Senate Regulated Industries and Utilities Committee, February 17, 2026

Transcript

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1. 0:19:30

   To order Senate Regulated Industries and Utilities. There's an agenda in your folders, uh, ladies and gentlemen. We're gonna start with Senate Bill 485, my suite mate, Senator Payne. You can s- speak from that place or the podium, whichever you're most comfortable.

2. 0:19:47

   I'll just go to the podium if that's okay.

3. 0:19:48

   Yeah, I think they have a better TV shot for you over there. Honey.

4. 0:19:53

   Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, this bill is a s- very simple bill. Um, as we've done with other, this creates parity with similar professions. We've already licensed professional counselors and marriage and family therapists already are permitted to take their licensure exams in their final semester of school, and this bill does the same thing, uh, except for social workers. And so those- the students who are in final semester of s- uh, of the Council of Social Work Education Master of Social Work program to sit in their licensure ex- examination before graduation in their final semester of school.

5. 0:20:29

   And as we are in dire need of more mental health in our state and h- mental health providers, this is just a way to expedite that process to get these men and women into the workforce.

6. 0:20:40

   So that lets them be licensed as soon as they graduate and complete that coursework instead of having to wait-

7. 0:20:46

   Yes, sir

8. 0:20:46

   ... to go take the test. All right. Any questions, uh, Senator Payne, from committee members?

9. 0:20:53

   Appropriate time.

10. 0:20:54

    All right. I'd make sure, I don't think anybody signed up to speak on your bill. It's so simple. There's nobody else, uh, signed, so Senator Albers, you're recognized for a motion.

11. 0:21:04

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would, uh, move you pass Senate Bill 485.

12. 0:21:08

    Second.

13. 0:21:09

    We have a second from the vice chairman. Is there any discussion or any proposed amendments? All right. Then there's a motion to pass LC 56-0563. That's Senate Bill 485. All in favor, raise your hand. And any opposed like same. All right. You passed unanimously. Now you get to go into the jaws of the feared Rules Committee. Good luck. There you go.

14. 0:21:34

    Thank you, Mr. Chair.

15. 0:21:35

    Why did you laugh?

16. 0:21:36

    You know what?

17. 0:21:38

    He's fearless.

18. 0:21:40

    Confidence.

19. 0:21:41

    I got 90% of our Rules Committee sitting right here.

20. 0:21:45

    Yeah.

21. 0:21:45

    Let's just go and get it over with.

22. 0:21:46

    You want me to go back to the podium, Mr. Chairman?

23. 0:21:51

    Well.

24. 0:21:51

    Senate Bill 94. This was dealt with us last year. Uh, it deals with the formation of the Office of the Consumers Utility Council. Senator Hufstetler, if you will present this to us. Um...

25. 0:22:07

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As you said, this was presented to the committee last year. Um, this bill is the exact same language that passed out last year. There's a sub, but I guess that's something that had to happen because of, uh, uh, redoing it according to leg council, I guess. So, uh, it's the exact same language. I can, uh-

26. 0:22:30

    Well, believe it or not, we have been advised that we have to when it's a new year. The only thing that changed is your LC number.

27. 0:22:39

    Mm-hmm.

28. 0:22:39

    That, uh, it- that the other one was essentially dead when it, if- if you make the, uh, the- the rules calendar and don't get reached, then we have to reload, and so that's the only change they've made on the Senate side.

29. 0:22:52

    Okay. So as the chairman said, there's a new s- LC number, but it's the same bill. Um, this would set up a consumer utility council like 46 states currently have and like we used to have, um, that would give the, uh, rate payers legal standing on discovery. Um, and I can, um, I can make this long or short, pl- pleasure of the committee.

30. 0:23:19

    It's up to you. You're the guy that wants to pass it.

31. 0:23:21

    And I can-

32. 0:23:21

    You tell us as much as you think we need to win our votes.

33. 0:23:24

    Okay. And I can, uh, I can also close with- with information if needed as well.

34. 0:23:29

    All right, I got two speakers signed up to talk, so we'll definitely let you close after that.

35. 0:23:34

    Okay. Um, this was disbanded during the recession. Uh, and, uh, as people like our former Appropriations Chair Jack Hill said they were scrambling for money. It never was reinstituted and repealed, but I do think it's important with the billions of dollars that are going on here that we have somebody that has legal standing and represents the, uh, consumers. Um, I did have, uh, uh, all the public service commissioners at the time.

36. 0:24:07

    Now, the current public service commissioners, none of them have ever served with a consumer utility council. Um, but the ones at the time when it was disbanded all stated that it was needed. Um, in 2010 from AJC, and I can- I can get you this information too, Commissioner Doug Everett said they were the main voice of the consumer and small business, and now they won't have anyone representing them directly anymore. Commissioner Stan Wise said at different times, the council was very effective in the process.

37. 0:24:39

    And Commissioner Robert Baker, who's here today, said there's a giant void there. There's no third-party representation for small consumers. And Commissioner Baker also cited an effort by AARP on behalf of its members in a recent case before the commission that, uh, did not, it was denied discovery rights by the commission, preventing it from obtaining answers to questions it had about the project. So, you know, we think the- the consumers need to have one voice on there that will represent them, and I can get into more details later, but I'll stop there-

38. 0:25:13

    Questions

39. 0:25:14

    ... for, uh, your committee.

40. 0:25:16

    We've got a few questions. I'll recognize my vice chairman, Senator Summers, for a question.

41. 0:25:21

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Hufstetler.

42. 0:25:23

    Yeah.

43. 0:25:23

    Would you please enlighten me? Because I obviously wasn't here, but y- we keep talking about before. What happened? Was it 2008 when this was, we had this?

44. 0:25:32

    Right. During the recession, it was disbanded

45. 0:25:35

    And then, uh, why, why was it disbanded?

46. 0:25:39

    Um, I think it was more of a money thing at the time. We were cutting a lot of stuff out. At the time, the state actually... You know, we've got very healthy reserves now. The state got down to one day's revenue on hand. And we were, we were scraping. I wasn't here, you weren't here.

47. 0:25:55

    Mm-hmm.

48. 0:25:56

    Um, I've heard tales about it, but they were scraping for money everywhere, and I think a lot of things were cut at the time because of that.

49. 0:26:02

    Mr. Chairman, one more time. And, and-

50. 0:26:04

    Oh.

51. 0:26:06

    Just follow, let me finish.

52. 0:26:07

    Yeah, feel free to follow up.

53. 0:26:09

    Um, Mr. Chairman, um, would the, would the cost be about what it cost them to, to do this again in 2008 versus today? I mean, what, to do it?

54. 0:26:18

    You know, I, I think that we, we, we need one, and there need to be an attorney serving under the attorney general that would represent them. I think a lot of the information is already there-

55. 0:26:28

    Yeah

56. 0:26:28

    ... um, with the, the public interest staff they have. But I can get into why I don't think-

57. 0:26:35

    Oh

58. 0:26:35

    ... that's adequate if you want me to, but I, I think there, there should be minimal cost to do this.

59. 0:26:41

    Yeah. Um, that's, thank you. I mean, I just wonder why it was disbanded. Thank you.

60. 0:26:45

    Yeah.

61. 0:26:46

    Other questions? Uh, Senator Ginn, you're recognized for question.

62. 0:26:49

    Uh, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, s- Senator Hufstetler-

63. 0:26:53

    Mm-hmm

64. 0:26:53

    ... on the role of PSC, would you kinda describe for me what you see the role of PSC? I, I know that, you know, every, every citizen in Georgia gets to vote for them or, or not.

65. 0:27:05

    Mm-hmm.

66. 0:27:05

    So they, uh-

67. 0:27:05

    Yeah

68. 0:27:06

    ... and, and in my mind, I, I'm thinking, okay, are we not duplicating the, the role to be responsive to the citizens from the, uh, PSC? So if you would, help me with that.

69. 0:27:17

    Well, they've, they've got to, they've got to make judgements based on, um, the utility's financial viability, the, uh, consumers obviously, the industrial. A lot of different things they do. And so to me, it's hard for them to advocate for one group and yet be the judge versus, you know, being an independent and hearing all the evidence. And I think the consumers need an independent voice to represent them.

70. 0:27:47

    We've had, quite frankly, I know in 2023, we had hearings where the, uh, public interest staff had made an agreement before the interveners even spoke. And, you know, I, I don't think that... I think that takes away trust in the process to do that. I think that, um, uh, if, if they're representing the consumers, they should at least, uh, hear them all out before, you know, coming to an agreement on these issues.

71. 0:28:16

    Yeah. I, I know I- I've always, anytime I've had an issue with what's going on with any kinda, uh, utility stuff, it comes under the, the PSC.

72. 0:28:25

    Mm-hmm.

73. 0:28:25

    Uh, had a great response from, from, uh, those. And I've asked many of my constituents, I said, "Hey, have you talked with your PSC member?" Most of them don't even realize they're real people, that they can talk to.

74. 0:28:36

    Mm-hmm.

75. 0:28:36

    That they can, they can ask them questions, they can see what's going on. And to me, that's sad, because they do have that dual responsibility to serve as kinda judge and jury on that and, and represent the, the citizens of Georgia. That's where, where for me, I'm just concerned that, you know, the, the money that we spend, I, I'd much rather give more, uh, staff to the PSC to dig deeper in and let, let them get more information, I think, than it would be, uh, to, you know, bring a, a different group into the mix.

76. 0:29:09

    Well, of course, we had it, and, you know, you could... There's probably mixed results from them over the years. But, um, I think there's a reason that 46 states have somebody that's independent doing this, you know, that, that represents just the consumers, um, and doesn't, you know, it doesn't report to someone who has to be the judge in the case.

77. 0:29:35

    Thank you.

78. 0:29:37

    Other questions? Uh, Senator Brass, you're recognized.

79. 0:29:42

    Senator, do you think there should be a taxpayer advocate for your district up here?

80. 0:29:49

    Um, I, I don't know that there should be a taxpayer advocate. But I do think on these, uh, these rates that somebody, for the reasons of discovery alone, somebody should have the right to, uh, to get information that's often redacted to the public and to all of us. They, they're in on the process.

81. 0:30:13

    And so this taxpayer advocate is gonna have access to redacted information? Is that what your bill does?

82. 0:30:22

    That's one of the things they would have, is they have the right of discovery, um, that can see the information that we as legislators can't see. They can be part of that discussion in representing the, uh, residential ratepayers.

83. 0:30:38

    Then why not just give us the ability to see redacted information?

84. 0:30:42

    Well, I wish, I wish... I mean, I think there's more redacted in this state than any other state. I w- I wish that was a more open process.

85. 0:30:48

    Well, why not do that for us who are taxpayer advocates for our district-

86. 0:30:53

    Mm-hmm

87. 0:30:53

    ... just like PSC elected officials are taxpayer advocates for their, well, for the state?

88. 0:31:00

    That's probably, probably a different bill, but I would support that.

89. 0:31:05

    Okay. I'm just... Okay.

90. 0:31:07

    Okay. Further questions from committee members? All right. Thank you. I'll go ahead and take, we now have three people signed up. Uh, Kiana Jones Moore from DeKalb County, Super District 6.

91. 0:31:23

    If you would please take the podium, introduce yourself, tell us who you're with, and your views on the bill.

92. 0:31:28

    Good afternoon. My name is Kiana Jones Moore. I serve as Senior Environmental Policy Aide to DeKalb County Super District 6 Commissioner Ted Terry. Commissioner Terry is in appreciation of this bill. He supported it last year and supports it again this year. Very, very thankful for Senator Hufstetler and others who have seen the need to return the Consumer Utilities Council so that our constituents in Super District 6 have a voice at the Public Service Commission. Unfortunately, Commissioner Terry has received quite a few emails from constituents about their experience at the Public Service Commission meetings where they have been, quite frankly, denigrated by Public Service Commissioners, and he does feel that there is a need for a Consumer Utilities Council and would appreciate very much if this committee would support Senator Hufstetler and others who have co-sponsored this bill.

93. 0:32:20

    Thank you.

94. 0:32:22

    Thank you very much. Um, Bobby Baker.

95. 0:32:26

    Well, it is me, sir.

96. 0:32:30

    Well, you don't have to sign up. We'll let you speak if you got something there for us, Senator Lucas, in just a minute.

97. 0:32:35

    Thank you, Mr. Chair. I've been trying to figure out whether to go or what.

98. 0:32:40

    All right. We'll, w- we'll send you to legislative council to work on that and Senate research. Senator Baker.

99. 0:32:49

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, members of the committee, thank you for, uh, the time to address you today. I'm in support of, uh, Senator Hufstetler's, uh, Senate Bill 94. Since, uh, 2008, there hasn't been real representation of residential or commercial, small commercial customers before the, uh, Georgia Public Service Commission in contested cases involving billions of dollars in rate increases and tens of billions of dollars in capital expenditures that ratepayers have to pay for.

100. 0:33:25

     Uh, in answer to, uh, Senator Summers' question, during the 2008 recession, Governor Perdue directed all state executive agencies, uh, to cut their budgets by 15%. Most executive agencies spread that 15% budget cut equally among all their departments, but the Governor's Office of Consumer Affairs, uh, made their 15% budget cut by eliminating the Consumer's Utility Council, and that occurred overnight.

101. 0:33:59

     Uh, when the CEC was eliminated, as, uh, Senator Hufstetler mentioned, uh, every PSC commissioner, including myself, uh, told the AJC and other papers that, uh, the CEC was essential, uh, during utility proceedings and added great value. Now, did I agree with every single thing the C- uh, CEC did? No. Was I critical of them at times? Yes. Uh, yet the current commission claims a CEC is not necessary without ever having worked with one.

102. 0:34:33

     PSC representatives may tell you the commission's advocacy staff provides representation for residential and small commercial customers in contested cases. They don't, or at least, or at best, they provide very limited representation that disappears once a stipulated agreement is entered into or signed. For over a decade, the PSC advocacy staff has entered into stipulated agreements with utility companies, sometimes even before any evidence has been entered into cases.

103. 0:35:08

     In the case of the prunesty review for Vogel Unit Number Four, a full and searching review of all the construction costs and expenses had been repeatedly promised since 2017. Rather than a six-month hearing with evidence, cross-examination, and a record, there was a one-day hearing of a secret stipulated agreement entered between Georgia Power and the commission staff. One day.

104. 0:35:40

     In the 2025 rate case decision, the stipulated agreement was signed by Georgia Power and the commission staff before any party had a chance to even intervene, and any, and then again, there was only a one-day hearing rather than a full six-month contested rate case. In all the stipulated agreements entered into between Georgia Power and the commission staff for more than a decade, no other parties were allowed or invited to participate in the negotiations.

105. 0:36:12

     Parties have asked to be included but have always been denied. Reestablishing the Consumer's Utility Council may not be a perfect solution to the problem, but it is far better than the current situation where secret deals are entered into between a utility company and the commission staff, and all other parties are excluded from the final settlement negotiations. If there were a Consumer's Utility Council, they would like, be allowed to participate in any settlement negotiations, and as Senator Hufstetler points out, they would also have full discovery rights, which no party other than the PSC staff has.

106. 0:36:52

     If you intervene in a PSC case, you have zero, zero discovery. You're relying upon the PSC staff, and in the past, you relied upon sometimes the CUC to take a look. So you don't have that independent third party taking a look at this very complicated, very important information that is, is voluminous.

107. 0:37:20

     Uh, so the Consumer's Utility Council, they wouldn't be, uh, if we had a Consumer's Utility Council, they'd be allowed to participate in these negotiations on settlements. And they would have full access to discovery. Georgia ratepayers are unrepresented today before the Public Service Commission, and something has to be done. The Consumers Utility Council must be reestablished and adequately funded to ensure Georgia utility customers have some dedicated and qualified representation in billion-dollar rate cases.

108. 0:37:53

     I'll be glad to take any questions if there are any.

109. 0:37:57

     I recognize Chairman Brass for question.

110. 0:38:00

     Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Baker, for being here. So you mentioned you have been critical before, um, and I saw a article, I guess it was AJC, it, of, it was quoting you of, of essentially wanting to get rid of the CUC back in, I don't know, maybe 30 years ago or whenever it was. What, um, what happened then to make you want to, that you wanted to get rid of it to where, and w- and what would prevent that from happening, whatever that was, what would prevent that from happening this time if we were to reinstate it?

111. 0:38:41

     I'll just tell you something. Something is better than nothing. If that's one thing, point I get across to everybody here, something is better than nothing.

112. 0:38:50

     I get, I get that.

113. 0:38:50

     Right now you have nothing.

114. 0:38:51

     I get that, but the question was, if you-

115. 0:38:53

     Well, could you point out the, what, which article and when, what, what date was it? Could you give me a little bit of-

116. 0:38:59

     I tell you what

117. 0:38:59

     ... do you have a date, um, on, on the article?

118. 0:39:00

     Like, it was '98-ish. I don't know.

119. 0:39:03

     '98.

120. 0:39:03

     I've got the article in my office. I can run and get it. I'll let-

121. 0:39:06

     I, I don't, I don't need you to run. Like I said, I didn't agree with everything. There were several different, uh, Consumers Utility Councils over time.

122. 0:39:15

     Right.

123. 0:39:15

     They answered to the governor.

124. 0:39:17

     Look, I'm not knocking you. I'm just, I'm asking what happened then.

125. 0:39:21

     I don't know. In 1998-

126. 0:39:22

     And I, and I'm trying to-

127. 0:39:23

     ... I'll tell you the truth, uh

128. 0:39:23

     ... figure out what, if we're gonna do this, what would prevent whatever happened, what would prevent, what would, what do we need to do to prevent that from happening again? 'Cause something back then caused you not to want it, and now you do want it, and I get it. I get you're frustrated with, with the PSC. I get that. So that's changed, and I'm, I'm okay with that. But I just need to know if we're gonna do this, how are we gonna prevent whatever happened in the late '90s from happening again?

129. 0:39:56

     That's what I'm trying to get at.

130. 0:39:57

     Uh, you're, you're... I really don't know. Your, your question is really vague. Incredibly vague. And look, there are gonna be problems. If there is a new Consumers Utility Council or some consumer representative that's gonna be representing residential and small commercial customers, I am sure, I am posit- I'm 100% positive there will be situations where parties disagree with their position for various reasons.

131. 0:40:28

     And, and that's just the nature of the beast. Y'all have to deal with it every single day in your capacities as elected representatives. Uh, you know, to say that there's some magic cure that will eliminate any, any objection to whatever the Consumers Utility... Who know- I, I don't, I don't think there is one. I, I... There is one. There isn't one, to be honest. Uh, but there is a need down there for some entity, independent entity.

132. 0:40:59

     Uh, I'm surprised NFIB isn't pounding on your door asking for... They used to be big supporters of the Consumers Utility, 'cause that... They couldn't afford to hire lobbyists to come down to the PSC. They couldn't afford the attorneys. Now, the big industry, sure. Georgia manufacturers, they were always there. They had great representation. They knew what they were doing. They were on top of it. But, you know, there was nobody there for the residential customers. 2.5 million residential customers and 330,000 commercial customers served by Georgia Power Company have nobody down there who knows what they're doing and consistently and effectively argues for them and, and, and, and represents them.

133. 0:41:46

     What happens now would be if, if an attorney in a trial abandoned their client in the middle of a trial, uh, or in the middle of a case, they'd be disbarred. They'd be subject to malpractice. But when you have a situation now where you don't have effective advocacy through the entire process, this is, uh, and we're looking at some major cases. Y'all have been, you're aware of what's coming up here and for Georgia as far as data center construction.

134. 0:42:22

     You're talking about $34 billion. $34 billion in new capital expenses. I, I, I'll, I'll stop.

135. 0:42:32

     Yeah. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions.

136. 0:42:34

     Okay. Thank you. Are you saying that the Public Service Commission is not elected by the citizens to be that advocate for the citizens and the control of their utility rates?

137. 0:42:46

     They're not supposed to be an advocate. They're supposed to be a impartial judge weighing the evidence presented to them by the utility companies and by the consumers and trying to come up with a reasonable and fair response to the rate cases, to the integrated resource plans, to the other things, the mergers that they do. They are not supposed to be, they are not technically advocates for.

138. 0:43:17

     They have to, they're elected by you. Uh, uh, they are responsible to you as elected officials. You have their budget. Uh, and they, they meet, you know, met with constituents, heard their pr- their, their concerns, their problems. But the job of the commissioner is not to be an advocate For residential or-

139. 0:43:41

     So, so the consumer advocate would, would speak for the citizens or the rate payers and have the staff and resources to more fully make their case?

140. 0:43:51

     Hopefully. Hopefully.

141. 0:43:53

     Okay. Senator Walker, you're recognized for a question.

142. 0:43:57

     So did I understand that you served on the Public Service Commission at some point, or where did you work?

143. 0:44:04

     I, I served 18 years on the Public Service Commission.

144. 0:44:07

     And, and don't, I don't mean any offense, but when you served on the Public Service Commission, did you not look out for the consumer?

145. 0:44:17

     Yes, as I said, we tried to balance the interests of the consumers and the utility companies, uh-

146. 0:44:22

     But-

147. 0:44:22

     ... to try to have-

148. 0:44:23

     So-

149. 0:44:23

     ... ensure that ratepayers were not overcharged, but utility companies were making enough so they could continue to invest in infrastructure to serve consumers.

150. 0:44:34

     So you, you did that as a PSC commissioner, and you ran statewide, I assume.

151. 0:44:42

     Three times.

152. 0:44:43

     And so that's still the way we do it now, is they're elected statewide by the citizens of Georgia. We just had a hotly contested r- races last year with some new public service commissioners elected. Um, why do you... I guess my question is, why do you think you were able to balance the n- the concerns and the interests of the consumer versus industry, versus future investment and future power needs, but w- what's changed?

153. 0:45:16

     I mean, why, why are the people that are on there now not able to do that? And-

154. 0:45:22

     Well, well, first, I'm not gonna say that I was a perfect commissioner. I made mistakes, all right? I mean, I, my... You can find fault with some of the decisions I made. Some others you, you know, you probably agree strongly with.

155. 0:45:39

     W- what, what we need now

156. 0:45:44

     are, i- i- is, is, is, uh... The commissioners, uh, need that additional information that they got from... The CEC was an additional source of information, and their goal was to represent their clients, and their clients were residential and small commercial customers. And believe me, the representation for those classes are far and few between. You know, sometimes there's a group that'll come in that's consumer-oriented, um, and they'll, they'll work- try to represent the residential customer interests.

157. 0:46:20

     Is the AARP ever down there? No. Do they have an enormous interest in the outcome of the PSC decisions? Absolutely, yes. But did they ever show up? No . It was, uh, perplexing. Uh, it's groups like that, that you would expect, but they didn't show up. And, and it's, it's... I don't know what else to tell you, Senator. It's, uh-

158. 0:46:43

     Okay. Thank you. I rec- recognize you, Senator Ginn. I think you're lit up first.

159. 0:46:50

     Three. Hey, uh, Mr. Baker, you, I'm not sure whatever, uh, other elected offices you've held, but I know PSC for 18 years, three terms. Did you serve in any other elected office?

160. 0:47:03

     PSC was enough for me. My-

161. 0:47:04

     Okay

162. 0:47:05

     ... that was it.

163. 0:47:06

     I appreciate your service there. So then, you know, one of the things that I, I think about, uh, you know, and this is where for me you talk about advocates for, for these consumers, residential, small commercial consumers, and you also talk about the, the information that, you know, you needed the, uh, to, to be informed and the things there. To me, I, I, I believe you're a honest and just individual and, and served with dignity in your office. To me, if that information, whether you got it from a consumer's utility council or from additional staff that, that we could provide to you as a Public Service Commission or to our current Public Service Commission, that they, uh, you could make a more informed decision.

164. 0:47:48

     You could make the right decision. And I think, you know, you're gonna make the right decision for, for your constituents. They, just like everybody that sits at this table, worked real hard to represent their constituents and make the right decision. My question is, is why should we go fund another agency, another organization within the, uh, the, the state government when if you need more information to make a decision as a Public Service Commission, great, we want to get you that information. I know that if you don't make the right decisions, we've seen the, uh, the public didn't think that the, the last couple, uh, races that were out there, that they were getting the right decision.

165. 0:48:27

     So they can choose a different Public Service Commission member. To me, I'm asking the question is what's, what's the difference whether you get your information, you know, and you need more resources as to serve on the PSC-

166. 0:48:39

     Mm-mm

167. 0:48:40

     ... or to go out and buy a, a, an, an adversary group that, that we're gonna fund the other side of that thing? And I'm trying to, you know, 'cause I, I know you're, you know, as a, at, when you were on the PSC, you were gonna serve your, your constituents, and that's just like what all of us do here, is we're here to, to help our constituency. So what's, what's the difference?

168. 0:49:00

     The difference, there's been a big change in just how the PSC operates, uh, since I left, and, and the reliance upon stipulated agreements. Uh, normally those stipulated agreements would always come towards the end of a case after the evidence has been presented, after you've had cross-examination of witnesses, after you've had public testimony, after you've had written briefs filed. Nowadays, stipulations come before any, any evidence.

169. 0:49:33

     I mean, i- in the last rate case, there was a stipulated agreement, uh, just popped on, a surprise to, to the various parties they didn't even know about. And now- You can say, hey, it's a, it was a good, you know, it was a good decision, it was a good stipulation. But it's the process that the fact that everyone was cut out of the process except for the staff and Georgia Power Company, that's not right. That is just not right.

170. 0:50:04

     It shouldn't happen. We need to stop it. We were promised a full and thorough review of the Vogel expenditures. One day. One day for the w- for the largest public pro- uh, project in American history that Georgians will be paying for between 40 and 60 years, and they didn't even have the right to have one day, more than one day's worth of a hearing. That's outrageous.

171. 0:50:35

     That's not Georgia. That shouldn't happen ever again. And as-

172. 0:50:41

     I'm sorry that none of the other commissioners are, are... none of our current commissioners are here today. I know they, they, we do have some staff here, but I, I haven't seen any of our current commissioners here, so I, I, I don't know that they can address, you know, the situation that, that you're, uh, describing.

173. 0:50:58

     I, I mean, they participated in it. They know it.

174. 0:51:00

     Yeah.

175. 0:51:03

     I mean, you know, that, that's my opinion. I mean, I'm sure that they felt that they made a, a, good decisions based on the evidence they had. Um, I just think that, uh, based on the, the, the money and the commitments that are, that Georgia ratepayers are being asked to make, not just for one year, we're talking about 45 years, 60 years, and now we're talking about an additional $34 billion that's, that's gonna be spent in the next five years.

176. 0:51:36

     That's, that's a, that's incredible. That, that's ph- phenomenal.

177. 0:51:39

     We do that every year down here.

178. 0:51:41

     Uh, you do.

179. 0:51:42

     It's about our state budget.

180. 0:51:43

     I, I, I, I agree. I, I, I know you do the, the legislature ta- does that, but that's, that is highly unusual for a, a construction, capital construction program like that for Georgia.

181. 0:51:54

     Would you recommend that we consider legislation requiring the Public Service Commission to give more thorough hearings and opportunity for, um, rebuttal or consideration before these secret stipulations are agreed to?

182. 0:52:08

     I, I don't know if legislation is appropriate, but it would seem appropriate to, just based on common sense, that before you enter into a stipulated agreement, at least have the evidence and a record, at least have parties give testimony, at least have cross-examination of witnesses and presentation of evidence. Uh, and then if you want to enter into a st- if the parties want to enter into a stipulation, all the parties, not just two parties, and that's what, that's, that's what's been happening in the past.

183. 0:52:42

     Two parties make all the decision, and everybody has to live with it, and that's, that's all I'm saying is that stipulated agreements have their place. Uh, but let's have a record. Let's have evidence. And, uh, and then once you have the evidence and record, then you can make, I think, a more educated, fair decision and come up with a, if there's a stipulated agreement that's appropriate, then you have a basis for it.

184. 0:53:11

     How would having a consumer advocate help if they could continue the current practice of coming up with stipulated agreements before a hearing?

185. 0:53:18

     Uh, the one thing that the, uh, uh, a, a consumer's utility advocate would do would be to first say they would have to participate, as they did in the past under law in, in those negotiations, and they could just say no.

186. 0:53:34

     All right.

187. 0:53:34

     We're not gonna do something before we have a record, before we have a case, before we have witnesses and testimony. Um, we're gonna do that first, and then we'll, we'll talk about a settlement, and, uh, that is, you know... I mean, how many times do you have a ca- a, a trial where the judge announces the ruling before the evidence is even presented?

188. 0:53:58

     Yeah. Senator Summers, you're recognized for a question.

189. 0:54:03

     I'm a little confused, okay? You, uh, y- don't take this the wrong way when I say this to you, but some of this sounds a little bit like sour grapes here. I mean, to me, it's not like you would, you, you're good with dissolving the PSC right now. So it sound like to me, let the consumer advocate run it.

190. 0:54:18

     No. No, no, no, no. I... Look, I'm frustrated. I've been frustrated now, uh, for over 15 years, more than that. So yes, yes, you, you, you hear frustration.

191. 0:54:30

     Were you not, were you not part of the decision of Plant Vogel when you were on the PSC?

192. 0:54:32

     I voted again- I was the lone vote against it.

193. 0:54:34

     You voted against Plant Vogel?

194. 0:54:36

     Yes, I did.

195. 0:54:37

     Well, w- was the population in Atlanta roughly about, what, 8 million, 7 million then? Now we're about 11 and a half to 12 million. I mean, the, the state's growing. I mean, they have to provide the power. Wha- uh, what I'm saying is, how could you want us to put a non-elected person in a position to be able to, to basically tell the PSC, "No, we're not gonna do that"?

196. 0:54:58

     No, I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that a, an organization such as the Consumers Utility Council could provide a little more balance and fairness in the decision-making process. They can't tell the commission what to do, but they can present evidence and arguments that may not be presented from the perspective of a residential ratepayer or a small commercial ratepayer, and that, that's it.

197. 0:55:30

     The commissioners make the final decision. That's their job. That's what they're elected to do. No Consumers Utility Council can take that away from them or should take that away from them. It's just that we need to s- get back to the way things, get back to having cases where you actually had cases and evidence, uh, and get back to the old ways of doing, making a decision. That's all I'm saying.

198. 0:55:58

     Other questions by committee members? All right. Thank you very much, Mr. Secretary-

199. 0:56:03

     Thank you, Mr. Chairman

200. 0:56:03

     ... I appreciate you being with us. Did I miss anybody? Senator Rhett, Senator Lucas? I'm sorry. Uh, Bobby can, can you come back? Well, I missed a, a good friend from Macon.

201. 0:56:15

     Let me ask you something.

202. 0:56:20

     The utility council. Most folks in here don't even know what a kilowatt is, how you even pay for one and make it up. Only thing they know, they pay the light bill-

203. 0:56:30

     Right

204. 0:56:30

     ... to make sure the lights stay on.

205. 0:56:34

     Right.

206. 0:56:34

     When we look at,

207. 0:56:38

     I call it a public cooperation, but it's private, Georgia Power. It's the only utility in this state that gets the chance to make a profit. I think what we, what we looking at, Mr. Chairman, is that what the utility council will do, will understand what a kilowatt is, how it's made, how you get to a megawatt.

208. 0:57:11

     That's understanding how you create the power that you need in order to serve, uh, the community. Now, the bill is a great bill 'cause he didn't let me sign it, but, um, it's still a great bill- ... 'cause the people get a chance to have somebody to represent them, to explain to them the process of making power in order to serve this entire community.

209. 0:57:48

     I mean, we're a growing state, and sure we've got to have power to do... But it ought to be at a reasonable rate, and not a deal cut in the midnight hour and nobody know anything about it.

210. 0:58:04

     That's my comment.

211. 0:58:06

     All right. Thank you for your comments. Appreciate it, Mr. Secretary.

212. 0:58:09

     Thank you, Senators.

213. 0:58:10

     All right. Have one more speaker, Mr. Doug Teper.

214. 0:58:15

     Mr. Chairman, I'm gonna, in, uh, to respect that of the committee, I'm gonna pass on my time. I just wanna let y'all know Georgia Conservation Voters, well, we support Consumer Utility Council.

215. 0:58:27

     How come? You speak right there at that microphone since you're there.

216. 0:58:32

     Mr. Chairman, distinguished members of the committee, I think I've, I've known a lot of y'all for a long time. Um, uh, I served in the Georgia House for 16 years, um, with some of your fathers.

217. 0:58:45

     Um, um, uh, I started intervening in Georgia Public Service Commission cases in the early 1980s when we had a Consumer Utility Council. Um, I am not an attorney. Um, I was out of the University of Georgia, and I had to basically argue against Troutman Sanders, Lockeman and Ashmore. I was totally not qualified to do that. We had a Consumer Utility Council. Everybody here, I believe, believes in free enterprise and competition.

218. 0:59:21

     Well, we have a problem when it comes to utilities. We don't wanna run more than one set of lines down every street in Georgia. So we have the Public Service Commission to make up for the lack of competition. Um, it was never fair. Um, the Georgia Manufacturers Association had the biggest law firms in Atlanta down there. I think most of the public and many members of legislature don't realize that depending what class of customer you ha- you are, you pay a different-

219. 0:59:54

     Yeah

220. 0:59:54

     ... amount of money per kilowatt hour.

221. 0:59:56

     Yeah.

222. 0:59:57

     If you've got, uh, King & Spalding representing you, you end up paying a few pennies per kilowatt hour. If you have nobody representing you, you're paying, I don't know what it is now, but it was seven and a half cents per kilowatt hour. The, the public, your constituents who vote in these elections desperately needed s- a lawyer, a trained lawyer to represent them at the Public Service Commission, and that's all this is. This is not brain science, that they...

223. 1:00:28

     The public, the people who vote for you and for the public service commissioners, they desperately need somebody to represent them, and that's all this is about. And 47 states or something like that have a f- a Consumer Utility Council, and the only reason we don't have one is because, uh, it was a, um, I guess a budget cut in 2008, and we did away with it. But for years we had one. I knew, I think, three or four of them. Sid Moore, Delpus Kirkland. There's a number of them, as many of you might know, who went to law school at Georgia and, um, and they, they did a great job.

224. 1:01:05

     Plus, the final word I'll say on this is that, um, if there is a dispute in a case, like Commissioner Baker said, a Consumer Utility Council has the automatic right to go to a court, which other interveners do not. I was an intervener in rate cases, and I did not have the right to go to a superior court to challenge a ruling within the court, and a Consumer Utility Council who is an attorney, uh, would have that automatic right, I believe.

225. 1:01:40

     Questions for Mr. Teper?

226. 1:01:42

     All right.

227. 1:01:43

     Oh, boy, you generate... You fired it up. All right, Senator Rhett.

228. 1:01:48

     Did you say megawatt?

229. 1:01:50

     No.

230. 1:01:51

     Oh, because the senator to my right wanted to know what's a megawatt.

231. 1:01:57

     Um, I will tell you-

232. 1:01:58

     That's what you-

233. 1:01:58

     ... uh, one other piece of this. I intervened in the Plant Vogtle licensing proceedings. I argued before the Atomic Safety and Licensing Board over in Augusta- I then argued the appeal in Bethesda, Maryland at the Atomic Safety and Licensing Board Appeals. Went up against Potts Trowbridge, which was the largest utility law firm in the world. I'm totally unqualified to do any of that. I was just a student who understood in free enterprise and competition, somebody had to make up for it.

234. 1:02:32

     And if the Georgia... I ended up running and getting elected very young to the Georgia legislature, and, um, we didn't change the world, we just wanted a fair shot. And that's all this is, is making sure that residential consumers and small businesses who vote for every one of you have a fair shot at getting a, a utility bill that doesn't, um, disconnect their, um, air conditioning in the summer.

235. 1:03:02

     All right. Uh, Senator Ginn, you're recognized. Question.

236. 1:03:05

     I appreciate your testimony. Sid, when you talk about bring a suit, tell me who's in that suit.

237. 1:03:13

     So-

238. 1:03:13

     Who, who are they bringing a suit against?

239. 1:03:16

     I don't... I believe it's the Public Service Commission ruling. It's just like, um, uh, in any court in America when a judge makes a decision on, like, admitting evidence and there's a dispute, it, it can go to the next court up to decide whether or not that was a correct decision.

240. 1:03:34

     So, and, and, and correct as far as following the proper procedures-

241. 1:03:37

     That-

242. 1:03:38

     ... not the outcome.

243. 1:03:39

     That's ri- that's correct.

244. 1:03:40

     Can't reverse the Public Service Commission-

245. 1:03:41

     That's right. That's right

246. 1:03:42

     ... constitutionally.

247. 1:03:43

     This is not about right or wrong. I've, I interned at the Public Service Commission in 1982. I, I, uh, Commissioner Billy Lovett, who went on to become chairman of the state Republican Party, that was my boss in 1982, and I've been watching these cases, uh, since I had a full head of hair. And, um- Well, I think you have it now.

248. 1:04:04

     That's a long, long gone.

249. 1:04:06

     I think it's you. But, but, but- I think it's you ... all the public of Georgia is doing is looking for a fair shot, and, and y'all are the board at this moment who can decide whether or not they have a fair shot or not. This is not gonna decide, uh, any cases. It's just gonna have a wor- a consumer utility council will be a representative of the residential and small businesses so that they have a fair shot.

250. 1:04:33

     I, I'm not-

251. 1:04:33

     Follow up?

252. 1:04:33

     ... opposed to, to, uh, uh, you know, I have friends that are lawyers. Our chairman's a lawyer, Sid. There are a lot of g- good lawyers out there in the world, but we don't need to employ all of them in the state.

253. 1:04:43

     Mm-hmm.

254. 1:04:43

     The, uh, and, and when I think about, uh, you know, bringing suit against the Public Service Commission, who makes the final decision, Sid, I'd rather the Public Service Commission have more information. You know, if they ne- if there's a lawyer they need to, to, to dig into and get more information, I'm all for that. But, but, uh, uh, somebody to take them to court, uh, you know, the, the, the voters can take them to the woodshed if they don't like it, Sid. And that's where, to me, I, I'm hoping that we can stop some of that and, and, and move forward with, with good Public Service Commission.

255. 1:05:16

     Uh, you know, and they are actually voted on by the citizens, so I know their, their goal is to make sure that they're looking after the citizens.

256. 1:05:24

     You know you voted for this bill last year, right?

257. 1:05:26

     The, uh-

258. 1:05:27

     You talking yourself out of it. Flip-flopped or changed your mind?

259. 1:05:29

     The, uh-

260. 1:05:30

     Which way this time?

261. 1:05:31

     Ac- actually-

262. 1:05:33

     All right. I don't see any other questions.

263. 1:05:34

     Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

264. 1:05:35

     Thank you. I'm sorry I corralled you into testifying, but you looked kind of worked up, and I'm glad we got to hear what you had to say.

265. 1:05:42

     Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

266. 1:05:42

     Thank you.

267. 1:05:43

     Yes. Huh? We will, we'll check the minutes. Senator Hufstetler, would you like to close?

268. 1:05:54

     Sure.

269. 1:05:54

     Worked up. Yeah.

270. 1:05:55

     Already did.

271. 1:05:57

     You know, I, I brought a bunch of information that I don't think is needed about what's happened to the residential bills since 2010, uh, going up 88%, and the others staying pretty much unchanged. Um, I've shown y'all before the sheet where everything's redacted. That's what we all get. This isn't about somebody else making the decision. It's the fact that Georgia Power's at the table, the PSC's at the table, um, industry's at the table. We had somebody who had discovery rights.

272. 1:06:30

     I think that's the most important thing, that could represent the consumers, that could see all this redacted stuff on their behalf. I think it's been effective in other states, um, and I think that, uh, there is a lot of information there the PSC has, but I think we need somebody that represents just the consumers. I th- I know that the two newly elected, uh, PSC commissioners support this. We've had those five at the time that had it, supported it, and, um, I think the voters overwhelmingly support it, and I think they're, they're looking for us to give them a comfort level to get behind the secrecy with somebody who represents them, and I would urge your favorable consideration on this bill.

273. 1:07:12

     Thank you so much. Um, is there a motion?

274. 1:07:16

     I'd like to make a motion to be passed.

275. 1:07:17

     Have a motion do pass from Senator Albers.

276. 1:07:19

     Second.

277. 1:07:20

     I have a second, Senator Anderson. Um, is there any proposed amendments or any discussion? That motion, uh, by the way, let's make sure we got our info straight, is on LC-

278. 1:07:34

     56

279. 1:07:34

     ... 560594S, Senate Bill 94.

280. 1:07:42

     Anyway, that's-

281. 1:07:42

     Did I... All right. And no discussion, then we'll take the vote. All in favor, raise your hand. Got one, two, three, four, five-

282. 1:07:51

     Come on, dad

283. 1:07:51

     ... six, seven. Got eight fours. All against? Got two, three against. That'll be 8-3. So that will move on to the Rules Committee.

284. 1:08:02

     Report for your consideration.

285. 1:08:03

     Thank you, uh, for your perseverance, Senator Hufstetler. Senate Resolution 482, Senator Beard, and I'm thinking we can probably rip through this pretty quick. You already had it here once. And you now have a committee substitute in our folders. That is LC64-0056S.

286. 1:08:23

     Yeah, let's talk about nuclear.

287. 1:08:25

     Let's do Senate Resolution 482.

288. 1:08:29

     Let's make it nuclear-

289. 1:08:31

     Yeah

290. 1:08:31

     ... nuclear comments.

291. 1:08:33

     We got it.

292. 1:08:34

     Uh, thank you, Mr. Chairman.

293. 1:08:35

     I have the original and the committee substitute in your folders. The substitute ought to be on top, um, just in case you want to see what he changed. Tell us what you've done, Senator Bearden.

294. 1:08:45

     So instead of forcing the PSC to do a state committee, we're gonna do a Senate study committee on this one. Um, basically the meat of it goes into how it's set up. On lines, um, 26 on, on the members, the committee shall be composed of 12 members. Five members of the Senate shall be appointed by the President of the Senate. Since this is not a joint resolution, we're saying one member of the House of Representatives may be appointed by the Speaker, uh, two representatives from Georgia Power, two from EMCs here located in Georgia, and two representatives from the Public Service Commission.

295. 1:09:20

     Basically, these advanced nuclear, uh, power facilities are the up and coming thing, and we need to make sure that we are in, in the right place as a state as these start moving forward, everything from there. Um, talked to Senator Albers, and one of the things he wanted to discuss was the, um, difference between fission and fusion with some of the stuff on the, uh, batteries and the fusion power that could be used as well.

296. 1:09:52

     So this is all it does is it gives us a study committee to make sure that we are in the right place we need, especially these advanced nuclear plants coming in place or small modular reactors. Um, matter of fact, I think the president just had one shipped to Utah the other day from California trying to get this thing up and going. And of course, we talked last time about the TVA working with small modular reactors to help generate power up that way as well. So that's all the s- Senate resolution does.

297. 1:10:23

     I recognize Senator Albers for a question. You'll be next, Senator Ginn.

298. 1:10:27

     Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh-

299. 1:10:28

     Thank you-

300. 1:10:28

     ... Senator, uh, for adding that, and I think this is a, a very important topic and a good use of our time. Uh, the only question I have is on line 28, uh, that a House member could be appointed to a Senate study committee. I've never seen that before. Usually that makes it a joint committee. Is that something the legislative council helped us to figure out by saying may as opposed to must?

301. 1:10:48

     Well, this is, this is not a study committee. It, it is a-

302. 1:10:56

     Yeah. It says, says a... Well, well, the chairman brought up maybe a House member should be there, so since it was not a joint resolution-

303. 1:11:05

     I mean, I'm fine with it. I just-

304. 1:11:06

     We, we just said, we just said may. We-

305. 1:11:07

     Okay

306. 1:11:08

     ... if, if the House would join us, we would love to have them there, but we're not gonna force them to be there.

307. 1:11:12

     Maybe he's referring to himself.

308. 1:11:14

     There we go. I can do, uh, both, both roles on that one.

309. 1:11:18

     Touché. All right. As long as the legislative council says it's okay, I... Makes sense to me.

310. 1:11:22

     Senator Ginn.

311. 1:11:24

     Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for bringing this. The, the, uh, uh, Senator Bearden said one of the things that, that, uh, I would ask, I know you've got, uh, Georgia Power and the EMCs. Would you consider adding, uh, two representatives from MEAG, that, uh, really the third, uh, leg of the, the power production side of things here in Georgia?

312. 1:11:45

     Well, as I said before, I'm a big fan of the committee, and, uh, always at the pleasure of the committee. If that's something they'd like to add, I'd be more than happy to do that.

313. 1:11:51

     I, I just, you know, to me-

314. 1:11:54

     Mm-hmm

315. 1:11:55

     ... they, they, they serve a lot of, matter of fact, 49 cities in the state, and they, uh, uh, wanna make sure everybody's included.

316. 1:12:05

     Yeah. No, it's, uh, that's a friendly amendment if the committee so choo- chose to do that.

317. 1:12:11

     Other questions?

318. 1:12:14

     And-

319. 1:12:14

     So it's 14 members or s-

320. 1:12:16

     49 cities that they, that MEAG serves.

321. 1:12:18

     No, I'm ask- you're asking for two more members.

322. 1:12:20

     Yes. Yes, ma'am.

323. 1:12:20

     So it would be 14 instead of 12.

324. 1:12:22

     14.

325. 1:12:23

     Okay. Thank you.

326. 1:12:24

     And Senator Albers, I ap- apologize, I misspoke. The original version was urging the Georgia Public Service Commission to create a study committee. You're right. This has now been, uh, that's part of the amendment. My apologies. Any other questions? Does anybody, uh, from the audience want to be heard on this? I don't see anybody signed up, but welcome any conversation. All right. Uh, it's on the floor for action if anybody has a motion. Got a motion due passed by Senator Ginn, a second by Senator-

327. 1:12:57

     As amended

328. 1:12:58

     ... as, uh, you want as committee substitute. Good point. Your, so your motion is as to the substitute for Senate Resolution 482 LC64-0056S, and that's second by Senator Albers, and I think we had a third from the Dean of the Senate over there.

329. 1:13:15

     That's right.

330. 1:13:16

     That is. Got strong support right there. Any discussion?

331. 1:13:21

     An amendment.

332. 1:13:21

     All right. All in favor? Oh, you got-

333. 1:13:23

     I'd like to make an amendment.

334. 1:13:24

     Are you amending this to take out... Oh, yes. I'm sorry. You did.

335. 1:13:28

     Yeah.

336. 1:13:28

     Yeah, go right ahead.

337. 1:13:29

     Mr. Chairman, I'd like to add, uh, on, uh, below line 33, uh, I'm not real good at the alphabet, but I think it'd be F, the, uh, uh, two representatives from the Municipal Electric Authority of Georgia.

338. 1:13:46

     Second.

339. 1:13:48

     So between the D and the E, you're putting in an F, or after the... I'm not following you here.

340. 1:13:54

     Uh, uh, after line 33.

341. 1:13:57

     Line 33. After F.

342. 1:13:58

     I, I, I'm not sure the next letter in the alphabet. I used to be able to do those, but- ... I think it's, I think it's F.

343. 1:14:03

     I have an amendment to the amendment.

344. 1:14:06

     All right.

345. 1:14:07

     On line 26, we'll need to strike two and put replace with four. So there would be 14 members.

346. 1:14:16

     If we're adding-

347. 1:14:18

     26

348. 1:14:18

     ... strike 12 and put in 14.

349. 1:14:20

     Right.

350. 1:14:20

     If we're gonna be adding two members, we need to fix that.

351. 1:14:23

     You do math, I do alphabets.

352. 1:14:25

     Teamwork, baby.

353. 1:14:26

     I get both.

354. 1:14:27

     So F was two members of MEAG, was that-

355. 1:14:30

     Municipal Electric Authority of Georgia, yes, sir.

356. 1:14:35

     I need a second.

357. 1:14:37

     Y'all gonna leave the House of Representatives and the Senate Study Committee?

358. 1:14:42

     You can do that.

359. 1:14:43

     Fine with me. But, uh-

360. 1:14:45

     You can do that.

361. 1:14:46

     If they wanna be.

362. 1:14:47

     We the upper house anyway. Yeah, take 'em out. Leave them at home.

363. 1:14:50

     That works.

364. 1:14:51

     We'll leave it. All right, so I'm gonna restate your amendment if it's okay, um, to Senator Brass into one amendment that, uh, you will add after line 33F, two members of, uh, MEAG. We'll spell that out, and on line 26, change 12 members to 14 members. Is that, is there a second for that, Senator Brass? You can second it since he's-

365. 1:15:15

     I'll second it

366. 1:15:15

     ... he's, he's, uh, used your language.

367. 1:15:17

     I'd be honored

368. 1:15:18

     Any discussion on the amendment to the committee sub? All right, all in favor of that amendment, raise your hand, please. Any opposed, raise your hand. That unanimously passes. And now we have the committee substitute to Senate Resolution 482, LC 64-0056S as amended on the table. All, uh, any discussion on that? All in favor, raise your hand. And are there any in opposition? That also passes unanimously.

369. 1:15:48

     Thanks for your work with us. Senator, you will move on to the dreaded Rules Committee.

370. 1:15:54

     Appreciate it very much.

371. 1:15:56

     Ooh.

372. 1:15:56

     All right, we got one more, and I, it's, uh, we've been here about an hour, but I think we're gonna knock this out 'cause we're-

373. 1:16:02

     Almost there

374. 1:16:02

     ... gonna need to. Senate Bill 458. Senator Goodman, you have a committee substitute, and we have that in our file LC 62-0391S. If you'd tell us, uh, tell us what you've done. How have you changed your original bill for licensure of home inspectors?

375. 1:16:21

     Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I wanna say at this late hour, everybody looks great. Uh- Tried to take, uh-

376. 1:16:29

     Feeling good, Winthorpe.

377. 1:16:31

     I tried to, uh, take, uh, into account the concerns and suggestions that, uh, members of the committee had when we, uh, when you allowed, uh, allowed me a hearing on this bill last week, I guess. And so in the committee sub that you see, um, if you'll notice on line 45, um, that's where we put the date change out to January 1st, 2028. Um, if you, uh, look at line 60, um, Chairman Albers, you remember you and I talked about that as far as some of the older generation that may not have finished high school.

378. 1:17:01

     We, we add in there, uh, in that language 10 years of experience, uh, if they, you know, don't have a high school degree. Uh, we also removed, we removed all of the pre-licensing education requirements and simply have an examination, uh, to show that the applicant has a minimum core competence in the field of home inspection. Uh, if you look at line 65, uh, that kicks the renewal out by four years and adding renewal by birth month of the licensee. Um, that should help with not all coming renewals at the same time.

379. 1:17:35

     If you'll notice on line 67 to 72, um, that includes, keeps the language as far as the insurance requirements. Uh, line 74, uh, we removed the language, uh, for continuing education. And, uh, finally on line 126, uh, this language allows the application process, uh, to begin six months before the effective date of the legislation so that, uh, people have plenty of time to, um, to get licensed. And for anybody that wasn't here the last time, uh, currently there are 42 states that have some kind of either a certificate or licensing program for home inspectors.

380. 1:18:10

     And I told the committee ear- uh, when we, last week that, uh, I had my folks back home, my local home builders association, my local realtors came to me and, uh, and we met in Valdosta and asked me to, uh, carry some legislation. Uh, just one, uh, having the liability insurance, but also, uh, that there is some core, uh, kind of the consumer protection aspect of it because, uh, homes, our homes are most people's largest asset. And so, uh, with that, I know it's a late hour, and I can get long-winded, as you all know, Mr.

381. 1:18:43

     Chairman, so I'm gonna hush. But, uh, be glad to field any questions.

382. 1:18:48

     Uh, you had come to me with the suggestion that you might change it to a cert- certification rather than a licensure.

383. 1:18:55

     Yes, sir. And, uh-

384. 1:18:55

     What's your thoughts on that at this time?

385. 1:18:57

     Well, I've, uh, over the weekend and today I've been working, um, with, um, our pro tem's chief of, uh, general counsel, and we're trying to figure out if we could do a certification versus a license. But it still has to be administered through some, uh, my understanding is, is it still has to be administered through some board, right? And so, um, what we're doing now is the, uh, uh, the board is going to be able to decide which test it is. They can formulate their own tests or, uh, they can use some nationally recognized tests.

386. 1:19:32

     Um, and what the applicant has to do is pass, you know, successfully pass that test. But by passing that test, it at least shows that there is some minimal level of competency for the folks that are doing this work because right now, as I said last week, my 21-year-old son, uh, he could, he could go print business cards right now and call himself a home inspector.

387. 1:19:52

     So he got a high school degree?

388. 1:19:53

     He does. Yes, sir. And, and on his way to get a, a college degree.

389. 1:19:57

     JR?

390. 1:19:58

     Yeah, JR. Yeah. He'll be here March the 18th.

391. 1:20:02

     All right. Are there questions by committee members? I, I have one. Senator Williams, you are recognized for a question. Thank you. W- where, what board is going to oversee this?

392. 1:20:12

     It's gonna be the Contractors Board under the Residential, uh, Division-

393. 1:20:16

     Okay

394. 1:20:17

     ... of the Contractors Board.

395. 1:20:18

     All right, so it won't be creating a new board?

396. 1:20:20

     No, sir.

397. 1:20:20

     Okay.

398. 1:20:20

     No, and, and I'm, uh, yeah, I think you were here last time, but I-

399. 1:20:23

     All right

400. 1:20:24

     ... initially my folks back home wanted me to create a new board and, and after talking with other members and talking with the governor's office, uh, they did not wanna create a new board. And so we felt the most, uh, the simplest thing was to put it under an existing board. And so we felt like the Contractors Board would be the, the easiest way to do that. And, and a lot of these home inspectors are, are, you know, some of them are retired contractors anyway-

401. 1:20:46

     Okay

402. 1:20:46

     ... you know, that are doing this work.

403. 1:20:48

     Okay. Senator Albers, you're recognized for a question.

404. 1:20:51

     Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, thank you, uh, senator for, um, making these changes to the bill. Uh, the question of a certification over a licensure, I'm, I'm, I'm just trying to struggle mentally through that. What the difference would be if I went to somebody who said, "I'm a licensed home inspector," or, "I'm a certified home inspector"? What would the difference really be? Do we know?

405. 1:21:11

     $50.

406. 1:21:15

     I'll take the cheaper.

407. 1:21:16

     I think we've got some institutional knowledge in here. Senator Lucas.

408. 1:21:21

     Mr. Chairman, I, I, I think that when you put it under the contractors, you make him aware of how you build a house, number one. It's on 16 inch something, those kind of things. Uh, wiring, those kind of things. So if you put it under the contractors, then he would have some knowledge of what a home and how you put a home together on the various things to be an inspector, to know whether or not you got the right roof or whether you did the roof right and those kind of things.

409. 1:21:56

     So I think by putting it under the contract thing, that, that's where most folks learn how to do a house in the very beginning, by being a carpenter and working under somebody else and then become a master carpenter and those kind of things.

410. 1:22:11

     All right. Any further questions? I don't have anybody signed up. What's the pleasure of the committee? I'll make a motion to pass. I have a motion to pass-

411. 1:22:22

     Second

412. 1:22:22

     ... to substitute SB 458 LC 62-0391S. Seconded by Senator Lucas. Any further discussion or proposed amendments? All right. All in favor, raise your hand. And any opposed? We got one in opposition. All right. You got that taken?

413. 1:22:43

     He's slow coming down.

414. 1:22:44

     All right.

415. 1:22:46

     I know he's-

416. 1:22:47

     Watch for, uh- He doesn't go to Walker Insurance Agency. Well, uh, he chaired the committee trying to reduce licenses, so that's not unexpected. He is consistent in his position. Uh, I am not positive whether we will meet Thursday or not. Uh, we'll let y'all know tomorrow, and I should know by noon, uh, and what the agenda will be if we do meet. I'm inclined not to with, uh, President Trump gonna be in town or nearby. It's gonna be a, a zoo that time in the afternoon, so it may, um, be easier to wait until Tuesday, but we will give you adequate notice tomorrow and let you know what's on the agenda if we do meet Thursday.

417. 1:23:29

     W- yes, uh, Senator Brass.

418. 1:23:31

     I was just gonna give you an update. I don't think we're gonna have any bills on the floor Thursday, just FYI.

419. 1:23:36

     All right. Thank you very much. With that, we are adjourned. See you.