Senate Judiciary Committee, February 25, 2026

Transcript

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1. 0:21:38

   If we can please come to order. I don't have a gavel. Cowsert, I should've gotten a gavel, shouldn't I? Yeah. Do you use a gavel? Every now and then. Yeah. They get rowdy sometimes- You did ... down in Atlanta. Well- This will be a good gavel right here. I kept it as a keepsake. I don't usually need it. Sometimes I do.

2. 0:21:59

   Sometimes you need a gavel.

3. 0:22:00

   Like now. Let's see everybody come to order quickly. Welcome to the Senate Judiciary Committee. We are approaching the midnight hour. Eh, the noon hour, right? The halfway through for session with the crossover day next week. I don't know if I said that right, Bill. I don't know. It's close. Close enough. We got a long way. We got a long... The noon hour. We got a ways. But we are, um, gonna have, of course, this hearing this evening with these three bills, and we'll be back in committee tomorrow at 2:00, hopefully, or whenever they reset us based on how long we're in session.

4. 0:22:34

   And then Monday will be our final hearing before, um, we start taking up House bills. And so we have three bills on the agenda this evening. Before we start, we have at least one, if not two, new members of Judiciary Committee. First, um, Chairman Tillery, are you new to the committee? I haven't seen you all session.

5. 0:22:51

   I, yes, Mr. Chair. Thank you for allowing me to join.

6. 0:22:53

   Okay, your mic's not on. Go ahead.

7. 0:22:55

   So thank you for allowing me to join. It's an honor to be back with you.

8. 0:22:57

   Yeah, good to have you back. And so I don't know where you've been all session, but g- glad you showed up tonight. And then I think, um, Senator McNeel, welcome.

9. 0:23:06

   Thank you. Pleasure to be here.

10. 0:23:08

    Would you like to introduce yourself to the committee and the thousands watching around the world?

11. 0:23:11

    Yes, I am Steven McNeel from the 18th District of Georgia.

12. 0:23:15

    That's enough. Hey, will you open us up in a word of prayer this evening?

13. 0:23:22

    Yes.

14. 0:23:22

    If you'll say, "Please bow with us," and everybody will bow.

15. 0:23:26

    Dear Heavenly Father, we ask you watch over this, uh, committee and give us guidance, and may your light shine on to lead us to the truth of what matters most to hard-working Georgians. And, uh, God bless America. Thank you.

16. 0:23:39

    Thank you. I don't think you'll have a chance to get me back, not yet at least. I didn't like the way you looked at me, though.

17. 0:23:45

    Best chair from the 18th District ever.

18. 0:23:49

    Oh, that wasn't very nice. That w- your mic was not on. All right, now we're gonna get serious. Chairman Watson.

19. 0:24:02

    A couple housekeeping things. There's sign-up sheets down here for these bills with the exception of Senate Bill 406 because Senate Bill 406 was already heard in subcommittee. And because we're trying to manage our time to get these bills moving, we're not going to take public testimony on that bill again, though it is the same bill that was presented in subcommittee that's back tonight. So if you wanna be heard on Senate Bill 552 or Senate Bill 542, please come sign up down front. And we will collect those. Nobody else is getting up, so I think we have, um, everybody signed up that wants to speak.

20. 0:24:36

    So we will start with Senate bill... Hey, JJ, do you mind getting the sign-up sheets for us? Thank you. We'll start with Senate Bill 552. Chairman Watson, we are working off of LC492643. Is that what you have?

21. 0:24:51

    That is what I have.

22. 0:24:52

    Thank you.

23. 0:24:52

    Yes, sir.

24. 0:24:53

    All right, the floor is yours.

25. 0:24:56

    Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Appreciate, uh, uh, you having us here first. Uh, so Senate Bill 552 is the True Prate- Patriotism and Universal Student Access Act, inspired by Charlie Kirk's brave efforts to bring both the word of God and the truth of conservative values to the school campuses across America through open discussion and debate in public forums. In the spirit and memory of Charlie's work, the TPUSA Act in Georgia would ensure that students' First Amendment rights to organize, gather, and speak are protected regardless of their religious, political, or social viewpoints or those of school administrators.

26. 0:25:35

    We will be the first state in the union to codify into state law, uh, with, uh, this act. The bill makes it clear that public school students, not private schools, in Georgia must be permitted to engage in political activities and expression before, during, and after the school day in the same manner and to the same extent that students may engage in non-political activities and expression. Public school students may organize partisan or nonpartisan political activities and groups before, during, and after school to the same extent that students are permitted to organize other non-curricular or extra-curricular student activities and groups during non-instructional time.

27. 0:26:18

    Public schools that provide a limited open forum are barred from denying equal access or a fair opportunity or discriminating against students who wish to conduct a meeting within the forum on the basis of the group's political, philosophical, ideological, or other content of the speech made at such meetings. Partisan and nonpartisan political groups will be given the same access and opportunities to announce and advertise meetings and use school facilities as other groups, and cannot be discriminated against on the basis of the political content of their expressions.

28. 0:26:53

    Public school students are guaranteed the right to wear clothing, accessories, and jewelry that display political messages and symbols. Let me take you through the bill itself. Uh, section one names it, the True Patriotism and Universal Student Access Act. Uh, section two d- uh, defines, uh, the terms, uh, in this, uh, bill. Uh, and then the... And then also, uh, outlines what these, uh, activities are. And I, I, I said them in more plain language there, but it discusses, uh, students, uh, publicly, uh, enrolled in public schools.

29. 0:27:32

    It shall be unlawful any public school- Uh, to deny equal access or fair opportunity. Uh, and, uh, it goes on to outline the things, uh, that we do. The s- public school shall be deemed to offer a fair opportunity to students enrolled in such school who wish to conduct a meeting within its limited open forum, and such school uniformly provides that. The meeting's voluntarily student-initiated. There's no sponsorship of meetings. The meeting does not materially or substantially interfere with the orderly conduct of educational activities and discipline within the school, and the meeting does not infringe on the rights of other students.

30. 0:28:07

    Individuals not affiliated with the school may not direct, conduct, control regularly attended activities. So it discusses partisan and nonpartisan, uh, political groups, uh, given access, uh, and it discusses the public school shall not only disclaim school sponsorship of these extracurricular student groups and related events in the manner that neither favors nor disfavors student groups that meet to engage in political activity. Uh, it does give the school, continue to give the school, uh, it, if you look down on section and, uh, line 79, nothing in this code section shall be construed to limit the authority of a public school or its employees or agents to maintain order and discipline on school premises to protect the well-being of students and staff and to assure that attendance of students, uh, at meetings is voluntarily, is voluntary.

31. 0:29:02

    Um, it also adds in there, uh, up in section, uh, pages six, line 69 through 78, uh, discusses, uh, uh, nothing shall be in this code section construed to authorize a state or any political subdivision thereof, and it outlines those. Um, it's pretty simple and straightforward. You're allowed to have political and/or religious organization and meetings as extracurricular activity, and it, uh, stresses the nondiscriminatory aspect related to that particular activity.

32. 0:29:36

    Uh, and, uh, with that, Mr. Chairman, I'm happy to answer questions. I don't think anyone signed up to, uh, testify, but I'm happy to entertain questions.

33. 0:29:45

    And no one signed up to speak on the bill. Uh, thank you for bringing this. I, I know for me, after Charlie Kirk, um, was killed last year, I was able to attend an event at Kennesaw State that celebrated, um, didn't celebrate any particular ideas, any partisanship. It celebrated the idea of freedom of expression, no matter what you believe in, peaceful assembly. And I left that night inspired by what I saw from college students. And honestly, um, they could be a great example for a lot of us.

34. 0:30:15

    And I love that your bill's gonna now make certain that, um, students in our, in our schools and our state, uh, before they get to college, have the opportunity to express themselves and learn from each other. It's what it's all about, and I think that that's what's missing oftentimes in our culture now, is people not listening to each other. And so I appreciate you bringing this bill and really doing it in honor of what we all learned from Charlie Kirk. Any questions from the committee?

35. 0:30:44

    All right, nobody signed to speak on the bill. What's the pleasure of the committee?

36. 0:30:47

    Motion to pass.

37. 0:30:49

    Motion to pass to Senator Still. A second from Senator Cowsert. Any discussion? All those in favor of the motion, please raise your hand. It is unanimous. Thank you, Chairman Watson.

38. 0:31:03

    Thank you, uh, Chairman. Appreciate, uh, appreciate the committee and appreciate, uh, your endorsement. Thank you.

39. 0:31:10

    Thank you. All right. Moving on to the next bill on the agenda, Senate Bill 542. Is Chairman Robertson here? Mr. Wipf, sorry, not chairman. Come on up.

40. 0:31:29

    We are working off of LC620406. Is that what you have?

41. 0:31:45

    Yes, sir, it is. Um, I think an amendment may have been dropped off at your office, uh, just correcting a few things there.

42. 0:31:53

    We have copies of it. I did not put it in the folders yet-

43. 0:31:55

    Well, it's-

44. 0:31:56

    ... 'cause I didn't know if you were gonna be pr- pr- proposing that amendment as the author. But would you like for us to pass that out?

45. 0:32:01

    Um, if you don't mind. Um, it, it got to me late, and I've been reading through it, trying to look for the, um, the shifts in line numbers. But, um, I think it just expounds on a few definitions.

46. 0:32:14

    Okay.

47. 0:32:14

    So-

48. 0:32:15

    We'll go ahead and pass that out.

49. 0:32:17

    Um, would you like me to go ahead and start, Mr. Chair?

50. 0:32:19

    Please.

51. 0:32:20

    Yes. It's a very simple piece of legislation, uh, friends and colleagues. Um, this was, um, a concern I've had for, for quite a while and, um, I was approached recently by, by three young ladies who have all been, um, victimized, um, by their relationship in a, um, in a religious association, organization, or church. And so what I've done here is I've taken, uh, title 16 and, um, to be exact, 16-6-5.1, and I've added in clergy.

52. 0:33:01

    What this does is, uh, something that, that I've experienced, uh, throughout my career, where a law enforcement officer who has authority over someone, um, uses that authority to, um- Enter into what they interpret as a consensual relationship that would normally would not happen had it not been for the authority that officer had over that person. Uh, we've seen it many, many times in our schools where teachers, even though the student may be 18, adult age, the teacher will enter into an ina- inappropriate relationship with the student.

53. 0:33:38

    And, um, when the teacher's arrested, they can no longer use consent as a defense because they had a certain amount of, if you will, power, control over that individual. So therefore, the courts have ruled that that individual really did not have the option of consent in those situations. And what we've experienced for many, many years here in, uh, the State of Georgia is we have seen members of the clergy exploit their power and authority over individuals in their churches, females by the vast, vast majority, and use their authority to manipulate these ladies into entering into relationships that they would not normally enter into.

54. 0:34:24

    And so what this does, this bill is very, very simple. On line, um, 18 through 23, it defines what a clergy member is. On line 38, it goes into, um, the pastoral counseling or spiritual authority relationship as to what that means. And as we move through, you see clergy member is added into there. Um, and then on lines, uh, line 85 and 86, we break out there in the subparagraph to talk about the subject of a clergy member's pastoral counseling or spiritual authority relationship as being one of the, uh, one of the relationships that the, uh, individual, the victim if you will, is, uh, contemporaneously entered into, which I know all the legal eagles on the committee understand that that means in conjunction with, at the same time.

55. 0:35:23

    Uh, a lot of times it kind of gets lost in the shuffle. But it's, it's, it's clear law. It's clean law. All we're doing is adding in another, um, profession, if you will, into the group that we already have who are, um, um, prohibited from entering into re- so sexual relationships with, uh, with people under their authority.

56. 0:35:49

    Can you address the proposed amendment as just some cleanup in here, or is there something you're trying to accomplish with the amendment?

57. 0:35:53

    Yes, sir. That's, the primary part of it is cleanup. Um, I think we looked at the, um... I think, let, let me double-check here.

58. 0:36:03

    Mr. Walker, did you work on the amendment?

59. 0:36:06

    Uh, no, I did not, Mr. Chairman, and I, I might suggest that we may just adopt the amendment in full-

60. 0:36:14

    That's-

61. 0:36:14

    ... to replace the underlying bill.

62. 0:36:16

    I think that would be the safer thing to do.

63. 0:36:17

    That was what I was gonna ask you-

64. 0:36:18

    I would-

65. 0:36:18

    ... Mr. Skinner

66. 0:36:20

    ... yeah

67. 0:36:20

    ... so we could work off the amendment, which is AM62-0046.

68. 0:36:24

    Exactly. Yes, sir.

69. 0:36:26

    Okay.

70. 0:36:26

    Exactly. Um, and I d- I do have a young lady with me who did sign up to speak, but she is, she is one of the ladies that brought it to me.

71. 0:36:35

    Mm-hmm.

72. 0:36:35

    And if the committee feels, I'm sure she is comfortable with explaining, uh, her, the impact that it had on her, um, and, and primarily on the manipulation of it as opposed to the actual relationship itself about how these ladies come into this assuming, and g- to give you an example, a young lady who may be going through a divorce and reaches out for counseling within her church. Um, and while appearing to be sympathetic and attempting to help the person through the, uh, spiritual conundrum of a marriage breaking up, uh, the, the ministers gain trust of these ladies and manipulate that trust into a, a distorted discipleship, uh, where by the time they turn around, they've entered into a sexual relationship with this predator and, uh, feel somewhat trapped because when they come out and try to defend themselves, a lot of times, um, the, the aggressor will say, "Well, it was consensual.

73. 0:37:33

    She never said no," and all these other things that I know the Chair and I have experienced on the criminal side.

74. 0:37:39

    Mm-hmm.

75. 0:37:39

    But in this particular situation, um, these ladies feel trapped. And right now in Georgia, there's really no avenue within the criminal justice system for them to receive any kind of justice.

76. 0:37:51

    Is it Ms. Haley Swenson? Is that, is that correct?

77. 0:37:54

    Yes, sir.

78. 0:37:54

    Do, would you like to share with the committee?

79. 0:37:56

    Yeah. Thank you.

80. 0:37:57

    Um, do you have a question for the author, Senator Cowsert?

81. 0:38:01

    I do.

82. 0:38:01

    Let's, let's do that first. You wanna, let's take questions for the author, and then we'll take public testimony. Senator Cowsert?

83. 0:38:05

    I'm a little concerned about your definition of clergy member, that it might be broader than you think. I think of a clergy member as being an ordained minister or a pastor or youth minister or something like that. And at line 22 it goes further than that. "Any person who provides or purports to provide spiritual guidance." And then it goes on on page 23, "Or religious instruction." Now, I teach a Sunday school class often, and I think you might have just captured me.

84. 0:38:37

    I'm not gonna sexually harass anybody or abuse anybody. But I, is, is that your intent, that just anybody in a religious context that is trying to instruct or lead or guide folks?

85. 0:38:48

    Well, I think, I think on line 42 you see a term that you and I see a lot, and that's in the first two words there, reasonable person. Um, when we talk about pastoral counseling, a spiritual authority relationship means a relationship in which a clergy member provides spiritual guidance, pastoral care, religious instruction, confession, mentoring, or emotional and spiritual support in circumstances where a reasonable person would view the clergy member as exercising influence, trust, or authority over another person's spiritual, emotional, or personal wellbeing. So to answer your question, um, Chairman Cowsert, yes, if you were a Sunday school teacher And you used that, your position as a, as a spiritual educator to manipulate a young lady within your Sunday school class based on scripture, based on your teaching or whatever, to manipulate her into having a non-consensual, is the way I'll term it, sexual relationship with you.

86. 0:39:41

    Yes, sir, I think this would impact you.

87. 0:39:44

    So you, you intend it to apply to any church members that are in any type of-

88. 0:39:48

    I, I-

89. 0:39:48

    ... leadership type role?

90. 0:39:49

    I intend for it to apply to anyone in a leadership position within a church, from the, uh, from the, um, chief pastor all the way down. There's a, there's a video flying around on Instagram right now of a young man, he's a kid teaching from the pulpit, and he points out that, um, people tell him he shouldn't be able to preach because he's not licensed. And he said he doesn't need a license, that Jesus Christ has given him the license, so he needs no license from men. So there are churches, non-traditional churches, that you and I may not be member, members of or may not have ever attended, where this happens.

91. 0:40:24

    And we can go to the extreme cases of the Branch Davidians in Waco, Texas, or we can come to the more, um, hidden examples that we all hear about in more traditional churches where pastors, leadership, spiritual leaders, and others in the church have manipulated females for years and years.

92. 0:40:42

    Can I ask one more please, Mr. Chairman?

93. 0:40:44

    Sure.

94. 0:40:44

    So I can see on pages six and seven it lays out the punishment for this offense. How does that differ from the punishment for somebody that is not in this type of either employer-employee relationship, but now clergy and I'll just call them parishioner-type relationship? What, how much steeper are these penalties than for other, you know, sexual battery-type cases?

95. 0:41:11

    They're, they're no, they're no more steeper. The, the, the punishment is already codified in law. I added the clergy member in there. This punishment is no more steeper than if I were a law enforcement officer and I used my authority to manipulate somebody that maybe I'd arrested for DUI or somebody that I had detained for some reason, um, or a teacher in a classroom. The penalties are exactly the same.

96. 0:41:33

    So but how are, how do they differ from somebody that's a next-door neighbor, that's not an employer, not in an agency relationship, not giving spiritual guidance?

97. 0:41:42

    Well, using the term sexual battery, I think they would fall directly in line. And, and, and, and I, and I think you and the other attorneys on the committee will correct me if I'm wrong, I believe sexual battery is a misdemeanor. It's, uh, the inappropriate touching of an individual through their clothes or what else, and I think the maximum sentence on that is, uh, 12 months on a misdemeanor here in Georgia for sexual battery. So I think it falls in line with that.

98. 0:42:10

    Okay.

99. 0:42:11

    But then again, I'm, I'm... Chairman, you understand if we're talking about the standalone charge of rape, uh, child molestation, other things like that, you know the punishments in many cases are much more extreme.

100. 0:42:22

     Thank you.

101. 0:42:22

     Yes, sir.

102. 0:42:26

     Other questions from the committee for the author? All right. Um, Ms. Swinson, if you'd like to share with the committee, the floor is yours.

103. 0:42:34

     Thank you. Chairman and members of the committee, my name is Haley Swinson, and I stand before you today not only as a survivor, but as a representative of other survivors all across the State of Georgia whose story is just like mine. Adult clergy sexual abuse is real. It does not begin with force. It begins with trust. A pastor, a mentor, a person with spiritual authority who's saying, "You can trust me.

104. 0:43:07

     This is God's will," all while violating you at the same time. Survivors are often seeking faith, guidance, belonging, or healing, but authority is used to groom, scripture is twisted to justify, isolation is normalized, and boundaries are slowly eroded, and all what feels confusing and violating is being told that this is obedience to God. This is not consent.

105. 0:43:39

     This is coercion through power. So when a clergy member uses spiritual m- spiritual authority to obtain sexual access, the power differential alone eliminates the possibility of free consent. So I, I'm going to read that one more time. When a clergy member uses spiritual authority to obtain sexual access, the power differential alone eliminates the possibility of free consent. 14 states have already recognized this reality in criminal law.

106. 0:44:13

     Georgia does not. Natural trauma responses such as freezing, shutting down, being confused, can be difficult to translate to a jury and can be interpreted as consensual, especially when it involves a power imbalance, manipulation, and spiritual abuse, factors that are often just as heinous as a physical force. In my scenario, with a vice president of a Christian institution, with over 300 emails from the perpetrator that align with my story, all to say this is not about my case.

107. 0:44:54

     This is a pattern we continue to encounter. And as my team, who's behind me, and I meet with survivors across our state, many of them complete strangers, we hear the same story. It's the same grooming. It's the same targeting. It's the same power imbalance. It's the same manipulation. It's the same, "This is God's will for your life." It's the same.

108. 0:45:20

     The same silence. This is not an isolated thing to just me. It is systematic. So after finding the courage to finally come forward on my behalf- I was left realizing there's actually no clear path to justice. This is why many survivors never report it. This is why many perpetrators continue to do what they do. This is why the law must change.

109. 0:45:51

     Silence protects systems, but the law is supposed to protect people. This bill does not attack faith or religious institutions. It establishes accountability when spiritual authority is used for exploitation. I want to express my deepest thanks, Senator Robertson and the co-sponsors of SB542 for their leadership, their courage, and their steadfast commitment to advancing this legislation.

110. 0:46:23

     Your willingness to stand up for this issue and move it forward has already made a meaningful difference. I respectfully urge you not only to continue your support, but to actively leverage your influence with your colleagues in the Senate, members of the House, with the governor's office to ensure that SB542 reaches the finish line this session. The need is urgent. The stakes are high, and any delay would be demoralizing for survivors who've already suffered so much.

111. 0:46:56

     So members of the Senate, this is about power and consent. It's about aligning Georgia with other national practices, and it's about ensuring that no future survivor is ever told that their violation is just God's will. And I urge you to pass this bill for survivors of the past, for those suffering in silence today, and for those who we still have time to protect.

112. 0:47:28

     Thank you.

113. 0:47:29

     Ms. Swinson, I... You thanked the sponsors for their courage. I thank you for your courage because we would not have bills like this without people like you being willing to share your story, and I can't imagine how hard it is to have to share your story. Uh, but unfortunately, sometimes it's necessary to pass meaningful legislation. So I thank you for being so brave and stepping up like you are doing this evening.

114. 0:47:53

     Cameron, can I say something? Uh, I just want to say you told me thank you, but the people behind me have been fighting this path, uh, for-

115. 0:48:02

     Yeah

116. 0:48:02

     ... a long time, and then we just happened to connect paths, so I just want to tell them thank you.

117. 0:48:07

     We thank them as well. You do have question from the committee. Chairman Tillery.

118. 0:48:11

     Uh, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think my question is actually for the senator. Thank... It's about the words. So I got... I'm reading through, and maybe it's just my brain's fried today. I see where you've got different penalties based on age. You're not meaning, meaning to limit this to minors though, are you?

119. 0:48:27

     No, sir.

120. 0:48:28

     I just want to... Okay.

121. 0:48:28

     We already have laws-

122. 0:48:29

     Can you just-

123. 0:48:29

     We have already have laws in place that protect minors. The people that are left out of this are the adults.

124. 0:48:34

     Okay.

125. 0:48:35

     I... But, but the intention of this legislation is to extend that protection that we accept every day for minors, to extend it out to these adult victims. As I was saying before, an 18-year-old in a classroom is protected by, by being sexually exploited by a teacher.

126. 0:48:49

     Will you show me where... Here's why, Senator.

127. 0:48:52

     I-

128. 0:48:52

     You know, I'm, I'm working with you here.

129. 0:48:53

     No, I-

130. 0:48:53

     I see where like on lines 159 through 65, it's if someone's under the age of 16. And if it's 66 to 70, it's if they're between 14 and 21. Help me. I'm just needing to see where we did what you think we did so that I can make sure we did it.

131. 0:49:09

     Well, of course, and, and look, I, I understand who I'm, I'm talking to and, and you understand, you know, th- th- those sections are already in law.

132. 0:49:19

     Right.

133. 0:49:19

     Yes, sir.

134. 0:49:20

     I-

135. 0:49:20

     So all we're doing is-

136. 0:49:21

     And maybe if he could tell me the, uh-

137. 0:49:23

     Yeah.

138. 0:49:23

     Okay. Yeah. I, I just need to know so I make sure I'm circling-

139. 0:49:26

     Right

140. 0:49:26

     ... the right thing and reading the right thing.

141. 0:49:28

     Right. It's-

142. 0:49:28

     I think it's line 95 on the amendment. Lines 95 through 99.

143. 0:49:34

     Let me go to the amendment. Okay. Sorry. Here we go.

144. 0:49:38

     95 to 99?

145. 0:49:39

     That's where it begins, and then it has the, uh-

146. 0:49:43

     Well, but I, I think if you look-

147. 0:49:45

     102 through 116, 116 and 117, paragraph eight.

148. 0:49:49

     I think if you look at starting at line 153-

149. 0:49:52

     Yeah

150. 0:49:52

     ... you, you see exceptions beginning in line 159 that enhance the penalty, penalties based on the age. And I'll let Mr. Walker weigh in, but I think the, what you're looking for is 153 through 158. I think you were looking at the exceptions to that.

151. 0:50:08

     Gotcha. The exceptions actually lower the penalties in the Romeo Juliet exceptions. Is that what you're trying to-

152. 0:50:14

     That's what I understand it.

153. 0:50:15

     That's, that's what I was, that's what I was trying to figure out.

154. 0:50:17

     And, and that's one thing, th- this law has, the, the exceptions and, and the others are, are... Th- this, this particular law is just packed with... And, and I know the Romeo and Juliet thing was a lot that y'all did when that passed. That was, that was a struggle, and I appreciate that.

155. 0:50:33

     And we have enhancements when there's situations like the foster child you see on line 171. So is that correct, Mr. Walker? Okay. It is, when we see these bills, for everybody watching, we see the existing law and then changes, and it's, you don't always get the full context. So that's, this committee's known for having long hearings and asking detailed questions for a reason. We're trying to make sure we get it right. Other questions from the committee? Um, Leader Hatchett.

156. 0:51:02

     This is directed towards the author, but I want you to hear it as well. F- first off, thank you for coming to testify. I think I had the honor of carrying a House bill a couple years ago dealing with grooming of a minor and hearing stories specifically in my district involving a college where women who were lost, for lack of a better term, seeking spiritual guidance, and they gain that trust, and they're experiencing something new with the-

157. 0:51:35

     I'd say the holy word. You know, they're di- diving into the Bible, and then those feelings are confused, and people do take advantage of it, and it's wrong. And I am just very glad that the sponsor brought this. Thank you for... I, I could tell that was hard, but it was powerful, and we hear you. And I'm, I'm just... Thank you, and thank you to the senator. This is a very important piece of legislation that I think is needed, and it's a shame we haven't done something sooner, so thank you.

158. 0:52:09

     Well, if I could respond briefly. And Senator Hatchett and I are not only peers in the Senate but good friends and seatmates. And I attended a, a... This past summer, I attended an opportunity, a trial, if you will, where women were being asked to speak in front of a, a convention of individuals that they had a charge against a pastor at a church here in Georgia. And first of all, I walked into the room, and I was shocked by the way I was welcomed because I was a man, and the room was full of about 65 or 70 men that were delegates for this church organization.

159. 0:52:43

     And when the women came in, there were no other women there because they were downstairs preparing the food for the lunch. Women were not allowed to stand in the front of the church. And someone you all know went to the front of the church to testify, which was very unusual for that church. And then when she picked up one of the men's Bibles and flipped to the scripture and started reading scripture, they were all taken aback that a female would stand in that church and read scripture in front of them. And, um, I just, witnessing that and that, and growing up in, as a, I was, I, I gave my life to Christ in the third grade, and growing up in church and, and seeing the roles of women and men in church, I was absolutely stunned at the archaic manner in which these females were treated and saw firsthand on, um, how women were looked at as lesser.

160. 0:53:36

     Uh, and it was, it was shocking to me, and it, it, it burned my heart. And, um, and I know how passionate you are about this stuff, and I appreciate your support. It means a lot. Thank you.

161. 0:53:50

     All right. No other questions at this time from the committee. Um, thank you. We have one other person signed to speak on the bill in favor of the bill, Mike Griffin from the Georgia Baptist Mission Board. You wanna come up? Come on up, Mike. Thank you for being here with us.

162. 0:54:10

     Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am Mike Griffin. I'm the public affairs representative here for the Georgia Baptist Mission Board. And, uh, me and Senator Cowsert go back a long ways. We both ran for office in '06. He won, I lost. I end up being a lobbyist, he ended up being a senator. Anyway-

163. 0:54:26

     He might've got the better end of the deal.

164. 0:54:27

     I was... Yeah. Somebody told me I make more money than he does. I don't think so. But anyway, um, I've been down here, you know, 19 years. This is my 19th year, my 13th year representing Georgia Baptist. And, uh, we fully support this legislation, uh, Senate Bill 542, and we appreciate and are thankful for Randy Robertson, uh, for his initiating this legislation. And, um, I run this legislation by, uh, three attorneys that I'm friends with and to, to get their analysis on this, 'cause I've, I've been down here a while, and I know that just because something says something don't always mean that's what it is.

165. 0:55:12

     So we wanted to make sure that this was good piece of legislation. And, um, I work directly out of the executive director's office, uh, Thomas Hammond, and he approved me to speak in favor of this today. And, uh, one of the attorneys that I work with very closely is, uh, uh, attorney, uh, Greg Love with Ministry Safe out of Texas, and Georgia Baptists are partners with them in working on child sex abuse prevention. And, uh, he, he was in favor of this and said, "Mike, this is good.

166. 0:55:44

     It's very specific. It's not too broad. It's right with what, what needs to be done." Um, I have taught 18 classes on, on church prevention of child sex abuse, uh, in the last three years across this state. And, um, uh, in my early years here with Georgia Baptists, we were the only denomination that supported the 2015 Hidden Predator Act, and I sat through hours of testimony.

167. 0:56:17

     And, um, I, I appreciate Haley and, uh, uh, what she said here, 'cause we need to be reminded of this, 'cause I sat through those hearings. Uh, and one day I just got up and walked out because I couldn't take anymore because of how drastic and devastating the sex abuse is that's going on across our nation, including even in our churches. And then we also supported the 2018 Hidden Predator Act, which actually even included civil suits against churches.

168. 0:56:47

     And we were the only denomination. It never did pass. You may remember that. But we did stand out for that. So Georgia Baptists have been in this area for a long time. And, um, I know that, uh, my primary area has to do with child protection policy, and while my main area is on dealing with sex abuse related to minors, we're also opposed to any sex abuse related to adults as well. Uh, we do believe that this legislation is needed in order to educate those in our churches and institutions regarding the responsibility of maintaining protection over both minors and adults related to sex abuse.

169. 0:57:27

     Uh, this bill, I believe, can be used as an educational tool. I mean, I remember here Albert Mohler talking, you know, Dr. Mohler talking about how, you know, many times laws can become education, 'cause people real- well, why is that? Well, this is what it means. And I think this can end up being a, a education tool to help me in trying to educate pastors and churches about proper policy and proper responsibility, and I think it reminds people of the responsibility we have to protect others.

170. 0:57:58

     And accountability and criminal charges are needed to be a part of our laws regarding all sex abuse. And so Georgia Baptists support this legislation, and, uh, we would appreciate, uh, your support. And also, in addition, me being down here 19 years, 12 of those I was still a full-time pastor. And I pastored in the state 35 and a half years. And, um, so I, I pastored, and I've, I've heard the... You know, I've been there, done that by way of knowing what goes on in the church and the situations.

171. 0:58:33

     And so, um, I, I thank you, uh, again for the opportunity to testify and encourage your support.

172. 0:58:40

     And thank you, Mike. I appreciate you stepping up and appreciate the Georgia Baptists stepping up consistently on issues like this over the years. Any questions for Mr. Griffin?

173. 0:58:49

     Yeah.

174. 0:58:50

     All right. Do you have a question? Senator Rhett.

175. 0:58:53

     This is the first time we've met together and hadn't talked about having a dr- people having a drink.

176. 0:59:01

     Well, amen. See ya. Different, different issue.

177. 0:59:08

     That's a proper time I'm ready to make a motion.

178. 0:59:11

     Any other questions to the committee? Thank you.

179. 0:59:12

     Thank you.

180. 0:59:13

     Let's do that. And sir, do you want to make a motion? W- uh, make sure you make a motion based on AM620046. Is that your motion to pass?

181. 0:59:20

     Yes, sir.

182. 0:59:21

     All right. Do we have a second?

183. 0:59:23

     Second.

184. 0:59:23

     So a motion from Senator Rhett, a second from Leader Hatchett. Any discussion? All those in favor of the motion, please ra- But hold on. We do have discussion. The most important person in the room, Legislative Counsel.

185. 0:59:36

     I, I just want to make sh- clear we, what we're doing is we are still amending LC620406 with the substance of AM620046.

186. 0:59:46

     So we passed it by committee substitute, and this is a substitute?

187. 0:59:49

     Correct.

188. 0:59:49

     Okay.

189. 0:59:50

     And it would be replacing lines seven through 187 of the underlying bill with lines eight through 186 of the amendment.

190. 0:59:59

     All right. Does everyone understand the motion to pass by committee substitute that's been seconded? All right. All those in favor of the motion, please raise your hand. It is unanimous. Thank you. Thank y'all.

191. 1:00:17

     On to Senate rules.

192. 1:00:26

     Got it.

193. 1:00:28

     Okay. All right. Last up-

194. 1:00:33

     I don't want to go. And he didn't think we'd go too.

195. 1:00:37

     It's...

196. 1:00:47

     Welcome back, Senator Brass. Senate Bill 406, um, we're working off the substitute that we heard in subcommittee, I guess now almost two weeks ago, if I remember right, in the Hatchett Subcommittee where we heard testimony on this bill. Um, working off of LC443423S. Is that what you have?

197. 1:01:06

     That's correct, Mr. Chair.

198. 1:01:07

     And so you have not made any changes from the subcommittee to the bill. Is that right?

199. 1:01:13

     That is correct, Mr. Chair.

200. 1:01:14

     Is there anything else you want to share with the committee?

201. 1:01:18

     Well, I'll just add, you know, number one, I want to thank Senator James, um-

202. 1:01:23

     Let's... Can we have Senator James come up and join you?

203. 1:01:24

     Yeah, absolutely.

204. 1:01:25

     Apologize. Come on up, Senator James.

205. 1:01:32

     Come on, girl.

206. 1:01:33

     Senator.

207. 1:01:34

     Can you drive? Can I-

208. 1:01:34

     You on... Where you gonna live?

209. 1:01:36

     I'm gonna... Oh.

210. 1:01:37

     Yeah, back it in here. Back it up there.

211. 1:01:44

     Can I just... Can... I told them I-

212. 1:01:50

     All right. Y'all go ahead.

213. 1:01:51

     Well, first I want to thank Senator James. Um, you know, this journey for her started long before I'd, for me. Um, you know, I, she started having study committees and subcommittee hearings around O- HOAs-

214. 1:02:06

     Mm-hmm

215. 1:02:06

     ... probably, what, four years ago. And about two years ago, um, she referred some, some of my constituents to me that had come to some of her meetings, and I went to meet with these constituents. And, uh, we met at about 7:00 on a Friday evening. And to be honest, I was expecting, you know, three or four people to show up, and we had probably closer to 30 to 35. And every one of them had a separate story, uh, a different story of, of, of how they were being wronged.

216. 1:02:39

     And so it opened up my ears and, and so I, I moved forward and started having some subcommittee hearings out of, out of rules, uh, to act as a study committee looking at it. And we had people coming from really all over the state with, with just horror stories. And so as we, as we peeled back this onion and we, every layer, it just seemed we found more and more issues. And so really, some of the biggest issues I found was just, um, number one is the accountability, uh, of, of a, of an association, uh, is, is lacking.

217. 1:03:21

     And the reason is, is because if someone's been wronged by their association, their first line of defense is court. And when going to court, if you can afford a l- a lawyer, which many cannot, um, but if you could, you can't even hardly find one that would take the case. And to me, that's, it's hard to find justice If, if you can't find someone to represent you.

218. 1:03:53

     And so, um, the other, other issue we found is, is in many cases, there's just a total lack of transparency. Um, you know, some of my constituents were having issues finding their bylaws, having issues getting the financials, all that. And so, um, so we set out to find a bill that, that remedied all this. Is it a perfect bill? No. Absolutely not. And I'm open to suggestions by this committee.

219. 1:04:24

     Um, but the four main parts of the bill is around the accountability and transparency piece is, um, we're gonna make every HOA, every POA, every COA register with the Secretary of State's office. And in that registration, they will have, they will register their financials every year, they will register their bylaws and, um, and their, their officers. And to me, that is, that is where the accountability starts, and that is where the transparency starts.

220. 1:04:58

     If someone can't get access from their, their association, uh, well, that will... It'll be filed with the Secretary of State, so would be, they could file, you know, freedom of information or open records, whatever. They will be able to get their hands on, on those documents. Um, the second piece, I wanted to make sure we had, uh, we had some form of an administrative hearing. Uh, someone, some- somewhere that they could go without an attorney, uh, to where they didn't have to go to court.

221. 1:05:34

     And so, and this was the piece I've struggled with the most. Uh, the idea we came up with was to form a board. I'm not, I'm not big on forming new boards, but, um, but that was about all we could come up with. And so the way that would work is, uh, the Secretary of State would assign an investigator, uh, to an issue. That investigator would go look at that issue, and then they would make a recommendation, or they would file their f- uh, their findings with that board.

222. 1:06:04

     And then, uh, the, the homeowner or the property owner, um, could go request that, a hearing before that board. And we set that board up. Um, I didn't know how else to do it, so the governor gets a couple appointments, I think three appointments. The, um, the Secretary- or the President of the Senate gets one, and then the, uh, and then the Speaker gets one. So it'd be a five-member board. I did require, the only requirement I put on there is that, um, that you have to live in an HOA somewhere.

223. 1:06:39

     Um, you know, obviously, if there was a conflict of interest, if, if there was a case coming before you and it was in your association, you would have to recuse yourself in that situation. Um, but, uh, but that was the best I could come up with. Uh, and I'm, and just for the record, I'm not married to this board, but if we could come up with some form of an administrative hearing, that is the whole purpose. Um, the third piece of this bill is, is there's, it's a bill of rights for our, for our homeowners and, and our property owners, and essentially that's pulling laws that are existing laws that are there to protect them now but aren't doing the job, but we're pulling them in and making sure that everyone is very clear on what those rights are.

224. 1:07:28

     And then the fourth and final piece that we're addressing is around the foreclosures. Um, we're seeing some predatory practices out there of, uh, of some board members overstepping their bounds, overstepping their, uh... And really taking people's constitutional rights, and they're using fines and fees to get it to the... Under existing law is, uh, you can foreclose on a, uh, the HOA can foreclose on a home at $2,000.

225. 1:08:01

     Um, and so w- we have heard in instances where they have, uh, again, they've, they've put these fines and fees. People are, are, are arguing against them, saying they don't own, owe those, and then it gets to that 2,000, and then the foreclosure proceedings, uh, take place. In fact, I was, uh... One of our very own members in the Senate, uh, came to me the other day and showed me where that had happened to her. So, um, so this is real.

226. 1:08:31

     So what we did on the foreclosures, we've taken it to $4,000, and then we have said no fines and fees can count towards that number. We even took it a step forward and said anyone in the rears that, um, that as they pay their money, that money will go, uh, to the dues first until they get out of the rears, um, on their dues, and then everything after that would go towards the fines and fees. So that's the crux of the bill. I did leave a, um, an out for any HOA, POA, COA where if they, everybody gets along and it's just Disneyland, then they actually do not have to register.

227. 1:09:15

     Uh, they would just send a letter to the Secretary of State's office, uh, signifying that they exist, and then they have the right to collect dues and assessments, but they do, they will not be able to, uh, collect fines and fees. So that's the bill, and more than happy to take questions. Senator James, did you want to add anything?

228. 1:09:39

     No.

229. 1:09:39

     If the Chairman allow.

230. 1:09:40

     No. Please, Senator James. I know you worked on this for years as well, and you had a study committee directly on this issue.

231. 1:09:46

     Five of them.

232. 1:09:46

     Five of them. And so I know this bill's a long way coming. As Chairman Brass said, it's not the perfect solution, but it's definitely a good step, in my opinion, a good step in the right direction. You want to share with the committee?

233. 1:09:56

     It is a good step, and I thank you very much for offering this. Um, I had the first meeting when people were telling me that, uh, they were selling their home, their homes were being sold on the courthouse steps. I didn't believe it at first, but I started looking at all the information, and I saw it's very true. Uh, that first lady had a fine of $1,000 because she paid... Not because she didn't pay, because she was up on all her dues, but she had shutters, uh, painted black, and, and her covenant said only white.

234. 1:10:36

     And the other person was Christmas decorations. They had the big things out there, but the covenant didn't allow them that, uh, opportunity. They told them they gotta take it down. Charged her $1,000. She didn't have $1,000. Two, uh, two weeks came and she still didn't have it, so they started adding $100 a day till it got to $5,000. But at $2,000, they applied with the courts to go down and sell her home and didn't even tell her, so she didn't know that she was gonna lose her home.

235. 1:11:06

     It was paid for. They were gonna buy this lady's house because whatever the bank want. So I got involved. And can everyone stand up who came here today and have come to some of my meetings? Do you mind standing up?

236. 1:11:27

     Today I thought we would have two or three people that would come at 6:00 in the evening. At the last minute we were told... And all of everyone here has a horror story, uh, and we wanna do something to help them. And so yes, this would help. It won't resolve everything, but I hope that we can continue to look at it. If... And I, I wanna appeal to y'all, all the members, to please consider this. And this is not just the city of Atlanta. Y'all can sit down now.

237. 1:11:58

     This is not just the city of Atlanta. This all 159 counties.

238. 1:12:04

     Right.

239. 1:12:05

     And I could have sent some of the members, uh, some of the people who came to all of you, too, because it's somebody in every, every, every district. Uh, they've even been coming to my office. In the day I think I'm gonna leave when y'all leave at 3:00 or 4:00, well, 7:00 and 8:00 sometime I'm still talking to people who have made an appointment to come and sit down, and I can't... I feel helpless unless we pass some legislation. One other thing I wanted to add that what happened with the Secretary of State offered to allow non- nonprofit, lady, the lady from nonprofit-

240. 1:12:44

     Mm-hmm

241. 1:12:44

     ... in this, under the secretary-

242. 1:12:47

     Nabilah

243. 1:12:47

     ... to, to be able to be over this apartment. She would, would talk to some of the people who called. And so I wanted a 1-800 number, but I guess we can give any number if this passes-

244. 1:12:59

     Mm-hmm

245. 1:12:59

     ... so that the people can talk. Because first of all, if you owe even this $5,000 but you can't pay it, you gotta go get a lawyer and he's gonna... The retainer is gonna be even higher than that. And then, but you wanna go and find a, a lawyer. Do you know that some people had really tragic stories and nobody would take their case because the attorneys who, uh, take care of the HOA, uh, they are attorneys, but they are, they can't go with somebody who's gonna be against them, so.

246. 1:13:32

     And, uh, also one last thing. Uh, there are international and national corporations that you will look at in the state of Georgia and about 75% of these are the same people. They, they... And they have corporation. They're not even from here. Some of them don't even know anybody from here. They just have people running it for them. And it's two management companies. Uh, I think the guy in your, uh, community is sitting back here with his wife and baby, and they were showing me...

247. 1:14:09

     Oh, I couldn't believe some of the, uh, information that they had. But the judge won't take it and the lawyers won't take it. If, and, and, uh, that's, and then they're the ones too who buy some of the houses that the big corporations don't want. And they're, they're, they're not just corporations in the United States. This mostly foreign. So please-

248. 1:14:33

     What I'll add, um, Mr. Chairman, if you'll allow, we, you know, one thing we're seeing is, you know, it's, uh, it's like any industry. There's good actors and bad actors. And the, the idea of this bill is, is not necessarily to punish the good actors. Um, but if we add the accountability, accountability, we add the transparency, we can weed out the bad actors. And what we've seen is a lot of the bad actors, to Senator James's point, are from outside this state.

249. 1:15:05

     I believe, uh, the management company she was referring to from our constituent is down in, I believe they're out of Florida. And, uh, you know, when I've got, uh, 40 homeowners meeting with me at 7:00 on a Friday night, w- every one of them with a totally separate issue, um, there's a problem. And that, that opened my eyes, it opened my ears. And, uh, I'll add, too, the reason we chose the Secretary of State's office to, to house this is they already house nonprofits.

250. 1:15:40

     And so, uh, a lot of the language you're seeing in this bill is mirrored over from the nonprofit, uh, laws that we have on the books. And, um, you know, and these, essentially most of these associations are not-for-profits, and so, uh, so they can kinda operate in the same space. And, um, you know, again, this, this bill to me is, is kind of the- The foundation of, of many other bills and laws that will come, come after.

251. 1:16:12

     Um, but it does kinda lay the groundwork and it, and it does establish a, a place to where now we have a, a home for HOAs to where they will be accountable.

252. 1:16:24

     All right, you do have some questions from the committee. Senator Steele?

253. 1:16:27

     Thank you, Chairman. Chairman? Chairman.

254. 1:16:30

     Chairman.

255. 1:16:31

     Chairman Sandwich. I, I know where this is coming from. I, I probably have over 1,000 HOAs in, in my district. I've been an HOA, um, officer for years. Um, as you were going through the bill, I, I took time and just as a point of reference, I've never seen a bill reference the Secretary of State more times than this. It's actually in it 58 times in 60, 16 pages.

256. 1:16:57

     Wow.

257. 1:16:57

     Uh, I don't even think there's a bill that relates to the Secretary of State's office that has referenced the Secretary of State that often. Um, I think everybody on the panel knows how overworked and underfunded that agency is. I'm curious why you didn't look at the statewide business court that has a very open docket right now, and they have investigators, not referees, that we're hoping to train through the SOS office that is so understaffed. When, when we have something that was created five years ago that's right here, that has an open docket-

258. 1:17:30

     Mm

259. 1:17:30

     ... that is designed for refereeing business disputes, 'cause that's really what this boils down to. I'm just curious why the difference, other, other than the nonprofit model.

260. 1:17:39

     The, uh, so the business court did actually cross my mind. Um, but my concern there again is, is court. It's a, you know, it's lawyers and judges.

261. 1:17:51

     But they're virtual. They don't require you to be in person.

262. 1:17:55

     But you still need a lawyer.

263. 1:17:57

     Pay a lot of money.

264. 1:17:58

     That you cannot find, nor may you, you may not be able to afford. So that was, again, if we could, if we could figure out a mechanism to where, you know, you, you force the two entities, the two parties to go in without a lawyer, I'd be okay with that.

265. 1:18:19

     I'm just thinking of a way to do BDUs and-

266. 1:18:21

     I don't think these lawyers on the panel would like that, but ...

267. 1:18:23

     Well, poor country lawyers don't make a lot of money, so-

268. 1:18:26

     Yeah, right

269. 1:18:26

     ... it's, uh, there's, there is that.

270. 1:18:28

     We don't have any-

271. 1:18:29

     Well, HOA lawyers make less, which is why you can't find them

272. 1:18:32

     The ... If I may on the... I don't think you could go through the statewide business court. It's a constitutionally created court with very limited jurisdiction. It doesn't have the ability to have boards or oversight. They literally are referees. Well, it's a referee. It's one judge. And so you'd have to restructure that whole court to have the ability to have oversight as, as the Secretary of State does.

273. 1:18:53

     But we don't have referees in the Secretary of State's office, and we would be creating a significant increase. I, I'm just wondering where, you know, if, if we talk to-

274. 1:19:04

     So-

275. 1:19:04

     ... Secretary Raffensperger-

276. 1:19:05

     So the funding-

277. 1:19:06

     ... like what does that go through?

278. 1:19:06

     So there is a funding mechanism. They, these, e- every association will be required to, to register, and it'll be $100 fee every, every year. And, um, we think, we don't know, we think there are a little over 13,000 HOAs in the state. I've heard anywhere from 7,000 up to 25,000. So, um, but the latest thing I heard was about 13,000. So you can do the math on that.

279. 1:19:37

     A referee, I don't think, would cost $1.3 million. Um, so I think we can, uh, we could fund it through those fees.

280. 1:19:47

     May I add? Plus, uh, the Secretary of State's office offered it to us-

281. 1:19:53

     Mm-hmm

282. 1:19:53

     ... and came and spoke at two of the meetings that we had, and they offered to do that. And that was the director of one of the departments, Non- for nonprofits.

283. 1:20:03

     Mm-hmm.

284. 1:20:04

     And the, of course, the Secretary of State had already approved.

285. 1:20:08

     But again, I go back to my earlier statement, the, where it made the most sense was around they're already handling nonprofits. And so the e- e- the law was already there. The infrastructure within the department is already there. It's all there. Like, you talk about appointing a referee. They can appoint a referee from within the office. They have investigators now. It's all, all the infrastructure is built.

286. 1:20:39

     We're not... They would just... We're adding duties to it, and we're adding a little funding that would be up to the legislature to how much of that they got.

287. 1:20:50

     So we would collect the $100 per HOA at the state level, and then allocate-

288. 1:20:54

     Well, the-

289. 1:20:54

     ... it back to the SOS?

290. 1:20:56

     It, uh, correct me if I'm wrong. When, when you, when you renew your corporation or your business license, that $50 goes into the general fund or stays with the Secretary of State's office.

291. 1:21:08

     Would, maybe-

292. 1:21:09

     Secretary of State's fine

293. 1:21:10

     ... if we go straight to-

294. 1:21:11

     Just issue, but go-

295. 1:21:12

     I- is that written in law?

296. 1:21:14

     Yeah. So it's, uh, when it gets to your-

297. 1:21:15

     Well, I didn't know you guys turned it to a-

298. 1:21:16

     No, no, no, no, no. Sorry. We, we have a, we have a bill to change that.

299. 1:21:19

     Okay.

300. 1:21:20

     So

301. 1:21:21

     Well, and I mean, if we need to specify this $100 needs to go to the general fund, I don't, I'm not o- opposed to that.

302. 1:21:28

     Chairman, is that where the... You had a question?

303. 1:21:29

     But I didn't designate where the money goes.

304. 1:21:32

     The other new member of the committee.

305. 1:21:33

     I've got, I've got a question still, but he, his, his mic

306. 1:21:37

     Okay.

307. 1:21:38

     Chairman Brass, thank you for bringing this issue up. Um-

308. 1:21:41

     It's his first question.

309. 1:21:42

     Yes. Uh, for the record, that is the first question.

310. 1:21:44

     I don't guess I should haze him.

311. 1:21:46

     But, uh, and, and, uh, for the record-

312. 1:21:48

     I'm honored I'm getting your first question.

313. 1:21:50

     Yes. Yeah.

314. 1:21:50

     This has-

315. 1:21:50

     I mean-

316. 1:21:51

     ... come full circle.

317. 1:21:51

     All right. Let's, let's get the question out.

318. 1:21:53

     Okay. Let's get this over with. Um, anyhow, uh, I'd just like to thank for bringing this up. I think it's a, a real issue. I've, I used to write these HOAs, either when they expire or when, when they were at their infancy and There's a lot of over-eagerness, a lot of, uh, near former So- Soviet state type of, uh, dictatorships being written in th- in these, in these covenants. Uh, but as far as i- you know, collecting on these dues and, and fines, uh, did you explore the magistrate court process as far as, you know, i- is the court of remedy as a f- I mean-

319. 1:22:32

     No, I-

320. 1:22:33

     As opposed to this board?

321. 1:22:34

     No, to answer your question, I did not want court to be the first remedy. I did not want that. I wanted an investigation and an administrative hearing to be the first level of, of reprieve, if you will. Um, so again, I mean, uh, maybe magistrate be a second level. Uh, I wouldn't be against that. But, uh, but to me, I, I, I think an administrative hearing so that i- if, if you go into that and le- let's just say someone goes in and they didn't wanna cu- they didn't cut their grass and they get a fine, they don't wanna hire a lawyer for that.

322. 1:23:16

     Uh, and then they go in and they find out, "Okay, well, it was in the bylaws. I missed that. I'm wrong. I'll pay it." And they should pay it. But we are giving the Secretary of State the ability to say, "Okay, well maybe $1,000 is too much that the HOA charged that person to send a landscape company out to cut your grass. You know, the cost of that bill was, you know, $200. So you get $200 plus, you know, interest, whatever." Uh, we are giving them that ability.

323. 1:23:49

     But, um, but again, I, I guess going back to your question, to me, an administrative, some sort of administrative hearing to me needed to be the first remedy available.

324. 1:24:03

     I don't wanna cut ... We, we could have a discussion all the time, which is important, but we also wanna keep a quorum or the bill could stall out-

325. 1:24:09

     Okay

326. 1:24:09

     ... for not being able to take action. I'm getting ... The reason I'm talking to people, I'm trying to see who can stick around. I know we have a short window. So, um, if somebody's intention is to talk the bill where we can't pass it, you might be successful. But if you support the bill, we want to get a motion as soon as we can. Senator Tillery.

327. 1:24:25

     Um, I, I have an amendment-

328. 1:24:27

     Okay

329. 1:24:28

     ... on my gentleman's point. Senator, line 305. I understand what you're trying to do. You're trying to make this administrative process go fast, and I get it says on lines 307, after the decision comes out on the administrative hearing, you got 15 days to appeal, and then 20 days from the entry of the order. I get that. One of my questions is, in the sentence on line 305, you talk about the hearing, then it gets to, "At the conclusion of the hearing, the board shall report its findings." Are you expecting them to report their findings that day?

330. 1:24:58

     You just said a lot real fast.

331. 1:25:00

     I try to tell everybody to speed it up. My pastor-

332. 1:25:02

     I know

333. 1:25:02

     ... today said preachers slow down. I guess I should listen-

334. 1:25:05

     Yeah

335. 1:25:05

     ... to the pastor. I, I kicked-

336. 1:25:06

     But-

337. 1:25:06

     ... our day off some 12 hours ago with, um-

338. 1:25:09

     What line are you on? Where's the-

339. 1:25:09

     Line 305. You got a, this administrative procedure, and it's moving fast. In line 307 you say, you know, you got essentially 15 days to do what they said.

340. 1:25:20

     Mm-hmm.

341. 1:25:21

     And then you've got 20 days to decide if you're gonna file an appeal. My question is, in line 305, there's a period, then it says, "At the conclusion of the hearing, comma, the board shall report its findings and render its conclusions." Are you wanting them to report their findings that second, that day, or are you wanting them to take time to think it over? And there's a reason why.

342. 1:25:42

     'Cause it does give them 15 days to ... That's what you're-

343. 1:25:45

     Well, no, no, I ... 'Cause the 15 days doesn't trigger until the court rules-

344. 1:25:49

     Yeah, when does the 15 days-

345. 1:25:49

     ... or the administrative hearing rules.

346. 1:25:51

     Okay. So give-

347. 1:25:52

     Yeah, I would like a decision right then and there.

348. 1:25:53

     Then we need to give you an amendment.

349. 1:25:55

     Okay.

350. 1:25:55

     'Cause that's what I was gonna say.

351. 1:25:56

     I'll accept.

352. 1:25:58

     Well, I'll make a motion-

353. 1:25:59

     Not that I have a choice.

354. 1:26:00

     Why don't we-

355. 1:26:01

     Okay

356. 1:26:01

     ... hold on your amendment- Yeah, you see what I'm saying? ... and until we have a motion.

357. 1:26:04

     Yeah.

358. 1:26:04

     We have-

359. 1:26:05

     Do pass.

360. 1:26:06

     Do you have a question for the author? Any other questions? There's lots of lights, so maybe for amendment. Any other questions for the author of the bill, either author of the bill? All right, we will take a motion. Leader Hatchett, what's your motion?

361. 1:26:19

     I make a motion to pass LC4434.23S.

362. 1:26:23

     By committee substitute. Is there a second?

363. 1:26:26

     Second.

364. 1:26:26

     Second from Senator Rhett. Now we will entertain amendments. Senator Rhett?

365. 1:26:33

     I'll entertain a motion.

366. 1:26:33

     All right. Chairman Tillery.

367. 1:26:35

     Make 11.

368. 1:26:36

     Make 11. All right.

369. 1:26:37

     Based on what the author of the bill has said, on line 305, a- after the period, at the immediate conclusion of the hearing. I would wanna add the word immediate before conclusion.

370. 1:26:54

     And that'll make certain we trigger when the 15 days-

371. 1:26:56

     Correct

372. 1:26:56

     ... starts.

373. 1:26:56

     And make sure ... And otherwise, I mean, look, if you wanted to give them 10 days, I can give them 10 days.

374. 1:27:00

     It's all up to you.

375. 1:27:00

     I just wanna know what you wanna do so we write it on there.

376. 1:27:02

     No, I'm, I'm ... Thank you for catching that.

377. 1:27:03

     No problem.

378. 1:27:04

     You're brilliant.

379. 1:27:05

     We have an amendment from Chairman Tillery, a second from Leader Hatchett. Any discussion on the amendment? Mr. Walker.

380. 1:27:13

     May I respectfully request, uh, immediately upon the conclusion of the hearing?

381. 1:27:17

     That sounds great. That sounds like a better motion, with a second. Any discussion? All those in favor of the amendment, please raise your hand. It is you. All opposed? One opposed. All the rest for. All right. Um, any other amendments from the committee? None. All right, Senator Rhett.

382. 1:27:40

     Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Inserting after assessments on line 15, uh, add the following, "To amend Article 6 of Chapter 3 of Title 44 of the Official Code of Georgia Annotated, the Georgia Property Owners Act." S- basically what it does is it provides training For the property owners and HOA members

383. 1:28:10

     Could we do this, you had this printed in advance, it was some training requirements the author agreed with, it's my understanding too, but it was printed, but it was just done through a previous version of the bill. Would it be easier to, for us to pass these out and then let-

384. 1:28:24

     Oh, they don't have them?

385. 1:28:25

     No, they don't have them yet, do they? Let's pass these out, that way you don't have to read the whole thing. And then we can let Mr. Walker tell us how to fit that into this draft, and I'll let you explain it, and that might go a little quicker.

386. 1:28:40

     Go ahead and explain your intent, Senator Rhett, if you will.

387. 1:28:43

     Basically, the amendment simply adds basic training requirements for property owners, associate board members, to promote transparency, accountability, and good govern- governance. Just basically training in how to be a good HOA leader.

388. 1:29:04

     All right, everybody's got a copy of the substance of the amendment.

389. 1:29:08

     Thank you.

390. 1:29:09

     And Mr. Walker, what will we need to change to make this comply with this bill? Or can we give you some leeway to do that?

391. 1:29:16

     If, if, yes, if the, if the committee would allow me, uh, the discretion just to make those necessary changes to conform it to the LC 443423S rather than the previous version of the bill.

392. 1:29:30

     All right, let's see, do we have a second on the proposed amendment? Second from Leader Hatchett. Any discussion on the proposed amendment? Um, Senator Bearden.

393. 1:29:41

     I don't even know who this question goes to, um, we'll go with the author. Uh

394. 1:29:46

     Why not?

395. 1:29:47

     If, okay, we talked about small HOAs, and you said they would not have to register with the secretary of state, correct?

396. 1:29:55

     Any, any HOA, POA, COA, where everybody gets along perfectly, and they never fine, and they never fee, they don't have to register. They just send in a letter just saying they exist, and, and then they, all they can do is, the only ability they will have is to collect fines and f- or, I'm sorry, collect dues and assessments.

397. 1:30:16

     Would they be exempt from this new amendment on training?

398. 1:30:20

     It depends on, it depends on where you put it.

399. 1:30:25

     Senator Rhett.

400. 1:30:26

     Also, I wanted to insert-

401. 1:30:28

     Mike's turning

402. 1:30:28

     ... between lines 402 and 403, the following Section 3A.

403. 1:30:33

     'Cause I, going back to your question, I think, see, the, those are defined, the ones we j- I just discussed are d- defined as non-registered property owners associations. So, um, you could put in, you probably would need to put something there if you wanted to exempt them. Which again, if I'm, I, if they're all happy, I don't, I don't wanna upset the apple cart. But y'all do whatever you want.

404. 1:31:04

     I was just saying if it's a non-registered, they shouldn't have to attend the training. Because we're talking about maybe 15 houses that may have an HOA on this. About to have a new bill.

405. 1:31:17

     The will of the committee.

406. 1:31:19

     Can I say something?

407. 1:31:21

     Yeah, talk to the chairman.

408. 1:31:21

     Mr. Chairman.

409. 1:31:22

     Would, would the rulemaking authority of Secretary of State allow, like on line 30, allow the Secretary of State to opt folks who don't file out of the training perhaps, if that's what-

410. 1:31:35

     They need to register. They probably need to all register. Because, well, first of all, the boards, like this gentleman from the Buckhead area, he's on the board. And they need training. Um, most of them do not get any training. And it would help the boards, uh, and the board members to have the training, is, is what he thinks, and eight other people back here who are on the board.

411. 1:32:03

     In, in full transparency, this was a separate bill. And, uh, it was Senator Kemp, I believe, who had dropped the bill, and he had come to me and asked about it, and I, I told him I would consider it a friendly amendment. We had discussed potentially doing it on the floor. Um, but, uh, but then he asked me later on if we could do it in committee, and I said, "Well, I'm not on the committee, so you'd have to find somebody to, to make that offer, or offer that amendment."

412. 1:32:34

     Senator Tillery.

413. 1:32:36

     I, uh, thank you. Let me tell you, I, if, if the amendment passes, I think you lose votes on the floor, and I wanna be very fair to you on that one.

414. 1:32:47

     Okay.

415. 1:32:47

     And I love the underlying bill. I'm concerned that the training requirement, especially when you got people who you're trying to figure out if you can fill that board to begin with, I'm afraid you're gonna lose votes that might jeopardize your bill. And that, that would be my suggestion, is to probably don't bring that part with it if you want the underlying bill to pass. I, I-

416. 1:33:08

     I'm, I'm not on the committee, I can't offer amendments.

417. 1:33:11

     Senator Rhett.

418. 1:33:13

     If it please the committee, I'd like to withdraw the amendment.

419. 1:33:18

     All right. And again, just so everybody's watching, this is a process where we're the first step, but you gotta get past the first step. So it doesn't mean this amendment couldn't be offered on the floor or potentially offered on the House side. Um, but I think that's probably a wise move to see if we can get this bill out in time to be considered still. All right, that amendment has been withdrawn. Any other amendments? All right, we're back to the motion to pass by committee substitute now as amended. Any further discussion?

420. 1:33:50

     All those in favor of the motion, please raise your hand. It is unanimous. If Mr. Walker can figure out what we passed, which I know he can.

421. 1:33:59

     Thank you.

422. 1:34:00

     This bill will move on to Rules. Thank you all for all of your work.

423. 1:34:07

     Thank you. Thank my lead.

424. 1:34:09

     Thank you. Thank you for doing that. And with that, we are adjourned.