House Small Business Development Committee, March 17, 2026 Video: https://vimeo.com/1172638487 (a timestamp t plays at https://vimeo.com/1172638487#t=s) Page: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-03-17/house-small-business-development This is a machine transcript of the General Assembly's video, made by a speech-recognition model. It is not an official record and can mishear words, names, and numbers. Speakers are not identified. The video is the record: every timestamp links to the moment it plays. [0:22:28] I'd love to learn more about that. [0:22:30] Are you with Ledford? [0:22:32] Yeah, yeah. [0:22:32] Okay. So, so to get in touch with you, go through Jeff, or you got- [0:22:36] Yeah, yeah. [0:22:37] Your own contact- [0:22:37] I don't have a card on me, but I, I'm happy to give it to you or go through Jeff. He can find me. [0:22:41] Sounds good. [0:22:41] It was a pleasure. [0:22:42] My pleasure. [0:22:42] I apologize. I'm Jeff Shaw. [0:22:44] No. Hey, Jeff. Mike Cheokas. [0:22:45] Thank you. I'm probably disrupting, uh- [0:22:47] Nah. [0:22:48] No, no. [0:22:49] No. [0:22:49] You're educating us. [0:22:50] We're a bunch of golden retrievers running around, you know? We- [0:22:53] It's all good. It's all good. Anyway. [0:22:56] All right. [0:22:57] All right. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. I'm gonna call the Small Business Development meeting to order. And, uh, uh, Chairman Tarvin, uh, has... will be doing our devotional. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [0:23:10] Yes, sir. Uh, thank you Mr. Chairman, for having these groups, uh, come in. I, I will have to leave a little early today. I've got another meeting. But rest assured that, uh, this is on video, and we have people watching, and, uh, that have other meetings. But your, your presentation are very important to us, and, and it'll be online, and, uh, the other c- the committee people who... committee members who can't be here will, will watch in. So it's, uh... appreciate you guys, and you're being listened to and watched more than you might think. [0:23:42] Heavenly Father, we thank you for this day, and we pray that, uh, you will look over us, guide us, and direct us in all that we do, and that everything we do, it will be what's best for the s- people of the state of Georgia and pleasing to you. For it's in Christ's name I pray, amen. [0:24:00] Amen. [0:24:01] Amen. I see Chairman Crowe just walked in. I've... We pulled in together into the parking lot, and I wanted, uh, to invite you here. So I'm glad you're here. It's great. [0:24:12] I am, uh, I am skipping thanks and thank you right now. [0:24:15] Yeah. [0:24:17] So Chairman Williams won't thank me again. [0:24:19] No. [0:24:20] Go see my friend. [0:24:21] Well, good. I'm glad. It's all good. All right. Well, Betsy, I know you've got to get going too, so I'll let you take over. Do you want the table or the podium? [0:24:31] I will do a podium. [0:24:32] All righty. You- [0:24:35] Committee day is so fun because there's, like, four things going on from 8:00 to 9:00, and somehow they're all housing related. Um, so we're all gonna be running around. Uh, but for those who do not know me, my name is Betsy Bradfield. I'm the advocacy director for the Georgia Association of Realtors, and with me I have Jeff Ledford, who is our external affairs officer. Got that right. And then Matt Campbell, um, contracts with us. He is with Georgia Matters. So... And then I have my president for 2026, Brianne Drake, and then I have the president of the Atlanta Commercial Board, Jeff Shaw, with me. [0:25:13] And, um, I'll introduce Brianne, and then Jeff will introduce Jeff for the Jeff portion. Um, but if you have any co- Um, I have to duck out around 8:30 to go run to judiciary, but if you guys have any questions for me that maybe I didn't get to, um, Jeff Ledford, uh, is also on the lobby team here, so he knows, uh, all the answers to those questions. But I'm gonna go ahead and jump right in. You should have in your packet... I apologize if it's not 100% right. We can get you the right counties to you. [0:25:44] But we have given, um, you your local market update. So it basically goes over the changes to your housing market in your particular counties that your district represents in 2025. And then we also have our annual report that we put out every single year, and that gives a m- an overview of the market changes statewide. So I will briefly talk about some of those market changes here in my presentation. But a little bit about us, about the association. We represent 49,000 members across the state of Georgia. [0:26:17] We have 50 local realtor boards, so there's absolutely a realtor board in your jurisdiction. And we have been in existence for 106 years advocating for private property rights, homeownership, accessible housing, real estate licensure, and sh- protecting consumers, and to ensure thriving communities. We represent, my realtors represent rural, suburban, urban, and everything in between. And our members do a whole lot of everything. A lot of people think that we're just residential, but we specialize in s- residential, commercial, large land tracks, and lot development, and timber land. [0:26:53] We also do ag land and even more. There's, um, there's a realtor for every single kind of property you can imagine. The... So the current state of housing in Georgia is that people can't afford housing, which I'm sure is just breaking news for a lot of y'all. Um, the median sales price across all housing p- types in 2025 was $360,000. Um, and I don't know about you, but I don't think that $360,000 is affordable for a first time home buyer. [0:27:25] And for a single family detached house, that median price was 370,000 across the state. A, for a two-bedroom it was 262,000. For a three-bedroom it rose to 305. And then a four-bedroom home it rose to 450,000, and that's statewide. And buyers are purchasing their homes at 95.5% of list price. If you remember back in 2021, we were seeing this well over 100. So back when the market was incredibly hot, people were paying $10,000 over asking. [0:27:56] That has dropped down a little bit, um, and they're now buyer... sellers are offering some concessions. M- again, maybe offering closing cost, um, and dropping down that list price a little bit, and that's why you have that 95.5. Now, of course, this is not indicative of all communities. There are some areas where houses are selling like hotcakes, and people are still, um, offering full list So a healthy housing market should look like four to six months of inventory. And that means that it would take four to six months to sell out all of the current homes in the market with no homes added at all, and that is a healthy market. [0:28:33] If you have less than three months, that's considered a seller's market because the supply is low and the sellers have the advantage. And if you have greater than four, then you have, um, an oversupply, which is a buyer's market, which means buyers have the advantage. And right now, we're squarely at 3.9. So we are a little bit in between a buyer's and a seller's market. It really just depends. Um, and as I'm sure you guys are seeing on the news, a lot of this has to do with interest rates, um, which I wish I could tell you guys to, you know, pass a bill on interest rates. [0:29:04] I would have had someone introduce that day one of legislative session if we could. So, um, this is from our 2025 annual report. Um, the average sales price, which is different from the median, we prefer to use the median, but it increased to $448,000. And in 2025, a total of 40,189 homes were for sale at some point, which is actually an increase for 2024, which is, uh, good news. Um, and then we have one of my favorite statistics in here, which is the top five change in inventory, um, which we call our predictors for growth. [0:29:38] So this is the area where you will see rapid, or maybe not rapid, but increase in homes available and home sales, which means this is where gr- growth is going, right? Um, and that city of Atlanta is 4.2%. Savannah, 29.6, with all the booming of the port and everything going on there. Macon, 25.1. Columbus, 17.1, and then that greater Atlanta metro, um, 8.5. So you see mostly a lot of that movement is in the Savannah and Macon areas. [0:30:08] Um, and then the most in-demand housing category were, were homes that were $500,000 to a million. That is what people were looking for in the housing market in 2025. Um, and we know that because that price point had the shortest average market, uh, shortest average days on market. So it took this, the least amount of time to sell, uh, compared to the rest of the marketplace. And we are still dealing with, um, some changes from 2021. [0:30:39] It was 2021 and COVID years were the hottest real estate market we have seen in a long, long time, and will probably be in a long, long time. Um, but as you can see here, in our most populous areas, so in Atlanta, greater Atlanta area, Savannah, Columbus, Macon, and Augusta, prices have increased in every single one of these areas by double digits since 2021, and they're still climbing. So every single year they've increased. Um, and so you have here, um, and als- Bailey has these slides too, if you guys are interested, and this is from our report too. [0:31:13] But you'll see these 2025 numbers, so you can directly compare the median sales price year over year and see how it's increased. I'll just, I'll call out, um, Augusta here. So in 2021, it was 175,000 median sales, and now we're at 197. Uh, Atlanta metro was at 320 in 2021, and now we're at 389. So while 2021 was an incredibly hot market, um, because supply is still so low, you are seeing a lot of demand, um, and price points that are reflecting that. [0:31:49] Some great news. Georgia is the number one state to do business for 12 years now, um, which means that we have unprecedented economic growth because companies and people want to move here to the state of Georgia. A lot of that is due to our really competitive tax policy that you all have put into place. But our concern is, where are these people gonna live? So when we hear about all of these economic development projects taking off in certain areas of the state, where are those people going to live? Um, the alternative is they have to live several counties over, or you have to build new housing, but right now we do, do worry about that. [0:32:24] Um, and then Governor Kemp obviously saw the writing on the wall with his Rural Workforce Housing Development infrastructure grants, which have, in my opinion, helped a lot of local communities, especially in rural areas, be able to lay water and sewer and things like that to prepare housing development in order to meet the demand for those jobs that are coming to those areas. [0:32:47] So now about our 2026 GRAR, which is the Georgia Association of Realtors priorities, um, which is, these are the bills that we are, that are active still, um, and we are in support of almost all of them. Uh, Senate Bill 447, which is by Senator Clint Dixon, that is the permitting bill, similar to 812. It is in House Natural Resources subcommittee this morning. Senate Bill 458, which is our home inspector's licensure bill. Um, quick raise of hands, uh, how many people think that home inspectors are licensed? [0:33:22] Oh, no, you guys are... They're not. They are the only individual in the housing, in the transaction that are not licensed. Um, and there were unfortunately some issues in the Valdosta area, in Russ Goodman's home county, um, that led him to drop this bill. And it does not create an entire new licensing board. It just nestles a new license type under the general contractor, since that's what they mostly align with. Um, and that bill passed out of regulated industries yesterday, so, uh, we will be on to rules. [0:33:52] And then Senate Bill 406, which is in House Judiciary at 8:30. This is Matt Brass's HOA bill. So I'm sure you have a lot of HOAs, you have heard HOA complaints, a lot of, uh, in the more metropolitan area. Um, there are some perfectly fine HOAs who you will never hear anything about because they show up and they do their job. And then there are some really bad ones who take advantage of some of their residents. Um, we have to walk a fine line as, uh, the real estate industry because we live and die by the contract. And so when you sign at the closing table, you do know that you bought into an HOA, and you have your HOA closing documents. [0:34:29] Um, so we have to be, uh, understanding of that. But there are situations where HOAs are re- Ratcheting up fines and fees in order to foreclose on people to get them out of the neighborhood. And right now, the foreclosure threshold is only $2,000. So in Matt Brass's bill, it raises that to $4,000, and then it says you cannot foreclose on fines and fees. So they can't add attorney's fees, and you didn't cut your grass one inch fee, and you didn't use the right Sherwin-Williams paint fee in order to get to that 2,000 to begin foreclosure. [0:35:02] Um, it's only unpaid assessments and dues essentially. And it also creates... There's a mechanism to create an arbitration board under the Secretary of State. Um, and what that will look like is right now, if you have a problem with your HOA, you're kind of out of luck. Your best recourse and remedy is to find an attorney who will sue for you if they violated your governance, and a lot of attorneys will not take the case 'cause it, they will not win. Um, and so this creates an arbitration board and requires HOAs and POAs and COAs to file with the Secretary of State to, to show their governing documents and their governance so that then when if someone has an issue, they bring their issue to this, this board, and them and the HOA can basically go back and forth. [0:35:45] And whatever the HOA arbitration board says is the, backed up by the full weight of the attorney general's office, so they can issue fines for the HOA and things like that. Um, and so we're looking forward to this mechanism because right now there's nothing really to hold your HOA accountable. And if you have a perfectly fine HOA, well, there's no harm in it, right? Because they sh- they won't be going before the arbitration board because they haven't done anything wrong. But right now you have thousands of Georgia citizens saying that their rights and their, um, have been violated and there's nothing that they can do about it. [0:36:17] So, uh, 406 is a really common sense balanced approach, I think, um, at going after HOAs, some rogue HOAs, but still respecting the good ones who are doing a good job. And then Senate Bill 463 by Senator Greg Dolezal is about institutional investors. So institutional investors has been a interesting issue for us because if you remember last year we came down here to oppose McCullum's 555. Um, we are opposed to caps and mandates, so that's why we are opposed to Senate Bill 463, um, because it has a cap on that 500 homes, um, and that it has a private right of action. [0:36:54] So if you believe that your neighbor has more than 500 homes, you can sue them essentially. Um, but we have a different proposal that I think would get more, um, interest, which is a tax proposal. So basically it would look like mom-and-pop landlords who have less than 500 homes get taxed at a preferential treatment of 40% of assessed value, and, uh, large institutional investors o- over 500 get taxed at 100%. So it's not a forced divestiture. It's not a mandate. It's not a cap. It just says, "If you wanna stay in the State of Georgia, you're gonna play ball, and we're gonna level the playing field with our mom-and-pop landlords." Um, and it's also not a mandate, so it's totally an opt-in for the local government. [0:37:33] So counties like the metropolitan Atlanta area, a lot of them will probably opt in. Rural counties like yours might not opt in, Mr. Chairman, because in a lot of those counties, the institutional investors are not a problem for them, and they welcome all kinds of development and would probably, uh, uh, want them in their community. So it would just be a total option for the local governments who feel that they are being, um, inadvertently, or sorry, like, affected in a negative way. So there's also House Bill 1116, which I'm sure you all know a good bit about. This is the, the property tax reduction bill that we are in full support of. [0:38:07] And then House Bill 165 by Representative Franklin, which looks like a completely different bill based on the small caption. You know how this, this time of year works. So Representative Beth Camp had a manufactured housing bill in Senate Finance, and her bill basically, uh, right now a manufactured home can be taxed upwards of three times when it's sold. Um, and so it is expensive to purchase a new manufactured home, and to preserve affordable housing, she basically leveled that and just do, you do one single tax. [0:38:37] You don't pay at sale. You don't pay personal property. You don't pay real property. You just wrap it all up in one instead of having to pay three separate times, and it just simplifies the process. Also simplifies the process for counties because a lot of them treat them very differently. Um, and then her bill got subbed out in Senate Finance for an income tax proposal, so Representative Franklin let her attach the manufactured housing language into 165. And that is all I have. So this is my lobby team. [0:39:08] This is me and Jeff, and then Caitlin Bickett, um, from Representative Tarvin's area, up in Chickamauga. These are my people who are down here every single day, um, here to serve you, and I can answer any questions if you have them. If not, I'll kick it over to my president. [0:39:26] Well, Betsy, you're about to leave, right? [0:39:28] I'm good. I got time. [0:39:29] Okay. Well, we've got a couple of questions. I don't remember who was first. Tarvin? Chairman? Mr. Chairman? Yeah, you three. [0:39:35] Uh, quickly, offline, if you or Jeff are, uh, in CLOB, uh, I'd like to discuss the, explain the difference between the December to December and the January to Feb- uh, January, year-to-date. [0:39:50] Yeah, yeah. [0:39:50] The year-to-dates in December between the counties and how, how much difference there is. Some Decembers are better in the, one of the three counties, and if you could w- uh, come by sometime and I'll keep- [0:40:03] Yeah [0:40:03] ... I'll keep this in that neat desk I've got so you can s- ... you can find it. Thank you. [0:40:07] Absolutely. Thank you. [0:40:08] Thank you very much. [0:40:09] And Mr. Chairman, to your point, yeah, so we have these market reports for all of our 159 counties, and then we have them for months too. So if you wanna, you know, look at a certain month or look at a certain window, that is data that we can pull for you, um, so that you can have a, a better idea of what it looks like based on which- [0:40:28] Thank you [0:40:28] ... what kind of housing market you're dealing with. [0:40:30] Good. All right. Ms. Williams. [0:40:32] Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and good morning. [0:40:34] Good morning. [0:40:35] Good morning, Betsy. Um, I walked in on you talking about HOAs, and I- [0:40:40] You love HOAs [0:40:41] I'm happy that something is being done 'cause as you know I am the president of my HOA, and there are good actors, and there are very bad actors. Mm-hmm. And because we have to file with the Secretary of State every year, there were no way for individuals to even, um, for us to make sure w- what's in the covenant was upheld. Mm-hmm. Or for those that lived there, 'cause I'm on both sides. Right. Those that lived there had a way to question the HOA board. [0:41:17] So I am so excited about this, and I wanna make sure that my HOA is informed about it. Mm-hmm. Hopefully it will pass to help those individuals that need help because some of the stories that I've heard, they're horrendous. Yeah. And I don't understand. Um, I don't do that to my HOA that I live- Yeah, you wouldn't do that to your neighbors Yeah ... I- I'm just saying I, I, I don't understand how HOAs will do those nitpicky things and cost after cost after cost- Mm ... to individuals that are trying to survive. [0:41:51] Absolutely. Thank you. I, I hope it comes out of, uh, House Judiciary this morning, or at least some point this next week so you can guys, you guys can vote on it on the House floor. Thank you. All right. You're, you're up. Betsy, thank you so much for the presentation. You said earlier that the medium housing co- um, price is 360,000. Yes, sir. And that's, that's, that's unattainable for somebody, for a first-time buyer, and you also mentioned that 2021 was the year it just- Yes ... [0:42:21] peaked up. What, what is the reason behind that? Is it, um, is it fake as- fake assessments? Is it the, the land value has gone up? Is it the, the materials to build a home has gone up? Regulations? Why, why is it, why did it go up so high on 2021, and why is it still that high? And my second part of the question is what can we do to lower it down just a lit- just a little bit? Great question. [0:42:51] Thank you, Representative. Yes, 2021 was like a perfect storm, right? During COVID we saw a lot of, um, people leaving other states to move to the state of Georgia, and so you had people who were moving from California who had been saving up a million dollars in order to buy a tiny one-bedroom, and then here their million dollars can buy them a five-bedroom house, right? So you had people coming in from a lot of different states, not just New York and California, but from all over really, and, um, purchasing price at, purchasing at high prices. [0:43:23] And then, you know, like comps, if someone in the neighborhood buys at one million, then assessments can go up based on the local area. Um, and yes, assessments do rise. Land value rises, um, year over year. And also just supply. It's, uh, when there are less houses coming onto market, the houses that do exist go up in price and in demand. Uh, so what we think that we can do is more like, um, just take small bites out of it. I can't come to you today and say like, "Pass this bill and we'll fix the housing market," right? [0:43:54] I think, I wish that we could. A lot of it is interest rates, which y- you know is a federal decision, and that is keeping a lot of people in their homes. So right now you have a lot of people who have a really great interest rate, and I have some of my friends who've said to me, they bought their house in 2021 at an insane cost, and they said, "I'm gonna die in this house," because they refuse to sell it because what they could get for it or what their, the current, anything above it they're looking at is gonna cost so much more because of the interest, so they'd rather just stay in this house. Um, and that's anecdotal, but I'm, I'm hearing it across the state. [0:44:27] And there are some permitting reform issues, so Cheokas, uh, Representative Cheokas had House Bill 812, and then there's Senate Bill 447, and that will do what's called a 45-day shot clock for local government. So right now the 45 days is already an existing law, but how it works is every single time someone makes a comment, either the developer or the, um, local government on the permitting process, that 45 days starts over, right? So that's how you have some developments taking nine to 12 months to even get to, uh, fully permitted, and that's before they've even broken ground. [0:45:01] And that developer has to carry all of that interest throughout that whole project, and they have to weather the spikes in material costs, like you mentioned. Like in 2020, uh, I think it was in 2020 or 2019 maybe, no, it was in 2021, the lumber prices that went up like 500%, and at that point developers and home builders, they didn't have a choice. You, y- there wasn't cheaper lumber. That was just the price of lumber, so that's what they had to do. So at that time home builders had to, um, raise the prices of homes in order to absorb that increased lumber. [0:45:32] Um, and of course in 2021 everybody was staying at home, so everyone wanted to do a renovation on their house. They wanted to build a big back deck or a second bedroom, um, and so that further drove up those materials cost. Um, but we have the permitting bill, which I think would hopefully increase supply because as the permitting timeline goes down, the less the, uh, interest is carried over, so the developer doesn't have to list that price for as much, um, on that new build. Um, there's also a t- a ton, there's things that you guys can do on, um, institutional investors with the tax policy. [0:46:08] Um, but the, I'm not sure the cap is the right answer because, uh, the cap would see a lot of divestiture, and so you'd see, you, what you would see is a lot of homes hitting the market 'cause they have to sell them, right? Um, but we do fear what that could mean for real estate investment as a whole. But, um, I do think that, you know, they are also, institutional investors are, are the easy boogeyman, right? It's the easy like, well, they've come into our communities and they've taken over. Um, but a lot of it is really to do to supply. They, they initially came into the state of Georgia because we were an incredible market [0:46:41] They saw that we had low supply. They saw that they could manipulate the market in order to have certain rental prices and buy homes low and sell high basically. So Georgia was unfortunately, we were just a gamble for them. We're, we're a good return on investment. If you were sitting in their shoes, you would look at the ROI they gave you and be like, "This was an incredible investment. They've done a great job with my money," right? And that is what they were doing, is they were looking at the market and deciding to invest in real estate. And, um, for years, investing in real estate has been the most secure way to build generational wealth in this country. [0:47:14] So I can't necessarily blame them, um, but I think we do need to do something to protect our mom-and-pop landlords who have, you know, 10, 20 houses, and they live down the street, and you know them. And they're licensed property managers, so they have a license under the Georgia Real Estate Commission, and you can hold them accountable with the Real Estate Commission. Um, so I think we need to protect them and help housing be created through supply changes, and I think that permitting bill will do, uh, will go a long way. But right now we're just taking little chunks out of it, and a lot of it is, um, you know, individual local governments and how they feel about development. [0:47:48] I think some of them, some local governments, they would like to bring development, but they can't because of the cost of infrastructure. So the governor's workforce housing grants I think will help a ton with some of those, uh, local governments who just can't make the numbers work. But then unfortunately you do have some local governments who don't want housing and, you know, a lot of people moved into their local community because they made it a really great place to live, and then they slammed the door, and they don't want anyone else to live there, and they're like surprised that people wanna come to this incredible, um, county that they've built. So a lot of it is just changing hearts and minds on the local level. [0:48:21] Um, and, you know, growth and development are not a bad thing, but they need to be planned, and they need to be strategic in what we call smart growth. Like, there is a way that you can do it to work with your unified development plan and make it work, so you're not putting a ton of cars on the road and a ton of kids in schools. But it, it, it takes thoughtful process to make that development work. And some, sometimes you just see blanket developments that are created, just inked, and they go across the street, and there's no infrastructure to support them. And that is what, you know, a lot of people complain about, is, like, they think that some development just went up, and they have no control over it. [0:48:57] And that sort of locks down opinions about, uh, increased housing at the local market. Great. Betsy, that was wonderful. Uh, enjoyed your presentation. Thank you. One more thing we can do is encourage contractors. Um, with the, with the delays in getting the permitting- Mm-hmm ... the local contractors, the small maybe five or six houses a year contractors- Yes, sir ... they got out of the market. Um- They did in 2008. Mm-hmm. Yeah, 'cause they didn't have the ability to do the carrying stuff. [0:49:28] Mm-hmm. And so if we can encourage local contractors, then we can get some, uh, competition in the market. And I know you all have done a, a great job and continue to do a great job with, um, TCSG and with workforce development and investing in those students because, um, you know, we need those jobs. We need plumbers. We need people who are gonna work on housing developments and h- and build those houses. And TCSG I think has done a great job investing in those, um, in those jobs in order to, when the time is right and they need to build those projects, that, that those students will be ready. [0:50:03] Perfect. Well, thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. And then I will introduce my president, my 2026 president, Brianne Drake. She is from the Henry County area. She's part of the Atlanta c- uh, Atlanta Board of Realtors, but she is my state association president. So I'm happy to have her here today, and I will kick it over to her. You ready? Yes. You want me to shut this? Sure. It might go away. Thank you all. I appreciate you. Thank you, Ms. Betsy. See you soon. See you soon. Good morning. [0:50:33] Good morning. Good morning. As Betsy said, my name is Brianne Drake, and I am the president of the Georgia Association of Realtors. I am also a Realtor associate broker for the Atlanta Fine Homes Sotheby's International Realty. I have been selling real estate for almost 28 years now. Real estate is not just something that I talk about. I am currently a full-time Realtor, and this is how I make my living. So I am actively working, um, in real estate, and I represent buyers and sellers today. [0:51:09] And I will be providing some examples that are coming from real-life examples and what's happening in the market today within our communities. I am very proud to be a Realtor, where we are held to a higher professional and ethical standard. And I volunteer as a Realtor and as the president, but I make my money by being a Realtor and representing our clients. Um, and I strongly believe in our Realtor brand, and that's why I work so hard to protect our industry and our communities. [0:51:43] I am very grateful and thankful to be here with you today, and I'm thankful for the relationships that our advocacy team has cultivated with our legislators. So thank you so much for what you do for us. [0:51:55] Um, those relationships are very important because it helps us in protecting our private property rights and are promoting homeownership. Now, what I share with you today, I will be, be providing some insights, but as Betsy has said, it is gonna come from, uh, my local area of practice, and that is Henry County. Some of the examples that I will be providing will reflect issues of Henry County, but also some issues that are coming forth from other realtors across this great state of Georgia and national realtors that I have relationships with as well. [0:52:31] Now, the information is real-life examples and observations that will help illustrate why buyers and sellers are expe- what they're experiencing today in our market. And I want to note that the examples that I will be providing to you today are not referencing luxury, the luxury market because as we all w- all know, that segment is a very different segment in our market. Um, as Betsy has stated, those seven hundred and fifty thousand to over a million dollar properties, it, it's a different market. [0:53:03] So I will be instead focusing on the typical homes and price points that most buyers and families are dealing with each and every day today. The first-time home buyers, the working families, and the move-up buyers, um, that are looking today, and those are the areas that we're seeing many of the affordability and inventory challenges that we are currently facing. Now, in Henry County, the market is very stable. The median price is three hundred, three hundred and fifty thousand. I know Betsy gave you some Georgia statistics, um, and three hundred and sixty was the median. [0:53:37] But in Henry County, it's three hundred and fifty thousand. Days on the market is averaging forty-seven days on the market with a supply of three point eight, where that's in between that seller and buyer's market. And I know on average, statewide was three point nine. Our inventory is, has improved, um, compared to the extreme seller's market during that pande- pandemic of twenty twenty, um, that Betsy was referring to and the increase of the pricing that was taking place at that time. [0:54:07] However, we still have fewer homes available, and many buyers needs, um, or can afford, we don't have that supply that is necessary. However, homes that are priced correctly in the right locations and move-in conditions, those homes are selling fairly quickly. The market is no longer in that list Friday, sell by Sunday, um, atmosphere and environment that we saw a few years ago. Most homes selling today are driven by life events. [0:54:38] Now, those life events are some, some of the common reasons are, of course, job relocations, divorce, death, growing families or children. We have retirement or downsizing, and also the rise in property taxes, insurance, and making, um, um, staying unaffordable. And what do I mean by that? The inventory remains limited because homeowners are reluctant to sell. As Betsy has said, many homeowners, um, took advantage of the lower interest rates, that two and a half to three percent interest rates. [0:55:13] So selling today means replacing that loan with an interest rate of six percent or more. This could significantly increase their monthly mortgage payments even when they're downsizing. So to downsize, you could e-effectively or, or perhaps have higher housing mortgage, um, rates, and not to mention capital gains implications could be a possibility as well. And I'll use myself as an example on this. I was considering downsizing to a sm- smaller home, but after considering doing so, replacing the home with something comparable in quality, um, location, and affordability was very difficult for me to make that sound decision, um, or making it financially. [0:55:59] Because even though you have equity of in excess of four to five hundred thousand dollars, the numbers just did not make sense. Selling and purchasing something much smaller resulted in a higher monthly payment for me. Um, that is why many of the homeowners are choosing to stay in their homes and to stay where they are because initially, after planning to do so and even at a point where I started packing, I had to decide to unpack because it just was not a realistic, uh, um, reason for me to sell. [0:56:30] So the situation is not unique to me. Equity alone does not always make moving financially beneficial. Also, property taxes and affordability. This influences decisions about buying, selling, or staying in a home. This is a major part of affordability conversations now. Um, homeowners also are balancing a rise in taxes, um, higher increase in insurance, as well as the interest rate changes. [0:57:00] You see, personal example, once again, for me, when I purchased my home in twenty fourteen, my taxes were thirty-seven hundred dollars a year. Today, it's doubled. It's eighty-five hundred dollars in ten years, more than doubled. My insurance when I moved in my property was eleven hundred dollars. It's tripled, thirty-five hundred dollars. When I moved into my home, I did not have flood insurance. Two years after I purchased my home, and they did the remapping, when FEMA came in and did the remapping, it's eight homes in my cul-de-sac, two of us were told that we needed flood insurance. [0:57:38] So that was another added expense. So as you can see, for homeownership, it is not just about a mortgage payment. It is about mortgage insurance. It's, uh, mortgage payments. It's about property taxes, homeowners insurance, flood insurance, and other regulatory requirements as well. So the cost heavily influenced whether homeowners choose to move, are forced to move or stay in or choose to stay. Because some homeowners with these increases can no longer afford to stay in their homes. Um, I have clients, for instance, I showed a property on Sunday, and this client has recently gone through a divorce. [0:58:14] He was renting because at the time of going through the divorce, he could not purchase a home. Well, now that the divorce has been finalized, he wants to purchase. We were looking in Henry County, and he's approved for a nice amount, but he does not want to exceed $600,000. But at $600,000, what we're seeing is the taxes on it is gonna be anywhere from 8,500 to over $10,000 a year just for the taxes, and he said that's not something he's willing to do. So he has a couple of choices, and right now currently he works 16 minutes from where he resides. [0:58:48] He can either move where it's gonna take him over an hour commute to work, or he's at a point of saying, "It makes no sense. I might have to just rent to be closer to work." So that knocks out a lot of our buyers as well. I have another client that was approved first-time home buyer for $300,000. Well, at $300,000 he cannot purchase in the Henry County area as well because of taxes. It's gonna take him well over the $300,000 mark, although some of the homes that he could purchase are below the $300,000, but once you incorporate the taxes and insurance, he can no longer afford it. [0:59:25] So he's at the point of having to also purchase somewhere within an hour commute from his family. And he's not, he does not have unrealistic expectations. He just wants something very, um, um, immediate, a three bedroom, two bathroom for he and his children, as well as some, a small bath- a small backyard, and he wants something in a nice neighborhood, of course, with a good st- school district. But we're gonna have to go now to somewhere like the Coweta County, um, just to find something that he can afford for his family, because he's a first-time home buyer and he's in his late 30s. [1:00:01] So he just wants something nice for his family. So as you can see, um, those needs, and as first-time home buyers, you want something that they can move into without having these people that now all of a sudden I can qualify, I can buy a home, but I'm still forced into a rental situation, and that's what we're seeing a lot of as well. Although they can qualify, there's no affordability. Um, also, we look at the impact of traffic and infrastructure. You know, um, the impact exceeds beyond real estate. [1:00:32] It comes to traffic congestion, which we have a whole lot of in Henry County and Metro Atlanta itself, but the commute times, infrastructure demands, and the overall quality of life also suffers. Now, what the buyers are doing today, buyers are very educated. They're doing a whole lot of research. Um, they're payment focused, um, considering all factors that are involved now. They're very cautious. They want, they don't want to be cash poor. They are more likely to negotiate and want some negotiation, and they are sometimes I have these clients that'll look at the listings online, and they'll negotiate before they get to the property, and they'll say, "Well, I'm willing to pay X amount of dollars." And I say, "Well, how do you know that? [1:01:16] We haven't even gone to the home yet." But this is what they're doing now. Um, but if homes are priced correctly, like I said, well-maintained and great locations, then the houses are still selling. But today's housing market is not defined by a lack of demand. It is defined by affordability and mobility. Um, the homeowners have significant equity in most of these homes, but hesitate to move. Um, at the same time, many buyers want to purchase, but are limited by the affordability and the availability of the inventory. [1:01:50] So equity alone does not create mobility. Um, affordability does. So thank you for the opportunity to speak before you today. And are there any questions for me? [1:02:07] Thank you so much for the presentation. [1:02:09] Thank you. [1:02:09] Very, very... You can probably see me shaking my head and 100% in agree with you. What you said about the property taxes and how f- uh, buyers are making decisions based on that $8,000 a year property tax, that's one of the reasons why we introduced HB 1106- [1:02:30] Yes [1:02:30] ... for that same reason. And I'm sorry to hear about g- Henry County. It's doubled. [1:02:35] Yes. We w- [1:02:35] It's doubled [1:02:35] ... um, Henry County increased three points from, um, increased three points in 2024 alone. [1:02:42] Wow. And I, and I hope the cap, the bill that we introduced and it passed, the cap at 3% helps those, those buyers. My question to you is, you have a family of four in Waukesha, Wisconsin, and I'm, and I'm gonna, and I'm gonna let you put your state, because you're the state president- [1:03:01] Okay [1:03:02] ... uh, hat on, basically. [1:03:04] Okay. [1:03:04] You have a family of four in Waukesha, in Waukesha, uh, Kansas, that wants to, uh, move to Georgia, and they call, they call you. What... Tell me the hot market, tell me the hot city based on taxes, based on affordability. What would you tell them? North, south? Uh, where? What, where would you recommend that family in Wisconsin that wants to transfer to, uh, Georgia, where would you tell them, "This is the place to buy a home"? And I know you're probably gonna say Henry County. [1:03:35] No. [1:03:35] But, but I want you to put that, that state, that state hat on. Thank you. [1:03:38] So the state hat being on- [1:03:40] Yeah [1:03:40] ... it would, it depends. So that is not just a quick question, a quick answer for me. So whenever I speak to a client when they initially call, it's, it's more of an interview process. So it has many different variables before I would answer that questions, and it would relate to where they're trying to get to, where their commute to work is, um, how much they're trying to spend, what their situation is. So that's kind of a hard question for me to answer just as a direct question. [1:04:09] Okay. All right. Um, we've got another presenter, so if you could just ask the questions offline, let's do that. I thank Jeff. Thank you very much for your presentation. [1:04:18] Thank you. I appreciate it. [1:04:19] Yeah. But I thank Jeff. I think it's your turn. Do you want the table or what? Like- [1:04:25] Which would you prefer? [1:04:26] Oh, the podium's fine. [1:04:27] All right. [1:04:27] Yeah. [1:04:28] So I'm, uh, Jeff Ledford, uh, the external affairs officer for the Georgia Realtors. I'm here to introduce another Jeff, Jeff Shaw. Uh, Jeff has been in the real estate industry for what, thirty years now? [1:04:38] Over thirty, yes. [1:04:39] Over thirty. Over thirty years. He has been recognized as, uh, most admired CEO by Atlanta Business Chronicle, and he is the current president, the twenty twenty-six president of the Atlanta Commercial Board of Realtors. So Jeff Shaw. [1:04:53] Ah, thank you. Thanks for letting another Jeff in the building. [1:04:56] Sure. Yeah. [1:04:57] Uh, Mr. Chair and members, thank you for, uh, taking the time, allowing us to have some time. Um, want to, um, spend a little bit, um, of time running through the commercial real estate market. Uh, there's a lot going on. Um, just that little bit about me. I, I have been... I, I am an Atlanta native, uh, multi-generational. Uh, I have over thirty years of commercial real estate experience, both as a broker, um, and as an investor and representing investors all around the country. Um, you know, at, at one point, I believe our, our firm had about fourteen million, um, square feet of, of office space. [1:05:33] Um, so it was... I, I worked on the operational side. Uh, my background, I worked at Cushman & Wakefield, JLL, and CBRE before starting a firm in two thousand and three. That firm, uh, grew, it merged, it went public on the New York Stock Exchange, and was just acquired by Apollo Global Management a few months ago. Um, I, I, uh, I currently am advising, and, uh, and you may have noticed my while smoking, I'm, uh... I just recovered from, uh, marrying off both of my daughters, uh, over the last eighteen months. [1:06:04] Uh, but commercial real estate, you know, really is a leading indicator for economic activity. You know, it reflects where businesses are expanding, where people are moving, where they're finding jobs, and where investment capital believes future growth is gonna occur. Fortunately for Georgia, most of the major indicators still point to long-term growth, even though certain commercial sectors are going through structural changes. Um, I'm hosting the Atlanta Commercial Board Million Dollar Club on Thursday. [1:06:34] We had about twenty-four billion in transaction volume, uh, in, in and around Atlanta, uh, from about five hundred and forty commercial brokers, which was showing activity across office, industrial, retail, hospitality, multifamily, and emerging sectors such as data centers. You know, the picture today is one of resilience, albeit with adjustments, but demand patterns have changed since COVID. Interest rates are still a headwind, but Georgia's diversified economy continues to attract investment and jobs. [1:07:10] Companies and investors still see Georgia and Atlanta as competitive against other states and cities, um, really highlighting the cost to do business, but it is a location that is safe for long-term growth. It has a highly educated workforce, a good transportation system, great logistics infrastructure such as our airport and the Port of Savannah. The strongest drivers right now for commercial demand are logistics, technology, financial services, healthcare, and manufacturing. [1:07:42] So let's start with the office market and COVID. So, uh, being an office owner, uh, broker, we were hit hard, and we continue to be hit hard since COVID. You know, the good news is that companies or tenants have, for the most part, figured out hybrid work and have adjusted their footprints. Many have reduced in size, many have relocated to higher quality buildings, but this trend of the last few years seems to have stabilized. Atlanta office vacancy is at sixteen point six percent, uh, which is slightly higher than the national average. [1:08:18] Metro Atlanta was at twelve percent vacancy in twenty twenty. So then you start looking at the five-year average for the trailing twelve-month absorption, it has been negative about one point four million square feet. So we, um, had a lot of vacancy get dumped on the market and office since COVID. That doesn't reflect the nearly five point six million square feet of sublease space that are available that adds another one point seven percent into the existing inventory, so that is more vacancy. Uh, but, but, uh, office space negative absorption has slowed down, so we do expect that stabilization to continue, but we saw about twelve consecutive quarters of negative absorption. [1:09:00] But the volume there... Uh, I'm sorry. The problem there is that owners still have banks that don't wanna lend on any office, along with raising interest rates, increased construction costs, and where office property valuation is very hard to determine with limited sales. So if you can't figure out what the value of the building is because there hasn't been sales and there hasn't been enough stability in the market long enough for banks to feel comfortable about the risk, it makes it very hard for existing owners. It also makes it hard for them to reinvest into their properties. [1:09:32] So, um, so you just... You, you, you're s- It, it creates a real problem. But, uh, so over the last twelve months, Atlanta's sales volume was about two billion, um, as compared to twenty twenty-two, which was actually double that. Um, one thing that helps is there is very little new construction, about one point one million square feet currently, so we're not adding a lot of new office inventory. Um, those investors who are seeking to purchase are mostly private capital, looking for newer buildings, walkable mixed use, near transit, uh, strong amenities, and built around an employee experience. [1:10:08] It's still very much a war for talent. Um, and but it's usu- the, the, the assets are usually significantly discounted. Older buildings are not seeing much or any absorption, so they are either going back to the bank or they become candidates for adaptive reuse. Now, this also helps reduce the market inventory, but it's complicated because most office buildings do not have the utility and design infrastructure to support a conversion to residential. And so there has been some success. [1:10:40] You've seen it with medical research and residential conversion, but it's just not the answer for every challenged building, and so many of them are just gonna sit. And with, um, s- with, but with cycles comes opportunity, so there will be some generationally low purchase opportunities in office, but we need some time before we see institutional investors getting beyond that risk and jumping back into it. So the hottest sectors, um, industrial and logistics, you know, really had an opposite effect than what happened with office. [1:11:13] COVID, um, made online shoppers of all of us. Uh, the main reason for this growth, e-commerce and supply chain restructuring. You know, as a result, distribution centers, logistic hubs, the last mile delivery facilities continue to expand across the metro area and throughout Georgia. Industrial real estate has remained one of Georgia's clear strengths. The Port of Savannah has been one of the fastest growing container ports in the United States, and that, with supporting rail connectivity, promotes industrial development with distribution centers, logistic hubs, and manufacturing suppliers locating across Georgia. [1:11:50] So if we look at retail, uh, retail has quietly become much healthier than much people expected. Um, the supply actually remained fairly limited. It was a trend that started after the great financial crisis of the last cycle, and it really never became robust again. You didn't see that, that big boom of development. So as population grows, especially in suburban counties like Forsyth and Cherokee, you find that neighborhood retail centers are filling quickly with the grocery stores and restaurants, service businesses, and healthcare providers. [1:12:21] You know, small businesses truly are the primary drivers of all of this leasing activity. Now, hospitality. Georgia's tourism sector continues to expand. Now, with that, hospitality devel- hospitality development is, uh, gonna follow. Uh, Atlanta is, um, has particular benefits from convention traffic, sporting events, and international travel through the airport. You know, upcoming events like the World Cup, well, that's gonna accelerate that activity with the currently active developments that you see, a short-term lift in hotel occupancy, plus new hotel flags that are entering the market, restaurants and retail demand in the near event zones, and infrastructure upgrades that often lead to longer term investment in the surrounding district. [1:13:06] So when asking the Metro Atlanta Chamber about this, you know, hospitality leaders, uh, along with the, uh, Metro Atlanta Chamber, they expect really legacy benefits that'll come from that international, um, exposure and visibility, plus, um, upgraded venues and the transit improvements. So, um, now let's talk about data centers. Obviously, data centers are one of the fastest emerging sectors in Georgia, um, and, um, especially around data center development. I know you're all very much aware of it, but Atlanta, from, uh, an investor's perspective, is now considered one of the top data center markets in the United States. [1:13:42] That's really driven by reliable and low-cost power infrastructure, fiber connectivity, competitive land cost, and a strong technology workforce. Um, the AI, artificial intelligence, and cloud computing are really driving all this enormous demand for these facilities. Um, so, uh, if, if, um, if, if you were to, uh, say, "How could you support us?" Uh, you know, one of the, uh, you know, as, as an office broker, I guess one of my biggest concerns is what to do with this high vacancy, um, and, uh, and the older office buildings. [1:14:15] Uh, many of them are, uh, becoming, um, obsolete. The, the streamlining of approvals and permits for development and redevelopment is huge, uh, especially for adaptive reuse that can be converted and under, t- these underutilized buildings into housing or medical or small business space. Um, also replacing those functionally obsolete buildings to its highest and best use. Um, facilitating access to state-backed financing or guarantees for small, uh, businesses, small commercial developments, or even older properties. [1:14:53] Um, construction financing for smaller developers is really tough. It's expensive, uh, particularly when you look at downtowns, um, and you look at growth corridors. Uh, higher interest rates really slow that new construction as well, and, um, and it makes refinancing very difficult on these older properties. Um, also continue industrial infrastructure investment because you look at transport, logistics, uh, broadband. Those are the things that are really bolstering Georgia's competitiveness against other states in industrial and data center markets. [1:15:25] And then, of course, with the, the Port of Savannah, you know, heavily focusing on that coordination and regional supply chain initiatives to support the logistic hubs like South Atlanta, Augusta, Macon. So, um, and just in finishing up, you know, I really believe that the partnership between the policymakers and the private sector, Georgia is very well positioned to sustain that balanced growth that's benefiting businesses both large and small, and creating jobs while attracting and keeping investors in this state. So thank you for your time, and we'll-- I'd be happy to take some questions. [1:15:58] Want to go? [1:16:00] Yes. [1:16:02] Thank you, Jeff, for the presentation. Um, I think towards the end of your, uh, presentation, you said, "How can we help you?" [1:16:07] Mm-hmm. [1:16:08] Would one of the ways that we are helping you as policymakers is basically just being a legislature that's business friendly? [1:16:17] Yes. [1:16:17] Uh, you know, you, you, we, we look at other states, and I think I asked you this earlier, what are we doing? Are, are, are you starting to see commercial companies coming from like New York, California, some other states that are not so much business friendly? Are you starting to see them here more? Uh, what's, what's your- [1:16:38] Yes. If your question is are, are companies relocating into Georgia, um, absolutely. Uh, we-- And I-- And it really seemed to accelerate it over the period of COVID because people went home, and then they started re-- you know, analyzing their life and looking at hybrid work, and they said, "Man, I sure would like to be somewhere that's warmer or somewhere that's less expensive or somewhere where it's, it's more fun." And Atlanta checks all those boxes. And so we continue to see major corporations looking at relocating to Atlanta. [1:17:08] And, uh, and I can provide you a very extensive list of those that, you know, Fortune 1000, Fortune 100 companies- Uh, that, and, and not, not only just, um, domestically, but we're seeing a lot of international companies also looking at the, at the, at, um, the Southeast and particularly in, in Georgia. [1:17:27] Okay. Cool. Well, I have a couple of questions. And thank you, Jeff. I appreciate that, and I appreciate your in-depth analysis of the commercial real estate- [1:17:37] Mm-hmm [1:17:37] ... you know, market right now. Um, and but I was concerned with the older properties, the older office buildings. And, you know, and I understand what, what some of the problem is with infrastructure and how you're gonna put enough bathrooms, to be perfectly frank with you, or how you're gonna- [1:17:54] Right [1:17:55] ... cut it up and give enough room for a bedroom and, and so forth, and closets. So it does create some, some challenges. Um, are those properties, by and large, in areas that would support residential, uh, uh, re- rehab, or are they, uh, in business parks and you really have to go to a business, uh, would be the only market for them? [1:18:26] You know, quite honestly, these, these, um, properties are everywhere. Uh, you know, I, I, you know, there's, there, there are properties in the, in the densest and, and, uh, you know, the hottest markets in, in the state, and there, there are properties in the suburbs, and there are properties in, in small towns. And, you know, I think when, you know, on ... When you look at the dynamics of, you know, office, office and what happened over hybrid, um, so many companies just said, "Hey, um, you know, we don't need to have as many people in the office. We can reduce in size. [1:18:57] We're paying less rent now, and so why don't we just move to something nicer? You know, we budgeted anyway." And so they do, they relocate. And then that, that building that they, that they leave behind, um, they're, they may not be in the hottest market with the newest and nicest buildings, and so what they're having to lower the rates to be competitive. They're having a hard time, um, attracting people to come in, and yet the interest rates are going up. The cost of construction is, continues to go up. And so, um, and then they go to refinance their buildings, and you find that, that the bank is like, "Well, you're not in the hottest, coolest area, you know? [1:19:32] I, I'm not so sure I wanna lend on you." And so it, it, it makes it very difficult for those, you know, those, those owners. And so what happens, in answering your question, they have to look at what, what decision do they ... Do they continue to hold the, the building and continuing to feed the building? Do they, do they invest in it and refinance and, and, you know, have to put more capital in? Or do they, uh, do they abandon the building to the bank? Or do they, um, and or do they look at a mixed, you know, a, a, uh, a redevelopment opportunity? And, and I think that there may be some potential for affordable housing, and, and, uh, and, and cer- certain buildings have the infrastructure to support it, but just a lot don't. [1:20:10] You start looking at some of these high-rises and, you know, they, they don't have the infrastructure to, to handle the plumbing and the power and, and, you know, the, and the parking. And so, um, it, it becomes a challenge. It becomes very expensive, and a lot of times people are saying, "Well, if I can't sell it for, for that much, and I, I can't redevelop it and then guarantee that it's actually gonna be a return," then they, they abandon the property. They tear the property down and, and, um, and re- and rebuild. [1:20:36] Gotcha. Gotcha. [1:20:38] Chairman? [1:20:38] Right. Yeah, go for it. [1:20:39] Just one more question. [1:20:40] Yeah. No. [1:20:40] I'm assuming that during COVID- [1:20:41] Hold on [1:20:42] ... the, uh, commercial ... [1:20:44] Trying to give you the ... Push a button. Is it pushed? There you go. [1:20:50] I'm assuming that during COVID the, uh, commercial business took a hit. [1:20:54] Yes. [1:20:54] People, I guess, closed. Um, are you starting to see some of those folks that abandoned the commercial industry, in, in other words, they left the buildings, uh, because of, of COVID, are you starting to see them back again? Are you starting to see that market kinda, uh, increase somewhat? [1:21:12] Well, if you think about in- investment, any layer of risk, um, for, for these institutional or even private investors, you know, there's on- there's a, the, a lot of, there are a lot of private investors, some institutions that are willing to, um, take a higher risk because they're getting a very low, you know, price on a, on, on an asset. And, you know, I think we did see people that, that did leave, um, you know, investment, particularly in office space, uh, but are now, are now starting to see those opportunities of, say, buildings that are now going to auction or buildings that are now significantly discounted. [1:21:46] And so you're, you're starting to see that activity, but it's primarily private, uh, right now. Um, I think from an institutional perspective, now that things are starting to stabilize with companies have figured out ... And if you think, most companies have three, five, 10-year leases. And so COVID hits, it took them a while to get to their lease expiration to figure out what they were gonna do as a business and then make that decision. We're kinda in that zone now. So, so all of that kinda turmoil is already kinda, mostly already happened. And so kind of moving, moving forward, I, you know, I think that they'll, the, you need a few years of sustained income on a lot of properties for people to say, "Okay, this is safe to get back into." And so I think we're s- at the very beginning of, um, of, of the, uh ... [1:22:30] And you're saying that there's a decent amount of sales that are happening, but they're not the, they're, they're not h- the home run sales that you would, you know, you would want. Yeah. [1:22:38] Cool. [1:22:38] All right. [1:22:39] Very cool. Well, great. Jeff, thank you. Uh, thank you very much for the presentation. It was very informative, and if you wanna stay afterwards, we'll be happy, 'cause I wanna, I'm curious. [1:22:51] Absolutely. [1:22:52] Yeah. Uh- [1:22:53] Thank you for the opportunity. [1:22:54] Thank you for being here. Uh, Chairman Crowe, I'm gonna, since you are here, I'd like for you to, you know, kinda give us a little, give us some insight and wisdom, and maybe close things out for us if you could do that. [1:23:11] Well, I, I don't know if I can or not. That's an awfully big ask, Mr. Chairman. Um- [1:23:20] We're gonna give you an hour, so don't worry. [1:23:22] Perfect. [1:23:23] I'm playing. [1:23:24] All right. That's good. I have nowhere else to be. Um, now everybody has, has kind of already touched on a lot of the points and, and, um, you know, some of the questions that were asked, especially about what we do about it now. I, I think we are kinda taking an approach where we're trying to, to hit at it from several different angles. You know, it's a big problem. Um, I wish we could snap our finger- [1:23:48] Yeah [1:23:49] ... and, and, you know, make housing more affordable, right? But, um, there's a lot of differing opinions and, and, you know, people have different needs and desires in their communities. Um, you know, nobody wants all the growth, but they also don't want to have no growth. You know, there's certain parts of the state down in southwest Georgia that's actually losing population- [1:24:13] We are [1:24:13] ... that would, that would, uh, you know, love to trade places with us and have some of the issues we're having where people wanna move here. I don't think any of us want to live in a state, uh, where people are, uh, where we're having a net loss of population rather than a net growth, right? And so when we create an environment that's business-friendly, that's tax-friendly, that's, uh, an enjoyable place to live, that's safe, and have safe communities, more people are gonna wanna come enjoy that. [1:24:43] Mm-hmm. [1:24:43] Um, and so we have a, a supply issue essentially. The, the biggest problem we have with housing is we don't have enough houses. [1:24:51] Mm-hmm. [1:24:52] Um, and when you have increased demand and a decreased supply, you're gonna have price increases, and that's what we saw. Uh, it was just exacerbated with COVID because so many people were moving at one time because, uh, that was a real shift- [1:25:05] Mm-hmm [1:25:05] ... um, in where people were wanting to live. Um, and of course, the expansion of, you know, internet that we've done a real good job with in some of our, our more rural and outlying areas. People can move a little farther out now, so you're having communities, especially in the, in the outer metro area where I live- [1:25:24] Mm-hmm [1:25:25] ... and where Representative Martinez live, that a lot of people have moved to because it's a, you know, a little, uh, slower pace- [1:25:32] Mm-hmm [1:25:32] ... but they can still do things. And so you're seeing communities have a lot of growth that, uh, are trying to figure out how to handle it. But there are some real constraints. And I know you were in local government. You know, you were a mayor, so you, you've dealt with some of those challenges. Um, and, and I was on the... You know, a lot of people think, sometimes we have these discussions, they think that I'm against any kind of zoning or anything like that. I spent 11 years on the planning and zoning board in, in my home county before I got into this position. Um, I am all for zoning. [1:26:04] I think that there is a right way to plan and to place things, and it, the, there needs to be a, a well-thought-out process. Uh, as was mentioned earlier, we need to be very, uh, intentional about how we handle growth. But, um, I think what we're seeing now is it's just a, you know, we're, we're bringing in companies, we're doing a lot of economic development investment, uh, and that brings with it people. And, and so, um, the increase in build-to-rent communities I think is a, a symptom of the problem. [1:26:39] I don't think it's the cause of the problem. Uh, I think, just as Betsy said, I think they, uh, they're investors. Their, their whole goal is to look for opportunities, uh, where they can enter a market, um, at a lower cost and exit it at a, at a higher price. Um, and that's exactly what they saw. They saw the huge demand increase here. They saw we had a very low supply. If they can buy those, um, you know, and other people aren't able to buy, there's gonna be an increased rental market. A lot of communities, there's been a real, um, lack of growth or a real opposition to having, um, traditional rental properties, apartments, and, and condos, townhomes, things like that in a lot of communities. [1:27:21] Um, there's been a lot of, um, you know, pushback on those type of developments, so you don't have as many rental units. A- and quite frankly, uh, most people that, that are renting would prefer to rent a house anyway. Um, and so there was a big demand because there was a lack of available properties to rent. And so they saw a, a market and, uh, you know, took advantage of it. But I think that a lot of the things we're trying to do to stop that, uh, I don't think that, that we need to try to say, "Hey, here's how many houses." Try to pick some arbitrary number and say, "This is how many houses one entity or one group or one individual can own." I think that's a dangerous precedent to set. [1:28:03] I think that having a, uh, a process where we can have more people being willing and able to buy homes- [1:28:12] Mm-hmm [1:28:12] ... um, is a way to help that. You know, one of the bills I had that unfortunately we didn't quite get across the finish line on crossover day, um, was dealing with the Department of Community Affairs and their Georgia Dream program and trying to remove our statutory cap on the mortgage revenue bonds. That is, is simply an arbitrary number because those bonds have no impact on the taxpayers of Georgia. Um, all it does is create a situation where they may run up against it, and that program may be throttled back because they can't sell bonds that they need to sell to fund that program. [1:28:47] Um, you know, they're able to, to primarily lend to first-time homebuyers, to police officers, to, uh, educators, to nurses. They have a PINS program that, that really highlights those groups. Um, and they're able to lend at lower rates, which has been a real big, um, driver for their increase in activity because when rates go up, they're able to lend at lower rates because of the way the mortgage revenue bonds work. [1:29:12] Mm-hmm. [1:29:12] They can sell those. They're tax-free municipal bonds, and so they can sell them at a lower coupon value, which means that they can lend that money back out at a lower rate. So, um, things like that that really promote homeownership, that make it, uh, more able for, uh, more people to buy a home, I think is what all of us would like to have. Certainly what I would like to have. [1:29:36] Super. Well, I appreciate your update. Thank you for being here. Thank all the- [1:29:42] You're welcome [1:29:42] ... presenters. It was really great. [1:29:44] Thank you. Good question. [1:29:44] Ray, we're gonna do this offline- [1:29:45] Offline [1:29:45] ... because we got other meetings. We're late. [1:29:47] Oh. [1:29:48] Sorry. Um- [1:29:49] I won't run [1:29:49] ... but, uh, no, thank you very, very much. Uh, uh, we kept y'all longer- [1:29:54] Thank you [1:29:55] ... because the topic is so interesting, and the presentations were excellent. Thank you so much for being here. It's always one of my favorites. I don't mind telling. So, uh, meeting adjourned. Thank you.