--- title: House Judiciary Non-Civil Committee, March 5, 2026 (AM) collection: meetings id: 2026-03-05/house-judiciary-non-civil-am cite_as: House Judiciary Non-Civil Committee, March 5, 2026 (AM), video https://vimeo.com/1170297327 (machine transcript by Georgia Commons) canonical_url: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-03-05/house-judiciary-non-civil-am md_url: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-03-05/house-judiciary-non-civil-am.md text_url: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-03-05/house-judiciary-non-civil-am/text source_url: https://vimeo.com/1170297327 date: 2026-03-05 status: machine transcript corpus_version: meetings-2026-10-23-8c15ead0f18d license: Machine transcript and summaries by Georgia Commons from the General Assembly's public video; the video stays on the General Assembly's Vimeo channel; see about.md publisher: Georgia Commons, an independent project of Georgia Civic Data. Not the State of Georgia. Not legal advice. up: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-03-05.md previous: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-03-05/senate-finance.md next: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-03-05/house-judiciary-non-civil-part-2.md index: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/index.md chamber: House body: House Judiciary Non-Civil Committee body_url: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/house-judiciary-non-civil.md meeting_kind: committee part: AM session: 2025-2026 Regular Session start_time: 2026-03-05T09:00:00-05:00 location: 132 CAP duration_seconds: 7665.0 video_id: 1170297327 video_title: 03.05.26 Judiciary Non-Civil (AM) agenda_url: https://www.legis.ga.gov/api/document/agendas/house/Judiciary Non-Civil%2FJudiciary Non-Civil committee meeting 3.5.26.pdf bills_discussed: - HB 285 - HB 984 - HB 1142 - HB 682 - HB 804 - HB 968 - HB 496 summaries_model: gpt-6.1-sol transcript_turns: 820 transcript_chars: 141805 parts: - https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-03-05/house-judiciary-non-civil-am.md?start=0 - https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-03-05/house-judiciary-non-civil-am.md?start=59897 - https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-03-05/house-judiciary-non-civil-am.md?start=119807 --- # House Judiciary Non-Civil Committee, March 5, 2026 (AM) House Judiciary Non-Civil Committee; March 5, 2026; 2025-2026 Regular Session. Video, on the General Assembly's Vimeo channel: https://vimeo.com/1170297327. Agenda: https://www.legis.ga.gov/api/document/agendas/house/Judiciary Non-Civil%2FJudiciary Non-Civil committee meeting 3.5.26.pdf. > This is a machine transcript of the General Assembly's video, made by a speech-recognition model. It is not an official record and can mishear words, names, and numbers. Speakers are not identified. The video is the record: every timestamp links to the moment it plays. ## Summary written by Georgia Commons Written by gpt-6.1-sol from the transcript below. It is not part of the record. Quote the transcript or the video, not the summary. The committee approved [HB 285](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/hb285), [HB 984](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/hb984) and [HB 1142](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/hb1142), and rejected [HB 682](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/hb682), which concerned death sentences based only on one eyewitness. After extensive testimony, members approved an amended [HB 968](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/hb968) to restrict kratom sales to pharmacies and ban synthetic products. Members set aside [HB 804](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/hb804) after questions about its proposed marijuana pardons. The committee also heard [HB 496](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/hb496), concerning cannabis odor as grounds for searches, but took no vote before recessing until 12:30 p.m. ## Bills discussed (7) Each account was written by gpt-6.1-sol from the stretch of the transcript it names. The bill's number is said in that stretch, unless it was the only bill on a committee's agenda. ### HB 285. Law enforcement agencies; judicial procedure for purging a person's involuntary hospitalization information; provide [HB 285](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/hb285) (2025-2026 Regular Session). From [0:09:57](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=597s), turns 4 to 241. The sponsor said [HB 285](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/hb285) would replace automatic removal of involuntary hospitalization information from firearm background checks after five years with a court review. The sponsor described a gun merchant and sheriff discovering that a previously committed person's information no longer appeared in the background check system. The sponsor said a person seeking restoration of gun rights should return to the court that ordered the commitment for an assessment, rather than regain eligibility automatically. No substantive questions or opposing testimony followed. When the committee returned to the bill, members approved it by voice vote and sent it to Rules. No vote count was stated. ### HB 984. Crimes and offenses; court order to locate an alleged victim of child or elder abuse; provide [HB 984](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/hb984) (2025-2026 Regular Session). From [0:13:46](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=826s), turns 53 to 243. The sponsor said [HB 984](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/hb984) would allow law enforcement investigating the welfare of a child, disabled adult or elderly person to seek a superior court order to locate that person after a move from a known address to an unknown address. The sponsor said the judge would retain discretion over issuing the order based on probable cause, and described the proposal as a safety measure prompted by a tragic incident discussed by Griffin investigators. The sponsor reported working with prosecutors and juvenile court judges. There were no substantive questions or public testimony. The committee later approved a substitute by voice vote, with no vote count stated. ### HB 1142. Courts; require certain agreements for certain offenses to be eligible for a Pretrial Intervention and Diversion Program [HB 1142](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/hb1142) (2025-2026 Regular Session). From [0:15:35](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=935s), turns 63 to 258. The sponsor presented a substitute to [HB 1142](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/hb1142), explaining that its main change added language treating the repeat domestic violence offender registry similarly to the sex offender registry. The sponsor said the registry would help people considering relationships identify someone with a history of domestic violence convictions. Asked about costs, the sponsor said the GBI estimated $3.5 million to $4 million to build the system and that an appropriation would be needed. The sponsor gave an effective date of January 1, 2027. When the committee returned to the bill, a member proposed replacing full birth dates with birth years to protect personal information. The member withdrew that amendment after noticing that addresses had already been removed from the bill. The committee approved the substitute by voice vote and advanced it to Rules. No vote count was stated. ### HB 682. Criminal procedure; death penalty shall not be imposed if only evidence is testimony of a single eyewitness; provide [HB 682](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/hb682) (2025-2026 Regular Session). From [0:34:07](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2047s), turns 238 to 238. The sponsor said [HB 682](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/hb682) would prohibit a death sentence when the only evidence was one eyewitness's testimony. The sponsor argued that eyewitness identification can be unreliable, described a classroom experiment producing inconsistent identifications, and compared the proposal with Georgia's two-witness rule for treason. One committee member questioned whether the wording could exclude cases with other evidence but only one material eyewitness, arguing that credibility and cross-examination matter. Another member raised wrongful identifications and asked whether distinguishing direct from circumstantial evidence would help. A district attorney said the bill addressed an unusual situation and did not specify who would decide whether the restriction applied or when that decision would occur. The district attorney also warned that the wording could limit death sentences in cases involving a victim's dying identification. Another member questioned whether the bill presumed a single eyewitness was insufficiently credible. The motion to pass failed by voice vote. No vote count was stated. ### HB 804. Crimes and offenses; codify proclamation that would grant a pardon regarding offense of simple possession of marijuana [HB 804](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/hb804) (2025-2026 Regular Session). From [0:38:17](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2297s), turns 260 to 309. The sponsor said [HB 804](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/hb804) sought to put a presidential-style pardon for simple marijuana possession into Georgia law, granting full and unconditional pardons to low-level offenders while leaving trafficking and distribution prosecutions intact. The sponsor argued that possession records prevent people who have completed their punishment from finding work and supporting families, and cited Georgia Justice Project materials about record relief. One committee member asked about references to the attorney general acting through a pardon attorney. The sponsor said those references came from the federal model. A second member questioned whether language referring to federal law would actually pardon Georgia convictions. The sponsor confirmed that relief for state convictions was the goal and requested help from legislative counsel. The chair set the bill aside because of a constitutional question. No vote or resolution of that question appears in the transcript. ### HB 968. Controlled substances; mitragynine and hydroxymitragynine (7-OH) are Schedule I; provide [HB 968](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/hb968) (2025-2026 Regular Session). From [0:47:01](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2821s), turns 311 to 724. The sponsor said the [HB 968](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/hb968) substitute would ban synthetic kratom compounds while allowing natural leaf sales through Georgia pharmacies, including online, without prescriptions. The sponsor described purchase tracking, warnings and advertising restrictions, arguing pharmacists could explain interactions. An American Kratom Association witness opposed pharmacy-only sales, attributed harms mainly to synthetic products, and favored enforcing existing rules. A Georgia Poison Center pharmacist supported the substitute but preferred a full ban, reporting over 500 toxicity cases since 2021 and a 400% rise in exposures among children under five from 2024 to 2025. Asked whether those reports distinguished leaf from derivatives, the pharmacist said they could not reliably do so. A bereaved spouse attributed a death to kratom mixed with an energy drink and supported a ban. A consumer described benefits for avoiding alcohol and managing pain. An addiction scientist opposed criminalizing 7-OH and disputed safety claims. A botanical bar owner defended tested leaf products. A natural health practitioner warned pharmacy-only sales could raise prices and limit access. A drafting witness said the substitute resolved concerns about automatically following federal decisions. Members adopted an amendment adding concentrations to covered compounds and requiring the poison center number on labels. They rejected an amendment exempting natural leaf from pharmacy-only sales. The amended substitute passed by voice vote and advanced to Rules. ### HB 496. Criminal procedure; scent of marijuana, cannabis, or hemp; provide limitations on stops, searches, seizures, or arrests [HB 496](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/hb496) (2025-2026 Regular Session). From [1:55:28](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6928s), turns 728 to 819. The sponsor said [HB 496](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/hb496) would prevent cannabis odor alone from providing grounds for a search because legal hemp and illegal marijuana cannot be distinguished by smell. The sponsor clarified that the substitute removed restrictions concerning reasonable suspicion and focused on probable cause. One member asked how officers could find additional evidence without searching. The sponsor answered that officers could ask questions and consider visible evidence or other circumstances, but smell alone would not suffice. A second member objected that the text also prohibited requesting consent to search based solely on odor. The sponsor offered to remove that wording, and the first member supported that change, but no amendment was formally adopted. A witness argued that detaining someone because of an odor shared by legal products violated constitutional protections against unreasonable searches. The committee recessed without voting on the bill. > The transcript runs 141,805 characters. A reader that cannot take it at once can read it in 3 parts: part 1 https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-03-05/house-judiciary-non-civil-am.md?start=0; part 2 https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-03-05/house-judiciary-non-civil-am.md?start=59897; part 3 https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-03-05/house-judiciary-non-civil-am.md?start=119807. ## Transcript (820 turns) [0:08:59](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=539s) All right, we're gonna go ahead and get started. Good morning. [0:09:04](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=544s) Good morning. [0:09:05](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=545s) Thank you to everyone who showed up this morning. Uh, I'm gonna call on Chairman Gunner if he'll open us up in a word of prayer. [0:09:15](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=555s) Heavenly Father, we thank you for this day, and we thank you for all those folks that are here in this room. Pray that you be with them, bless them. Uh, be with us while we make decisions for the citizens of this state, and, uh, pray that, uh, uh, you watch over everyone as they leave here. In Jesus' name I pray, amen. [0:09:35](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=575s) Thank you, Judge. Appreciate that. Okay, for planning purposes, uh, we have rules at 11:00 AM this morning, I believe, so we'll s- we'll have to hit the pause button for a second, and then we'll come back. But first off, I'm gonna go with ladies first, uh, Representative Debbie Buckner, House Bill 285. Come on down. [0:10:03](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=603s) Junction City. [0:10:05](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=605s) Junction City, Georgia, junction of two railroads. [0:10:08](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=608s) All right. [0:10:10](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=610s) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [0:10:17](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=617s) Shall I just give a little brief history of how we got here and what the bill does? Will that work? [0:10:24](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=624s) Yeah. [0:10:24](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=624s) Okay. [0:10:25](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=625s) We, we passed this out last year, did we not? [0:10:27](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=627s) We did not. [0:10:28](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=628s) Okay. [0:10:29](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=629s) We have passed it out. [0:10:30](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=630s) Okay. [0:10:31](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=631s) But it hasn't ever made it the whole way. [0:10:33](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=633s) Okay. [0:10:33](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=633s) This bill started in 2019, and it actually s- the story behind it s- was a little bit before that. I live in a rural area, represent a rural area, and a, um, merchant that sells guns and the local sheriff came to me at that time and said that a person that had been involuntarily committed to a mental health hospital had come in to buy a gun. And they ran the name through the background, the criminal background checklist, and the name was not on there. [0:11:05](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=665s) And so we started doing some checking, and that's when we learned that the criminal background checklist is purged every five years from people that are involuntarily committed to the hospital with no, no, um, interface with the person. J- it's just an automatic computer process. And at the time, the GBI director was Vernon Keenan, and he'd been here for a long time and had noticed that that was a problem, and that some of the shootings that we had around the state could be attributed to those people that had been in the hospital, got out, got guns, and did nefarious things. [0:11:42](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=702s) So we wanted to change it, and we actually in that year, got it passed out of the House and into the Senate. And in their wisdom or lack of it, but, um, for whatever reason, it did not pass. So we have brought it back four different times and, and basically the bill is still the same. We feel that before a person that has been involuntarily committed to a mental health hospital gets their gun rights back after being released, they should go back to the court that involuntarily committed them for s- an assessment to allow f- to make sure that we're not allowing a gun to be in the hands of someone that is still suffering with mental illness. [0:12:27](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=747s) And that's the essence of the bill. Um, it has had a couple of changes over the years, um, but that's the bill. We just feel like there needs to be a check-in with the person before they have the right to, to get a gun again. [0:12:43](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=763s) Okay. Thank you. Short and succinct. Any questions from members of the committee? [0:12:51](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=771s) Well, you must have done one of the best jobs I've ever seen there, Representative Buckner. [0:12:55](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=775s) I'll take that. [0:12:57](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=777s) I remember her previous bill. [0:12:58](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=778s) Yeah. [0:13:00](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=780s) So I don't have anybody signed up to this. Anybody come in that didn't get a chance to sign up? Okay, we'll come back to it. [0:13:09](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=789s) There's somebody right here. [0:13:10](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=790s) Oh, there's a hand. Oh, come on down. [0:13:12](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=792s) Did you sign up to speak? [0:13:13](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=793s) Yes. [0:13:14](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=794s) Yes. I just did. [0:13:14](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=794s) Come on. Come on back. Come on back. Representative Buckner, if you want to slide over. [0:13:19](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=799s) As to which one? [0:13:21](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=801s) And is it on this bill, Representative Buckner's? [0:13:24](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=804s) Um, is this the Crayton bill? [0:13:26](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=806s) No. [0:13:26](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=806s) No. [0:13:26](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=806s) Oh. [0:13:26](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=806s) No. [0:13:27](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=807s) Okay, that's what I'm wondering. [0:13:28](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=808s) No. No. [0:13:28](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=808s) Oh. [0:13:32](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=812s) All right. [0:13:32](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=812s) Okay. So- [0:13:33](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=813s) Okay [0:13:33](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=813s) ... I'll just- [0:13:34](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=814s) We'll come back to it. [0:13:35](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=815s) Okay. Thank you. [0:13:36](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=816s) All right. [0:13:36](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=816s) Appreciate your thoughtful consideration. [0:13:41](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=821s) Okay. Next up I'm gonna go with Representative Beth Camp, House Bill 984. Excuse me, Chairman Beth Camp. Georgia Military College's finest. [0:13:53](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=833s) That indeed I am. Thank you- [0:13:55](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=835s) Go ahead [0:13:55](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=835s) ... so much, um, Mr. Chairman, for hearing this bill. Again, committee members, I bring to you HB 984/LC 481654. Um, again, this is a bill that if some- a person, um, being a child, a disabled adult, or an elderly individual, if their welfare is, and safety is being investigated and they go from a known address to an unknown address, it allows law enforcement to speak with a superior court judge, request a court order to locate this individual to make sure that they are safe. [0:14:28](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=868s) So, um, you do have law enforcement, um, going to a superior court judge. They have discretion whether they issue the court order or not if they feel there is probable cause to make sure this individual is safe. Um, so that discretion does exist. Um, this is a safety measure. We had several investigators from the City of Griffin come and speak about a very tragic event, which is why this was brought to be, uh, and I'm open for any questions on this bill. [0:14:53](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=893s) Okay, I see no questions from members of the committee. Let me see if you got anybody signed up on this one [0:15:03](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=903s) Mr. Chairman, I will say that I worked with PAC and also worked with, um, several juvenile court judges on this bill, and they, um, offered some information to help. [0:15:12](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=912s) Okay. It is so noted. I don't see anybody signed up, anybody come in late that wanted to. All right. Chairman Camp, thank you for being here so early. We'll come back to it here shortly. [0:15:26](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=926s) Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. [0:15:28](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=928s) All right. Let's see. [0:15:33](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=933s) Representative Leesa Hagan, House Bill 1142. [0:15:44](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=944s) You can fire when you're ready. [0:15:45](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=945s) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Do have a sub, uh, naturally. I think we've had 12 at this point. Uh, LC620467S. [0:15:57](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=957s) And just for brevity and time constraints that we do have, if you want to just explain what you changed within the sub. [0:16:04](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=964s) Absolutely. The main change in the sub you will find on page five, some language was added in section three, um, suggested by legis- legislative council to equate domestic violence registry with the sex offender registry. So some language was added there to include, um, the recidivist domestic violence offender registry there. [0:16:32](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=992s) Mr. Chairman, I'm sorry, I didn't see this one on the calendar. I don't... Do I have a copy of this one? I have another of Chairman Hagan's bills in my folder for 1142. [0:16:42](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1002s) Read off the LC number. [0:16:44](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1004s) LC620467S. [0:16:49](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1009s) Oh, this is a, this is a pre-trial intervention. This is... Is this the registry bill? Or- [0:16:54](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1014s) Yes, it is. Mm-hmm. [0:16:59](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1019s) Oh. [0:16:59](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1019s) 1142. [0:17:00](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1020s) I'm sorry. [0:17:00](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1020s) HB 1142, right. [0:17:02](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1022s) I didn't realize that was it. [0:17:02](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1022s) Yes. [0:17:03](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1023s) All right. [0:17:04](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1024s) That was the, that was the main change from the last meeting where we ha- presented the bill. Um, Mr. Chairman, I'd be happy to answer any questions about it. [0:17:15](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1035s) Okay. Any questions from members of the committee? [0:17:22](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1042s) All right, I see none. If you want to just slide over. [0:17:25](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1045s) Sure. [0:17:35](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1055s) I see nobody signed up. Someone come in late that didn't get to sign up and want to speak on this bill? [0:17:44](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1064s) Mr. Chairman, I'd be happy to. [0:17:45](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1065s) Okay. Representative Hagan, Judge Gunter has a question. [0:17:50](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1070s) Um, with the, uh, with doing this, is there any cost to the state on putting this together? [0:18:01](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1081s) There would be. GBI's been working to get an estimate on what it would take to build this out. Um, and we've been talking with Appropriations to let them know that, that there would need to be an appropriation here. Um, the estimate was between 3.5 and 4 million- [0:18:21](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1101s) Okay [0:18:21](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1101s) ... to put it together. [0:18:22](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1102s) Just a, a few dollars. [0:18:24](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1104s) Yeah. Drop in the bucket. But we , we, we, we want to offer a resource to women and some men- [0:18:31](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1111s) Sure [0:18:32](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1112s) ... who, who are looking to form relationships, and just to be a resource so that they, as with the sex offender registry- [0:18:38](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1118s) Yeah [0:18:38](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1118s) ... that they could see if they are d- are dealing with someone who has a history of convictions- [0:18:44](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1124s) Well, I, I- [0:18:44](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1124s) ... in this area [0:18:45](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1125s) ... support your bill. [0:18:46](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1126s) Yeah. [0:18:46](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1126s) I like it. Um, uh, my question was directed more to have they put any money up to- [0:18:52](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1132s) There would- [0:18:52](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1132s) ... to play with [0:18:52](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1132s) ... there would have to be an appropriations there to build out that, that website. [0:18:57](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1137s) Okay. All right. Thank you. Uh, the effectiveness though, uh- [0:19:01](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1141s) January 1st, 2027. [0:19:03](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1143s) Okay, so that we can go to the next budget. Okay, gotcha. Thank you. [0:19:09](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1149s) See no other questions, and I don't have anybody signed up, so if you want to just take a, take a card and we'll get back to you. [0:19:18](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1158s) Thank you, sir. Thank you. [0:19:24](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1164s) Thank you. Let's see. Representative Billy Mitchell, come on down. [0:19:41](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1181s) Mr. Chairman of the committee, is, is this the hot seat right here? [0:19:44](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1184s) This is the hot seat. [0:19:45](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1185s) Okay. [0:19:48](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1188s) Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, I have before you a simple proposal, but one that is certainly, uh, significant in its application. Uh, let me d- give you some background. Uh, 38 states, uh, I should say only 21 states allow the death penalty. Si- uh, six of those 21 have a moratorium. Those that do allow it have such a, uh, involved process when it comes to eyewitnesses', uh, testimony. [0:20:19](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1219s) We'd essentially have to, uh, recreate the criminal code in Georgia if we were to apply, uh, apply that. So this is... This simple proposition simply states that the imposition of the death penalty cannot be if the only evidence is a single person eyewitness, which as most of you know, is the most unreliable evidence. Many, uh, conservative states have this. Uh, as we speak, uh, Texas is deliberating upon this today. [0:20:55](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1255s) It would be consistent with Georgia Code OCGA 16111, uh, for the cur- the, uh, accusation of, of, uh, treason. They have what they call a two-person eyewitness rule, meaning that before you can be sentenced to, uh, for treason, you must have at least- A two-person eyewitness. Uh, so that is the essence of the bill. I'm prepared to take any questions. [0:21:23](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1283s) Looks like you have one from a gentleman who's prosecuted and, uh, sat as judge over a few. [0:21:31](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1291s) I've actually done a couple of these. All right, so, um, [0:21:37](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1297s) the, the problem I have with the language in here is, uh, the only evidence, that phrasing. [0:21:43](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1303s) Mm-hmm. [0:21:43](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1303s) Um, because there's all kinds of evidence, not just testimony. [0:21:48](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1308s) Mm-hmm. [0:21:49](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1309s) But the way I could read this is no other evidence but an eyewitness. And if I only have the one, I would agree with you, I probably wouldn't even try a case like that. [0:22:01](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1321s) Right. [0:22:01](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1321s) But, um, uh, it, it seems to me that you're... The way I read it, the way I could read it as a judge is only evidence is a witness, not anything else, and that's, uh, that's the problem I have with the language here. [0:22:20](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1340s) Well, well, well, Judge, uh, to be... Mr. Chairman, uh, the reality is that is why the bill is needed. If the only evidence is a single person eyewitness... If there's additional evidence, uh- [0:22:34](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1354s) But if I've got Mother Teresa testifying, a credible witness can still carry the day. I just, uh, again, the limitation that you have on here, um- [0:22:47](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1367s) Let me give you, um... I'm glad you mentioned that. That gives me an opportunity to get into some, some other evidence. Harvard professor, a law professor, was conducting a, uh, test on this eye- uh, eyewitness testimony. He staged a crime- [0:23:10](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1390s) Mm-hmm [0:23:10](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1390s) ... in which as the students were coming into the classroom, the supposed, uh, criminal was running out. Uh, police were summoned. They were all locked in the classroom, and they were all interviewed. And, uh, they were to describe the particular... There were some Mother Teresas in, in that, uh, group. The, the variety of answers was just amazing. And as you probably know, the, the police are, uh, allowed when they're, uh, interrogating folks or interviewing, they're allowed to be dishonest. [0:23:49](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1429s) They're allowed to say, you know, "Do, there, there's some rumors that you had a part in it." [0:23:53](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1433s) Mm-hmm. [0:23:54](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1434s) The descriptions became even wi- wildly, uh, uh, uh, because they tried to make sure, uh, there's other instances of not... You know, Georgia doesn't have what we call a double blind lineup, meaning, uh, maybe the officers know who the criminal is, and when they bring people in, that can be influential. Uh, not having, uh, you know, the jury instructions. Judges are not, uh, uh, you know, some states they're required to say, uh, eyewitness testimony is patently sometimes unreliable. [0:24:29](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1469s) They're not allowed to say that in Georgia. So if the only evidence, now to your point, if you have Mother Teresa and Father whomever- ... uh, that's more than one eyewitness, and that would be acceptable. [0:24:43](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1483s) Yeah. Well, the, nearly all of these ki- type cases have more than one witness, and, and there's a lot of evidence- [0:24:49](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1489s) Then, then they wouldn't be subject to this bill [0:24:51](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1491s) ... but it's just the, the limitation here just- [0:24:53](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1493s) Yeah. If, if they have more than one witness- [0:24:55](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1495s) It all depends on the case that comes out, the credibility of the witness that is testifying. And the defense has the right of cross-examination where they can test that. [0:25:05](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1505s) Right. [0:25:06](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1506s) So that's, that's just my view of it. [0:25:09](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1509s) Yeah. [0:25:09](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1509s) So thank you. [0:25:12](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1512s) You got another one there, Representative Mitchell. [0:25:14](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1514s) Okay. [0:25:14](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1514s) Uh, unless you, Representative Efstration. [0:25:18](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1518s) Thank you. Uh, my question is really more, I think, towards the chairman about his comment. [0:25:27](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1527s) Chairman. [0:25:27](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1527s) Chairman. [0:25:28](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1528s) That'll be more appropriately for, uh, for the discussion part. This question- [0:25:33](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1533s) Okay [0:25:33](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1533s) ... is for the bill author. All right. That's all the questions from members of the committee right now. Uh, Representative Mitchell, so if you want to slide over, I'm sure we've got some folks signed up on this one. [0:25:47](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1547s) All right. [0:25:52](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1552s) Slide over. [0:25:58](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1558s) Well, my eyes may deceive me, but there's no one. [0:26:04](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1564s) It's, it's a quality presentation, Mr. Chairman. [0:26:10](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1570s) Nice. Well, all right. We'll come back to you, Representative. All right, at this time I, I saw my West Georgia Judicial Circuit DA, uh, Sarah Jepore, think she had to step out. Okay. All right. [0:26:26](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1586s) Okay. [0:26:29](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1589s) Next up and Rep- [0:26:31](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1591s) Yeah, I can stay a little longer if that makes sense. [0:26:31](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1591s) Yeah. Oh, yeah. Come on. Come on. Come on down. Feel like Bob Barker this morning. [0:26:36](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1596s) Yeah. [0:26:36](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1596s) I'm out. [0:26:38](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1598s) Uh, Randy McGilley, DA in the Alcovey Circuit. Um, to a certain extent, I guess my initial reaction is just it's sort of the problem that doesn't really exist. I mean, I, [0:26:48](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1608s) I don't know of anybody seeking the death penalty when there's one individual witness. A- and the problem, I guess the issue is how does this get r- in my mind, just procedurally, how does this even get raised? It just says that death penalty cannot be imposed, but when, where, how does that even get addressed and raised in, in this bill? I don't think that's addressed in here at all. Like, who determines that? The judge? The jury? There's a lot of questions that are not answered about this, and that, that's my concern. I mean, I frankly, I, I kind of view the death penalty of [0:27:16](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1636s) You know, if I'm gonna seek the death penalty, it's gonna be because I have no doubt in my mind the person is guilt and there's strong, strong, strong evidence of the person's guilt. Um, and that's just been my practice. Um, so I can't speak for other DAs, but I, I don't think people are, um, seeking the death penalty too often with just one eyewitness. A- and there's always ... I mean, the question is, there's almost always gonna be other witness, o- other evidence, because you're gonna have a medical examiner come and testify. And so I don't know when and how this would ever practically actually come up, um, i- is, is my concern. [0:27:47](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1667s) So I, I, I really just stood up just in case there's other questions. I can answer any questions from anybody. [0:27:52](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1672s) So this is not Michael Cusack and, uh, Van Owen on LA Law just fighting over one witness, uh, who saw- [0:27:59](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1679s) Right. I mean, and now it is the crime that, you know, o- of all the crimes you prosecute, murder's the one where the main witness was killed and not able to testify. So I mean, that is ... I- of all the circumstantial cases we have, murder is the most common, because the one person who saw it happened can't testify. So, but if there's any, if there's not any questions, that's all. [0:28:21](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1701s) There are, actually. [0:28:22](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1702s) Okay. [0:28:22](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1702s) Uh, Chairman Gunter. [0:28:26](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1706s) Thank you. Uh, you would agree with me that if you read this as the only evidence, then that, that's an unusual case. You'd never have one like that, right? [0:28:38](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1718s) R- right. Not, I mean, not a murder case, no. I, I, I mean, I- [0:28:41](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1721s) But, but if you only have ... If you read it a different way and you only have a single witness to put up, you have all the evidence witnesses- [0:28:50](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1730s) Right [0:28:50](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1730s) ... but you have one material witness. [0:28:53](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1733s) That was actually there for when it happened? [0:28:55](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1735s) Right. [0:28:55](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1735s) Right. And that, that would be a concern for sure. That, that if it's read that way- [0:28:58](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1738s) And this could be read that way is the way I'm- [0:29:01](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1741s) Right, and that would be a huge concern, 'cause again, often murderers are the defendant and the dead person- [0:29:07](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1747s) Right [0:29:07](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1747s) ... and only two people that are present. [0:29:08](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1748s) That's right. Thank you. [0:29:10](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1750s) Yes, sir. [0:29:12](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1752s) Representative Panitch. [0:29:13](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1753s) I actually have two questions. [0:29:14](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1754s) Yes, ma'am. [0:29:15](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1755s) So I know you wouldn't do anything that would rely on one witness, and I know how diligent you are for your community. You would agree with me though that every, any prosecutor who has sought the death penalty firmly believed that the person was guilty too? [0:29:30](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1770s) I, I, I would hope. Yes, yes. [0:29:32](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1772s) Okay. [0:29:32](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1772s) I hope so. [0:29:32](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1772s) And, and we know that there- [0:29:33](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1773s) Yeah [0:29:33](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1773s) ... have been exonerations based on false IDs. [0:29:38](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1778s) I, I don't know. I've thought about it. [0:29:40](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1780s) It's more of a rhetorical question. [0:29:41](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1781s) Right. [0:29:42](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1782s) But my, I don't know, my technical question is there's direct evidence and then there's circumstantial evidence. Would you feel better if this limited ... I- if there was no prosecution based on one direct evidence witness? [0:29:58](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1798s) I, I guess my thought on that is I'd ... I think there's a way to look at sometimes circumstantial evidence is actually more reliable. Things like phone records and things that cannot be impeached is often where circumstantial evidence comes in, because it's sort of that other ... It's not relied on one person's perception of it. Circumstantial evidence is often like if somebody, an example, increases their life insurance for their spouse to $3 million two days before someone murders them, uh, you can't really impeach that. I mean, there ... Is there some other explanation for it? Uh, maybe. Um, but I, I, I, I think when we start getting into that, that it- [0:30:34](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1834s) So I think the issue with the, the bill is w- we don't wanna rely on one eyewitness. [0:30:40](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1840s) Right. [0:30:41](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1841s) So would it ... Would you be more comfortable if we ... I mean, that's what the bill says, one eyewitness. So if you have circumstantial evidence, I ... My understanding is you can still bring it up even if you have one eyewitness, but maybe combining- [0:30:57](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1857s) Well, like I said, but again, but again, like I said, murder case is, is the most common case that we don't have an eyewitness to. I mean, we're having to rely on other things most often, because- [0:31:06](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1866s) Right, not in this case- [0:31:06](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1866s) ... there's just no one else to testify. But I- [0:31:08](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1868s) ... I get how, how that works, but- [0:31:09](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1869s) Uh, uh, but again, I still ... In this bill, there's no procedural mechanism in this bill to. Like, where does that ... Who makes these decisions the way this bill is written? Is that ... I- i- if I seek the death penalty and the ... And does this allow the defense attorney to file a motion to basically invalidate my death notice because they believe it's just based on one witness? And do we have some pretrial motion to hammer out whether that's true or not? None of that's- [0:31:36](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1896s) Got it [0:31:36](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1896s) ... in here. [0:31:37](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1897s) Thank you. [0:31:37](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1897s) Yeah. [0:31:40](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1900s) Mr. DA, I had a thought. You have someone that, let's just say they're suffering from a fatal gunshot wound, assailant, uh, you know, flees the scene after firing the fatal shot, and they record an, just let's say a iPhone audio recording. [0:32:00](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1920s) Mm-hmm. [0:32:00](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1920s) And they tell us who- [0:32:02](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1922s) Like a dying declaration- [0:32:03](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1923s) ... committed the shooting [0:32:03](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1923s) ... sort of thing. Right. [0:32:04](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1924s) And, and so under this bill, that could prevent that from being entered as evidence potentially? [0:32:12](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1932s) Uh, I don't think it ... It, it could limit whether or not we could seek the death penalty if there's a dying declaration of the victim. [0:32:17](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1937s) Right. [0:32:17](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1937s) And I, and I would ... I mean, generally the courts, the- there's a reason why that evidence is admissible, is because it is deemed reliable because the person's on the, you know, verge of death. Um, but I, I think that's a good point. I, I, I do think that could limit what we could do in those cases. [0:32:31](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1951s) Okay. All right. Uh, Vice Chairman Hong. [0:32:35](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1955s) Thank you, Chairman. Would you agree with me that this i- is saying we're just assuming that a single, the testimony of a single eyewitness is not credible? We're just- [0:32:50](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1970s) I- [0:32:50](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1970s) We're, we're saying that it's not credible enough. [0:32:53](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1973s) Right. And I, I, I think there's a ... I mean, there's another statute that literally says the testimony of a single witness, if believed, is sufficient to establish a fact, and we tell jurors, juries that all the time. [0:33:03](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1983s) Right. [0:33:03](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1983s) So I, I think the way this is written, it is essentially, as you said, assuming that an eyewitness is not credible. [0:33:11](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1991s) Seeing no other questions, thank you. [0:33:12](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1992s) Thank y'all. [0:33:13](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1993s) And we hope that your better half had a good birthday the other day. [0:33:16](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1996s) She, she did. Yeah. [0:33:18](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=1998s) All right. Uh, we're gonna have to start taking up a benevolent fund for keeping people away from birthdays and- Hope that, uh, Mr. Fincher's grandson had a, a good birthday as well, so. He did, thank you, Mr. Chairman. All right. Uh, no other witnesses, uh, for this one. What say the committee? [0:33:43](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2023s) One. As I was. We'll come back to it. Wait, you got it. Oh, now we got it. All right. What say the committee? Let's bill. Do I hear a motion? Move to pass. The one in front of us. Motion to pass. [0:33:57](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2037s) Second. [0:33:58](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2038s) Okay. Got a motion to pass and a second. Any amendments? Seeing none, all those in favor of the passage of House Bill 682 LC 48 15 22 say aye. Aye. All those opposed, same sign. No. All right. Bill fails. All right. Mr. Chairman. We'll go back to House Bill 285, Representative Buckner. She's already presented this this morning. Uh, any further discussion on the bill from members of the committee? [0:34:36](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2076s) I see no discussion. What's the will of the committee? Motion to pass. I got a motion to pass. Second. Second. All those in favor of the passage of House Bill 285, and let me get the LC number so I've got it right. [0:34:53](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2093s) LC 39 45 57 say aye. Aye. All those opposed, same sign. All right, you're on the rules. Representative, if you get me the rule, if you want to get a rules committee form, bring it down here and come behind and I'll sign that for you. [0:35:11](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2111s) Thank you very much. [0:35:11](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2111s) Okay. All right, we're gonna go back to House Bill 984, Chairman Beth Kemp's bill. Any further discussion from members of the committee on this bill? Move to pass. All right, got a move to pass. Second. And I got a second. Uh, any amendments? Seeing none. [0:35:42](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2142s) All right. All those in favor of the passage of House Bill 984 as the substitute in LC 48 17 23 S say aye. Aye. All those opposed, same sign. All right, it's on Chairman Kemp. She may have had to go on to another meeting. All right. Thank you. Okay. I'm gonna come back to House Bill 1142, Chairman Hagan's bill. [0:36:12](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2172s) Any further discussion from members of the committee? Seeing none, what says the committee? Move to pass. Move to pass. [0:36:20](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2180s) Second. [0:36:20](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2180s) Got a second. Any amendments, Representative Roberts? [0:36:25](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2185s) Uh, yes. I'd like to make a motion to amend line 52 from date of birth to year of birth. We had that discussion in committee last time. [0:36:38](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2198s) This committee or? [0:36:39](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2199s) Yes. And I believe, uh, Rep Ha- Hagan was okay with it just for PII security issues. [0:36:51](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2211s) Well, even though I had to go and deal with this about a year ago, what does the official birth certificates designate in the State of Georgia currently? Is it date of birth or year of birth? [0:37:07](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2227s) Date of birth. [0:37:08](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2228s) Okay. [0:37:17](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2237s) Okay. [0:37:22](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2242s) All right. So they use date of birth, I believe. Okay. All right. You heard the- [0:37:31](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2251s) Oh, I withdraw my motion 'cause it looks like they took the address out of the original bill. [0:37:39](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2259s) Okay. Okay. [0:37:40](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2260s) I'll withdraw. [0:37:41](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2261s) Lady has withdrawn the amendment. All right. Any other amendments? Hearing none, got a move and a second on the substitute to House Bill 1142 LC 620467S. All those in favor of the passage say aye. Aye. All those opposed, same sign. All right. Representative Hagan probably left, so- She's in another meeting. Okay. I'll, uh, get that rules form signed whenever. [0:38:11](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2291s) Okay. [0:38:15](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2295s) Let's see. Next up, I'm gonna go to House Bill 804, Representative Holly. [0:38:20](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2300s) Oh, wow. [0:38:20](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2300s) You can present from right there. What number? [0:38:24](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2304s) Uh, number three. [0:38:26](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2306s) Go ahead when ready. [0:38:27](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2307s) Okay. [0:38:30](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2310s) All right. Uh, thank you, committee. I now bring you, uh, House Bill 804, uh, which, uh, fortunately I've been able to carry for the last four years, uh, and, um, and, and, uh, it finally seen the light of day. Um, what this bill... Just a little background kind of before, um, go with my, uh... When I got elected in 2018 and got that nice little office, uh, the very first visitor who showed up unexpectedly, um, was a 6'6", uh, judge, uh, Henry County Superior Court Judge Brian O'Mara, and he said, um, he said, "Well, you might think I'm here wanna congratulations. [0:39:14](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2354s) Here's what I'm really here for. Uh, we prosecute, um, so many cases, um, and for low-level offenders, and while I- want our drug courts, uh, to, uh, succeed. We've been able to make sure that we have folks who are following the laws and been able to get the help they need. He said, "Far too many times we got folks on low-level, uh, misdemeanor, simple possession marijuana charges, and unfortunately are not able to continue on with their life." He said, "If you could do something about that, and I know that seems miraculous, but I would, um, highly appreciate you." And then the giant walked out of my office. [0:39:57](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2397s) So, um, here we are. Um, uh, HB 804, uh, recognizes, um, that there's a, uh, that the, uh, office of the president, um, uh, issued a pardon for those who are having a low-level simple possession, uh, charges. And what this at least attempts to do is to codify, uh, within Georgia state law, um, uh, granting a full and unconditional pardon, uh, for those with a simple possession charge. [0:40:29](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2429s) Uh, and it also makes it to align, um, with the current Georgia law so that for those who are, um, who- whose activities are more along the lines of trafficking and, and, uh, distributing, um, much larger quantities, uh, that, uh, the laws to prosecute them can still hold. Um, this is, this is not for those. But really, uh, this is just a focus on low-level offenders who, um, have made their time, have paid their debt to society, and to allow for them to be able to, uh, get back in, uh, to the world of work. [0:41:11](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2471s) Um, I did provide, um, some documents I have of... Sorry for my... Thank you. Pass it around. Appreciate that. Uh, from, uh, Georgia Justice Project, um, to show that, um, for those who are, uh, who have been able to gain advantage, uh, of these efforts to, uh, stop recidivism and to grant for record expungement and, and low record rest- and, uh, record restriction, they've actually been able to be very supportive, uh, to Georgia's economy and, um, and have actually, um, been on the straight and narrow. [0:41:54](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2514s) And so, uh, what this hopes to do, especially in light of the many, uh, jobs that are likely to come to our state with this expanding transportation infrastructure and, uh, certainly the World Cup, is to, um, allow folks with opportunity to be able to, um, to be able to get a, a clean start, and, uh, that's what this bill does. [0:42:23](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2543s) Okay. Any questions from members of the committee? One from the chair. We expecting that many left-handed cigarettes coming up at a soccer match? [0:42:37](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2557s) Oh. I mean, probably not. You, yeah, uh, I... Sorry. It, it took me a pause. I was like, "Wait a second. Is he referring to the reefer?" [0:42:49](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2569s) I wouldn't know. Uh- [0:42:54](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2574s) Um, but, uh, no, I, I, uh, I just hope that for those who, um, oftentimes, uh, for those soccer matches, many times they have, uh, parking lot attendants and folks who are just trying to get their life together at the low level. And, um, um, you know, if they, if they have done that and paid their debts, I just want them to be able to make sure that they can be able to take care of their families. [0:43:19](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2599s) Understood. Any other questions from members of the committee? [0:43:26](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2606s) Chairman. [0:43:26](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2606s) Yes, sir. Chairman Leverett. What nu- Are you 16 over there? [0:43:30](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2610s) No. [0:43:30](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2610s) What's the number on... [0:43:31](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2611s) This one, it doesn't have a number. This is 16. I can use it. [0:43:34](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2614s) All right, you can do 15. I'll think of a- [0:43:36](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2616s) One question. I was, I was... Is that back on? Okay, there we go. Uh, there's a reference in here to the attorney general acting through the pardon attorney. [0:43:45](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2625s) Mm-hmm. [0:43:46](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2626s) Is, what is that? Do we have, is there an office of the pardon attorney within the attorney general's office, or...? [0:43:52](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2632s) Um, I think this is with respect to, um, the, on the federal side, but, um- [0:43:58](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2638s) Oh, that's a federal office. [0:43:59](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2639s) Yes, sir. [0:44:00](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2640s) Okay. [0:44:03](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2643s) I guess I'm, I'm just- [0:44:04](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2644s) I was, this is a parity bill. So, um, looked at the, um, what was granted by the office of the president, and just wanted to be able to make sure that that could be, um, that we could be able to do something at the Georgia state level. [0:44:19](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2659s) So we're, we're taking the language from the federal pardon document and putting it into code? Is that what we're doing here? [0:44:27](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2667s) Um, can I ask, uh, I am not an attorney, um, if, um, um, if I could- [0:44:33](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2673s) I'm sure that's a source of constant pride for your mother. [0:44:39](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2679s) I don't know. I think- [0:44:40](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2680s) When I, when I told mine I wanted to be a lawyer, I, I, the, just the horror in her voice was palpable. But- [0:44:46](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2686s) Um, but yeah, I would probably refer to, um, some of our, um, uh, our groups who are in the audience, um, uh, if, uh, for those who may be, uh, more familiar. [0:44:59](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2699s) Okay. [0:45:03](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2703s) Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was just, I was just trying to make sure I understand what the, the language was. [0:45:07](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2707s) All right. [0:45:08](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2708s) Uh, let's see. Number 11. Chairman Crowe. [0:45:13](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2713s) Thank you. I, uh, we may be in the same situation, um, 'cause I'm not a lawyer either, and I think I was gonna ask something that's similar to what he asked, 'cause a lot of the language in here is referring to the US code. And, uh, you want the attorney general of Georgia to pardon them from- U.S. violations of this or violations of the Georgia law under 16 1330 or ... 'Cause I, I don't, I don't read it that way, and I may be reading it wrong. Are you wanting them to be able to be pardoned under of a simple possession offense that they were convicted under state law of? [0:45:49](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2749s) Yes, sir. [0:45:50](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2750s) Okay. And this, this do you think says that? I'm looking to my lawyer friend down there who was looking at me. [0:46:18](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2778s) We have a constitutional question, so what I'm gonna do while we figure this out, Representative, I'm gonna move on to another bill and we'll come back to this, uh, here in a bit. [0:46:32](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2792s) Yeah, that's what ... [0:46:33](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2793s) Yeah. [0:46:35](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2795s) And, um, perhaps, uh, Mr. Chairman, um, when we are able if, uh, we could consult, uh, legislative council, particularly Holly Carter who helped me in, in being able to draft this to see whether, um, whether this would, this would be correct. [0:46:53](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2813s) Okay. All right. Sounds good. All right, we're gonna move on. I'm gonna- [0:46:59](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2819s) Yes. [0:47:00](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2820s) Let's see. House Bill 968, Representative Townsend. [0:47:14](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2834s) Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, members of the committee. Talked to quite a few of you yesterday and past couple days. As you know, there's a new substitute, uh, that you have, and basically, uh, Mr. Chair, if that's okay, I'm gonna read kind of what the substitute w- is and the corrections or whatever else, additions to it, and read some, uh, quick, uh, uh, supporting evidence regarding that. First thing we're, uh, talk about, what I mentioned quite a few, few of you is about putting it behind the pharmacy counter. [0:47:45](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2865s) Uh, this is where you can ask the pharmacist questions if you need to. You don't have to, but you can if you want to, and that's one of the things I learned from a, a leading research- researcher, University of Florida. He's conducted research, Oliver Grundmann, uh, on kratom. I mentioned him the other day. And quote, unquote, um, he says, "As I mentioned, if there's ..." We talked on the phone first and followed up in email. "As I mentioned, if there's a way to regulate the kratom should be sold, my suggestion would be to limit them to sale at pharmacy stores where a pharmacist is present to be consulted. [0:48:19](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2899s) I think that would be better than a gas station clerk." That is around line 228. [0:48:24](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2904s) Which LC are you working on? [0:48:25](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2905s) Um, s- apologize. I am working on LC521070S, 1070S. [0:48:37](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2917s) That ... [0:48:44](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2924s) So the one that just got passed out is not the- [0:48:50](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2930s) This is the one I gave the office yesterday. [0:49:01](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2941s) 1070 is the version that Representative Townsend has provided and is testifying to here. [0:49:10](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2950s) Okay. [0:49:32](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2972s) I don't have it. [0:49:32](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2972s) Okay, you can continue. [0:49:33](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2973s) Okay. [0:49:37](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=2977s) This, uh, banned synthetics, we're looking lines 24 through 36. It protects the natural leaf. That's line 114. I think that's been the most contentious part about this whole process is the natural leaf, so it does protect the natural leaf. Um, r- real, provides for a real-time logging system. This may be the only difference in what we talked about. I m- I mentioned it verbally to a group yesterday, but this is basically same thing as treat. Uh, uh, I believe it's something like, uh, Allegra D or Sudafed, stuff like that, where it's behind the counter. [0:50:10](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3010s) So it's actually a tracking system. We have a bill i- in another part of the House that talks about ag doing it. Um, that hasn't come out yet, so this is kinda the sa- this would be a good way to kinda track it for them. And so, uh, this provides a logging system. That's lines 57 through 82. Uh, the pharmacy board gave me the language, uh, how they do it, so we're going strict by the law. No new expenses, no added expenses. There's no cost of this because it's already being done, so we wouldn't need appropriations to staff a, a couple investigators or things like that. [0:50:45](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3045s) This is already being done. Uh, allow for online sales. This is a big contentious. I've had two Georgia callers. One was a retired Marine colonel. Two Georgia callers who said protect the natural leaf. They also want it protected, and they thought it was a good idea about, uh, purchasing it this way and online. They do theirs online. So you can still purchase it through online, it would just be through a licensed Georgia pharmacist. That way they can still consult either by video, either in, um, talking on the phone, whatever, how they do it, that's totally up to them. [0:51:20](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3080s) That's line 119. We wanna make sure you do not, again, you do not need a prescription for this. You do not. Same offenses as current law. Uh, precautionary statements on label, line 223. Add stuff like the pregnancy bit. Uh, one of the things we found out- Through current research through University of Florida and Georgia. And Georgia still wants to ban it, but they, they can live with this bill. Um, UGA Pharmacy School. One of the things we learned through research is people on high blood pressure medicine shouldn't take it. [0:51:52](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3112s) Seizure, people seizing, seizure medicine shouldn't take it. Pregnant women shouldn't take it. Make sure they know about that. That's why we have the pharmacist there to ask questions to, if they wish. They don't have to. We're not trying to, we're not forcing anybody to do that, but they can if they want. Um, as advertising restrictions, line 274, um, the researcher also, Oliver, uh, Grohmann also, Dr. Grohmann also mentioned what I just said before about consulting with the healthcare professional before you start this. [0:52:22](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3142s) Um, again, the biggest things right now is we put the cart before the horse. Usually in, people, the way you s- use kratom, they would usually have a, a ton of research available, and everybody would say, "Okay, it's safe. We've had human trials. Let's put it out there." We haven't done that yet. The research is beginning. It is beginning, so we're not outlawing it. Still have access to it. And, uh, that is a Reader's Digest version, but is the changes. And, uh, we did leave out accidentally, I looked at one word, um, concentrations. [0:52:59](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3179s) If we get this through and anybody wants to do an amendment, that's just to tidy, that's to, to strengthen the synthetic piece banning. The, it was left out. That was my fault. I didn't include the word. So it would just be in two or three different spots. But other than that, that is the basis of the bill, and I appreciate your support. Um, thank you. [0:53:20](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3200s) Got a question. Representative Cannon. [0:53:23](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3203s) Thank you, Mr. Chair. Can I have two questions? [0:53:25](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3205s) Yes. [0:53:25](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3205s) Okay. The first one is, I'm just trying to understand, so line 20 through 22, so we're banning the synthetics and the derivatives, and we're taking the pure leaf and putting it behind the counter in pharmacies. [0:53:37](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3217s) Yes, ma'am. [0:53:38](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3218s) Okay. I m- I misunderstood when we had this discussion, um, yesterday, 'cause I, I don't want the pure leaf behind, behind the counter. Would you be open to, um, putting the synthetics or derivatives behind the pharmacy cou- counter and having a carve-out for pure leaf so that it, it can remain accessible to people in gas stations? [0:53:56](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3236s) Uh, no. No, no, we talked yesterday. The pharmacist, as this researcher stated, uh, really would like someone to be able to consult it if they wanna ask. The gas station clerk isn't the right person to ask about, "Is this safe for me?" He doesn't know I'm a blood pressure medicine. I doubt if they could tell you. A lot of times it's some kid out of high school. Or it could be someone else, but probably not a doctor or a pharmacist behind that gas station counter. But thank you for the question. [0:54:29](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3269s) Okay. All right. See no other questions from members of the committee. Uh, if you wanna take a seat over there- [0:54:36](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3276s) Yes, sir [0:54:36](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3276s) ... at the edge of the table. We've got several people. Or... [0:54:40](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3280s) Um- [0:54:40](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3280s) Vice Chairman Hong has a question. [0:54:41](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3281s) Representative, before you leave, what did you say you left out? I missed the... [0:54:47](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3287s) It's the word concentration, concentrations, uh, center section five, and, uh, I believe in new line 205, be on line 204, um, then after 21 and 34. That's just to make sure the synthetics are, are, uh, banned. And I think that's what FDA is trying to do now, and the other bill in the house is trying to do the same thing, is ban synthetics. [0:55:11](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3311s) So where would we, where would that word go in? [0:55:13](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3313s) Let me- [0:55:13](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3313s) I'm sorry. [0:55:14](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3314s) Uh, 205, let me get there. [0:55:19](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3319s) Okay. Ch- ch- ch- ch- ch- ch- ch- two, four. [0:55:27](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3327s) Transition. And line 21. Actually, if you look at line 21, [0:55:38](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3338s) it talks about such term, it starts in 20, such term includes any synthetics, s- seismic derivatives, echoloe derivatives, and analogs. It would go after analogs. [0:55:50](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3350s) And then 30- [0:55:50](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3350s) That's what Trey- [0:55:51](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3351s) It would add it- [0:55:52](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3352s) What word would go in there? [0:55:53](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3353s) After analogs, uh, where, uh, on line 21, it talks about the- [0:55:59](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3359s) What, what word is missing? What do you wanna add there? [0:56:01](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3361s) Uh, concentrations. [0:56:04](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3364s) Okay. Okay, thank you. And other areas- [0:56:07](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3367s) Yeah, it w- [0:56:07](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3367s) ... that may mention that is what you're saying. [0:56:08](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3368s) Correct. [0:56:08](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3368s) Thank you. [0:56:08](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3368s) Yeah, anything related to that. Thank you. [0:56:19](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3379s) Okay, I have several, I have several signed up for this. We still have some pretty big bills that we have to get to today. So here's what I'm, I have to do to be expedient at this 11th hour before crossover. You, I'm gonna give you a minute. Get as much as you can done within that minute, and I'm going to enforce that very strictly. Okay. [0:56:50](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3410s) Uh, let's see. First up, I have Mack. Come on down. [0:57:22](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3442s) Okay. Uh, my name is Mack Catto, Senior Fellow of the American Kratom Association. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, for this opportunity to address this. One minute's crazy because you heard all that testimony last hearing, including why we weren't here. Uh, there was something said by Mr. Wetherington that ... directly is false, saying that the AKA has paid people to send you emails. That is not true, and you should weigh the credibility of wh- but what Mr. Wetherington said after that. The important takeaway is today is kratom is not 7-Hydroxymitragynine. [0:57:56](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3476s) All of the unfortunate ar- the adverse events and deaths you hear about, and you don't have to believe me, are attributable to the synthetics. And Representative Townsend's bill doesn't do the right thing here, because he's blaming kratom for it. Current law under the KCPA protects people with product formulations. That's what your law today does. It also restricts synthetics. Your law does it, and it does it effectively. We would welcome more enforcement on it. That's a- an important part. Uh, Mr. Wetherington held up all of the long, uh, labeling restrictions that are on kratom products. [0:58:29](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3509s) It's because of his predatory litiga- litigation. They're defensively labeling it. People should know what they're taking, and they should know what the ingredients are, and they should be able to make an intelligent decision based on that. Here's the most important takeaway. S- the state of science today is k- the US government has spent $100 million on kratom. Th- Nora Volkow, the director of NIDA, says you should have it accessible in gas stations. The FDA, HHS, and NIDA all say kratom deaths are rare. When they do occur, it's because of poly drug use and adulterated products. [0:59:01](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3541s) Matt, I'm gonna have to stop, but you might be able to get some of that out through questioning. Uh, Representative Kendrick. [0:59:08](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3548s) I just wanted to clarify that AKA, you meant the American Kratom Association, 'cause I'm a member of a sorority that has- [0:59:15](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3555s) Oh, I'm sorry [0:59:16](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3556s) ... acronyms. I just wanted to clarify. [0:59:21](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3561s) Just, just to clarify that. [0:59:22](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3562s) We would welcome merging with you, but- ... it's the American Kratom Association. [0:59:26](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3566s) Okay. [0:59:29](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3569s) Uh, Representative Bill Fin- Fincher. [0:59:32](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3572s) Uh, you admit then, though, you're, you're, you work for a company, or you, you're a part of an association, and you're trying to get it accessible, more accessible. You're trying to open the door to kratom to more people. [0:59:44](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3584s) We, we represent, uh, the more than 24 million American consumers that consume kratom, and the hundreds of thousands here in Georgia. We work with companies who are willing to be regulated. [0:59:56](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3596s) The companies that you work for. [0:59:58](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3598s) I don't work for- [0:59:58](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3598s) You work with them. Okay. What, you have a l- um, nu- number of, of items there you were trying to show us. What are those items? [1:00:04](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3604s) Okay. Thank you. Uh, this is a sublingual strip made by a 70H manufacturer, which bypasses your gut, which where kratom works. This is a concentrated synthetic, semi-synthetic product. [1:00:16](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3616s) And that's dangerous. [1:00:17](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3617s) Uh, it should be banned. It is wh- the FDA says it's dangerous. [1:00:20](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3620s) All right. What's your budget have, though? [1:00:21](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3621s) They recommended it for scheduling, okay? This is a pseudoxyle product. It's made from mitragynine and then 7-Hydroxymitragynine. It is pseudoxyle. It should be banned. But this is what Representative- [1:00:32](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3632s) But how is it, how is it ordinarily presented? Representative. Okay. [1:00:35](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3635s) Yeah. This is what, where Representative Townsend gets it wrong. This is what should be done. Strengthen the sy- synthetic, semi-synthetic. But this says mi- mi- mitragynine pseudoxyle. And here's the killer, at literally, MGM-14 and 15. This is where they're now chemically taking the plant material and they're converting it. So a 70H product is not kratom, and yet this bill treats it as though, in all of the adverse events and deaths you hear, every adverse event is reported to the FDA, every single one, and they evaluate it. And today the FDA says natural kratom leaf products are not our problem. [1:01:07](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3667s) It shouldn't be behind a pharmacy counter. It should be accessible to people. Is these, these synthetics- [1:01:12](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3672s) Do you have any... May I ask another question, Mr. Chairman? Uh, uh, you have any documents where they say it has been proven that that's not the same thing or- [1:01:24](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3684s) Oh, yes, sir [1:01:24](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3684s) ... you got a, you got a document? I don't see one. Nobody's presented us one. [1:01:27](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3687s) Well, it, we will certainly pre- present it to you. On the FDA and 70H website, you will see a whole array of documents that have been submitted to the Drug Enforcement Administration with the direction from the FDA and HHS that they should ban Schedule 1 synthetic 70H and its synthetic, uh, these other things. They want to ban it. But here's the problem. I brought this box of dots. I'm sorry. [1:01:53](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3713s) Um, thank you. And one other question. Has kratom, even the leaf form, ever been approved by the FDA? [1:01:59](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3719s) It's a dietary supplement, and when you heard testimony, uh, last week- [1:02:03](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3723s) Uh- [1:02:03](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3723s) ... misstates completely. It is not a drug. It has not been approved as a drug because no one's submitted it to be a drug. It is an approved, regulated, FDA-regulated dietary supplement. [1:02:12](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3732s) I interrupted you. You were gonna show us something in that box. [1:02:15](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3735s) Yeah. This is, this is the hysteria that has been created in the state of Georgia. Uh, in Walker County, there were five children that were hospitalized because they had ingested a gummy product, and the emergency room doctors in Walker County all reported it was kratom. I asked the Walker County Sheriff if he would send to the University of Florida, which he did. They tested. No kratom. 116 other drugs. No drugs. What happened was these kids were ingesting these dots, not these particular ones. [1:02:46](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3766s) They, the box of dots was delivered. When you ingest dots too soon, the sugar that is in the product creates, uh, dizziness. It creates, uh, vomiting and diarrhea, and it sedates you. That's what these kids presented with, and yet doctors in the emergency room in Walker County all said this was kratom. This is the hysteria that's been created around some of the narratives that you've heard, and it has to stop. These are the culprits. [1:03:13](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3793s) I'm, I'm gonna interrupt you just a second. [1:03:14](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3794s) Yeah. [1:03:14](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3794s) May, if I can ask another question. Um, but you're not a doctor. [1:03:19](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3799s) No, sir. [1:03:21](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3801s) No further questions. [1:03:25](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3805s) Okay. Let's see. Number six. Representative Panitch. [1:03:28](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3808s) Thank you. Are there contraindidi- indications between the natural leaf? Like, is there... Should I, if I'm on high bless- blood pressure medicine, should I be, can I use the leaf without any problems? [1:03:41](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3821s) So under federal law- Any supplement, uh, has to have a reasonable basis for safety under conditions of use. That's the threshold for entering the marketplace. What the FDA does under their, their adverse event reporting system is they take every adverse event, including if someone is taking kratom with, that has hypertension, high blood pressure, they analyze whether there is a cluster of adverse events or deaths that are associated with kratom. And then if so, they will order the, um, the manufacturer of the, uh, of the blood pressure drug to put a black box warning on their product that says, "Do not take this product with kratom." That's what happens. [1:04:22](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3862s) So there's been no such edict from the FDA after extensively studying this. Is it possible that someone would have a contraindication? Yes. [1:04:30](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3870s) Mm-hmm. [1:04:30](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3870s) And if that happens, it sh- it will get reported to the FDA, and they will evaluate it for whether there needs to be a black box warning. But the warnings that we e- that we advocate for, pregnant women should not use kratom. Breastfeeding mothers should not use kratom. [1:04:45](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3885s) Mm-hmm. [1:04:45](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3885s) We think people that take and look at the label will be able to see, including the one Mr. Wethington showed you, which had all kinds of advisories. You know, consult with your doctor. These are all appropriate. We're fine with that. But you don't need, you don't mandate it, and you don't put it behind a pharmacy counter like you do for cold medicines that were, they are over-the-counter medications that previously were drugs, and now they have OTC status. That's appropriate for a pharmacy. This is a dietary supplement. Go to your GNC store. Go to your, go to your di- your dietary supplement store. [1:05:17](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3917s) Mm-hmm. [1:05:17](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3917s) And they, the, the people can find all that they want about kratom from the labeling, which is where they, they should actually get that advice. [1:05:23](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3923s) Thank you. [1:05:26](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3926s) Representative Neal. [1:05:27](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3927s) Thank you to the chair. I just wanted to, uh, thank you for returning again. I want to direct my questions or my, uh, remarks, uh, to my, uh, colleague across from me. Um, luckily, um, you were not here to engage in the, all the fun times we had with kratom a little while back. Um, and during that time, some of the things that you're asking for, all the documentation and what have you, that was provided to us, um, in, in vast amounts. Um, and it has been presented to us, like, so for instance, like vitamins, uh, weight loss drugs, those types of things are not approved by the FDA. [1:05:58](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3958s) And because during those times, during those debates when we were, we were talking about the fact that there has not been enough research to determine one way or another, that's why we decided to regulate, um, versus do a prohibition in the past years. So this now is taken to another level, and probably why you don't see all the documents now is everyone knows that this committee is more than familiar. We might be experts now on kratom. Um, so that's why you don't see that here today. [1:06:25](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=3985s) Mr. Chairman, could I clarify one thing? Uh, the, the federal government requires an, what's called an eight factor analysis to evaluate whether any substance should be subject to Schedule 1. The FDA has on two occasions submitted to the DEA that mitrag- mitragynine, which is the principal alkaloid, should be a Schedule 1 drug, once in 2016 and again in 2018. Both times, the evaluation of those eight factors, which is the standard, said it's not subject to that kind of regulation. [1:06:56](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4016s) It is not a Schedule 1 drug, and the World Health Organization, through the UN Commission on Narcotic Drugs, came to the same conclusion with 12 independent experts. So there's ample evidence that is done by doctors, by researchers, by specialists around the world and the United States. This is not, it is not appropriate for scheduling, and you adopt here in Georgia the same standard. If there, if there were credible evidence that this should be scheduled, it would be done by your board of pharmacy or by your health department using the appropriate standard for those eight factors. [1:07:28](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4048s) Okay. See no other questions. All right. Next, I have, uh, Patrick Phillips. [1:07:39](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4059s) Excuse me, Doc- th- that's doctor, correct? [1:07:42](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4062s) Uh, I'm a doctor of pharmacy. [1:07:44](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4064s) Okay. All right. Wanna make sure we got that right. Go ahead. [1:07:48](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4068s) Appreciate it. Um, I've previously, uh, testified on behalf of the Georgia Poison Center. I'm a clinical toxicologist and emergency medicine clinical pharmacist, uh, here in Atlanta, and the Georgia Poison Center, um, serves the good people of the entire state of Georgia. And, uh, I'm happy to an- answer any questions about kratom toxicity, um, what it affects, how it works. Um, but I just wanna reiterate some of the data that we have, um, from our state. So since 2021, um, over 500 cases have, of kratom toxicity have been reported to us, and that represents a 66% increase between 2022 to 2025 alone. [1:08:29](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4109s) Um, uh, the, nationally, the number of sp- uh, exposures resulting in serious medical outcome requiring extensive medical intervention has been increasing about 5% year over year. Um, there's been a 400%, uh, increase between 2024 and 2025 in pediatric exposures, kids under five, uh, to kratom and kratom products. Um, and these numbers include reports of major, uh, medical effects and documented, uh, fatalities. [1:09:01](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4141s) Um, and just to speak from a pharmacist's perspective, um, I definitely agree with the bill. A ph- a pharmacist is in a unique position to, uh, educate patients, uh, on potential drug interactions or interactions with, um, any conditions that they currently have. Um, so, you know, I fully support, and the Georgia Poison Center fully supports any way to, uh, decrease the number of exposures that we're seeing in Georgians, and then increasing the safety for people who still choose, uh, to use the substance. [1:09:34](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4174s) And, um, I would also like to suggest an amendment, um, to add to the labeling requirements the number for, um, the poison center. Uh, 1-800-222-1222 is the national number. If you are in Georgia, it will get routed to the Georgia Poison Center, and we are trained experts in how to manage, uh, kratom toxicity and kratom withdrawal. Thank you. And I'll, happy to answer any questions that the committee has. [1:09:59](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4199s) You got a few. Uh, Representative Roberts. [1:10:02](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4202s) Thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, you referenced kratom as a substance and a drug during your testimony. Um, and then I just previously heard, and I was on the committee when we heard this last time, so I've heard days of testimony on this. I just wanna, I wanna take what you said because I think we all can agree the, the manufactured version, not the pure leaf, are two different... Well, maybe they're not to you, but we can all agree that the, the part that changes it from the pure leaf is bad. [1:10:36](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4236s) Like, we, we're all in agreement on that, that that's extremely dangerous. What I wanna understand is in those cases that you cited that are increasing over time, is there any way to, to know whether it was pure leaf or the other bad stuff? [1:10:53](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4253s) Um, so it's very difficult to get that granular, um, with the data. I think passing this bill would certainly greatly increase, um, the quality of the data given that we could electronically track, um, the different products being sold. And, um, by doing that, we could create codes to, to individually track exposures to those certain products if they are reported to the poison center at least. Um, or if you wanted to query that data, I think it's through GBI who would be tracking this just, just to see what is being sold. [1:11:26](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4286s) Um, that would allow for more granular data. Currently as it stands, um, y- you know, A- APCU, which is the overarching body for poison centers, um, they're the ones who create, uh, product codes. And because, uh, as you can imagine nationally, so many different products are popping up a- almost on a daily basis, it's so hard to track with granularity exactly what products these, uh, patients are being e- exposed to. Um, but we do, we do right now, um, have a, a generic code just for, um, kratom that, you know, unfortunately doesn't include... [1:12:03](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4323s) Well, we have an emerging code for 7-Hydroxytryptamine. Uh, obviously that's, that's, uh, seems to be the biggest threat currently. [1:12:11](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4331s) Mm-hmm. [1:12:12](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4332s) Um, but, you know, on a weekly to monthly basis, we try to update these codes and try to get more granular with the data. It's just very difficult, um, 'cause it's very self-reporting right now. [1:12:22](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4342s) May I have a follow-up? [1:12:24](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4344s) Yeah. [1:12:24](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4344s) Um, so the previous witness said that it is a natural supplement, not categorized as a drug. Um, are there any other natural supplements that at the poison control you see have this level of impact on people's... [1:12:44](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4364s) Um, [1:12:47](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4367s) off the top of my head, not with this breadth, uh, uh, of something that's marketed as a "natural substance," um, or like a, a supplement, um, causing this much profound toxicity and, and widespread. Certainly there are supplements available, you know, if you go down to GNC that in, in very large amounts, we know they can cause certain toxicities. You know, things that'll affect the liver, things that'll affect the kidneys. Um, but th- those are just so few and far between because, um, people, you know, aren't necessarily using them, certainly for recreational purposes, um, and are, are using them in larger and larger amounts. [1:13:29](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4409s) Um, w- you know, which is kind of typical of people using kratom. They, you know, you can build a tolerance to it and so you tend to- [1:13:37](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4417s) Ah [1:13:37](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4417s) ... require more and more, you know, as time goes on, but- [1:13:40](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4420s) Gotcha [1:13:40](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4420s) ... um, I would say this one's by far the most common, you know, if you wanna say supplement, um, that we would get called on. [1:13:48](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4428s) All right. Thank you. Representative Fincher? [1:13:51](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4431s) You mentioned, uh, pediatric exposures. [1:13:54](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4434s) Yes, sir. [1:13:54](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4434s) And that's a rising trend? [1:13:56](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4436s) Uh, 400% in the last year alone, yes. [1:13:59](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4439s) And what kind of injuries that are related to that, uh, pediatric exposure? [1:14:05](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4445s) Um, most commonly, um, depressed mental status to the point of coma. Um, we've seen seizures, um, children getting intubated. Um, we have not, um, had a reported pediatric death, um, thank goodness, yet. Um, I would have to look into the literature if there, uh, you know, the, specific to the pediatric population, um, how many, um, unfortunate fatalities we've had. [1:14:34](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4474s) Mm-hmm. [1:14:34](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4474s) But, um, these are, you know, we definitely get reported serious outcomes. [1:14:38](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4478s) Madam Chair, one, uh, follow-up. [1:14:40](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4480s) Yes. [1:14:42](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4482s) You have no way of knowing if that was leaf or whether that was the more, uh, derivative form? [1:14:49](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4489s) Um, as it, as it stands right now, sir, no. Um, you know, a- again, uh, unfortunately right now it's self-reported, the, the product, um, that was, that, you know, the certain patient would be exposed to. Um, and even, you know, even if they say, "Oh, this is, you know, XYZ product," that says it's, you know, X milligrams, I mean, we really can't be certain. It's, there's no quality control measures mandated. Um, w- and if mandated, uh, I'm unaware of, um- [1:15:21](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4521s) One follow-up [1:15:22](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4522s) ... strict enforcement of that. [1:15:23](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4523s) One follow-up on that. I, I guess I want to ask you an opinion. You being a doctor of pharmacy, I think you'd be an expert of, of sorts in this area. And, uh, you're s- you're agreeing that the substitute is much better than wide open use. But that's what you're telling us in your testimony. If the substitute were in place, that would be much better than what we're experiencing now with wide open use at, at the gas station. [1:15:50](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4550s) Uh, yeah. W- uh, 100%. Um- [1:15:53](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4553s) The, the question I want to ask, though, if I might follow up with that. If you were gonna make a recommendation, period- Would you s- r- r- prefer to r- recommend absolutely no kratom or to do something different to make it possible to be available where it could be exposed, where children could be exposed to it? [1:16:14](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4574s) Uh, I, I previously testified in support of a full ban. Um, and you know, I, I still agree with that. Um, but you know, if, if that, uh, is obviously not supported, I think this is a, a, a good next best step. Um, you know, the, the toxicity aside, uh, you know, the, the kratom can act synergistically with multiple, multiple medications that patients are on. Um, so just from a clinical ex- effect perspective, um, you know, for example, if a patient has ADHD and they're on a stimulant to treat that ADHD, um, kratom at low doses has stimulatory properties. [1:16:55](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4615s) Those could act synergistically, um, and, you know, cause tachycardia, hypertension, et cetera, et cetera. Um, but also it, it, uh, interacts with many cytochrome P450 enzymes in the liver, which is responsible for the majority of biotransformation and metabolism of many, many, many, many drugs. Um, and so patients could be on something completely unrelated and, you know, with kratom in- inhibiting certain P450 enzymes could, you know, cause toxic concentrations of prescription medications that they are already on. [1:17:26](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4646s) Thank you. [1:17:27](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4647s) Thank you. That's all the questions. Thank you. Next is, um, Peter Goffner. [1:17:35](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4655s) Goffner? [1:17:37](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4657s) Uh, he hasn't given permission to. [1:17:39](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4659s) Okay. All right. [1:17:44](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4664s) Squeeze in this little behind you here. [1:17:45](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4665s) Yeah, sure. Thanks. Go ahead. Hey, everyone. Um, hang on, let me get to my notes. Uh, my name is Peter Goffner, and my husband passed away from kratom. Um, he unknowingly mixed it with a Monster energy drink. Um, a- and it was sold to him under a false pretense of a natural product. And when I sit up here and I listen to, um, them talk about it, say natural product, and, and I hear all the rest of the testimony, I'm in agreement. If we have to land that it's behind, um, the pharmaceutical, um, line, then I can land there. [1:18:21](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4701s) But I truly believe a full ban needs to be put in place before, um, we go any further. Because if people are dying from something, then we need to take a moment and d- uh, why are they dying? Look at why they're dying. Go Google it. Go, go ChatGPT it. They will, it will tell you. The ... I'm gonna tell you this really quick. When he was asked in the deposition, the people that sold it to him, okay? They asked him, um, "Why did you, um ... When, when you, when Mr. [1:18:52](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4732s) Goffner bought the product, did you, di- did he ask you if there was any, um, indication of, of any, um, um, mixing with it?" And he said, "Oh, no, he didn't ask." And he said, "Well, he didn't ask? So you're on a don't ask, don't tell basis?" He said, "Well, yeah, we're on a don't ask, don't tell basis." That's what the owner of the CBD store said to him, "Don't ask, don't tell." They do not even know. The p- people that are running these stores do not know how to ... The, the convenience stores, they don't know. In fact, I did a study. [1:19:23](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4763s) I went in there and I put a kratom and a, um, and a Monster drink up on the counter. And she said she was ready to check me out. And I said, "You're ready to check me out?" And I said, "Do you know what that is?" And she said, "I don't even know what that is." I told her what happened. She said, "Oh, my gosh, I don't even wanna sell you that." So the people running the gas station did not... Knowledge is power, ladies and gentlemen. Knowledge is power. And if we don't know the knowledge behind what's going on with kratom, then we can't stop. We can't save people. Please help us save kids. [1:19:54](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4794s) Um, please stop believing ... My daughter is fatherless because of kratom. And if kratom, then take kratom out of, kr- take kratom out of certain things. Kratom is the bottom line of what we're talking about here today. And if kratom wasn't in these products, I wouldn't be here today. Thank you. [1:20:10](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4810s) Thank you. I think you have one question. Uh, Representative Holly. [1:20:14](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4814s) Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Um, thank you for loving your husband enough to at least let us know- [1:20:20](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4820s) Thank you [1:20:20](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4820s) ... um, that his life, um, was certainly of value. Um, my question, as you said, knowledge is power. [1:20:26](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4826s) Mm-hmm. [1:20:26](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4826s) Um, do you believe that, uh, had your husband been able to see a, um, some type of disclaimer on the product- [1:20:35](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4835s) Yes [1:20:35](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4835s) ... knowing that, uh, of its effects, um, that, um, would have that been helpful, um, to him in terms of making the right decision as to whether to use it or not to use it? [1:20:47](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4847s) I truly believe. Thank you for your question as well. I truly believe that because I think, um, back in 2020, there was not anything like that on the labeling. [1:20:58](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4858s) Mm-hmm. [1:20:59](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4859s) And so, um, w- with that said, I think a lot of people, if they were to read certain things, um, again, knowledge is power. If you know what's in it and what could possibly happen, um, and if I could take it a step further, you can't even mix certain kratoms with kratom. You can't even mix, uh, one kratom with another kratom. It's lethal. And it's, and again, there's a g- a lady that was sitting at a, at a, at a Starbucks coffee shop or a coffee shop, and her son or daughter put the kratom in a tea, which is a stimulant. [1:21:33](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4893s) And they, and 20 minutes later it goes seizure, stroke, and cardiac arrest. And so to tell my daughter her dad was not coming home because negligence of a store that didn't have knowledge, and they said they asked the store owner, and to your, to your point, they, in the deposition, my attorneys asked the store owner, "How did you learn about kratom? How did you learn to sell it?" His response was, "Oh, I was sitting at a stoplight and said, saw a sign that says, um, 'Sell kratom, make money.'" [1:22:10](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4930s) Thank you. I don't have any more questions. Thank you for your testimony. Thank you everyone. Have a good day. Next is Jake Damian. Damian. [1:22:27](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4947s) Thank you. I'm, uh- [1:22:28](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4948s) Good morning [1:22:29](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4949s) ... a little nervous so I prepared a statement, uh, ahead of time. [1:22:31](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4951s) Sure. [1:22:32](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4952s) Good morning, Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to speak today. My name is Jake. I'm a lifelong resident of Georgia, Georgia Tech graduate, and a Falcons fan. I'm here to respectfully ask that you reconsider the current language of HB 968 as it relates to kratom. As written, this bill would schedule all kratom products, including natural, normal strength kratom leaf. I urge you to amend the bill so that it specif- specifically addresses only high-strength 7OH products, and not traditional leaf products in their natural form. I've been taking natural kratom leaf for nine years, and it has, uh, had a profoundly positive impact on my life. [1:23:06](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=4986s) Alcoholism runs in my family. And in my 20s, alcohol use was really negatively impacting my life. Kratom, in a, in combination with some good counseling, helped me to stop drinking altogether, and I'm proud to say I have not drank alcohol in eight years and am employed as an aerospace engineer here in Georgia. Natural kratom leaf is a tremendous benefit to my life. My mother could not be here today. She doesn't live very close, but asked me to include a brief statement about her as well. She has had chronic back pain for years. She uses natural kratom leaf to help her manage her pain naturally, without having to turn back to the pain pills from her doctor, and she considers herself much better off for it. [1:23:42](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5022s) An outright ban would directly harm her and many others who rely on this healthy, natural option to maintain their quality of life. Natural kratom leaf is very mild and beneficial, and in my opinion, not harming anyone. It has been sold in Georgia for 15 years without issues. It's the new high-concentration extracts that are being sold that are the issue. I support regulation, I support age restrictions, labeling requirements, and the specifically addressing high-potency extracts, but banning or restricting natural, normal strength kratom leaf alongside concentrated ex- extracts would really harm many responsible adults across Georgia, like me and my mother, and classifying natural kratom leaf as a Schedule 1 drug would have an even larger negative impact. [1:24:19](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5059s) I ask that the committee please consider amending this bill so it focuses only on high-strength extracts above a certain concentration of so- 7OH or modified, uh, or just, or voting no to the bill altogether. Thank you for your time, your service to our state, and for considering my perspective. [1:24:36](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5076s) Thank you. Um, you have one question, Chairman Crowe. [1:24:39](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5079s) Thank you. Over here. Hey. Thank you for being here. Um, where do you get your natural- [1:24:47](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5087s) Online [1:24:48](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5088s) ... kra- okay. And how are you able to verify the, the, that it is natural and that it's not, uh, containing other things or what I mean, what- [1:24:58](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5098s) Well, a- the natural kratom itself- [1:24:59](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5099s) I, I'm curious as to where, where your confidence come from in the product. And I'm just trying to... I, I, four or two years ago, I didn't even know this stuff existed, and now I've heard from a fellow from a society, so, you know. [1:25:11](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5111s) So, so natural kratom leaf is, is, it's like a p- it's a powder and it's, it's very mild. The only thing that really causes problems are these really high-strength, concentrated extracts that they're making, which I perfectly agree should be banned. But the k- but in its natural form, it's, it's very mi- it's hard to take enough to a- you know, to actually... I mean, you'd have to take an insane amount. So, granted, I have tried different online places. Some is better than others. Uh, part of it has come with experience. [1:25:42](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5142s) I think better labeling requirements would help, um, help with that, and testing and things like that. But, um, look, as long as I can still order natural kratom online, um, without a bunch of hoops to jump through- [1:25:55](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5155s) Yeah [1:25:56](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5156s) ... I, I'll be o- I'll be happy. [1:25:57](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5157s) Okay. Thank you. Yeah, that, that's my concern is just the, the, the quality and consistency of, of what, uh, what folks are getting, I think is a big problem. So thank you. [1:26:08](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5168s) Understood. [1:26:08](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5168s) Appreciate it. [1:26:08](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5168s) Thank you. [1:26:09](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5169s) Thank you. Um, you actually have one more question, uh, Representative Holly. [1:26:13](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5173s) Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Um, uh, thank you for your personal testimony. This is, um, as you can see, it's, it's, it's a tough issue. Took one life and preserved another. Um, you're here not only on your own accord. You said there's others, uh, that also have taken, um, the amount that you've taken who are- [1:26:33](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5193s) My mother. [1:26:34](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5194s) Your mother has. [1:26:35](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5195s) Mm-hmm. [1:26:35](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5195s) Okay. And, um, and so, and I think you did say within your testimony that, um, if it had proper labeling, um, that there is an exorbitant amount, or that it, from what you've known, that there's, um, if you're taking an exorbitant amount beyond what you have normally taken, that you've seen or, or can you attest to there being some harsh effects? [1:26:59](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5219s) I wouldn't say harsh effects. It's just you'll fall, you know, get tired and fall asleep. I've never had a negative reaction from taking kratom neg- uh, natural kratom leaf, but it, the extracts are obvious. It's, they're, the, the crazy extracts that are being sold now are, they're not the same thing. They're y- it's, it's cl- clear- totally different. Um- [1:27:17](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5237s) What makes it most obvious? 'Cause I think, you know- [1:27:20](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5240s) It's, like, a thousand times stronger and- [1:27:23](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5243s) But do you know that basi- since you don't know that based upon ingesting it, is that something that- [1:27:27](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5247s) I've tried w- I've tried one or two, some of the e- extracts once or twice, and I've, they aren't for, they weren't for me. [1:27:33](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5253s) Gotcha. Okay. All right, thank you. [1:27:35](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5255s) All right. Thank you. Thank you for coming. [1:27:37](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5257s) Thank you. [1:27:38](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5258s) Next is, uh, Michelle Ross. [1:27:57](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5277s) Okay. Thank you, Chairman and members of the committee. My name is Dr. Michelle Ross. I am an addiction scientist and one of the leading researchers on kratom and 7OH in the country, um, and author of the book, uh, Kratom as Medicine. I strongly oppose HB 968 and any, um, amendments that would criminalize 7OH. Um, uh- ... in Georgia. Um, so I wanna clear up some things here. Um, one, uh, every single kratom consumer has 7OH in their body. [1:28:28](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5308s) It's not a crazy novel synthetic opioid. It is actually found in the kratom leaf. And again, 24% of the mitragynine in kratom, uh, is, uh, is turned into 7OH in the body, so it's a metabolite. So all the, the kratom consumers, which is 7% of Americans, are actually using kratom. It's actually very widespread. Um, there's over 660,000 p- um, residents of Georgia using kratom, so it's a big population. Um, we're not seeing a crisis. When you look at the, the poison control d- Um, when you look at the poison control data, um, you actually see that only .06% of poison control calls involve kratom. [1:29:11](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5351s) Um, there are zero deaths attributed to 7OH, uh, in the United States. Um, Mack Dowd unfortunately told you some misinformation. Uh, the United States government also declined to schedule 7OH in 2016 and 2019. While they did recommend it being scheduled, it is based on some false information. And rec- recommending it does not mean it actually be scheduled. It has to go through the process. And again, twice it was declined. Um, it may be declined again this third time. Um, I wanna present just really quickly some research- [1:29:43](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5383s) Doctor, doctor, I've, I've got to enforce this, uh, real quick, but I do have a question. Maybe this will help- [1:29:49](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5389s) I'm sorry. Why did you let some of the other experts talk for so long and I can't, I can't even talk? [1:29:55](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5395s) I, I have, I have- [1:29:56](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5396s) I'm sorry. That seems not right [1:29:58](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5398s) ... We'll, we'll get through questions- [1:29:59](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5399s) Okay. Okay. Thank you [1:30:01](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5401s) ... as will hopefully, uh, elicit what you're trying to get through. And just so you know, I have a rules committee meeting which members of this committee have to be at at 11:00. If I could give you until midnight, I would, I, I assure you that. So, uh, as far as the research, I, the chair had a question. There, there's been a lot of research presented over the last, oh gosh, going on three years now, uh, to members of the committee. My question is this, a- and what you've seen as far as the federal government and what they have done. [1:30:35](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5435s) Have you seen the federal government schedule just the sc- synthetics using this chemical composition of the leaf, or have they also and/or banned the leaf as well as the synthetics? [1:30:52](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5452s) So the FDA has not approved either kratom leaf or 7OH. It, it also has not, um, scheduled either of those substances. [1:31:01](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5461s) Okay. What about n- uh, none, none of the synthetics? [1:31:05](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5465s) Um, again, I'm gonna get to disagree that it's synthetic, but they have not scheduled, uh, 7OH. [1:31:10](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5470s) Okay. All right. Uh, let's see. Chairman Crowe. [1:31:15](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5475s) Thank you. Um, [1:31:19](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5479s) you talked about researching this and, and you've obviously spent a lot of time. What is your area of practice? What type of doctor are you? What do you, what do you do? [1:31:29](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5489s) Yeah. So I'm a neuroscientist who specializes in addiction, and for the last 14 years, I've helped chronic pain patients, um, and worked as a harm reductionist, helping them understand how to use, uh, kratom for chronic pain, um, and, um, minimize, uh, risk with interactions, uh, with other medications, et cetera. Um, again, because this isn't a, a drug, this is not necessarily, you know, regulated by pharmacists yet. Um, obviously I agree that this should probably be under the purview of pharmacists. [1:32:01](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5521s) I believe that 7OH in addition to kratom products should be, you know, dealt with with pharmacists rather than ... You know, I, I was doing this because no one else was actually helping the patients and I wanted to reduce harm. [1:32:12](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5532s) Okay. And so you're a, a PhD? [1:32:15](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5535s) I am a PhD, yes. [1:32:16](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5536s) And a- [1:32:16](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5536s) And I, I have some other certifications, yes [1:32:18](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5538s) ... but not a, not a medical doctor? [1:32:19](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5539s) No, I'm not a medical doctor. [1:32:21](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5541s) Okay. Okay. All right. Thank you. [1:32:23](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5543s) Mm-hmm. [1:32:25](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5545s) Uh, any other questions from members of the committee? All right, seeing none. Thank you and- [1:32:33](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5553s) Okay. Thank you [1:32:34](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5554s) ... we appreciate your time here today. All right. I don't know if I have anybody else signed up that we haven't got to, but I think, uh, just for clarification, uh, Mr. Robert Smith with PACT to explain some of the drafting changes. [1:33:02](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5582s) I'm not gonna miss this chair. I'm not gonna miss this room. I'm not gonna miss this desk. Um- And I wish Representative, uh, Roberts was here because to Representative Neal's point, 2018's when you started this. There were two study committees in 2018, and this, uh, kratom has been an issue for that long and there's been all sorts of different directions. I wanna thank, uh, Representative Townsend. Um, worked with him on language, and I don't ha- see any of the problems that I've discussed with you previously in this, in this current language, and I'll stand for any questions. [1:33:40](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5620s) So this substitute has alleviated the concern of us abrogating our authority under the 10th Amendment to the federal government? [1:33:49](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5629s) Um- [1:33:51](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5631s) A- as far as just tying it to whatever the feds decide, then we automatically implement as far as- [1:33:57](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5637s) Yes. [1:33:58](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5638s) Okay. All right. So we did away with that. Okay. [1:34:00](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5640s) Yes, sir. [1:34:00](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5640s) All right. Uh, number 14. Representative Fincher. [1:34:05](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5645s) The, you heard the testimony about having poison, this warnings on there? [1:34:12](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5652s) Yes, sir. [1:34:12](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5652s) Uh, do you agree that should be on any, any of the product? [1:34:16](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5656s) Personally? Um, as a citizen of the state of Georgia, I was moved by that testimony [1:34:25](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5665s) But I'm also not a legislator. [1:34:27](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5667s) Thank you. [1:34:28](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5668s) I know how people like to sit here and talk about they're not a lawyer. I, you know, I'm not a legislator. [1:34:32](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5672s) You have a juris doctorate, not a medical doctorate, correct? [1:34:36](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5676s) Uh, we c- and as, um, the chairman knows, we call ourselves doctor, doctors for the period of time where you get your cap and gown, to the moment you get your diploma, and then afterwards, never again. [1:34:46](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5686s) I do indeed remember that. [1:34:48](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5688s) My mother, my mother, who's a PhD, reminds me that she's the real doctor in the family. [1:34:54](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5694s) Understood. All right, number 11. [1:34:58](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5698s) Robert. [1:34:58](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5698s) Um, I won't ask you a question on your opinion on policy, 'cause I know that's, as you like to refer, that's for us to decide, right? [1:35:04](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5704s) Yes, sir. [1:35:04](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5704s) Um, but just, uh, what we're doing now, I guess it looks like in section two we're adding all of the derivatives or, uh, synthetics or any of these other, anything that's not natural kratom leaf, we're putting it under Schedule 1, and then the natural kratom leaf we're putting behind the counter, so to speak, having the pharmacist involved in it, right? [1:35:25](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5725s) That'll be consistent also with what you're doing with, um, the problems we're, um, dealing with with hemp and marijuana, um, and with what y'all did with the benzodiazepines. [1:35:34](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5734s) Okay. [1:35:34](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5734s) Then we started running into problems with synthetics. Um, there are some very, very brilliant people who have decided to, rather than follow the law, find ways around the law, as you are aware from your previous life as well, sir. [1:35:47](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5747s) Yes, sir. Thank you. [1:35:54](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5754s) See no other questions. Thank you, Robert. [1:35:55](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5755s) Thank you. [1:35:56](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5756s) All right. You were wanting to testify to this. Didn't wanna leave you out. I'll get to you once we finish up. [1:36:04](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5764s) Okay. [1:36:06](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5766s) Thank you. [1:36:08](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5768s) Is it on? [1:36:10](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5770s) Yeah. [1:36:11](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5771s) Go ahead when ready. [1:36:12](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5772s) Okay. [1:36:16](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5776s) So since I know I have a very short time, and I'm here as a kratom consumer as well as a botanical bar owner. So when we talk about kratom, we also talk about COAs. That's where you were talking about, you know, checking it, verifying, doing lab results. I have all of our labs right here with me if anybody would like to look at them, because kratom, Mitragyna speciosa, is not the problem. It's the synthetic 70 problem. That's the problem. Um, our labs are tested. [1:36:47](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5807s) They're tested when they come into the United States to verify with the FDA, then we have to test them once we brew them to sell them. They come in from Indonesia, it's like 0.01. With 70, by the time we're brewed, which is just with water and kratom leaf, it actually comes back nothing shown at all, and I have all the documentation here to prove from our labs out of, um, California. [1:37:17](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5837s) Um, but again, I'm here as a consumer and as a bar owner. Um, the fatalities noted, the products generally are illicit. There's other illicit products in there. I'm from Rome, Flori- or Rome, Georgia, Floyd County, and they were actually given a notice, sorry, I'm nervous. Given the notice about the kratom ban bill, and they were for it. It made headlines in the newspaper. We reached out, spoke with the city manager, explained the difference between 70 and natural kratom. [1:37:52](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5872s) He had no idea of the difference. We- [1:37:55](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5875s) And r- real quick, hopefully we can elicit the rest of this through testimony. Uh, w- when you say he didn't realize, who do you mean? [1:38:04](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5884s) Sammy Rich. He is the city manager of Rome, Floyd County. [1:38:08](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5888s) And- [1:38:08](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5888s) And he didn't know anything about, you know, 70. He knew about apparently the fatalities. That's what he was presented with, the bill and all the fatalities coming behind 70. Which again, as a botanical bar owner and a consumer, I'm anti these synthetic drugs. They're strong, they're dangerous. We do not sell them in our bar at all. We're a zero alcohol bar, so we serve kratom. We also serve kra- um, kava. Kava is a part of the black pepper family. And then we serve botanical mocktails. [1:38:40](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5920s) You probably see them all over social media. Three Spirits, they're adaptogenics, but they're all different drinks. For those that still want that social life, kind of the bar experience, but don't wanna go to the alcohol establishments or they're no longer drinking, they come into our establishment. It's kinda like a big community, a big fellowship. Um, when Alabama decided to ban the kratom itself, since banning, it's been a bigger problem because of the black market. [1:39:11](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5951s) They've had more arrests, and again, seeking the black market. From 2022 to 2024, uh, between 27 and 29 million people ages 12 and over suffer alcohol use disabilities and disorder. [1:39:29](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5969s) Okay. [1:39:30](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5970s) Um- [1:39:30](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5970s) And so was anybody prosecuted in Floyd County? [1:39:35](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=5975s) No, not to my knowledge. We've been here four years, and in four years we have not had any issues come out of our establishment. We've never had the police called because there was a fight, there were weapons, none of that. Um, we did have recently have pl- ha- call the police out. We have a Switch game system. Somebody came in and stole controllers, and they even noted that. "We're never in here. This is a really nice place." You know, they check it out because it looks like a bar, but without the alcohol. [1:40:07](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6007s) There's no alcohol in there. [1:40:08](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6008s) Okay. I see no other questions from the committee. Uh, thank you for- [1:40:14](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6014s) Okay [1:40:14](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6014s) ... coming down to testify today. All right, sir. Come on up once. [1:40:26](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6026s) Good morning. I'll try to make this brief. My name's Gary Clemons. I am a certified natural health practitioner. I do use kratom personally as needed, and I do advise others how to safely use kratom. Um, if you wanna ban OH, I will support that in any way you ask me to, to ban that, but the natural leaf powder should be something that should be incorporated on an individual basis. If, uh, the pharmacies, if you put it behind the pharmacies, you're gonna create a monopoly on kratom, and people won't have access to it like they have it right now. [1:40:59](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6059s) He did say he'll support it online, but eventually, I don't know what the, the lobbying is for pharmacies in the state of Georgia, but I imagine they're pretty pow- powerful, and eventually they'll whittle away the ability to get it online. You'll drive up the price of kratom. It'll be inaccessible to many people that are getting it right now. Does anybody in this room know what the price of kratom comes, is per kg? Anybody? You do. Okay. So you understand it's already high. Okay. It'll get out of, it'll get out of control if the pharmacies get it a- and exclusively have it. [1:41:30](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6090s) Uh, if you want to put OH behind the pharmacy, great. Go right ahead. I advise people that are kind of on the, on the fence about kratom, go ask your physician. Every physician knows about kratom nowadays because of what Johns Hopkins has done and what University of Florida's doing. They're both involved in kratom research. It's very accessible online. So should the state of Georgia be labeling kratom all as one? No, you shouldn't be. But the OH, yes. The synthetics, yes, that's a problem. [1:41:55](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6115s) Okay. [1:41:55](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6115s) And that's adding to, um, you know, the bad name that kratom's getting. Um- [1:41:59](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6119s) You got a question. [1:42:00](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6120s) Sure. Go right ahead. [1:42:01](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6121s) Number three, Representative Holley. [1:42:03](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6123s) Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, thank you, sir, for giving your very, um, impassioned testimony here. Um, I was curious, um, because this is dealing with the severity of the potential of, of taking it- [1:42:17](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6137s) Mm [1:42:17](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6137s) ... in varying amounts, um, if this law passes, and, uh, and, and it does criminalize, uh, kratom use, do you believe that you will continue, uh, to find that product, to take it, um, in order for your own stability? [1:42:35](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6155s) I can. I can do that right now. That's not a problem for me. Yes, and like she said with Alabama, that's a problem. They're gonna find it any way they can get it. Um, to go back to your, your question about how do you verify that kratom is safe, they're required to test kratom. 15% of the kratom that comes in this country doesn't pass the test. It's too high. So we had, they're, they, they do have those, uh, those guidelines in place right now, and everybody that sells kratom should be under those guidelines. Okay? I don't, we don't have, we don't have, you know, a kratom patrol in Georgia. [1:43:06](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6186s) Maybe we should have one. Maybe sh- we should have, uh, somebody coming to the store, uh, to the gas stations. I don't think it should be in gas stations, but I do think online should be. Uh, I don't think gas stations then is obviously not qualified according to what happened to her husband, which is a tragedy. But I think we have to have somebody that can, you know, spot-check the, you know, who's selling kratom. If they're selling it, you know, right now at the gas station, "Okay, let me see, let me see your labeling. What's your labeling say? Do you have it labeled? Do you have any warnings on it? Do you have any, uh, saying this is adverse effects?" Again, I say that kratom belongs here, the natural leaf. [1:43:41](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6221s) Put it behind the pharmacy counter if you wanna, if they wanna continue with the OH, that's fine. Ask the pharmacist, or consult your doctor. It's an individual choice to use kratom. [1:43:51](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6231s) You got another question here. Chairman Crowe. [1:43:55](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6235s) Thank you. Um, who is it tested by? [1:43:58](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6238s) There, there are labs in the United States that can test kratom when it comes in. And then, and there's a couple warehouses that house the main kratom factories. Most of the kratom from our co- this country comes from, 70 cent- comes from Indonesia. [1:44:09](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6249s) Okay. [1:44:10](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6250s) Okay? [1:44:10](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6250s) Who requires it to be tested? [1:44:12](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6252s) The, we're, we're a KCPA state, correct? [1:44:15](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6255s) The FDA, the FDA requires it. [1:44:15](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6255s) The FDA. [1:44:16](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6256s) Okay. [1:44:16](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6256s) Okay. [1:44:16](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6256s) The FDA requires it, all right. [1:44:17](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6257s) They're required to test that. [1:44:19](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6259s) Mm. [1:44:19](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6259s) If they're gonna sell the kratom, they have to, they, they're, they're gonna sell to the public, they have to have it tested. It has to be labeled. It has to be enforced. Is it being enforced now? Mm, kind of, sort of. [1:44:29](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6269s) Right. I- [1:44:29](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6269s) But like I said, there's nobody in the state of Georgia that's actually following up on the enforcement. [1:44:33](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6273s) Well, and I think that's what we've been trying to work towards, is getting some sort of guardrails and, and getting some sort of handles around this in Georgia. Um, one last question, 'cause I know there's some other folks that may wanna ask a question, or some other folks- [1:44:44](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6284s) Yeah [1:44:44](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6284s) ... that wanna speak, and we've got other things to get to. Um, you'd mentioned you were a certified... [1:44:49](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6289s) Natural health practitioner [1:44:50](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6290s) ... natural health- [1:44:50](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6290s) Yes, I am. [1:44:51](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6291s) Okay. I- in what and by who? [1:44:53](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6293s) Uh, by Trinity School of Medicine in Indiana. [1:44:55](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6295s) Okay. [1:44:55](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6295s) Not School of Medicine. Gr- Gr- Grancy School of Natural Health in, in, in Indiana. I am certified aromatherapist as well through, um, Aromahead. It's an institute that does aromatherapy certification. Uh, I've been using kratom personally for two years now. I only use it as needed, and I think there's a lot of people that use kratom as needed. [1:45:13](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6313s) Mm-hmm. [1:45:14](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6314s) Okay? [1:45:14](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6314s) As, as needed for what? [1:45:16](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6316s) For, well, I have a, a business of 31 years that's now in the twilight. I'm, I've a, a little successful moving company. I go out and for two or three, three hours I am in such pain that I cannot finish the job. So if I take a strain of green kratom, four capsules that I make myself- [1:45:31](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6331s) Mm-hmm [1:45:31](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6331s) ... I can get through that job and I actually don't have any more pain. It relieves it until I get home. And as one individual testimony, it does, it has a very relaxing sedative effect. [1:45:41](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6341s) Okay. Thank you. [1:45:44](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6344s) Okay. Thank you, sir. [1:45:44](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6344s) Thank you. [1:45:47](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6347s) All right. I don't think I have anybody else signed up to testify. Any discussion from members of the committee? [1:45:59](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6359s) All right. Seeing none, what say the committee? [1:46:05](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6365s) Move to pass. [1:46:06](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6366s) Okay. Move to pass and a second. Uh, amendments, uh, Vice Chairman Hong. [1:46:12](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6372s) Got an amendment. Um, as the author had indicated, on line 21 after analogs, comma, insert concentrations, comma. Um, and we'll do the same on line 28, line 35- [1:46:36](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6396s) Line 192. [1:46:45](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6405s) And then, um, I'd like to ... I thought it was a really good testimony for us to go ahead and include the Georgia Poison Center phone number, um, on the label. So on line 222, take out "and", [1:47:05](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6425s) um, and on line 235, insert "9, [1:47:15](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6435s) the Georgia Poison Center phone number." Period. And delete and ... Or I'm sorry, insert "and" on, at the end of 234. [1:47:31](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6451s) Okay. You've heard the Hong amendment. [1:47:38](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6458s) Second. [1:47:39](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6459s) All right. We got a motion and a second on the Hong amendment. Any discussion? Representative Kendrick, is this discussion or- [1:47:44](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6464s) No, there's another amendment. [1:47:45](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6465s) Okay. All right. I'll get back to you. All right. Seeing no further discussion on the Hong amendment, we got a motion and a second. All those in favor of the Hong amendment as proposed say aye. [1:47:54](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6474s) Aye. [1:47:55](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6475s) All those opposed same sign. All right. Representative Kendrick. [1:47:59](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6479s) Thank you. I'd like to offer an amendment. Um, so I know that the federal government is working on some of this, so I want to make sure that we stay in line with what they're gonna do with regards to synthetics. Um, and I agree that the derivatives and s- and synthe- synthetics should be banned, but I have gotten so much testimony from constituents about the benefits of the pure leaf, so I want to preserve access to that. So my amendment is to take, uh, my LC that I gave you all, LC481814S. [1:48:31](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6511s) And I'm not lay counsel, so bear with me as I try to do this. But I essentially want to, um, insert, uh, the language of line 11 through 29 of my amendment, um, on lines 114 and 115 of the actual bill so that the, um, there is an exemption for pure leaf having to be put behind pharmacies. [1:49:14](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6554s) And hopefully that accomplishes- [1:49:16](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6556s) Just repeat that, what you would be inserting in those lines. [1:49:19](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6559s) Um, so on line 114 and 115 of the Townsend amendment, I would be including lines 11 through 29, um, under the definition of kratom or kratom product as it applies to this amendment. And so it would read on line 114, "The kratom or kratom product is", and refer back to lines 11 through 29 of my amendment. [1:49:48](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6588s) Okay. [1:49:49](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6589s) A- and the purpose is to try to still ban the synthetics and the derivatives, but to, to carve out so that they only, so the pure leaf would be exempt from being behind the counter on pharmacies. And I'm not sure if that accomplishes that, but that's the best I could do in the time that I was allotted. [1:50:07](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6607s) Okay. Uh, I see 14. Is that Judge Gunter? [1:50:14](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6614s) That's me, yes. [1:50:14](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6614s) Oh, Representative Fincher. [1:50:16](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6616s) You're saying, you're saying in your amendment that you're gonna take it away from the pharmacists? [1:50:21](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6621s) The pure leaf. The derivatives and everything else being banned remains. [1:50:28](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6628s) Number 11, Chairman Crowe. [1:50:33](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6633s) S- so [1:50:36](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6636s) you're wanting to put the synthetics behind the counter now and take ... 'Cause I think, is that not what this is doing if you insert this there? 'Cause that's the way I'm kind of reading what you're doing. If, and are you deleting everything else, or are you just sticking this in the middle of- [1:50:52](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6652s) In- [1:50:52](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6652s) ... all the words that are here? [1:50:53](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6653s) In the middle of it. So it's my understanding that this bill would ban synthetics and, and, and, and derivatives, but it would put the pure leaf behind the pharmacy. Somebody tell me if I'm wrong, what I'm- [1:51:03](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6663s) That's what the intent is, yes. [1:51:05](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6665s) Right. So what I'm saying is, I would like to take the pure leaf, still ban the derivatives, but I do not want the pure leaf to be behind the pharmacy counter. [1:51:15](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6675s) Okay. I- I was reading this doing something different than that. Um, I was reading this putting this in here, putting those behind the counter, and maybe taking the pure leaf out, so. [1:51:39](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6699s) Okay. So what, what Representative Kendrick is attempting to do is to ban all the synthetic and the derivatives other than the pure leaf and put those behind a pharmacy counter. [1:51:56](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6716s) But what about the pure leaf? Is that- [1:51:59](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6719s) Uh, my understanding is that she does not w- and her amendment proposed to put the pure leaf, the leaf itself behind the counter. That's how I understood her amendment. [1:52:10](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6730s) Can I, can I come back to the [1:52:17](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6737s) mic? [1:52:17](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6737s) If I understood the representative's- [1:52:19](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6739s) Mm-hmm [1:52:19](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6739s) ... amendment and her purpose. [1:52:22](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6742s) I'm sorry. Say that again? [1:52:23](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6743s) If that was the understanding, uh, correct understanding of what you're proposing. [1:52:27](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6747s) Yes. So essentially I want to take the pure leaf from behind the pharmacy counter and still make it accessible. The synthetics and derivatives I'm not touching, whatever the bill does. I'm just taking the pure leaf an- from behind the pharmacy counter. [1:52:41](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6761s) Okay. [1:52:48](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6768s) Uh, any discussion on the amendment? [1:52:52](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6772s) But he can't vote. [1:52:54](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6774s) All right. Now, Representative Townsend. [1:52:56](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6776s) Uh, thank you, uh, Mr. Chair. Basically what that amendment would do, i- it's an unfriendly amendment, basically. Not unfriendly person, great person, but just that amendment. 'Cause basically what that does is put kratom back over the counter at a gas station, and we just ban 708. So there'd be no tracking at the pharmacy or anything else. Uh, it g- it gets the original bill of basically setting up a safer space for people to buy k- natural leaf kratom. I'm not banning natural leaf kratom. [1:53:27](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6807s) It just goes behind the pharmacy counter. So it would be an unfriendly at this point, and this would, this would contradict everything Georgia Poison Control Center said too, and others. [1:53:40](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6820s) All right. Any other further discussion from the members of the committee? Seeing none, I got a move on the Kendrick amendment. [1:53:50](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6830s) Second. [1:53:51](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6831s) And a second. All right. All those in favor of the Kendrick amendment say aye. Aye. All right. All those opposed same sign. No. All right. Amendment fails. All right. Any other amendments? Seeing none, all those in favor of the passage of House Bill 968, LC52-1070A as amended with the Hong amendment, say aye. Aye. All those opposed, same sign. No. [1:54:22](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6862s) All right. The ayes have it. You're on to rules. [1:54:24](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6864s) Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Committee. [1:54:26](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6866s) All right. We have time for one more very, very quickly, uh, before we go to break. And what I will say for planning purposes, we have rules at 11. I believe in lunchtime, and good judges like, uh, Judge Lawton Stephens back there believes in lunchtime too. So what we will do is we will be leaving here just shortly before 11, so members of rules can get out there. [1:54:57](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6897s) Members that are not on rules also have bills to present. So what we will do is we will come back at 12:30 PM. So if you wanna go sit, stretch your legs. If you're not concerned with this next one, go ahead. All right. Next up, I have Representative or Chairwoman Deborah Silcox, House Bill 242. [1:55:24](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6924s) She'll wait. [1:55:24](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6924s) All right. She'll wait. Okay. All right. Next up we have House Bill 496, Representative Clark. [1:55:35](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6935s) I have some quick that will help y'all follow along for me to make it even faster. [1:55:40](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6940s) Okay. All right. And you can go ahead while they're passing that out. [1:55:44](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6944s) Yeah, absolutely. Um, [1:55:49](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6949s) uh, thank you so much, members of the committee. This is my second time presenting this bill, House Bill 496. I am working off of LC number 481429. And, um, for this, um, bill, the, the purpose of the bill is to remove some ambiguity after 2019 when we passed hemp legislation. Um, now, um, it makes it to where the smell of marijuana or cannabis products, um, cannot be distinguished between legal and illegal cannabis. [1:56:28](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=6988s) And so this bill just removes the smell of cannabis products as the sole probable cause, um, for stop, search, or seizure. Um, this again, uh, as I mentioned before, is law that has, um, already passed in Florida and Pennsylvania, which has similar laws when it comes to hemp and medical marijuana that we have here in the State of Georgia. And, um, it's just good policy. It just makes sure that, um, we are, when stops are happening and searches are happening, that it is using objective measures for that. [1:57:04](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7024s) Um, I provided you all with a pa- um, a packet of- [1:57:07](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7027s) Representative, hold on just a second. W- And I hate to interrupt you on this, but- [1:57:11](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7031s) Okay [1:57:11](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7031s) ... uh, there's a LC version- [1:57:15](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7035s) Yes [1:57:15](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7035s) ... noted in the handout. [1:57:18](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7038s) C- Yes, the LC version has been updated. I did not- [1:57:21](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7041s) Okay [1:57:21](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7041s) ... update that on the handout. The new LC version is 481429. [1:57:26](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7046s) Okay. That's the original. [1:57:27](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7047s) Oh, that the original? [1:57:28](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7048s) That's the original. We have a substitute before us of- [1:57:31](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7051s) Yes [1:57:32](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7052s) ... LC481800S. [1:57:34](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7054s) That's probably correct, and th- that means their website is not updated. I just don't have the paper in front of me. [1:57:40](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7060s) Well, probably only counting on horseshoes and hand grenades, uh, need to make sure we got the right one that you want us to consider. [1:57:48](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7068s) Yes. The one that I have, um, considers what you all brought up in the last, um, hearing, which was to remove reasonable suspicion. [1:57:56](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7076s) Which LC number was that? [1:57:59](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7079s) That was the orig- the original one was 1429. [1:58:11](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7091s) Did you, did you not sub- did you not submit a substitute? [1:58:17](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7097s) I did. [1:58:18](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7098s) She said the substitute said reasonable suspicion. Okay, so- [1:58:20](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7100s) Yes, I did [1:58:21](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7101s) ... all right. So we are operating off of LC481800S. [1:58:24](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7104s) Yes. [1:58:25](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7105s) Okay. All right. [1:58:25](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7105s) Which is the substitute. Sorry about that. [1:58:27](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7107s) Okay. [1:58:27](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7107s) My apologies. Um, so, um, since you brought it up, the substitute did address concerns from the committee last, um, hearing about removing reasonable suspicion, so now this is very precise. This only, um, uh, um, refers to probable cause. And again, this is not taking a tool away. It just says it cannot be the sole only, um, evidence for probable cause And so do you have any... [1:58:58](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7138s) If there are any questions, I'm happy to take any. [1:59:01](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7141s) Okay, number five. Representative Neal? [1:59:04](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7144s) Yes. Uh, my apologies. This is my first time seeing the bill, so I'm trying to understand it. So you can still use the smell to, for reasonable suspicion? [1:59:15](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7155s) Yes. [1:59:19](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7159s) No, we can't use the s- [1:59:22](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7162s) If this passes. [1:59:23](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7163s) I'm trying to, I'm trying to understand. If this passes, you cannot use it for reasonable suspicion, is that correct? [1:59:29](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7169s) So we took reasonable suspicion out of the bill. [1:59:33](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7173s) So you can use it for reasonable suspicion. [1:59:35](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7175s) You just cannot use it for probable cause. We specifically remove reasonable suspicion from the bill. [1:59:41](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7181s) So for probable cause, you need the smell and- [1:59:44](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7184s) Plus, yes. It's just a totality. So if you, if there's a smell and you see it and they're doing something and they're w- bobbing and weaving through lanes or something else, that, all of that can be considered for probable cause. But if it's just smell, you cannot use just smell. [2:00:02](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7202s) Well, that's what I'm saying. So the smell is what you use to trigger a search. [2:00:08](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7208s) Yeah, but you cannot do that now. [2:00:10](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7210s) So how do I get... How do I meet your standard of having this plus if I can't initiate the, the search to find the plus? [2:00:20](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7220s) So you can ask questions. I mean, you can look and see what, um, look for objective evidence that's right in front of your face, but you just can't use something that is subjective like smell, since you cannot distinguish the smell of legal versus illegal cannabis products. There's no difference between the smells. They have the same basic chemical structure. [2:00:43](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7243s) But you learn the legality of it once you do the search to see if it's legal or not. [2:00:49](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7249s) But you, again, if it's just smell, that's what I'm saying, if it's just smell, you don't know if that person is engaging in legal or illegal activity. [2:01:01](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7261s) If it's just the smell. [2:01:03](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7263s) But I can't search to find out. [2:01:05](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7265s) You would need to have something else, some other reason other than smell to do a search, yes. [2:01:12](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7272s) Does the search for the smell, the pl- the, the secondary crime, does that have to be a drug-related crime? If I come to your car and I pulled you over for a tag issue and I smell something as well, can I then initiate a search because I got a smell plus a fra- another infraction? [2:01:32](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7292s) So if, and I'm not a law enforcement offer- officer, you have been one. If the original thing, say the tag, would have risen to the level of, yes, you should, can search the car because of that, then sure. Again, you can take in the totality of circumstances. But a, the goal of this is just to say if you smell a hemp product or a cannabis-based product, you don't know if that's legal or illegal. [2:02:02](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7322s) There's no way to tell the difference. There's no difference in the smell. And so because of that, that makes this very ambiguous, and that is why we're saying that should not rise to the level be enough for pos- uh, probable cause on its own. [2:02:18](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7338s) Okay. Thank you. [2:02:23](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7343s) Chairman Crowe. [2:02:25](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7345s) Thank you. Um, and Representative Neal, just to your point, um, on line 16 it says, and if you, if you follow along from the beginning, at 13 says, "A law enforcement officer shall not," and when you get to line 16 it says, "search or request to search a motor vehicle driver or passenger in a motor vehicle based solely on the scent of marijuana, cannabis, or hemp on its own, whether burnt or not." So you're saying if I stop a car, as I've done thousands of times, and while I'm talking to them I smell the odor of what I believe to be burnt marijuana, which now could be hemp or something else, that I can't use that to even request to search the vehicle, to ask for consent to search. [2:03:06](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7386s) That's what your law says. [2:03:07](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7387s) That is the way that it is written. It would not be enough for probable cause. Just the smell alone. [2:03:13](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7393s) I'm not saying probable cause. I'm saying your bill says that I am not allowed to ask for consent to search because I smell that odor coming from the car. On line 16, that's what it says. "I cannot search or request to search a motor vehicle based on that." So, um, that's what it says. Representative Neal, I think that goes to part of your question. It would, we wouldn't even be able to request consent to search based on the smell of that. [2:03:37](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7417s) But that doesn't mean you couldn't ask questions. Like, you couldn't, you could ask them, like- [2:03:41](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7421s) The question I can't ask is for consent to search the motor vehicle, which is the question I would want to ask. [2:03:45](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7425s) Would you not want to ask a question like, "Are you smoking marijuana?" Like, why would the first question be, "Can I search your vehicle?" I'm, I'm asking genuinely. [2:03:58](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7438s) I, I cut my mic on. [2:04:02](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7442s) I, it might not be the first question, but it would ultimately be a question. So if I ask them, "Are you smoking marijuana?" And they say, "No," and I say, "Do you have any marijuana in the vehicle?" They say, "No." Then I say, "Well, would you allow me to search your vehicle to see if there is marijuana in here, because I smell the odor of what I believe to be burnt marijuana emanating from your vehicle," then I would be violating the law. [2:04:27](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7467s) So- [2:04:27](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7467s) And that's not, that's not okay with me. And that's fine. I understand what your purpose is. I just wanted to get clarity and provide some clarity to Representative Neal, so. [2:04:35](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7475s) So would you, would you feel better if the language struck request to search and just stopped at search? [2:04:43](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7483s) I, I would feel- [2:04:43](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7483s) Would that- [2:04:44](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7484s) I would feel better, but I wouldn't feel good. [2:04:48](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7488s) I would love to make you feel better about it if that is- I mean, if that helps me get my bill across, um- [2:04:55](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7495s) Little housekeeping. Little housekeeping. There was no- There was no request to the chair to record or take video before this committee from anyone on any of these bills. You've been warned. You can continue. [2:05:13](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7513s) I, um, uh, I'm, I'm taking any other questions if there are any other from the committee. [2:05:19](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7519s) Number five, Representative Neal. [2:05:22](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7522s) That would make me feel good. So where, what was the, what would be the recommendation if you just- [2:05:26](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7526s) To strike request to search. [2:05:31](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7531s) Oh. Different one. Okay. Line 16, request. Okay. I'm good. Thank you, Chair. [2:05:41](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7541s) Okay. Um, that's all the questions we have at this point. [2:05:57](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7557s) Do I need to do anything else? [2:05:59](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7559s) Uh, no. Just stand by. Um, Omari, I know you've testified before. Anything new to add? [2:06:11](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7571s) I just wanna be clear that because we have something that's legal that smells the same, right? To throw, to make, to allow a subjective- [2:06:21](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7581s) Hold on a second. You're gonna have to come down here. [2:06:23](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7583s) No worries. [2:06:25](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7585s) And, uh, you've got 30 seconds due to the 11:00 deadline. [2:06:30](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7590s) I only need 10. So I just wanna make it clear, um, especially to Ms. Neal, right? Because we have legal cannabis derivative objects that people can smoke, that doesn't mean that you smelling the, uh, burnt odor of marijuana is illegal. It's not an illegal act anymore. So for you to now detain somebody for something that's legal is unconstitutional. It's a violation of their Fourth Amendment rights. [2:06:58](https://vimeo.com/1170297327#t=7618s) Thank you, sir. All right, we're gonna stand in recess until 12:30.