:46](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5326s) And they serve only that customer. [1:28:47](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5327s) Yeah. [1:28:48](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5328s) The bulk system can be enjoyed by all customers- [1:28:52](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5332s) Mm [1:28:52](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5332s) ... even a new customer that we don't know about. [1:28:54](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5334s) So the, the fear that I keep hearing from the public is that what if you go build that $2.5 billion plant and the data center goes bankrupt, and you're planning to recoup it over 20 years. [1:29:07](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5347s) Right. [1:29:07](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5347s) But if they're gone, or the bond doesn't pay off or whatever, then, then we're stuck holding the ball there. [1:29:14](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5354s) Well, that's the reason why we have performance security to cover that termination amount, and that termination amount in the e- event of default or an elected termination, uh, is meant to cover those costs so that other customers don't have to. [1:29:27](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5367s) So they're paying, putting up a $2.5 billion bond? [1:29:30](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5370s) Uh, yes. [1:29:30](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5370s) Or some big percentage of that? [1:29:33](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5373s) Um, we have some customers in that range. Yes, sir. [1:29:35](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5375s) All right. Senator Albers, you're recognized. [1:29:38](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5378s) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good to see you again. [1:29:39](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5379s) You too. [1:29:39](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5379s) And I want to first echo the pro tem's comments on the great response to Hurricane Helene and others, and I appreciate the conversations we have been having about the new focus on this area. I, I think where we miss each other, we all do, is what has happened over the last many years. We discussed last year and the year before about the increase of the rates that our average families are paying at a time- [1:30:01](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5401s) Right [1:30:01](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5401s) ... of very difficult increase of prices across the board over the last five years. But I'm a math guy, and when I look back at Southern Company, and specifically Georgia Power, and I look at your revenue over the last 10 years, but I'll even take the last four where the rate increases happened, you had record revenue. In fact, in some cases, 50% more. Your profitability in the last four years was almost 50% more than the four years before that. Your stock price went up 50%. [1:30:32](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5432s) Now, I'm a capitalist, but if this is a regulated industry and we say, "Well, costs gotta go up for the consumers who are suffering," but at the same time you're breaking every single record across the board, we're out of balance. So you have to understand that the bills that Senator Hufstetler, and this probably goes to Jason and Tom as well, there's a reason why we're having these conversations, because it just, the math doesn't, doesn't add up right now. So we need a solution, and the current one hasn't worked up to this point. [1:31:02](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5462s) So help us help you, but we gotta find an answer to this very important question. [1:31:08](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5468s) Understood. And thank you, Senator. And I'll take your numbers, uh, to be true, uh, having not fact-checked all those. But- [1:31:16](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5476s) It's your website [1:31:16](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5476s) ... I believe you. Um, uh, you know, it, it is true. Um, what's also true is that, um, as Chairman Shaw said, the biggest increase during that period was out of our control or any of our control, um, due to fuel prices, that $16, um, due, due to the invasion of Ukraine and the ripple efflec- effect of natural gas prices around the world. What's, what is also true, uh, further, is that we froze rates last year. [1:31:47](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5507s) Rates will not increase, right? At a time when we're growing our system and investing even more, rates will not increase, without question. Um, not many utilities can say that. It's, uh, further true that, um, this month we made a filing at the commission to recover, and, and thank you for your kind words on storm response. Um, we pride ourselves in that, but never want to have to do it, because we know our, our customers and, and fellow citizens are impacted. Um, $900 million worth of costs incurred there. [1:32:22](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5542s) Um, that's proposed to be recovered from the commission at the same time as a fuel adjustment rate, and we will decrease rates in June of this year. So I take what you say very seriously, um, all of it, uh, including how our product and our pricing impacts our customers, and I hope what you all hear is that we are very impassioned about, uh, providing benefits to our customers. We don't want anything unintended to prevent that. And the benefits that you're starting to see, starting with the rate freeze and the commitment of $1.6 billion, uh, i- in savings to customers, we are incentivized, and our pledge is to take that as far as we can, uh, to contin- continue to further those efforts. [1:33:11](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5591s) And I, if I could, Mr. Chairman. [1:33:12](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5592s) Go right ahead. [1:33:12](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5592s) And I appreciate that, and, and that's a very good line of thinking. I'll take the revenue to the side because of increased fuel costs. I'll even take the stock price to the side. But the EBITDA still went up. So what happened was is we didn't get to share in that savings when the company blew out the profitability. Which, again, I'm proud of you for doing that, but I feel a lot of that fell on our constituents, our folks that are paying those bills at a tough time. Again, that's where the math just doesn't math out. That's the problem. And again, I, I, I give you credit. [1:33:43](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5623s) I think you guys are heading in the right direction, but this is a few years too late, and I think why we're having these conversations today. [1:33:50](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5630s) Uh, understood. And love to continue the conversation and talk more about that with you. [1:33:55](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5635s) Thank you. [1:33:56](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5636s) What's the total revenue Georgia Power made off of power bills in Georgia this year? [1:34:01](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5641s) I don't- [1:34:01](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5641s) Residential, commercial, and mega plans. [1:34:03](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5643s) I don't have that number off the top of my head, Chairman. [1:34:07](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5647s) All right. Other committee members have questions? All right. Thank you, Dole. [1:34:11](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5651s) Thank you. [1:34:12](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5652s) Don't leave yet. [1:34:13](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5653s) Okay. [1:34:13](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5653s) We got two more folks, and we may have to call back, call you back. Um, Cara Bender. Am I pronouncing that right, Bender? [1:34:24](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5664s) With the Data Center Coalition. [1:34:28](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5668s) Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. Appreciate the opportunity to speak before you again on SB 34. Um, I'll keep my comments brief, um, because I know I've spoken before this committee a number of times, and I think the, um, what... We, we share a number of the concern- concerns that were raised by the PSC and Georgia Power already earlier today. Um, looking at, uh, the substitute 556, we share the concerns about Section B kind of usurping that regulatory authority and flexibility from the PSC and the ability to respond to a rapidly, um, evolving and changing industry, and again, as I've mentioned in previous comments, um, the newer technologies and other innovations that we haven't even been able to fathom today that may also be very energy intensive as well. [1:35:10](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5710s) Um, do appreciate that both of the committee substitutes that are before us today do, um, align this with what the P- PSC is doing in terms of applying to, um, large load customers above 100 megawatts. As I've shared before, we see th- this end use neutral approach as being aligned with sound rate-making principles, in addition to, again, acknowledging the potential evolution, uh, that large load customers, um, including data centers, but beyond, um, may have in terms of energy consumption moving forward. Um, with that being said, we do see, uh, substitute 584 as the preferable route, again, because that maintains the flexibility for the PSC t- in their regulatory authority to engage in rate making, um, in a stakeholder and evidence-based driven process, um, while still codifying and providing the protections that are already being, um, implemented by, uh, the PSC and through the utility contracts. [1:36:02](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5762s) For example, through Georgia Power, that has allowed for the rate, um, freezes that we're seeing now. So thank you again for your consideration, and happy to take questions. [1:36:12](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5772s) Thank you for being here, Cara. [1:36:13](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5773s) Thank you. [1:36:14](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5774s) Thank you for being with us. All right, uh, Bobby Baker. Believe you're the last person signed up. [1:36:29](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5789s) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, senators, for, uh, allowing me this time. I'm here today in support of, uh, Senator Hefstetler- Hufstetler's, uh, version of the bill, and it's, uh, it's, it's been improved since last year. The amended bill gives Georgia consumers the protection that only the Georgia legislature can provide to consumers and ratepayers compared to an administrative agency. The laws of Georg- of the Georgia Legislature can be changed, but not in 30 days or less, as can be done by an administrative agency as the Public Service Commission. [1:37:07](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5827s) As, uh, reported in Southern Company's, uh, February 20th, 2025 10-K report, Georgia Power Company is planning to spend $34 billion over the next five years to add over 14 gigawatts of new generation capacity to serve new data center customers. That is the, uh, same cost as Vogtle Units 3 and 4. That's, that's an incredible amount of investment and will almost double the company's current generation capacity of 16 gigawatts. [1:37:43](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5863s) This is not normal growth for any utility company, but it is a once in a lifetime event that started a couple years ago by the new data center industry. There have been, there's been some criticism of Senate Bill 34 that it will tie the hands of the Public Service Commission to regulate Georgia Power Company. It won't. In fact, Senate Bill 34 complements and is compatible with the PSC's data center rule or tariff created April 4th of 2025. [1:38:15](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5895s) Senate Bill 34 does not change any part of the current tariff, but it does provide clear policy guidance to the PSC regarding the allocation of costs caused by the new data center industry. One of the most fundamental principles of utility regulation is cost causer pays. Cost causer pays. We have a surplus of generation capacity today if you don't add the new data center demand. [1:38:49](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5929s) Current Georgia Power customers don't need 14 gigawatts of new generation in the next five years. The data center boom created this historic demand for new electric generation, and they should pay for it. That is what Senate Bill 34 guarantees. Current ratepayers should not underwrite this $34 billion investment that could undermine the reliability and affordability of Georgia's electric system. Neither the EMCs nor the MEAG cities are making huge investments in new generation to serve data centers. [1:39:24](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=5964s) Only Georgia Power. Anybody with any business sense understands the data center boom could turn out to be a bust or not meet the inflated expectations as advertised. And who pays for this stranded investment when the data center industry doesn't need 14 gigawatts of new generation? Southern Company shareholders won't, but Georgia Power customers will. Southern Company, the approximately 2.5 million residential and 330,000 commercial customers who get their service from base rates will pay for this. [1:40:07](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6007s) Don't forget the 330,000 businesses that are on base rates that are also gonna be seeing their rates affected. I ask that you support Senate Bill 34. It will not tie the hands of the regulators, but will provide stronger protection to Georgia ratepayers from subsidizing the $34 billion cost to develop the generation and infrastructure being built in Georgia for the new data center industry. Thank you very much, and I'll take any questions if you have any. [1:40:37](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6037s) Any questions? All right. Thank you very much. [1:40:41](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6041s) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, senators. [1:40:44](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6044s) Aaron, can I get you back up for one second? [1:40:50](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6050s) Yes, sir. [1:40:53](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6053s) How many megawatts of power does it take? I mean, how, how many can be produced by one of these $2.5 billion plants? [1:41:04](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6064s) Uh, a natural gas combined cycle right now, a new one's around 750 megawatts. [1:41:09](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6069s) Okay. And, and what does one of these big data centers need on a annual basis? [1:41:15](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6075s) Oh, it, it ranges. We have customers from 100 megawatts to a, a 1,000 megawatts and anywhere in between. [1:41:28](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6088s) So I'm just trying to think how many data centers can be serviced by one- [1:41:32](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6092s) Hm [1:41:32](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6092s) ... new plant's what I'm trying to get to. [1:41:34](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6094s) Uh- [1:41:34](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6094s) I'm, I'm not as good at math as Senator Albers. [1:41:37](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6097s) Uh, so that, that's a hard question to answer. So we, we don't plan our system to serve every customer expecting them to be at peak load all at the same time. [1:41:48](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6108s) Right. [1:41:48](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6108s) Everybody uses different amounts, and so that allows us to strike a balance of an efficiently planned system. While some customers might peg the needle in, in peak demand, other customers are using less, and it's complex modeling that, that our engineers do to determine that right amount, um, in, in coordination with Mr. Burns. [1:42:09](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6129s) Well, at the end of the day, though, if you produce 750 megawatts in a plant and a user uses 100 of them, over the year, that kind of balances out. You could put about seven new data centers per plant, right? [1:42:26](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6146s) If you wanted to do simple math, that, that would work. [1:42:28](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6148s) There you go. [1:42:29](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6149s) We, we also take, uh, what we call reserve margin and build above the expected load amount, and so that's 26% in the winter- [1:42:37](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6157s) Right [1:42:37](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6157s) ... um, to cover for extreme weather or equipment failures, maintenance outages, and that sort of stuff. So the system has ability to remain reliable during those instances. [1:42:48](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6168s) So if, if these people are coming to you now and they're trying to negotiate a contract, can't, you, you can't really promise them the power right yet. It's gonna take you a couple years to build out. The plant form or is, I guess, it gonna take them that long to build a data center too? Or how's this gonna work? [1:43:04](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6184s) Uh, some, some of both. Uh, we have existing resources on the system, and these customers can't turn everything on. Uh, just like any business, you build and then you, um, bring portions of that big data center online, just like an industrial customer brings portions of their lines, manufacturing lines online. And so we would ramp a customer up over that period of time. The forecast that we do for needed generation plans for that, for all of our existing customers, for routine community growth, new grocery stores, new businesses, and the specifics for large customers baked into that forecast. [1:43:41](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6221s) And so there's generators that we just discussed about us building, um, that will come online in 2030, some of them. Um, they are to meet the peak demand expected in that year. [1:43:54](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6234s) Mr. Chairman, can I check your math on that one? [1:43:56](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6236s) Yeah. [1:43:57](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6237s) Do you mind? [1:43:58](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6238s) Go right ahead. [1:43:59](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6239s) Thank you. [1:44:00](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6240s) Yeah, I'm public school. [1:44:01](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6241s) I thought I heard what you said. [1:44:01](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6241s) Making central right. [1:44:02](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6242s) Sorry. [1:44:02](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6242s) Lucas. [1:44:03](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6243s) I, I thought I heard what you said. [1:44:05](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6245s) Uh, right. There I go. [1:44:07](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6247s) That you said that the new, um, plants you're gonna build will generate 750 megawatts. Was that right? [1:44:14](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6254s) A new- [1:44:15](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6255s) New- [1:44:15](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6255s) ... natural gas combined cycle, yes, sir. [1:44:17](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6257s) Okay. And then you said that a data center, depending on the size, obviously, they're, they come in all sizes and shapes- [1:44:22](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6262s) Sure [1:44:22](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6262s) ... was somewhere between 200 and 1,000. [1:44:26](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6266s) Uh, it could be, it could be less than 100, but 100 declared a large load. [1:44:30](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6270s) Okay. [1:44:30](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6270s) 100 and 1,000 or and some even higher. [1:44:33](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6273s) One gig. [1:44:34](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6274s) So even if we split the baby and we said it's 500, that means one is going to basically hand- handle one to one and a half data centers then, not seven. [1:44:45](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6285s) So- [1:44:45](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6285s) Okay [1:44:45](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6285s) ... simple- [1:44:46](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6286s) Yeah [1:44:47](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6287s) ... simple math, in that example, yes. But the reality of how the system serves our customers does not work out that way. Uh, one megawatt is not equal to, to one megawatt because we have a system that serves all customers. All customers behave differently all the time, just like each of us at home. There are some people right now using their heat. We're not. And so our demand in our homes is less than the people that are home. And so our system plans for that and accounts for that in how we plan and operate it. [1:45:19](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6319s) Maybe that didn't help. [1:45:19](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6319s) Complex question. [1:45:20](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6320s) I don't know. Not sure if that helped us or didn't help us. Uh, you know, based on that, we're trying to... I think what the chairman's trying to come out with is, is based on a new plant, which is great, we're investing, we need more generation, what does that actually do for us? Uh, you know, data centers, uh, are not like a factory that runs from 8:00 to 5:00 and shuts down at the end of the night. You know, servers- [1:45:39](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6339s) Right [1:45:39](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6339s) ... when they're on, are running. Uh, and they're running all day and all night, as well as the HVAC or whatever's happening. [1:45:44](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6344s) That's right. [1:45:44](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6344s) So I guess my question is, is what do we really think each one of those is going to provide as far as the input of new data centers as well as just growth in, in the state in general? [1:45:56](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6356s) Let, let me, let me try to answer it a different way. So we expect load growth from, from, uh, now until 2031 to be 8,400 megawatts. That's new load coming onto the system. That's data centers. That's, uh, small data centers. That's new industry. That's, um, drugstores. That's us as residential customers. That's everybody. 8,400 megawatts. To serve that 8,400 megawatts by 2031, we will install 9,985 megawatts of new generation capacity to be online by 2031. [1:46:36](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6396s) The timing of when those generators come in depends on the timing of the expected load growth between now and then. [1:46:43](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6403s) Okay. Thank you. That's better. [1:46:45](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6405s) Sure. [1:46:46](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6406s) Senator Ginn, you wanted to give me a little clarification there. I was just gonna try to help both of y'all out. Since they, uh- If you, if you think about, say they, uh... Let's say this is a, a pool here in the middle of our little, uh, area, and you got pumps that are pumping into that pool. Say they, uh, each of those generating facilities is a pump that's pushing into the integrated transmission system. Well, the fluctuation of what's coming out varies up and down all during the day. Said, "What we gotta make sure is the pool doesn't run out." The, uh, so what's gonna happen here with your, oh, 750 megawatt, yeah, that, that 1,000-megawatt load, maybe 1,000-megawatt connected load, but he may be running at 500 megawatts. [1:47:28](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6448s) So that's where you get that differential in what's going on there. But y- what you've gotta do is you gotta make sure that you gotta, on the worst of days, that grandma doesn't go without lights, and that's where, to me, the, uh... If you have any other questions, Lucas is an expert on electricity. Said they, uh, he can help you with that. [1:47:46](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6466s) It's all about the money. [1:47:49](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6469s) Uh. So 'cause- Gooch got a lot of holes in it. Every one of them outlets along the wall, you got a hole So what I'm thinking is you got these trillion-dollar companies. They're building, building $10 billion data centers, and why wouldn't they be willing to pay you 500 million towards the cost of one of these plants or a, a billion? You know, it'd be 10% of their cost and pay it up front. It'd save you guys money too, 'cause you wouldn't have to pay interest on it and recoup it over 20 years. [1:48:18](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6498s) Um, that, that's effectively what we're doing through these minimum bills. [1:48:23](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6503s) Minimum bills are paid monthly though. [1:48:25](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6505s) That's right. [1:48:25](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6505s) Like, when they have to pay for the new transmission lines, they pay you that up front. [1:48:29](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6509s) They pay it up front before it goes in service. [1:48:31](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6511s) They pay the cost of it. [1:48:31](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6511s) Yes, sir. [1:48:31](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6511s) And what I'm wondering is why couldn't they pay a cost of the installation or build-out of the new plant that, but for their being your customer, we would never have to even build. [1:48:41](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6521s) Yeah. That, I mean, that is another way to do it, Senator. We'd have to think about what that- [1:48:45](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6525s) Is that permissible under the current law? [1:48:47](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6527s) Uh, we'd have to work with the commission Um, to determine if the rate structure, uh, would accommodate that, or a new rate, um, would be needed likely, uh, to accommodate that, and what the impacts of that would be [1:48:59](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6539s) Would we need to put that in this bill to give you that flexibility? [1:49:03](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6543s) No, sir [1:49:03](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6543s) So subject- that, you could do that without us? [1:49:05](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6545s) That- that's, that's speaking to that rate-making potential- [1:49:09](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6549s) Got it [1:49:09](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6549s) ... that, you know, j- should we determine that's necessary, or the commission determine that's necessary, they can ask us to design- [1:49:16](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6556s) Right [1:49:16](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6556s) ... you know- [1:49:17](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6557s) Okay [1:49:17](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6557s) ... different rates. [1:49:17](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6557s) One sec. All right. Thank you. [1:49:20](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6560s) Yes, sir. [1:49:21](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6561s) I think we have heard all we can handle on this. We have two substitutes before us. The Hufstetler bill is 56-0566S. Uh, and the, I'm gonna call it the Summers bill, is 5505846, 6 bill. [1:49:43](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6583s) Sure. [1:49:44](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6584s) I- [1:49:44](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6584s) Can I, can I close on it or- [1:49:46](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6586s) Uh, yeah, give us a quick close, and then I'm gonna- [1:49:47](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6587s) All right. I, I wanna say- [1:49:48](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6588s) ... move into a chance [1:49:49](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6589s) ... first, I appreciate Chairman Shaw, the job he's had to do, the perfect storm he's talked about. The, uh, you know, they started working on this over a year ago, and I did, too. I gave them language in 2024. I think we were both working on it. Um, I do, uh, have to quick comment, the, uh, he, he said that, uh, the rate increases for fuel weren't increases, and if I agree with him on that, then the rate decrease for fuel this year, it didn't decrease either, that, uh, we're actually just looking at a increase. But I won't get off on that too much. [1:50:20](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6620s) You know, I'm, I feel like, um, I'm not trying to make it complex. I'm giving them fle- flexibility. I'm not hamstringing them. I'm not prohibiting anything that they wanna do. And, you know, that Section C that everybody wanted me to add, it gets very specific. I wasn't trying to get specific, I was just trying to say just make sure you don't put the cost on the customers if the, if there's a bubble, if these bonds don't hold up, whatever, just don't put the cost on the residential and small businesses. Your Senate research I talked about maybe before you got here, but I think it's really clear. [1:50:54](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6654s) It says one bill prohibits the cost being put on the ratepayers, and the other bill doesn't in your Senate summary. And so I would hope that the committee would do the one that, that protects our, our customers. I think we saw it in the election, those that were in the special election that we just had, they said just about every household brought up they wanted this. And, uh, our, our people are wanting some protection. I don't wanna set their rates. I don't even wanna tell them what 15 years and all that do. I just want a simple thing that mine up there. [1:51:24](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6684s) It does not prohibit any- anything for them from lowering the rates for consumers. Nothing in this bill does that. It just simply says the cost of data centers, you can't put it on the residential and small businesses. Um, that, that's all it does. [1:51:38](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6698s) Understood. [1:51:38](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6698s) It's that simple. [1:51:42](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6702s) What's the will of the committee? I see you're light on, Mr. Pro Tem. Do you have a motion? [1:51:46](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6706s) Yes, sir. I'd, I'd like to make a motion, uh, do pass Senate Bill 34 LC560584S to protect residential and retail electricity customers from costs associated with serving new large load customers. [1:52:07](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6727s) Second. [1:52:08](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6728s) There's a second by Senator Sims. Well, we gotta do one at a time. You wanna amend, we all have a chance. [1:52:15](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6735s) Yes. [1:52:15](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6735s) All right. Uh, Senator Albers, you're recognized to amend this motion. [1:52:19](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6739s) I'd like to amend, uh, Pro Tem's motion, uh, to substitute that with LC560566S. [1:52:27](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6747s) Is there a second for that? [1:52:28](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6748s) 0566. [1:52:31](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6751s) This is not your day for seconds. We're, we're gonna vote on the- [1:52:33](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6753s) Oh, oh, second [1:52:34](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6754s) ... first one then. [1:52:35](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6755s) You got second. [1:52:35](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6755s) Who's that? Tony? Okay. [1:52:37](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6757s) There's 0566. [1:52:39](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6759s) Senator Anderson seconds. [1:52:40](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6760s) I'm confident. [1:52:41](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6761s) All right, we will vote on the amendment first then. Any discussion on, I'm gonna call it the Albers amendment? It essentially reverts us back to the Hufstetler bill, which is 560566S. Any discussion at all? Anybody in favor of that motion, raise your hand, please. [1:53:04](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6784s) This is the, voting for our amendment. [1:53:07](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6787s) No. [1:53:07](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6787s) Well, we're treating it as one. [1:53:08](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6788s) The amendment is swapping it out, going back to it. Yeah. [1:53:11](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6791s) All right, there's two votes for yes. Any votes opposed? [1:53:13](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6793s) Whoa, wait. Wait, wait, wait. What are we doing? [1:53:16](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6796s) I didn't have a vote. [1:53:17](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6797s) What are we doing? [1:53:18](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6798s) There is an amendment to the motion. The motion on the floor, to simplify it, is to adopt the Summers substitute. Senator Albers has introduced an amendment to change that to the Hufstetler- [1:53:34](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6814s) Yeah, yeah [1:53:34](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6814s) ... substitute, and it's been seconded by Senator Anderson. No discussion, so we're voting on it, and we've had two votes that voted yes. Any opposed? [1:53:45](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6825s) Wait, I didn't- [1:53:47](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6827s) Would you like to vote? [1:53:48](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6828s) I would like... Can you start the vote over? [1:53:50](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6830s) Is that- [1:53:50](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6830s) All right. We'll do that. Uh, we're voting on the Albers amendment, which is the original Hufstetler. All in favor, raise your hand. [1:53:59](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6839s) The original bill. [1:54:00](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6840s) The original bill. All right, we got three this time. [1:54:04](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6844s) Four. I got four. [1:54:05](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6845s) Okay, you got four. All opposed, raise your hand. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine opposed. That amendment fails, so back to your original motion, Mr. Pro Tem. All in favor, raise your hand. [1:54:28](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6868s) What do you want, Chuck? [1:54:30](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6870s) N- no, no, no. This is, this is Carden Summers substitute. All right, I got- [1:54:35](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6875s) Summers [1:54:36](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6876s) ... this is. [1:54:37](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6877s) Summers. [1:54:37](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6877s) This is correct. [1:54:38](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6878s) No, it's still Summers. [1:54:39](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6879s) We're gonna call it the Summers substitute 'cause it makes everybody understand is I got one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine yes votes there. All opposed? One, two- [1:54:50](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6890s) Oh, two opposed [1:54:51](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6891s) ... three opposed. All right. That bill passes. Uh, it will go on to Rules Committee for consideration. That is gonna conclude our business for today. Let me alert the caucus of the, uh- [1:55:04](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6904s) We did. I told them. I told them all about it. [1:55:07](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6907s) All right. Everybody be aware of the, uh, dinner. We will be meeting Thursday afternoon, 3:00, and we'll be dealing- [1:55:16](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6916s) At church [1:55:18](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6918s) ... with the bill on CON revocation, essentially, for cancer care. Thank you. We are adjourned. [1:55:24](https://vimeo.com/1167875404#t=6924s) When do we meet, buddy?