--- title: House Judiciary Juvenile Committee, March 23, 2026 collection: meetings id: 2026-03-23/house-judiciary-juvenile cite_as: House Judiciary Juvenile Committee, March 23, 2026, video https://vimeo.com/1175275468 (machine transcript by Georgia Commons) canonical_url: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-03-23/house-judiciary-juvenile md_url: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-03-23/house-judiciary-juvenile.md text_url: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-03-23/house-judiciary-juvenile/text source_url: https://vimeo.com/1175275468 date: 2026-03-23 status: machine transcript corpus_version: meetings-2026-10-23-8c15ead0f18d license: Machine transcript and summaries by Georgia Commons from the General Assembly's public video; the video stays on the General Assembly's Vimeo channel; see about.md publisher: Georgia Commons, an independent project of Georgia Civic Data. Not the State of Georgia. Not legal advice. up: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-03-23.md previous: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-03-23/house-health.md next: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/2026-03-23/house-judiciary.md index: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/index.md chamber: House body: House Judiciary Juvenile Committee body_url: https://georgiacommons.org/meetings/house-judiciary-juvenile.md meeting_kind: committee session: 2025-2026 Regular Session start_time: 2026-03-23T16:00:00-04:00 location: 606 CLOB duration_seconds: 3974.0 video_id: 1175275468 video_title: 03.23.26 Judiciary Juvenile agenda_url: https://www.legis.ga.gov/api/document/agendas/house/Juvenile Justice%2F032326 Meeting Notice.pdf bills_discussed: - SB 8 summaries_model: gpt-6.1-sol transcript_turns: 176 --- # House Judiciary Juvenile Committee, March 23, 2026 House Judiciary Juvenile Committee; March 23, 2026; 2025-2026 Regular Session. Video, on the General Assembly's Vimeo channel: https://vimeo.com/1175275468. Agenda: https://www.legis.ga.gov/api/document/agendas/house/Juvenile Justice%2F032326 Meeting Notice.pdf. > This is a machine transcript of the General Assembly's video, made by a speech-recognition model. It is not an official record and can mishear words, names, and numbers. Speakers are not identified. The video is the record: every timestamp links to the moment it plays. ## Summary written by Georgia Commons Written by gpt-6.1-sol from the transcript below. It is not part of the record. Quote the transcript or the video, not the summary. The committee considered a revised version of [SB 8](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/sb8) covering remote online notarization and penalties for practicing law without a license. The presenter described identity checks, recordings and other safeguards for online notarizations. A legislator supported stronger penalties to protect clients facing language barriers. Two commercial real estate attorneys supported online notarization but raised concerns about broad liability and increased costs from the penalty provisions. A committee member also questioned whether people offering help in good faith could face felony charges. The committee approved the substitute with one member opposed. ## Bills discussed (1) Each account was written by gpt-6.1-sol from the stretch of the transcript it names. The bill's number is said in that stretch, unless it was the only bill on a committee's agenda. ### SB 8. Courts; arrest warrant requirements when juvenile courts are acting as courts of inquiry; provide [SB 8](https://georgiacommons.org/bills/2025-2026/sb8) (2025-2026 Regular Session). From [0:26:47](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=1607s), turns 4 to 175. The presenter said the substitute would allow remote online notarization using identity checks, electronic signatures and recordings retained for 10 years. The presenter described training, a $2,000 bond, a $25 maximum fee and exclusions for wills and certain trusts. The presenter said remote access would help overseas military personnel and others unable to attend in person, while preserving attorney supervision of Georgia real estate closings. Asked about obtaining recordings to contest a transaction, the presenter was unsure but suggested litigation could provide access. Members suggested a $50 fee and an on-screen warning distinguishing notaries from attorneys; neither became an adopted amendment. The presenter said practicing law without a license could become a felony, while the revised provision covering corporate personnel would impose a high and aggravated misdemeanor and add a knowledge standard. Another legislator supported stronger penalties, describing clients facing language barriers who mistook law-office staff for attorneys. Two commercial real estate attorneys supported online notarization but warned that broad liability could affect banks and title companies, increase costs and slow closings. A committee member said much of the disputed language already existed in law. Another member raised concerns about criminalizing good-faith assistance. The presenter responded that unauthorized practice was already prohibited. The committee approved the substitute with one opposed. ## Transcript (176 turns) [0:26:12](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=1572s) Good afternoon. Good afternoon. Well, there we go. Good afternoon. Welcome to Judiciary Juvenile. Glad everyone's here. You've-- There's more of you in the audience than there are of us up here right now. Um, there are more on the way. Judiciary... I'm sorry, um, Senate rules is still in progress, and looks like a lot of our members are currently there. But we are gonna go ahead and proceed. Um, Representative Gullett, it's up to you if you would like to present from there. It looks like you're kind of comfortable. [0:26:42](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=1602s) I'll do either way, whatever you want. [0:26:42](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=1602s) All right. What number are you down there? [0:26:44](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=1604s) Uh, twenty-four. [0:26:45](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=1605s) All right. And today we are taking up Senate Bill 8, um, which has been revised. So Representative Gullett, if you could go ahead with your presentation. [0:26:54](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=1614s) Sure. Thank you, uh, Chairwoman. What this bill is, is something that I've been working on, I think this is my sixth year potentially. Um, this year this, this same bill, um, with some slight differences passed, um, Judiciary Committee. I'll, I'll go through that. I'll go through the bill. I'll say what was in the Judiciary Committee, um, that it passed with, what it is now, and then I'm happy to answer any questions for it. But let me first tell you a little bit about remote notary. Um, remote online notary is, is for the simplistic view of it, non-attorneys, it's basically Zoom for notarizations. [0:27:31](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=1651s) Um, and the way that we do that is through the definition of what, um, uh, in-person is, so in, in the presence of. And so you change the definition of in the presence of to include people remotely, and there's a lot of, there's a lot of good things related to, and I'll go through about how, um, some of the safety measures that are in place for remote online notarization. Um, but just for the layman, um, in this committee there, notary is really just a witness of a signature. That's all it is really doing. Today, traditional notary in the Notarial Act doesn't have a journal. [0:28:04](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=1684s) It doesn't have any way of, uh, of, of... There's no requirement that you journal what you notaried. And so you may have notarized something, um, a year ago. It may end up going to court or challenging that. There's no today traditional notary. There's no journaling required. Good notaries will journal, but it's not a requirement. Can cause issues. So let me tell you a little bit about what remote online notarization does, um, and kind of the process. So first, um, the mechanics of it are you'd sign, the user signs into a secure video platform. [0:28:36](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=1716s) Um, they would access a, a purpose-built RON platform. There, there are tons of them out there. Um, it's not just a, not just a general video call. Um, and this bill will define communication technologies. Uh, I think that's like line fifty- uh, fifty-five is where it starts. Communication technologies as an electronic device allowing the notary and signer to communicate simultaneously by sight or sound, uh, sight and sound for the accommodations for vision, hearing, and speech impairments. Um, and then there are three identity verification components of it. [0:29:08](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=1748s) Um, that's three eighty-nine maybe. [0:29:13](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=1753s) Sorry, it's a little bit... The numbers are not quite the same what I had before, but three eighty-nine remote presentation. So three parts to that. Remote presentation, that's where you give a valid government-issued ID, uh, passport or driver's license. Um, credentialed analysis, this is a third-party service validating the ID against public proprietary data, and that's line fif- like sixty-one maybe. Um, and then identity proofing, that's authentication confirming the signer's i- identity. So that'd basically be like, uh, when you get a, when you get a credit card or you get, do something related to your credit, and they'll, they'll ask you questions, maybe which street did you not live on or, um, of these five choices. [0:29:48](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=1788s) They ask you a few, few questions of your, your father's middle name, things like that. That's part of, uh, identity proofing. Um, step three would be the live notarization on video. So, um, a Georgia-based notary watches the signer execute a document electronically and applies their digital signature and electronic seal. Um, this bill redefines appear and personally appear. Uh, I think that's lines forty-six, somewhere in there, forty-five. [0:30:17](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=1817s) Just so y'all are following along. Yeah, forty-four is where it starts. I'm sorry. Um, to expressly include interaction via compliant communication technology legally satisfying any statute requiring personal appearance. Um, and then the audio visual recording and journal entry. So, um, lines three fifteen-ish, um, the entire session is recorded and immediately transmitted to a third-party repository. A detailed journal entry is, is simultaneously created, and both are held for ten years. So you get online, you prove who you are multiple different ways. [0:30:50](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=1850s) It's recorded. Um, the, it's electronically, um, sealed, added to the document. Um, this journal is kept for ten years. So there's a lot more safety, um, related to, um, a remote online notary from a, from a fraud perspective than from a traditional notary. Okay, let's kind of go section by section, and then we'll, uh, we'll go from there. So section one one, it grants the Georgia Superior Court's Clerk Cooperative Authority the power to issue technical standards for remote online notarization pursuant to Title forty-five. [0:31:25](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=1885s) That's twenty-seven through thirty-seven, uh, lines. Section one point two provides for key definitions, uh, in the bill. There are twenty-three new defined terms added to forty-five seventeen one. Um, these are things like communication technology, credential analysis, digital- digital signature, identity proofing, repository. Those are all kind of things we just talked about just a little bit ago. Um, section one three, I think it begins on line one fifty-three, allows an electronic seal to be used for electronic in-person notarization or remote online notarization. [0:31:57](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=1917s) That's, uh, again, one fifty-three. So not only can you use electronic seal for someone, something that's remotely done, you can also use it if you're sitting side by side instead of giving your stamp that you might have today or your, uh, the press. You can actually just assign, add your seal electronically. Um, section one point f- uh, one four, um, in documenting the notarial act, a notary public shall sign digitally for electronic in-person or RON or by hand, uh, by hand in ink in all other cases. That's line 179 through 185. [0:32:28](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=1948s) Um, section one f- five, uh, this is the heart of the bill. This adds four new code sections that starts at line 187. Um, first off is the, uh, GSCCCA's standard mandate. Um, they must adopt standards for remote online notarization, um, prior to January 1st, 2026. I think that's still in this version. Uh, line 189. [0:32:54](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=1974s) It, it says January 1st, 2027, sorry. Um, 2026 would be a little late, wouldn't it? So, uh yeah. Um, so they gotta, they gotta adopt the standards. The standards must consider, um, MISMO and the NAS- NASS frameworks. Um, application appointment. Appointment as a notary public is a prerequisite for RON, so you gotta have, meet all the cri- all the criteria that you would have, uh, as a notary public. So you gotta be at least a notary public before you become a remote online notary public, if that makes sense. [0:33:24](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2004s) That's, uh, that's lines 200. Um, the applicant must complete a, um, superior court's clerk authority course and pass an exam. That's lines 202 through 210. Um, they must disclose a specific technology provider and repository they're gonna use. Uh, and once approved, the notary must maintain a $2,000 surety bond. Um, the notary must maintain residential domicile and physical presence here in Georgia, um, and they must notify the clerk's authority if any change in technology repository provider occurs. [0:33:59](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2039s) Um, line 290, this is the electronic journaling and audiovisual archive. This is, again, each remote online notary session must generate a journal entry containing eight required elements. Um, journal entry must, uh, be retained for a minimum of 10 years. Audiovisual recording must immediately be transmitted to the repository, retained for 10 years, and they must maintain a personal backup as well. So again, this is, uh, well thought out. Thankfully, um, when I tried to do it initially, we were kind of bleeding edge, now we're well behind the curve of knowing what works around, uh, different states. [0:34:32](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2072s) Section 1-5, um, this is where RON can be performed. Um, Georgia-based notaries may s- serve signers located in Georgia, anywhere in the US, or outside the US if the document relates to US property proceedings or transactions. Um, so you can, um, you can do anything in Georgia. Again, if another state will rec- recognize it, you can do it other places. But, um, you can do basically notarize anything in Georgia except for wills, trusts, and estates. That's the one carve-out we have today. Um, identity verification requirements, that's, um, uh, line 382 through 411. [0:35:05](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2105s) All three verification methods are mandatory. Um, technology provider must present a certificate of compliance before operating in Georgia, and, um, a compliant remote online notary act satisfies any Georgia law requiring personal appearance before a notary, except for wills, trusts, and estates. Again, that's just changing the definition of, um, in-person. And let's see, four, line 412 through 424, fees and credential security. Maximum fee, $25 per remote online notarization. [0:35:36](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2136s) Um, upon commission termination, notary must destroy all digital credentials, and unauthorized destruction or theft of digital credentials is a misdemeanor in this bill. Um, line 425 through 433, attorney supervision preserved. Um, we state nothing in this article alters the requirement that a licensed Georgia attorney supervise a real estate closing, uh, for property in Georgia, and a non-attorney remote online notary is prohibited from rendering legal advice or services. Um, again, that's important here as well. [0:36:06](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2166s) Um, line 434, effects of RON acts. Public officials and government entities shall accept, um, electronic signatures in RON notarized documents as originals. Out-of-state, uh, RON acts have the same legal effect in Georgia as performed, as Georgia-performed acts, and RON is expressly prohibited from wills, codicils, and, uh, testament- testamentary trusts. So wills, trusts, and estates, basically. Just, again, excluding that. Section 2-1, um, amends the Fair Business Practices Act to, uh, add a new unfair trade practice knowingly presenting a one-to-four family residential real estate document for recording when a presenter knew it was, resulted in unauthorized practice of law. [0:36:47](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2207s) Um, section 2-2, any instrument presented to the clerk requiring official, unofficial witness may, may be admitted to record if authorized signatures and seals are present. So basically, um, any instrument to the clerk... So basically, a clerk has no duty to examine circumstances or witnessing. So this is just saying as long as it's presented to the clerk as a, as a, as a notarial act, and the things that are there, they don't need to verify, um, the circumstances of the witness. [0:37:17](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2237s) Section 2-3 provides that unofficial witness requirement for deed execution is satisfied electronically if the witness is physically pres- present in Georgia and sees a signer electronically execute via compliant communication technology. Um, and section 2-4 require, records, uh, records of any audiovisual recording of a remote online notarization process are prohibited from public disclosure under Georgia Open Records Act. Um, little bit about re- requirements for becoming a remote online notary. Um, you must be appointed as a notary public. [0:37:48](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2268s) Um, you must be compliant... Uh, must complete a course, um, from the clerk's authority and pass it. Um, submit an application to the clerk of superior court in the county of your residence. You must pay a fee equal to the standard notary, uh, application fee. Uh, once approved, again, you need a $2,000, uh, bond. Um, Georgia residents must notify them if anything changes, notify the clerk's authority if anything changes. Uh, they must maintain a journal, like we talked about, for at least 10 years if it's a remote online notary. Again, this doesn't touch traditional notaries. [0:38:19](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2299s) If you're a traditional notary today, we don't change the journaling, although I wish we would. That's just a bigger ask than we, than we can do at the moment. Um, and then, uh, we create an audiovisual recording That's, uh, immediately transmitted to our repository for 10 years. Um, there's additional section here, and it's, it's added partially because of remote onli- online notary and the, and the worries, um, about, about that, but some things that people have seen. Um, but also, um... [0:38:49](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2329s) Let me find the section. But also some, some people have been taken advantage of, um, in the state by people who are not attorneys, um, especially in the, the... Especially in, in some of the minority communities. Um, I'm not sure what the word for notary w- lawyer is in Spanish, but I've heard it's close to the word notary in Spanish. And, um, there's been some people who've taken advantage of some folks. Um, and so this is, if I can find the line related to it, um, there's an unlicensed practice of law section here. [0:39:23](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2363s) Uh, give me one minute. [0:39:32](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2372s) Yeah, it might be the very end over here. So, um, section, uh, section three dash one. Um, today if you practice, if you practice law as a, uh, if you practice law as a non-lawyer today, it's a misdemeanor. Um, what this will do is it says if you, um, if you practice law today, if you get caught practicing unlicensed practice of law today, um, it can be a felony if you're the person doing it, um, and should be punished, uh, by imprisonment no le- not less than one year, more than three. [0:40:08](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2408s) Um, again, this is because not, not only for remote and online notary, that's what they're gonna talk about a, a little bit, I'm sure. But, uh, also because people are being taken advantage of by pretending they might be in, they might be a notary, or they might just be someone in a, in a community who just says, "You're in, you're in... You're here. You've gone through some problems. You have... Your son's arrested." I'm just making up a sit- situation. Your son's arrested, you're panicked. Someone comes to you and says, "I can help. I'm a lawyer." Uh, they take your money, and they're not a lawyer, and they're gone with your money. Um, this would create that as a felony. Today, it's a misdemeanor. [0:40:39](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2439s) Um, that's for the person doing the act. Uh, and then if you look at fi- line 580, every officer, trustee, director, agent, or employee of the corporation, uh, or voluntary association who directly or indirectly engages in the acts prohibited in this basically unlicensed practice of law, um, that's now gonna be a, a misdemeanor of high and aggravated nature. Um, in judiciary, this passed as a felony. It wasn't a mi- misdemeanor of high and aggravated nature. Um, it's been lowered to that. And also, um, there's a known or should have known. [0:41:13](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2473s) So if you see fi- line 583, performing the acts, prohibited acts, or knew or should have known of the corporation, the knew or should have known, um, has now been added as a lesser, uh... Like, you, before, whether you knew it or not, you were, you were guilty of a felony. Now you sh- known or should have known, um, as a lesser act. Again, those both passed judiciary without these components in there. It was a felony, and it didn't matter if you knew or should have known previously. So it's, it's weakened that a bit in section D. Um, but that's generally it. [0:41:44](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2504s) If you're in the House, you've been here a little while, we've passed this bill out of the House, uh, three different years. It made it to conference committee two different years. Um, it's something that, again, been working on a long time, but I'm happy to answer questions. And I know I try to go in pretty depth because I know this is not normal for this committee, uh, to, to discuss, but I'm happy to answer your questions related to it. [0:42:05](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2525s) Well, we do some pretty in-depth things in here, so this was a nice change of pace. Um, thank you for presenting this. Um, I know I've been a real estate agent, real estate broker for a long time, and I know during the Great Recession, there were several people who I did cash for keys, which means they're getting foreclosed. And if they leave the house in decent condition, they could get some money from the mortgage company. I was surprised the number of people who told me that, um, attorneys had come to their home, and they'd signed papers. [0:42:36](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2556s) And I'd said, "Well, an attorney came?" And when we came down to it, it, it was a notary, and they were under the impression attorney had come to their home, and- [0:42:43](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2563s) Yeah [0:42:43](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2563s) ... some of them, um, indicated that maybe they didn't fully understand what they were always signing, so- [0:42:48](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2568s) Right [0:42:48](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2568s) ... certainly appreciate that. Um, are there any questions for the bill's author? Representative Santos, please go ahead. [0:42:56](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2576s) Thank you. I actually would like to receive this in PDF if it's possible. [0:43:01](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2581s) Sure. [0:43:02](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2582s) Thank you. [0:43:05](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2585s) All right. Well, that was a pretty easy one. I'll see if I can send it right over to you. All right. Anyone else have any questions for the bill's author? Representative Panitch. [0:43:14](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2594s) Thank you, Representative. I remember doing this during the pandemic, and I know it's a little bit different, but it made life so much easier, and I couldn't understand why we had to go back to the old way of going in front of somebody. But I've also, um, subpoenaed notaries where I thought that they weren't face-to-face with the person, and turned out that they weren't. So I like this idea that there's a recording. Is there a... How does one get the recording if they want to contest? [0:43:44](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2624s) Do, do you know, or is it- [0:43:46](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2626s) I don't know. I'm not sure. [0:43:48](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2628s) Okay. [0:43:48](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2628s) Um, it's not open to subject record, or not subject to open records, but I'm sure that you have a cause if it is something related to, um, litigation of some sort that you could- [0:43:57](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2637s) Yeah [0:43:57](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2637s) ... you could get it. [0:43:59](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2639s) Thank you for bringing this. [0:44:00](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2640s) Mm-hmm. And I think from the, from the pandemic, I had this bill 2019. Um, it was a very different version. It was, it was a couple pages long. I thought it was a good version. Uh, I thought it was gonna go to technology and innovation, and it goes to judiciary, and, uh, it's at least gave me be, allowed me to be very comfortable in judiciary, um, by to be able to present a bill like this and, and work through it so many years. Um, but, uh, when the pandemic happened, I thought, man, this is definitely gonna be the year for- [0:44:25](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2665s) Right [0:44:26](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2666s) ... uh, notary, and it, and it didn't happen. Um, we did make it to conference committee that year. But, um, that was an executive order- I think that was remote ink notary at the time and a temporary thing, but we shouldn't... You know, on that point, at that time, people couldn't sit in the same room in order to do a closing. Um, and most of the time these are closings that happen for, for mo- you know, for notaries. That, that generally is it. Um, but we also shouldn't, if, if you're a military overseas and, uh, you wanna close on some property in Georgia, you shouldn't have to come to Georgia, fly here in person. [0:45:02](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2702s) Uh, if you're an elderly person in another state closing this property, you should be able to figure that out without having to come here, uh, in person. I think that's really important. So thank you for the question. [0:45:12](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2712s) Or do a mail away. [0:45:13](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2713s) Or do a mail away. Yeah. [0:45:14](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2714s) Yeah. Sometimes- [0:45:15](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2715s) That, that, that's... Yeah [0:45:15](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2715s) ... gets everyone very nervous. [0:45:17](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2717s) Right. [0:45:18](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2718s) All right. Thank you. All right. Um, Representative Fincher, please go ahead with your question. [0:45:23](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2723s) I noticed on, uh, line 413, you set down a fee of $25 per online notarization. Now they've gotta go through a lot of rigamarole to get qualified. They've gotta have, um, bonding. Uh, would y'all wouldn't consider a, a friendlier, friendly amendment to make that $50? [0:45:43](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2743s) Yeah. I don't, I don't know. I think, um, I agree with you. I mean, I want, I want these notaries to be there and to, to be accessible. I also, you know, uh, inflation has affected a lot of things. I hate to know that, you know, to get someone to witness your signature, it costs you $50 to do that. I'm not sure what a traditional notary cost is today. I don't know. It might be in the bill and I don't know it, but I missed it. But, uh, it seems it's, it's allowed a little bit higher than tr- you know, traditional notary. Um, and you do have additional costs that go along with it, but at the time, we... At the time then, it was, uh, 25 was like a reasonable fee. [0:46:17](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2777s) Um, think of, you know, uh... I'm not sure if that's friendly or not, but maybe I'm not against it. How about that? I, I don't think that kills the bill. It guts the bill. Um, just seems high. I'd hate to pay $50 for that. [0:46:32](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2792s) That could be high because oftentimes people use notaries for a variety of things. Um, I know just getting licenses renewed, you have to get a notary to sign oftentimes. That would be, could be over cumbersome for some people, but thank you for that. All right. Um, Representative Santos. [0:46:52](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2812s) Thank you. Where are the recordings being stored? The ones that are, um, I believe you said 10 years. [0:47:00](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2820s) Yeah. I, I missed the very first part of your question. I'm sorry. [0:47:02](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2822s) Where are they being stored? [0:47:04](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2824s) Yeah. [0:47:04](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2824s) The recordings of- [0:47:04](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2824s) So you have to have a repository as part of this, part of this. [0:47:07](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2827s) Okay. [0:47:07](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2827s) So they go to a... Basically, the cloud, um, would be the easiest way. But each, each vendor of whatever notary vendor there is has their own storage opportunities there. So it's stored online. [0:47:20](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2840s) Okay. And may I further? [0:47:23](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2843s) Sure. [0:47:23](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2843s) Um, and I do wanna thank you for this bill. Um, and I certainly wanna protect the residents that are searching for a notary and not an attorney, right? The distinctive difference. Um, because this is online, what are your thoughts on maybe putting something on, uh, the screen that says, "Not an attorney, does not give legal advice"- [0:47:43](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2863s) Well- [0:47:43](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2863s) ... so it's clear? [0:47:45](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2865s) So I would... My, I think the worry is there, there oftentimes will be an attorney online too. [0:47:50](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2870s) Mm-hmm. [0:47:50](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2870s) So if there's a closing that's happening, say, remotely, the attorney could be sitting next to you. [0:47:54](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2874s) Mm-hmm. [0:47:55](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2875s) Um, so it's not always, not all of these things are related to, uh, to things that you need an attorney for. [0:48:02](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2882s) Mm-hmm. [0:48:02](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2882s) Um, I don't s- I don't believe that, uh... I don't know. I'm not sure. I'm not sure how easy that is for the vendor if there's no vendors who could offer that, and then we're just stuck without a, you know, with a rule that doesn't allow it. But I think we could encourage the, the court's clerk's authority when they're writing rules and regs to maybe say something like that, to say, "This is important, um, for you to add." But, yeah, I don't have an opinion on it. How about that? I, I, I just don't know if it's feasible or not. [0:48:26](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2906s) Okay. Well, that helps. [0:48:28](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2908s) Yeah. [0:48:28](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2908s) Thank you. [0:48:28](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2908s) Thank you. [0:48:29](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2909s) Mm-hmm. [0:48:33](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2913s) Thank you. Representative Dubnik, do you have a question or comment? [0:48:36](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2916s) Madam Chair, I was just gonna say at the appropriate time. [0:48:40](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2920s) All right, then. Let me turn my mic on. Thank you. All right. I think we've got two people who wanted to speak on this. Um, let's see. All right. Representative Hong, I bet there's somewhere else you've got to be, so we're gonna let you speak for just a moment. I'll take your motion in just a moment, Chair Dubnik. Thank you. [0:48:56](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2936s) Yes. Yes, ma'am. Thank you. [0:48:57](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2937s) Is this where I speak? [0:48:59](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2939s) That's fine. Go. [0:48:59](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2939s) We are on the, the other side. Thank you, Chair Lady and members of the committee. I just wanted to come in and, um, speak on the, um, the attorney portion, so part three of this bill. Um, wanted to bring attention to this committee about an issue that we've been having in our, uh, especially Asian-American community with attorneys that are, uh, attorney's offices that are hiring people, um, because of the language barrier. [0:49:30](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=2970s) And many of the community members do not know that they're not an attorney. Um, they are giving legal advice, um, and these clients believe that they are attorneys from beginning to end of their case, never having spoken to an attorney. Um, this is very prevalent in our community, and we wanna make sure that this is, um... We're taking this very seriously. Um, I know state bar has looked into it, et cetera, but unfortunately, we haven't seen the state bar doing much about it. [0:50:05](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3005s) And I've had many attorneys, and I've had, frankly, many clients because I speak Korean, who have come to me and said, "I thought the entire time I was talking to this person at this law office, and I thought they were an, an attorney the whole time, and then come to find out they're not. And I'm paying for an attorney. I should be able to talk to an attorney." So I find that this section to be very important and, um, and very favorable for this bill, and I'll take any questions. [0:50:34](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3034s) All right. Thank you so much for that testimony. Are there any questions for Vice Chair Hong regarding this bill? All right. Thank you so much. [0:50:41](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3041s) Thank you. [0:50:41](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3041s) Certainly appreciate you being here. Um, all right. So I'm very fearful of losing a quorum at this point, given there's a lot of other meetings going on. So, um, time is your... Time is not your friend today. Be as brief as possible. Amy Huskins, I believe you wanted to speak in reference to the bill. [0:51:01](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3061s) Yes, I'm here. We're together. [0:51:03](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3063s) Okay. That's fine. You can come on up to the podium. [0:51:06](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3066s) Sure. [0:51:06](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3066s) And just tell us, um, who you're with. [0:51:10](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3070s) At least we're here. [0:51:10](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3070s) At the podium. Yes, ma'am. Thank you. [0:51:17](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3077s) Hello. Thank you. My name is Amy Huskins. I'm a commercial real estate partner with the international law firm of Duane Morris in the, in the Atlanta office. And for about seven years, I was also the State Bar of Georgia's legislative co-chair for the Real Property Law Section. And in that regard, Representative Gullett, uh, was so kind to ask me and some other people in our group in September of 2019 to assist in the first portion of this bill, the RON bill. [0:51:48](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3108s) And so over the years, we were able to work together to fine-tune that portion of the bill. I'm not... I'm leaving out the UPL portion at this moment, okay? And so it took years to get to the point where this first portion of the bill to do with remote online notary is a really perfect, in my opinion, um, document. And I will talk about UPL in just a second. And just so everybody knows, this includes both commercial real estate, which is what I do, and Lauren Foster with me, we do that. [0:52:22](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3142s) We do, don't do residential real estate. So our remarks will be focused on commercial real estate transactions. For example, every commercial real estate transaction that I've ever been involved with, every single party to that transaction has maybe more than one lawyer. Every single commercial real estate transaction, there's not a problem with not being represented by counsel. And so that's part one. Part two is I would love to have you all move forward with the portion of this bill that involves a remote online notary. [0:52:58](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3178s) I'm very concerned as a commercial real estate partner at an international law firm about the portion that has to do with UPL. And, um, I do wanna focus, um, on, um... And I'm so- I'm sorry, I don't have the page with me, but it's, it's section 3.1, and it's section D, which involves a bunch of our commercial real estate law firm clients. [0:53:29](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3209s) Oh, let's drop it. Thank you so much. Um, and this, uh, we've talked with many, many, many people. Representative Gullett has talked with us, and that is there's an... That, this paragraph D, as in dog, starting with line 580, um, is viewed by many, many people, including presidents of banks in the State of Georgia, as including bank directors who may be deemed affiliates who would be covered by this misdemeanor. And so we've gotta be very, very careful, and I just wanna make sure that, 'cause I'm, don't wanna spend too much time here, that we are quite concerned about section D because of this broad, broad language. [0:54:09](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3249s) And frankly, I know this is not gonna happen. I would love for y'all, because I'm so proud of the, uh, the work we've all done with the RON bill, which is portions one and two, to not include at all section three, but I know that's probably not likely. Um, I'm open to answer questions, and Lauren Foster is with me as well. [0:54:31](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3271s) All right. Thank you. You do have a few questions. Uh, Representative Panitch, please go ahead with your question. [0:54:36](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3276s) All right. Thank you for coming. I don't practice commercial, so- [0:54:38](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3278s) Okay [0:54:38](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3278s) ... I'm having a hard time. Can you give me a fact pattern that concerns you related to section D? [0:54:45](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3285s) Yes. Because there are, um, the language when Representative Gullett and some of us in this audience, three weeks ago, we testified on this bill in another judiciary committee, it was, it was less tight than it is now. It's still there as, um, the words direct- and I'm sorry, I don't, it's directly or indirectly. That portion is concerning to us because the... And I don't know if there's anybody from the banks who are gonna be speaking today. [0:55:17](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3317s) We're quite concerned that it could be not just paralegals in a law firm. A paralegal's not a licensed lawyer, we get that, but it could be real estate agents, banks that make loans. And because this language is so broad, if there was, heaven forbid, not a lawyer involved, let's say, in a residential real estate transaction, that's more likely to be the case, and not what I do for a living. But we still think that there's, it's very, very broad, and we think it's quite concerning. [0:55:46](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3346s) Can I follow up? I'm still not getting it. Can you just give me a f- like, this person has a, has a transaction and does X, and then- [0:55:54](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3354s) Okay. Um, okay. Um, for example, let's say that there is a bank loan, and, um, there's somehow, and it's probably gonna be, like I said, in a residential transaction, and there's somehow not a lawyer. It's, well, there's an argument or an allegation there's, that there's not a lawyer involved because as you all know, in residential real estate transactions, it's most likely many, many percent of the time that there's one lawyer, and it's the bank's lawyer. [0:56:28](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3388s) Right. [0:56:29](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3389s) It's not anybody else's lawyer, unlike what I do for a living, where everybody has a lawyer. And so is there a way that this could be winnowed down? Um, to take out the directly or indirectly language, the director language, you see where I'm going with this, and, and target it just for the people who are directly in charge of a real estate transaction, who supervise the transaction. And that i- the word supervise, actually, there have been so many iterations of this kind of bill floating out, I mean, literally, since 2019 that Representative Gullett and I and some- many others have worked on, that the term supervision is really important in the context of the current laws in effect. [0:57:14](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3434s) And r- remember, there are laws on the books, there are statutes regarding the practice of law, and then the Georgia Supreme Court is the ultimate arbiter of whether somebody has violated a, a statute or not. [0:57:31](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3451s) And I'm gonna ask Lauren to come up, if you don't mind. [0:57:34](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3454s) Well, she's our second speaker, so- Oh, okay ... or third speaker on this, and our final. Okay. So if you'd like to come up- Okay ... and briefly testify. Um, I believe, Representative Gullett, though, before you leave, Ms. Haskins, do you wanna ask your question? [0:57:46](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3466s) Yeah. I just wanna say thank you for all the work. I know we worked on this thing for a long time. [0:57:50](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3470s) A long time. [0:57:50](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3470s) You've put a lot of, uh- [0:57:52](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3472s) Thank you [0:57:52](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3472s) ... sweat and blood and tears in this thing, too, and, uh, you've been a, you've been a huge asset to us, so thank you for that. [0:57:57](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3477s) Oh, that's so kind. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Um, Ms. Foster, if you'll come up and tell us who you're with, please. [0:58:06](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3486s) I'm Lauren Foster. I'm a commercial real estate attorney at the law firm Parker Poe, and with Amy, I'm a member of the Georgia Commercial Real Estate Coalition, which we formed, um, so that the commercial real estate industry, separate from residential, would have its own voice in these type of things. And, um, like I said, I, I do commercial real estate at my desk all day, and I'm not a public speaker, so my apologies. But, um, we felt really strongly about coming down here to speak on this particular issue. Like, like Amy said, with regard to the UPL sections of the bill in, um, section 3, we, along with, um, some of the major title insurance companies who assist in conducting commercial closings, are worried that creating these type of really extreme penalties, um, would have a chilling effect on business and closings on the commercial side if people think that they might be subject to liability for these very high fines, um, and felonies and jail time. [0:59:10](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3550s) And maybe that won't be enough to chill transactions itself, but there will be increased costs, um, to cover for that risk, and it will slow d- the process of closings down. And we know that Georgia has been voted the best state in the country to do business for 12 years, and we wanna see that continue. So we're just worried that, um, as much as I think a lot of people's hearts are in the right place to protect on perhaps the residential side, that it, the way that this is written is overbroad to include commercial closings, which are radically different than the way residential closings occur. [0:59:46](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3586s) Um, and we also just wanna emphasize that the Supreme Court is already the ultimate arbiter of matters of UPL, and so we don't feel that it would be appropriate to, um, take that jurisdiction from them and put it into, um, a bill of this nature. Thank you. [1:00:06](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3606s) All right. Thank you. I do believe you have a question, if you'll stand for it. Um, R- Burchett, please go ahead. [1:00:11](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3611s) Thank you, M- Madam Chairman. Uh, thank you, Ms. Foster, for the testimony. Are you aware that this, uh, lines 580 through 591 are all e- are exactly except for, um, without 15-1954 and 15-1955, already, that it, that is already the law? [1:00:29](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3629s) When you say that, I'm sorry, what do you mean? [1:00:31](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3631s) If you go to, um, excuse me, OCGA, um, 1590-56, uh, the, we just basically copied that law and put it in this bill. [1:00:45](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3645s) If, uh, I think I'm understanding what you're saying, that, that you copied what law, though? [1:00:50](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3650s) Copied the current law. [1:00:51](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3651s) Right. So- [1:00:52](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3652s) Which, which, which, which speaks to the indirectly and the directly piece. So currently, are you, do you feel like you're breaking the law? [1:01:00](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3660s) I don't know if I should admit that on the record. Just kidding. Um, we just, we just feel like that it's overbroad, and it, it should apply differently to commercial. Um, they shouldn't be treated the same. If there were ways to go back and, you know, amend this, like we've been in the, in the works with for a long time, we've always wanted to see a carve-out for commercial. And, um, we don't want to subject our partners who are in the title companies and the banks and these related industries to any of this sort of liability or just fear of liability. [1:01:36](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3696s) So but you would agree that this law mirrors the current law, and if you are already having a... Do you have that fear now with the current law? [1:01:48](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3708s) Um, no, but I'm not able to speak off the cuff exactly to comparing these two laws, so my apologies. [1:01:54](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3714s) Okay. Very good. And, and I appreciate your testimony. Thank you. [1:01:57](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3717s) Thank you. [1:01:57](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3717s) Yes. Thank you so much for being here today. Thank all of everyone for being here today- [1:02:01](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3721s) Thank you [1:02:01](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3721s) ... on this issue. Um, at this time, I believe there was a motion that was mentioned a little earlier. Representative Dubnik. [1:02:10](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3730s) Thank you, Madam Chair. I move that Senate Bill 8, LC443546 by committee substitute do pass. [1:02:16](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3736s) All right. I have a motion. Do I have a second? [1:02:18](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3738s) Second. [1:02:19](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3739s) All right. Motion and second. Do we have any discussion? [1:02:24](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3744s) All right. No discussion? All right. Oh, we do have discussion. Representative Sanchez, please go ahead. [1:02:29](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3749s) So I share the concerns with the punishment, just because there's a thin line, um, between people wanting to, in good faith, um- ... do the work that they're supposed to be doing. But I think from my experience working in the courts, uh, in the clerk's office, you know, you're not supposed to give legal advice, but sometimes you just know, and you may accidentally share or overshare. And I think that that could also be the case in that, um, in other areas. [1:03:02](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3782s) So I, I'm just concerned about people that are in good faith wanting to do their job, and then they realize, "Oh, I gave legal advice, and now I'm subject to a felony." So that's just my concern. [1:03:17](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3797s) I could see that. One thing, um, our good friends with the Georgia Association of Realtors, Betsy Bradford's here with us today. But I know that there are penalties, and the first thing in real estate school they teach you, whether it's commercial or residential, is, "Do not pretend to be an attorney. You are not an attorney." Um, Betsy, is that yay or nay? [1:03:38](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3818s) Yes. [1:03:38](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3818s) All right. Thank you. All right. Um, Representative Gullett, is there a comment you'd like to make? [1:03:45](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3825s) Yes. Um, I, I appreciate that concern. I think that, um, if you're a lawyer, this mostly doesn't affect you 'cause you're a lawyer who's practicing law. It's those of us who pretend we're practicing law who are, who are most at risk, especially on the felony piece. But that is current law today. Um, and so definitely they're, they're right. Commercial clients are sophisticated clients. There's no doubt about it. They're sophisticated clients with a bunch of lawyers making, you know, those, those deals are big, big d- big money deals. [1:04:16](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3856s) But in Georgia today, if you, if you move real estate on a Georgia parcel today, it requires a lawyer or an attorney closing state. And so, um, it's not really about giving legal advice. I don't think that's really their concern about giving legal advice or their concern is about s- someone that they don't know who's participating, acting as a lawyer in the, in the deal. That's what's messing them up. Um, but again, that's the law today. You can't do that. It's already a misdemeanor. This, this does up it, um, but it doesn't make it a felony where, where it was bef- came out of judiciary. [1:04:47](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3887s) Hope that answers your question a little bit. It's not quite as easy as just I'm a clerk telling someone, oversharing a little bit. These are sophisticated people, um, doing sophisticated deals. [1:04:56](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3896s) Yes. But going back to what you mentioned earlier, how this impacts mostly the minorities, where there may be someone that helps, um, and the client believes that they were an attorney all along. [1:05:09](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3909s) Sure. [1:05:09](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3909s) So I guess I'm just concerned with people that are acting in good faith, um- [1:05:15](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3915s) Yeah, I get you. Yeah [1:05:16](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3916s) ... getting caught up in the net. But I certainly agree that we need to protect, um, the, the integrity of obviously, uh, practice of law and the procedures. But I just am always cautious with people getting caught up in the system that may have not really intended to do so. Thank you. [1:05:39](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3939s) Thank you both for the back and forth. I think that was very productive. Thank you. All right. So we have a motion on the table. Motion do pass. All those in favor? [1:05:48](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3948s) Aye. [1:05:49](https://vimeo.com/1175275468#t=3949s) All those opposed? All right. We have one opposed. All right. Thank you so much. Uh, motion passes, LC443546 S. Thank you so much. Meeting adjourned.