Comité Transportation de la Cámara de Representantes, 5 de febrero de 2026

Transcripción

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1. 0:03:14

   All right, let's fire this thing up as Lauren said. Put your phone down, Lauren.

2. 0:03:18

   Oh.

3. 0:03:20

   Mr. Vice Chairman.

4. 0:03:21

   I like that.

5. 0:03:22

   Appre- appreciate y'all being here. Thank you. You know, we all attended a great, uh, press conference just a few moments ago on literacy with the speaker working on that, and it's gonna be a great, uh, thing that we're gonna work on this year. We're also gonna work on some stuff for our airports and others, but I got just a few announcements right quick. First is Jenna is not here yet, or maybe come. You know, if y'all, if y'all don't know, Jenna's mother.

6. 0:03:49

   She's here.

7. 0:03:49

   She's here? Ah, miss, there you are. I'm sorry. I looked over and saw Elliot. And we're just, uh, all our condolence for your mom.

8. 0:03:59

   Thank you.

9. 0:03:59

   I know you ... We're glad to have you back, but I know you've had a tough week, and we just appreciate you so much. So some other folks that I want to introduce that's new to our little world here. First is Elliot Atkins. Elliot. He's our intern in our office with Beth, Beth Camp and I. And just ... I'm get Elliot just to tell you a little bit about himself. We've gotten to know him pretty good. What, what number are you, Elliot?

10. 0:04:23

    16.

11. 0:04:24

    16? There you go.

12. 0:04:27

    Hi, my name's Elliot. Um, I'm a senior at College of Coastal Georgia in Brunswick, Georgia. Um, I like music, and I'm here to learn about public policy. So I'm just trying to absorb all that I can, and I'm happy to see how this meeting goes. Thank you for having me.

13. 0:04:40

    Yay. Thank you, Elliot. Look forward ... Now, he is from originally Henry County, and he was very excited to see in the, in the GDOT budget the money that was put there to take care of that, but now he lives on St. Simons. Also, we have this young lady who's sitting to my left here, Ms. Dani Nichols, and I'll let her tell a little bit about herself. She's our policy analyst.

14. 0:05:03

    Thank you, Chairman Jaspers. Um, like you said, my name's Dani Nicholas. I'm the new policy analyst for the Transportation Committee, as well as Motor Vehicles, MARTOC, and State Properties, and some budget stuff as well. Um, I'm from Sandy Springs, Georgia. I went to Georgia Tech, so hopefully no enemies on this committee, I'm sure. Um, and some of y'all might recognize me. I was an intern with Ways and Means two years ago, and then a lobbying intern last year. So excited to be on the team, and let me know if I can do anything for y'all.

15. 0:05:33

    I'm happy to help.

16. 0:05:35

    If you don't remember, she is our key point, uh, is, uh, all the different members who talk to you about road naming. This is our lady right here. We've had a lot of nice discussions about all that, 'cause it's pretty complex at times. Also want to point out, uh, Joseph Santorum. Where's Joseph at? Right here. Hiding in the back. Well, Joseph is the, uh, new executive director for Georgia Transportation Alliance. You know, very involved in what we do with the Georgia Chamber. And, uh, Joseph is the new father for how many weeks ago?

17. 0:06:08

    A little over two weeks now. Two weeks, and he's here.

18. 0:06:16

    Yeah. He's here 'cause his in-laws are there, and we, we appreciate ... And, and working along with Joseph is Braylin Barrett over here with GTA. They, we appreciate Braylin. You know, at our committee meeting or committee dinner next week, that's the gal right there. She's taking care of it, making sure it's all working out. So Braylin, welcome. Thank you. Yeah, you're right. We appreciate you. Just recently engaged also, I believe. Got a wedding we need, sir. You do.

19. 0:06:47

    You need to talk to her. Safe is plugged. She's over there. It's that Marietta area. Getting rich on the state, baby. You know.

20. 0:06:56

    And so other little things. Committee, as, as road namings are, are stepping up, it's, it's ... I know a lot of the other members talk to you about these things. Make sure they're getting their resolutions done. Josh Waller in the front row here has done a great job getting the road, you know, clearances done. That's been taken care of I think for most of them, but people are really lagging behind on getting their resolutions done. So you know, we got time. We got plenty of time to do that, but this, you got to kind of push some people to get that done. You know, like I said, we have our dinner next week.

21. 0:07:28

    The meeting that we'll have in two weeks will have a number of bills. We'll have MARTA. We'll have a few other bills that we'll have. But right this week is really just a discussion on the airport, uh, issue that we have. But first we're gonna have Janine Miller, our state planning director, and where ... She's over here coming up. You going to the table?

22. 0:07:47

    Yes, sir.

23. 0:07:48

    Okay. And you know, we, we had the joint, but if we also have our chief engineer, Ms. Beck Pirkle.

24. 0:07:55

    Hi.

25. 0:07:55

    You know, so to sand the bat, batting back up.

26. 0:07:59

    Hi.

27. 0:07:59

    You know, so she's gonna talk about the budget, but I know we all always have questions for these two ladies about roads and why we can do this, or how can we do this, or how do I get my road moved up on the list, or what is the li- ... Is there a list? We always have all the ... I know a lot of y'all have questions, and so we'll have time for y'all to answer those also. But after that, I'll turn it over to you, Ms. Janine.

28. 0:08:26

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

29. 0:08:27

    Thank you.

30. 0:08:27

    Uh, thank you for your leadership, uh, and, uh, pioneering and championing our transportation network and improvements that a growing state requires to keep up, uh, with our economy and our businesses and our lives. And, um, thank you to all of the committee members here today, and, uh, very thankful for your time and attention. I know you're very busy, and go Jackets. Okay. Sorry.

31. 0:08:54

    Go

32. 0:08:59

    Jackets.

33. 0:09:00

    All right. Uh, just briefly, uh, the governor's budget recommendation, uh, in the payments to SRTA included 1.796 billion Uh, for the I-eighty- I-75 South Metro Corridor Express Lanes, I'm gonna talk about that in a moment. Uh, and the, the House, thank you for the approvals this, uh, afternoon, uh, the today of the amended budget here in the House. Also embedded within SRTA's budget, uh, is the, in the base budget is the Georgia Transportation Infrastructure Bank.

34. 0:09:34

    Uh, this, uh, on a regular basis is roughly $15 million annually appropriated to that. Last year in the amended budget, uh, you all approved a $46 million appropriation. Very, very thankful for that. We are accepting applications, uh, for that through February 13th, so that's through next Friday. Um, hopefully you have received a, uh, card here from Tyler Eck. Uh, share this with your local governments. Uh, the applications we b- we hope are very, are simple to fill out, and we do a lot of follow-up, uh, with the applicants after we receive their submissions.

35. 0:10:11

    Uh, so very much looking forward to that. That is, um, a basically 3X what we usually get, uh, the, in terms of appropriations, so thank you. But what's also new and exciting about that is $7.5 million of that, as you all earmarked for, uh, airport, uh, facilities. So, so we're going, we are working hand in glove with GDOT, the intermodal office, who is the airport experts, uh, in state government, and, uh, looking forward to airport hangar applications this year.

36. 0:10:41

    Uh, again, $7.5 million for-

37. 0:10:44

    If I can, Janine.

38. 0:10:45

    Yes, sir.

39. 0:10:45

    Just, um, if you don't mind me interrupting every now and then. Have we had much interest in that? Have you seen... Is, what's the... 'Cause know that's been the number one thing all these people that are sitting behind you-

40. 0:10:54

    Yeah. Mm-hmm

41. 0:10:55

    ... whine incessantly about is hangars. And so have we seen, have these people behind you done their d- work?

42. 0:11:03

    I am s- sure that if they haven't already submitted, they will be submitting. Uh-

43. 0:11:07

    Okay

44. 0:11:07

    ... we do, we do get a rush at the end typically every year.

45. 0:11:10

    Sure.

46. 0:11:11

    And it's also new for them. So we've been doing, uh, a lot of work. We hope to have been getting the word out through ACCG and other, other means.

47. 0:11:18

    Yeah.

48. 0:11:18

    Uh, and we will, we will let you know if they don't show up in force, uh, for those dollars that I know they've-

49. 0:11:25

    I-

50. 0:11:25

    ... been asking for for a while.

51. 0:11:26

    I'm looking at both association leaders. I hope that you've been promoting that and, and getting that done so we can have a success story. I know we worked hard on that last year to get that done.

52. 0:11:36

    Yeah.

53. 0:11:36

    Thank you. Thank you for letting me interrupt you.

54. 0:11:38

    Yeah. And, and, uh, we do believe that there's far more demand for hangars than even $7.5 million can keep up with, uh, per GDOT's, uh, study that was published, uh, a couple years ago now. Very well done. Robust data there. If you haven't seen it, it's on GDOT's website. Encourage you to take a look. Uh, as we begin to talk about the South Metro Corridor Express Lanes, uh, that is really certainly operated by SRTA with the Peach Pass, but it is basically powered by GDOT.

55. 0:12:10

    Obviously, GDOT is the highway contracting, uh, entity, uh, and the federal funds designee for the State of Georgia. GDOT built the lanes. They help us operate the lanes. They help us reverse the lanes, uh, both, uh, in the South Metro Corridor and in the Northwest Corridor. So we're very thankful to, to, for the partnership we have with GDOT. Any conversation that I ever have about, about transportation, I always start with, uh, of course, us being the number one state for business, as we have been for the past 12 years per, uh, the, uh, folks at Area Development magazine.

56. 0:12:44

    Those are the economic development experts nationwide, continue to designate Georgia as the best place to locate a business. And boy, has, uh, has that shown up in dollar figures for us as well. Since Governor Kemp took office in January of 2019 through fiscal '25, so through June of, of last year, $113 billion of private investment has been announced throughout the State of Georgia. And we look at what our logistics-enabled businesses to know which of those are going to place demands on, and partially why they even decided to locate facilities here in Georgia, logistics-enabled businesses.

57. 0:13:24

    That means in order for the facility to operate, employ Georgians, make a profit, pay taxes, they require inbound cargo and outbound goods to market, uh, of various types. Could be m- for manufacturing, could be for food processing, could even be for distribution and warehousing. And that was, uh, in these past seven years, six and a half years, over 2,100 businesses or 88% of the total announcements were for logistics-enabled companies.

58. 0:13:58

    That is 65% of the total or $74 billion of private investment for logistics-enabled facilities that are beginning to employ and will over time employ 157,000 more Georgians. This equates to, in 2026 dollars, uh, $100 billion of annual sales and output. Very, very critical for our economy and also for our communities.

59. 0:14:29

    That is beginning to place pressures on our n- roa- roadway network that is showing up in national data sets and reports. There's a company called INRIX. They're a renowned firm for transportation data of all sorts. Uh, they, uh, collect data, real-time actual data, people moving down, uh, roadways throughout the country, throughout the world. And in their report last year in the fall, they deemed Atlanta as the seventh worst congestion in the country and the 16th worst in the world.

60. 0:15:04

    Since 2023, there's been a 23% increase in the hours lost to traffic in Metro Atlanta. That is third highest increase in traffic in the United States. The other two metro areas that had worse growth in traffic congestion, Baltimore, Maryland and Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Maybe not what you would expect, uh, in terms of growth in traffic. Uh, it is, per the INRIX, uh, reports, attributed in Baltimore to the, um, unfortunate catastrophic collapse of the Francis Scott Key Bridge that created an incredible amount of congestion throughout that metro area.

61. 0:15:43

    So they were the worst in, in terms of growth in, uh, traffic congestion in the country. Number two was Philadelphia. There are many factors we be- we believe that Philadelphia had, uh, contributing to their, uh, growth in traffic. One of them was, uh, the, the SEPTA transit system had to undergo safety inspections, uh, by the federal government and had to shut down for, for periods of time in this window. So were it not for those two very unique one-time events, Metro Atlanta would have had the worst traffic growth in the country in the past two years.

62. 0:16:20

    75 hours lost to traffic per person at a cost of nearly $1,400. That is 50% higher than the national average. So looking around, uh, our roadways, what does that look like as you zoom in with very similar data from very similar sources, um, called RIDAS, uh, which is Integrated Transportation Travel Data that we have access to, very robust data set.

63. 0:16:51

    And from the year 2019 through the year 2025, essentially the city of Newark, New Jersey moved to Metro Atlanta, a little over 300,000 people. And what happened to our roadways, you can see o- uh, on these maps. The one on the left is the red to green. If it's, if it's green, traffic got better. If it's red, traffic got worse. The degree to which is shown in the gradient on the right in the yellows and oranges there. One thing to note here, this is the middle of the day.

64. 0:17:23

    These are not even rush hours. And in the middle of the day, I-75 South in, uh, the south part of the corridor, south part of the metro area there, is, uh, those lanes are in the reversing stage. Closed down for clearing out any vehicles that may still be left. GDOT HERO units do, do a tremendous job and toll revenues support that, uh, work that the HERO units do on our, on our express lanes, reversing them and clearing accidents at any point in time.

65. 0:17:56

    But this is the middle of the day in this area where not, uh, one car can get into these in either direction, uh, be- because of, uh, the closure that has to happen every day.

66. 0:18:10

    So, uh, I want to talk for just a moment about our express lanes overall. We have had tremendous growth in these lanes over time. Since 2018, that was the first full fiscal year that I-75 and the South Metro Corridor was opened, and we've had, uh, tremendous growth. Like I said, we're up to 32.2 million trips. Our first facility though actually opened in 2011. That's in, on I-85 in Gwinnett County, that blue, and, and then we extended in the green, uh, there in, in, uh, the northeast corridor.

67. 0:18:47

    Very popular choice when the interstates are congested during so many hours of the day. I-75 South Metro Corridor is, uh, the express lanes are 12 miles long, as you can see here in the yellow and the purple, uh, lines on the graph. Uh, one way in, in any direction, at, in, at any given time, if it's not closed in the middle of the day or overnight, the lanes are only going in one direction. And what we know is that there, everyone cannot get into those lanes.

68. 0:19:18

    I'll go into that in a moment. Even with that, even with just in one direction, 5 million trips last year and an 84% growth since the lanes opened. That is a, a very impressive ramp-up period, as we call it, in, uh, the tolling, um, uh, profession. Uh, another way to look at it, it might be what, uh, the general public might look at as you're planning your trip and you're routing through this corridor, this 12-mile stretch here, is, uh, typically always congested.

69. 0:19:53

    So this is might, this might be what you see on your phone. Um, you can see it's a 10 to 16, um, minute drive if you're going northbound in the morning. That is when the lanes are going in that direction. But if you tried to do the same trip in the afternoon, the northbound period, it takes anywhere from 14 to usually 26 minutes in that 12-mile zone. And this is just what Google can predict. Uh, we'll talk in a m- in a moment about how other things happen. But this is routine, uh, recurring traffic that Google has been, uh, gathering for us, and you can see it, and we use it on our phones.

70. 0:20:33

    This is just one person's problem, is this percentage increase and the, and the unreliability that happens in getting through that corridor. Multiply that by about 100,000 people every day who cannot get into the lanes because they're going in the other direction. So anywhere from 45 to 60% of travelers don't have access to those lanes. Uh, and the volume of delay times 100,000 is, is hard, hard to fathom.

71. 0:21:04

    Um, another way that we have looked at this corridor is our typical tr- uh, transportation planning that we do Using Georgia DOT's model, it's a travel demand model statewide, and each of the segments of our, uh, statewide network get a report card, which we call levels of service. And, you know, in school, if you're getting an A, B, or C, um, you're doing pretty well. We would hope in literacy our students are getting an A, uh, or a B.

72. 0:21:35

    Um, but even a C in, in travel demand modeling is, is good, is acceptable. When you get into D and E is where it starts to become painful for the commute, for the travel, uh, for the business whose freight or employee is trying to get through. And in F, you're in lockdown. We have been studying this, uh, for a long time, and since, uh, the, the lanes opened, we've s- been seeing this degrade. But by 2025, the whole corridor, not... This is not the express lanes, these are the general purpose lanes, are going to be in failing condition at almost every hour of the day.

73. 0:22:14

    That's all that we can predict. And as you know, crashes are unpredictable. So layer on the data we know about crashes that happened in this corridor will be even, continue to grow and be even worse in terms of anybody's ability to get through this, um, area of the state, the central part of the, the region. Uh, so in- congestion is also caused by crashes, of course.

74. 0:22:45

    Other things that are unpredictable, like weather events, uh, are not showing up in any of those models. The Google, the GDOT, um, the, the, uh, real-time data from INRIX, uh, this is, uh, where we have the biggest problem. And again, 50% of people cannot use those lanes. Uh, one last view of data, as we have looked at this every way we can so far to, to make the, the decision to request $1.8 billion.

75. 0:23:16

    This is December, just the month of December, the most recent e- month that we have actual data. On average, 193 vehicles per day used this corridor, and they experienced 334,000 hours of delay in December alone, and each person lost more than nine hours to traffic on that corridor in that month. So in order to arrive on time, travelers had to schedule 80% more time in their travel through the corridor, and that equated to a $15.5 million cost of that unreliability in December alone to the economy.

76. 0:23:59

    And it's not just that little sliver of a very large interstate system. You can see the map on the right shows in gray the counties that have trips that are dependent upon this corridor in some way, shape, or form throughout the day, throughout the month. The darker the gray, the more dependence, but if it's showing up in gray at all, it's g- that County has trips on it, their way to or from that county that rely on this corridor. And it's, it's, uh, would-- will continue to be an issue unless we're able to build these express lanes going in both directions that then will en- en- enable 70% more vehicles to pass through the corridor than can today.

77. 0:24:47

    And not all those vehicles are cars. A lot of those vehicles are trucks. In fact, 18 to 20% of the vehicles on that corridor every day are trucks, and so that's about 30,000 trucks a day. $620 million worth of, uh, freight on a daily basis moves through that corridor. And over the course of a year, that is $226 billion, or about 23%, nearly a quarter of the value of freight moving on Georgia's roads moves through this corridor every year.

78. 0:25:26

    In fact, it's such a, a critical corridor that the-- we've gotten another unfortunate national notoriety by the American Trucking Associations. These are, uh, representatives throughout the country of truckers themselves, the truck drivers, and the companies, uh, that own and run trucks. This is the worst freight bottleneck corridor in the United States. Um, one through 11, this is actually number 12 in bottleneck total, but number one through 11 are interchanges.

79. 0:25:56

    Think I-285 at, at 85. Spaghetti Junction is an interchange. One through 12 are interchanges throughout the country. Um, the first corridor, worst in the nation, is this, uh, this segment. And the only other state that has more bottlenecks than Georgia is Texas, and there are four and a half Georgia, uh, land areas will fit into Texas. So we are, uh, truly, uh, looking forward to this, uh, appropriation being able to deploy these dollars because what we know is happening is more growth.

80. 0:26:33

    The population of Nashville is going to be coming to Atlanta roads. This equates to about every time Metro Atlantans get on the road every day, there's 200 more people in front of us who are trying to travel and get somewhere. That is how many people are moving here through 2025, and more jobs too. And you can see the, the contrast in the maps here from the green to the blue. Green is where people live. Blue is where they work. This is commuting that will be happening, uh, and continuing to congest our roadways.

81. 0:27:07

    The corridor's traffic is going to double by 2050. So, um, that- You say that so sadly. Did you hear her voice just kind of just double? It's already sad today. Uh, that concludes my presentation, Chairman. Sure. We're gonna ... I'll, I'm gonna start off with a few questions while as the members will start popping in here. I just have a few... Let me turn it down just a little bit. Um, yeah, people ask me questions all the time, and I kind of keep 'em in my little notebook here, a few of them.

82. 0:27:42

    So I, so I've got my list here. So on express lanes that we have, the current ones we have, the money that's collected goes back to pay what? It- How, what... where does it go? Uh, the first place it goes is to pay off debt service, uh, that was used to, uh, create and expand the lanes. It also goes to operate and maintain the, the, the lanes. The ability to collect tolls cost money. That is hardware and software, customer interface, customer systems, customer service, the, the reversing of the lanes and the clearing of the lanes, and we are also, uh, working to put money in reserves so we have our own rainy day fund.

83. 0:28:25

    Okay. I didn't know that part. Okay. Okay, I guess, I guess his question the other day was about on 85 coming in, 'cause those are existing lanes. He said, "Where does that money go?" And I said, "Well, I don't really know. I guess it goes into the big pot of all- " Yes, as a system ... express lane." Yeah, as a system. Okay. So what goes into determining the rate? When we get on the north side, where I'm at all the time, versus even the south side, h- how do y'all determine... Is it an algorithm, or how do y'all determine the rate that's on the, um, ex- express lane?

84. 0:28:58

    It is both algorithm, uh, that guides us, and real people who make the final decision about what the toll rate should be. Because we know the calculation can't tell us exactly what's the best rate to, to predict and hopefully influence human behavior. Uh, so this is all about pricing the demand and making sure that we can, uh, set the toll level so that there aren't too many cars that get into the lane. Uh, it is more challenging for us on I-85 than on the other corridors.

85. 0:29:31

    For those of you who have traveled on I-85 in Gwinnett County, you know you can get into and out of those lanes very easily, so that's very challenging to set the right toll rate there. Uh, as well as there's only one lane in each direction there, so the toll rate has to be higher. So it's, it's a very simple supply, demand. The s- lower the supply, uh, the higher the demand, the higher the price has to be. So every day on your staff, you got somebody looking at what the flow is, and- We do ... algorithm from last year, years before, and then making that in, a decision right then.

86. 0:30:01

    That's right. Okay. So we'll just start the members' questions. 18, Vance Smith.

87. 0:30:12

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and, uh, thank you. Oh, I thought I did. Thank you, Janine. Um, and good to see you, Meg. Looking for the... And you mentioned 2050, traffic's gonna double. When you go to design this corridor with these new lanes, do you look all the way to '50, or do you try to build the lanes that will accommodate the cars in 2050? That is an excellent question. We do our very best to design, and I'll let Meg talk to this more, for the multi-decade life o- of this asset.

88. 0:30:47

    Uh, uh, how long we're actually able to extend the express lanes will depend on the appropriation that we get. But the, the lane, when you do build from point A to point B, can I ask? Oh, oh, yeah, please. Yes, sir. When you do, do go from point A to point B, the ones that you build, do you try to build those to the 2050, or? Yes. Yes. Okay. Do you wanna answer? I mean, well, express lanes add an option for a more guaranteed travel time. We may not be able to build enough lanes on any interstate in Atlanta to accommodate all the traffic that could go through there, but the idea of the express lanes is that you have an option when you need it to get that guaranteed express time, a guaranteed travel time.

89. 0:31:31

    And one follow-up, Mr. Chairman? Yes, sir. Please. Uh, you know, we, for years, we've, uh, you've worked on the truck lanes coming out of Macon and the right of way and, and, um, it was mentioned about the percentage of trucks. How is... Where are we with that? H- how are we with the truck lanes from I-16 coming up 70- 75? Kind of give us a schedule of what's going on there. We are still in the engineering phase of that project, and I believe we have right of way scheduled in 2028.

90. 0:32:03

    Mm-hmm. Is that right? Yes. And so we've been procuring right of way all along in ad- as advance acquisitions, but the actual right of way phase is funded in 2028, and we are looking forward to moving forward with procurement, I think, in 2029. It's pending environmental approvals. Yes. They just balanced the STIP, and so I know that they are... But yes, we are in the environmental process, and we need to, um, we've developed a document, and we'll be coordinating with FHWA on the approval of the NEPA document. Um- And you're describing from out, from Savannah- Yes, the two- ...

91. 0:32:38

    north ... truck lanes from Atlan- from Macon north. Yeah, from Macon, I-16 up 75. Okay. Yeah. Through Forsyth, I think it's. Okay. Yes. Yeah. Up to Henry County is kind of where they wanna go. Yes, sir. Thank y'all very much. Appreciate it. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Yes, sir. Well, um, on the express lane on I-75, I know we're still in the early stages, will, will trucks be allowed on that, or is that gonna be only cars only? Have we decided yet, or we're thinking about both or everything? Uh, as it, as they are today, trucks are not allowed in the lane.

92. 0:33:11

    Uh, we, there are some trucks that do get in the lane, and we rely on, uh, Georgia State Patrol to help us enforce that. Uh, so it, it's a, it's a, it's a challenge. We know a lot of, uh, our drivers do enjoy being away from trucks when they're in the lanes. Uh, but we know e- even, uh, in a, in a continued posture where there's only cars allowed in the lanes, the trucks will benefit on the general purpose lanes because it's going to be so free flow.

93. 0:33:39

    And I know some, in some other ways, I'll bring that up. I know in some other states, trucks are allowed in the express lane.

94. 0:33:46

    That's true.

95. 0:33:47

    D- different... I didn't know where we were at with that.

96. 0:33:49

    Yeah.

97. 0:33:49

    Next, uh, Chairman Hagan.

98. 0:33:52

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Janita and Meg, for being here with us today. My question's about the Georgia Transportation Infrastructure Bank. S- some of our airports believe, and I don't know if it's accurate or not, that if they a- apply for and receive one of these loans or grants, that they're not eligible to apply for any of the GDOT's discretionary funding for a period of time. Do, do you... Is that accurate or have they gotten some bad information from somewhere?

99. 0:34:21

    I don't think that's accurate. I haven't heard that.

100. 0:34:22

     Not accurate.

101. 0:34:23

     Mm-mm.

102. 0:34:23

     Okay.

103. 0:34:23

     We don't have that policy at, at SRTA.

104. 0:34:26

     Okay.

105. 0:34:26

     Uh-

106. 0:34:27

     Yeah. It's-

107. 0:34:27

     We, we wanna do what's necessary

108. 0:34:29

     ... unrelated.

109. 0:34:29

     Okay.

110. 0:34:30

     There, there was some language, uh, maybe this is where it originated. We wanted to make sure w- we at SRTA, in collaboration with GDOT and the General Assembly last year, that the dollars that were gonna be avail- available for, through the GTIB, were going to supplement, uh, federal and not supplant. Like, we didn't want to, to put money in and the feds said, "Oh, you're already covered." So that's, that was maybe where some of the confusion came from.

111. 0:35:00

     Okay.

112. 0:35:00

     But, so what we're doing is we're funding hangars, uh, with-

113. 0:35:03

     Mm-hmm

114. 0:35:03

     ... with this, which are not a typical federal-

115. 0:35:05

     Right

116. 0:35:05

     ... uh, eligibility. So it, they'll come... The, the funds will be able to come together for a full airport.

117. 0:35:11

     They c- they can do both?

118. 0:35:12

     Yes.

119. 0:35:13

     Mm-hmm.

120. 0:35:13

     Okay. But there's no, um, prohibition of them funding g-

121. 0:35:18

     No

122. 0:35:18

     ... asking for discretionary money?

123. 0:35:19

     Correct. No prohibition.

124. 0:35:20

     Very good. Thank you for clearing that up. Thank you.

125. 0:35:23

     Next up, Chairman Corbett.

126. 0:35:27

     Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And, uh, to say I'm excited about the new lane, uh, I, I can't express how grateful I am for that. I plan my trip coming from South Georgia and going back home-

127. 0:35:37

     Mm-hmm

128. 0:35:37

     ... depending on the direction, you know, when that lane's gonna be going the direction I'm headed. So that, that's, that's great news. And, uh, you talked about planning out into the future. Uh, have you looked into your crystal ball? What effect will these flying cars and f- air taxis, uh, gonna have on transportation in the future?

129. 0:35:53

     Uh, I guess they're refer- they're also called EVTOLs, electric vertical take-off and landing.

130. 0:35:59

     Yes.

131. 0:35:59

     Uh, we have not built that into our, our planning yet because they are not, uh, you know, fully authorized to be flying around. Uh, we keep an eye, our eye on it though. Uh, I think what is more likely to happen in this window, uh, are autonomous vehicles, um, like the Waymo types and the... There's a transit company called Beep and a transit company called May Mobility, uh, that they run small buses that run autonomously with no bus driver.

132. 0:36:33

     Those types of things we're looking at and building those into our plans.

133. 0:36:38

     One follow up?

134. 0:36:39

     Yes, sir. Please.

135. 0:36:40

     And, and that was my follow-up question about autonomous cars and trucks. They're gonna be going in, in platoon. I think the accidents that we, we see will go way down wh- when, like, with the, uh, autonomous cars coming in the future.

136. 0:36:50

     That is one of our objectives, one of our primary objectives. And, and, uh, a cr- critical part to facilitating autonomy, uh, GDOT is doing on our interstates, we're building out broadband fiber on all of our interstates. It's gonna take time, but to have that fiber backbone infrastructure will support the over-the-air autonomous data exchange in real time that we need, uh, along our interstates. So excited for that.

137. 0:37:19

     Chairman McDonald.

138. 0:37:23

     Thank you. Thank you for being here. A couple questions, Mr. Chairman. Um, one that I have is, of course, we always look the, when you start projects, where the money's coming from. W- uh, can we get it funded? Knowing that help is on the way with the 75 Henry County area project, what's the timeline do you think the start time of a project like this might be?

139. 0:37:45

     Well, we have p- if you, if there is a starting time, we've already started. We've done a lot of analysis so far. Not nearly enough, but, uh, in the amended 2024 budget, you all appropriated 10 million of state general funds. We matched federal funds to that. That has helped us to, uh, ignite the work, uh, but we've got a long way until we are un- in full, full function. Uh, the phases, and Meg can talk more about this, are... is going to include design, a lot of, a lot of design to get it right.

140. 0:38:18

     Uh, environmental permitting, public involvement, uh, uh, working with our, uh, bond and, and debt finance options, traffic and revenue studies. There's a lot of work left to do. The, the type of procurement we'll do all has yet to be determined before we're at a point to, to let, let it to contract. Is there anything you want to add?

141. 0:38:40

     Well, I mean, what's a guess... I mean, I'm j- you know, the consumer wa- they're watching, you know, the money go out or be planned for this, and they ask us questions. So what, you know, what's something that when we get these questions we might be able to say?

142. 0:38:53

     So I'd say if it's funded, I mean, we haven't started the engineering and haven't developed a schedule for a project. But I would say probably, uh, three to four years-

143. 0:39:06

     Mm-hmm

144. 0:39:07

     ... maybe five years to develop the project. Yeah.

145. 0:39:10

     And get it to a contract-

146. 0:39:12

     Yes

147. 0:39:12

     ... green light. Yeah.

148. 0:39:14

     A follow-up question. Uh, how much do- does the authority have in its rainy day fund?

149. 0:39:18

     We are working on that right now. Analysis is underway of the, the various types of, of, uh, allowances that state law lets us do with our funds. And, uh, so we're, we're putting that financial plan together now. It's... We're probably two, three months away from that being complete. One last question. And, and it's page seven. Of course, obviously, the, um... if you've gotta go to the, the hometown. I look at the 400 corridor. Of course, I've had discussion with you about the, the free lanes on the inside. And of course, we know we've got some toll lanes coming up at that area.

150. 0:39:52

     Mm-hmm. But you look at the north side of Forsyth, right going into Dawson- Mm-hmm ... where you see it just go red again. Yep. Uh, is there any plan in the future to what y'all are doing on 316, looking at the, just the three or four spots on in Forsyth County north of 369 that you could kinda do the same thing you're doing on 316, which would alleviate accidents? We have a lot of fatalities in that area. Um, and I was just kinda looking at then, you know, bottlenecks right there. It, it is, uh, one of the fastest growing, if not the fastest growing county in the state.

151. 0:40:24

     Uh, and we have done a study of 400 all the way up into Lumpkin and White County. Uh, and the cost estimates on that, probably three years old, was, was about $300 million, uh, to, to make the necessary improvements. I don't know... I can't recall if that is an entire interstate-like facility that we studied back then, but we can get that, that, uh, report out to you. Yeah. Just 10 more questions.

152. 0:40:54

     Uh, no, just kidding. Those of us that live along that corridor would like to see that. I didn't know we'd had a study done on that. Representative Clifton. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Well done. You should be on. I know. What do we got here? Oh, that's a... Go ahead. Yeah. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That, Casey, let me borrow your, uh- You know what? How about here? My... That was user error. That was on me. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Oh, now there we go. Oh, we got- This is so funny. Whatever.

153. 0:41:24

     New in box. Sorry, Danny. Um, so I lived in Atlanta about 10 years ago and drove the top of 285 every day. I can only imagine what that looks like now. Is there any appetite for an upper, um, for 285 that would be essentially an express lane that could connect 75 to 85, and then maybe have 400 to where people, uh... And we'd literally build it right on top. Uh, are you talking about additional lanes, additional roadway lanes? I would be... I'm talking more of building a bridge on top of 285 that sits kinda like, um...

154. 0:41:58

     I mean, there's, like, some cities, Atlanta and Chicago, that have kinds of uppers and lowers that run with each other. But the... 'Cause 285's gonna be landlocked as well. You're not gonna really be able to get to the side of it to put an express lane in, so just put one on top. Well, we are in the process of procuring, uh, a express lane network on 285 that would go all the way from I-20 on the east to I-20 on the west. That's happening in segments. Uh, it is a very, very large endeavor, you can imagine, uh, for that length of a stretch of road, but also the complexities of the land use, uh, and available roadways.

155. 0:42:33

     We're in procurement now. I might let Meg talk about that, uh, s- I wanna be careful about what we, what we say. We're starting on the east side between I-85 and 400, and, uh, we will be accepting bids on those pro- on that project this summer. So that will, that will be the first small piece of what's gonna be a much larger system. And the design of which, how much of it is flyover or at grade is still TB, to, to be determined? Yeah, that's to be determined. The final design will be completed by the developer. So that would be the north side of 285 from 20 all the way up back down to 20?

156. 0:43:09

     Yep. To have an express lane that rolls all the way around? Eventually, yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. Awesome. Okay, thank you. Yeah. Representative Clifton, Chairman McDonald was sure wanting to know if Clifton Construction was, have a bridge subsidiary. That's right. I did. I did. I did. Yes. Now it's on the board. Now it's on. Chairman Carpenter, you're up. Yeah. Thank you. Uh, two questions. First question is, do you guys... I don't know that I've ever recalled seeing, like, a full kinda income statement balance sheet from you guys.

157. 0:43:43

     Do y'all submit... Do, does that come through the, the transportation appropriation process, or where did... Have y'all... I've never seen it, so is- We do have an annual report- Okay ... that's available on our website. Okay. And we're working, uh, with... Our fiscal '25, uh, annual report is, we've just kicked it off 'cause we've just finished our financial close, closeout and audit. So that'll be available soon. But right now on our website, the, the fiscal, through fiscal '24 is available. Okay. And then one, one follow-up, Chairman. Uh, has there ever been... I know we do a lot of public-private partnerships for these projects, obviously, 'cause the revenue stream helps pay for it in the future.

158. 0:44:20

     Is there ever been an appetite to have conversations with our retirement systems to utilize them to buy into these programs so that we're actually paying ourself this, these profits and, and, you know, stabilizing that retirement system through the future? Great question. Uh, infrastructure as an asset class is, uh, around the world is very high performing in terms of the returns to investors. There are other, uh, pension programs throughout the world that do this. CalPERS is one of them, California.

159. 0:44:50

     Uh, Toronto Teachers, uh, also invest. It is a programmatic endeavor though, and, uh, it, it takes a lot of robust staff and effort and expertise within those retirement systems to invest in infrastructure like this. Uh, so decisions about that are far above and beyond my pay grade and, and, uh, and, and expertise, uh, in that. But another, I think, challenge that why it's really just so few, uh, uh, retirement systems that invest in as- in transportation asset class, 'cause there's not enough of a pipeline of new projects coming forward.

160. 0:45:28

     Georgia is leading the country right now in, in public-private partnerships, and we can't build enough and can't build them fast enough. But there are far too few public-private partnership endeavors happening across the country. So it's a great idea. Concept works. It's just a, a, a robust set of activities initially and ongoing that the retirement system would have to i- itself invest in.

161. 0:45:52

     Great thought, Kasey. It's number 16, representative of our secretary, Mr. McCollum. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for being here. Uh, I have a- a few questions. Um, w- one simple question is, so as, uh, vehicles drive their self, not autonomous, but obviously people in them, are we putting any kind... And, and I don't know this technology, you might not know. Are we putting any kind of special paint or wires or anything on the HOV lanes to help them track better? I don't know if that's even necessary. Is that something that's even...

162. 0:46:22

     Are they, are they finding- They, they use the stripes that are on the road- That's- ... and the global positioning that they have in their software systems. So are we updating them? 'Cause I know a lot of lanes, HOV lanes coming from 85 are, you know, not there, the w- the lines and things like that. That might not be a question for y'all, but... We certainly endeavor to keep the l- the lines visible and fresh. And, um, if there's a certain portion you're concerned about, let me know, and I'll be glad to let you know when we have it scheduled for re-striping. Okay. Okay. And, uh, another question.

163. 0:46:54

     Um, so I know we've, we've got money in the budget for 316, the ongoing thing. Is that 316 project, um, the 316/85 merge? I know that's a huge bottleneck. I drive it every single morning, um, and I know, uh, Commissioner McMurray h- sp- spoke about it. Is that something that, that is part of that 316, or is it a total separate project as far as m- put another lane in? Great, great question. It... We have noticed it as a massive problem.

164. 0:47:26

     Yeah. Uh, as, as you do as drivers. Uh, so I'll let Meg talk, speak to the schedule on it, but it is separate from the other 316 work. This is part of the repaving that we're doing. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I mean, are, are you asking if we're adding capacity at 316 at 85? Uh, uh, I guess I'm asking about the merge. So now you have 316 coming into 85, it's one lane. Mm-hmm. Then the other lane comes in, and it just pretty much stops there. Yeah. Because I know, uh, Commissioner McMurray had, had mentioned that potentially adding another lane so it could...

165. 0:48:02

     and it would run on past Pleasant Hill and, and, and carry on down a little farther. Uh- Okay. The, the last briefing I got on it from my, the, the, the tolling team is that with the repaving, we are able to, to have a couple of lanes for a longer period of time- Okay ... before the merge happens- Mm-hmm ... to enable that to be a more natural and safe coming together of those two facilities, 85 HOT and 316. So as we're doing the repaving, we're s- nudging over a little bit. We're not adding new pavement.

166. 0:48:33

     Yeah, that's fine. I was just- Okay. So that is just something we already gonna have. Yes. We're just gonna pretty much realign it. And it'll have two lanes that'll run you out farther. Yes. Okay. Now, where we are in the letting of that, I'm not exactly sure, but that is sooner than and not part of the 316 projects. Okay. And then my last question is, me and you've had this conversation several times, is truck parking. Yeah. Georgia is so far behind on truck parking. Our poor truck drivers have nowhere to park. They're parking on ramps on the side of the expressway, which is illegal, which they have no choice.

167. 0:49:06

     They have nowhere to stop and eat. Yep. Um, and I know we've talked about, you know, public-pr- private partnership. Um, and I know we've talked about, you know, getting local communities to make it so you can park on... These communities aren't gonna zone those things because- Mm-hmm ... it's just a, they think it's a blight. Mm-hmm. So what are we gonna do? Um, you know, I have suggested widening some of our ramps and making... 'Cause we've got a lot of roadway on the ramps, and making truck parking at least safely on the ramps until we come up with something.

168. 0:49:42

     Uh, do y'all have, do you have any suggestions or any ideas or anything? Yeah. We've been studying this. It's, uh, with all the freight we have and what's coming, it's, it's gonna continue to be a problem, a big problem here, uh, in, in Metro Atlanta and throughout the state. As it exists today, 94% of truck parking is private, and only 6% is supplied by Georgia DOT. We do have, uh, projects in our pipeline to add truck parking to our rest areas, the, uh, rest areas that exist today, but those are not- And weigh stations.

169. 0:50:18

     And weigh stations, yeah. Those are not predominantly in Metro Atlanta, where the biggest problem is. Right. Um, 'cause we just don't have rest areas here. Mm-hmm. Uh, so our, uh, we are underway. We're going to hopefully be kicking it off soon. How do we do that public-private partnership? What is the right way to do it? We've looked at it, uh, a hu- hundred different ways, uh, because what truck drivers require when they're on their break varies. Mm-hmm. Sometimes they're just laying over and staging.

170. 0:50:49

     It might look like they're parked overnight, but they're really just waiting for that, that 30-minute window to make their delivery a block down the road. Right. So it's, there's all kinds of different reasons that they park. If they're parking for a long period of time, they really want and should have amenities. That's food, showers, place to safely rest, uh, in, in secured areas, and that is not something the state is best to provide, uh, for that long-term parking. So we're looking at how can we as the state, um, initiate and partner with the private sector to incentivize those facilities to be constructed for truck drivers.

171. 0:51:29

     It's not easy. Um, yeah. One follow-up, Mr. Chairman? Sure. So are there a way that the state can, uh... I know, you know, we have local control, you know, home rule, but are there a way that s- the state can take over some land? I mean, or obviously purchase it, just like we do in the port and all those- Mm-hmm ... and, and make truck parking with... I know the limited access is a, would be great, but that's a issue, if I'm not mistaken, by federal regulations, correct? So we're gonna have...

172. 0:51:59

     So are there a way that we potentially could do i- uh, inland port, but for truck parking where we just get the land ourselves and just do it-

173. 0:52:09

     Mm-hmm

174. 0:52:09

     ... uh, without any zonings from the locals?

175. 0:52:12

     Mm-hmm. We, we think there are, uh, various public-private partnership models that we could follow. Uh, one of them is the, the acquisition of the land ourselves. Another might be similar to the way we do the, uh, what's called the NEVI program. It was a federal program for electric vehicle charging where the f- the federal government supplied, uh, a lot of the money, 80% of the money. The private sector matched with 20%, and it's on a private facility somewhere.

176. 0:52:38

     Mm-hmm.

177. 0:52:38

     So GDOT, in that case, is the conduit for that. Uh, so we're looking at all kinds of various models. We have to, um... Y- y- you're, you're correct about the, uh, local zoning and, and concerns. I think wherever trucks are parked, whether they're parked safely in a, in a truck parking facility or parked on the side of the roadway, local governments don't like-

178. 0:52:59

     Mm-hmm

179. 0:52:59

     ... either one of them. So it, it, in, in many cases, not all cases. Uh, so w- we're... It's a lot to balance and look at, and we're gonna be doing a deeper dive into how to actually execute that. It may require some, uh, additional funding that we don't have available to us at the state. We're also gonna be looking to the federal government, applying for grants, uh, for that from-

180. 0:53:18

     Mm

181. 0:53:18

     ... from this administration.

182. 0:53:20

     Okay. Thank you.

183. 0:53:21

     Yeah. Thank you.

184. 0:53:21

     Thank you, Miss Chair.

185. 0:53:25

     Very important issue. We did our truck, uh, freight study a few years ago. That was probably the number one thing there.

186. 0:53:33

     Mm-hmm.

187. 0:53:33

     So for the ne- for the next question, I wanna get s- I'm gonna ask you a couple just to make you think about it, get it in your mind, 'cause there's all kinds of questions that we get for, uh, Miss Janine on the step. You know, how do we get projects in the transportation improvement plan?

188. 0:53:51

     Mm-hmm.

189. 0:53:52

     You know, whether they be roundabouts or widening or any of the things any of these members and the other 180 members are gonna come up with. And I know Chairman Powell's next up, and he has had a lot of questions about this, and you're up next. Chairman Powell?

190. 0:54:06

     Sure. Thank you. I want to thank y'all. I'm a freshman on this committee. So, so I haven't really got into a whole lot of stuff for transportation because of 36 years of meddling in other stuff. But it's become incumbent on me to realize I need to be on this committee, 'cause Rick is tired of fielding my inquiries to him.

191. 0:54:28

     Welcome.

192. 0:54:29

     Um, I represent a side of the state that we're not recognized as being part of Georgia, thanks to the, uh, 1948, uh, federal FCC, uh, edict that put five of us counties over in South Carolina.

193. 0:54:43

     Oh.

194. 0:54:44

     And if anybody wants to know what I'm talking about, when you look at your evening news or your morning news, you'll see all the news, but you'll see a gray area of part of Eastern Georgia. And because of that, we feel like we're left out on a lot of things.

195. 0:54:57

     Mm.

196. 0:54:57

     And transportation could be one of them. And I don't... And I'm, what I'm gonna get into, not meaning to be critical, because I certainly appreciate DOT working with the Franklin Heart Airport authorities who are trying to move that forward to try to capture some of that business that's going to Greenville and Anderson.

197. 0:55:15

     Mm-hmm.

198. 0:55:15

     And I really have a, an itch on when the industries that fly in that use incentives and stuff are parking them damn planes over in the Carolinas, and that's the reason we're pushing. So I thank y'all for your help on that.

199. 0:55:29

     Mm-hmm.

200. 0:55:30

     Uh, I also want to thank y'all for not putting that four-way stop up on US 29 halfway between Hartwell and Royston. You just probably saved a lot of lives by doing it. And I guess there's a reason for putting these four-way stops on these highways. I was always of the mind that the less stops that you got on a highway, the faster you can get traffic, but I want to thank you for that. I'm listening to a lot of this stuff, and I'm learning a lot about the structure, and, uh, my good friend, the chairman, just alluded to it.

201. 0:56:01

     Um, several questions. Um, I'm gonna start with the easy ones, because even he didn't understand. He didn't know when I quizzed him about the GRIP project. And I come to find out not a whole lot of people know what the GRIP project was. That's the 17 corridor-

202. 0:56:17

     Mm-hmm

203. 0:56:17

     ... uh, that was in its infancy when I was first elected, and they're still getting there.

204. 0:56:23

     Yeah.

205. 0:56:23

     They four-laned the tail end of it from South Georgia. The upper end of it is supposed to be that four-lane transport. And it was said at the time was to keep tractor-trailers from having to go into Atlanta and circle around and come up 85 from 20 and 16.

206. 0:56:40

     Mm-hmm.

207. 0:56:41

     Any idea, since, uh, my county's met with some of your folks a few weeks ago, and they were told that it was, like, another 20 years off of filling in that gap between Martin, Georgia, and Elberton and that gap. Any idea what the timeframe is on that?

208. 0:57:00

     I'm looking at-

209. 0:57:01

     Or is it like everything else, based on money?

210. 0:57:03

     It's up here. Yeah, it's in, that's what's in PE. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes, and that's a corridor that had very low traffic, so I think it, when you were balancing, it was one of the corridors that got moved out further because there's very low traffic in that corridor. Yeah. Uh, s- so the GRIP Cor- GRIP network, for those of you who don't know, uh, h- is the, a, a grid of four-lane roads throughout the state of Georgia. It has been absolutely pivotal for our economic development. Uh, I think we have an enviable system that attracts businesses 'cause they can, they know that their, uh, trucks can get on a four-lane safe road, quickly get to the interstate.

211. 0:57:42

     It's been a boon for us, uh, and kind of a sleep, sleeper policy, I think, that's made a big difference. Uh, there are... We are not done with the GRIP corridor network. That corridor is not the only one that we're not done with. Many of them are, that are not yet done have a lot to do with environmental, uh, issues that are just simply gonna be nearly impossible to overcome. Uh, this is in preliminary engineering. I will double-check to see exactly where we are and what the, what the status might be on, on this. We know, uh, that freight does move throughout the region, and with, um, Rivian coming in pretty close to you all, that there's gonna be...

212. 0:58:20

     And all the additional freight movement that's happening in northeast Georgia, that there'll be c- continue to be demand there. So I will double-check on that.

213. 0:58:27

     Thank you. 85.

214. 0:58:29

     Mm-hmm.

215. 0:58:29

     You know, we've been, uh, DOT has been moving the side of Atlanta toward the state line.

216. 0:58:34

     Mm-hmm.

217. 0:58:34

     And we're down now to the commerce to the state line.

218. 0:58:37

     Mm-hmm.

219. 0:58:38

     Any idea about, uh, the dates or anything so I can hopefully I'm out of office by that half time that happens?

220. 0:58:46

     Uh, it is a very critical corridor. We have other... That and, and two other interstates, uh, s- interstate corridors throughout the state that we know must be mi- widened to accommodate the, not just the people traffic, but the car traffic, but the, the truck traffic. Uh, and we do not, as, as of now, have the dollars identified for that in the four-year window. We're hoping that in the out year, we're doing for the first time a 10-year budget. Uh, we've not done that yet, uh, in, at GDOT, so that w- that is underway.

221. 0:59:18

     And where we can nestle that, those interstate widenings in, I will do so because, uh, of how important that is.

222. 0:59:26

     It's all about money.

223. 0:59:27

     It is. Um, and things, uh, and I don't know, uh, if, if you or others had the opportunity to hear the commissioner speak about the cost increases, but we're, we're almost, uh, at a place where it's like a perfect storm, um, and that's a term that GDOT doesn't like to hear, so they've had enough of storms, um, in the past, uh, few weeks. Um, crash course would be another term that is not, also not good to use, but that's what it, it's what we're looking like. All this population growth, freight growth, number one. Um, the, the cost inflation that we've experienced since the bipartisan infrastructure law four and a half years ago, costs for construction nationwide have gone up 70%, and we've got data points for each various type of, of project and, and commodity, some of which are north of 70% increase in, in cost that we did not budget for, we could not have ever budgeted for.

224. 1:00:19

     It's pushing projects out. And then the third, uh, aspect of this, uh, of this coalescence of problems is the aging of our infrastructure. Uh, our interstate system is ve- getting very, very old, and a lot of it is requiring, uh, reconstruction and rebuild. Billions of dollars of maintenance throughout, uh, the state is required. So those are the pressures that we are feeling and seeing in this 10-year budget, uh, that is m- keeping us from keeping up with the growth.

225. 1:00:50

     Yeah. My last question is, a- and it's something I don't know anything about. Nobody can give me an answer. My good friend alluded to it about the, the roundabout programs. You know, I s- live in, uh, part of my... Well, my home is Hartwell, Georgia. US 29, it runs out of the Carolinas through the city of Hartwell.

226. 1:01:12

     Mm-hmm.

227. 1:01:12

     The main corridor.

228. 1:01:13

     Mm-hmm.

229. 1:01:14

     It is a major cluster. They need help.

230. 1:01:18

     Mm-hmm.

231. 1:01:18

     I mean, it's bogged down. DOT was kind enough, dozen, 10, 12 years ago, made some, uh, uh, when y'all actually had engineers that did some, uh, planning for local governments before it all went to consultants. They did a plan. City of Hartwell couldn't afford it at that time. They least can afford it now.

232. 1:01:36

     Mm-hmm.

233. 1:01:37

     Um, now we're also in the ways of doing a tax, major tax realignment. Um, at the very least, the T-SPLOST taxes with cities have been, uh, not exactly fair to the municipalities 'cause the counties, if they don't want to give up more than what they want to based on population, they don't. But we've got a situation, and I'll talk about these roundabouts. I alluded to that with that four-way stop on US 29 that y'all thankfully-

234. 1:02:07

     Mm-hmm

235. 1:02:07

     ... have decided that wasn't a good idea. If you want to keep traffic moving, roundabout.

236. 1:02:13

     Roundabout.

237. 1:02:13

     You go over into, uh, Franklin Springs. Y'all just put up a three-way stop over there on, uh, 29 and 145.

238. 1:02:22

     Okay.

239. 1:02:23

     Well, the reports that I'm getting from all those folks there is that now with the three-way stop, what we have is traffic backed up in three directions instead of one direction now. So my question is, with all of the discussion, and these folks here have been here for a while, and they're a lot smarter than I am, but I don't know enough about the infrastructure bank and all of that, but has there been any discussion, uh, among the brain trust over at DOT of maybe some kind of a infrastructure loan program to local governments in the way of these roundabouts?

240. 1:03:00

     And maybe even so, it would seem to me, being US 29, being a federal, quote, "designated road"-

241. 1:03:08

     Mm-hmm

242. 1:03:09

     ... that there shouldn't be some kind of priority placed to move this traffic. And I know that we're insignificant over on our side of the state in the big picture. When you look at this, uh, stuff on 75 in Henry County, when you look at, uh, the metro area and the traffic, we feel blessed that we live where we are. But we're also under the, under the, uh, band of a lot of growth up that way.

243. 1:03:36

     Yeah.

244. 1:03:37

     And that's the stuff that I'm talking about, to try to hit it while we can still hit it to move on quickly.

245. 1:03:43

     Mm-hmm.

246. 1:03:44

     Is, is there any thoughts over at the department about some kind of a revolving fund or something to make something available or a process, uh- the Franklin County folks on that 145, uh, US 29, they met with the, uh, the DOT folks a week or two ago, and they were told that, "Well, we've got it on the round... It's gonna be on the roundabout program, 2032." Mm-hmm. You tell people that six years off, and they talk about the prosperity of when you hear it's the prosperity of Georgia, they say, "Whoa." Something doesn't seem v- is it just us?

247. 1:04:20

     And I know it's not just us, but it seems to be everything 'cause everything revolves around money and planning. So is there anything or any ideas that might have been put forth about some kind of revolving fund or a infrastructure for something like that for roundabouts to help these local governments? Uh, not specifically for roundabouts, and we do love roundabouts. Um, um, I, we, we are judicious about where they go. Uh, we don't, we don't, they don't go in everywhere. And I say we as if... I'm not the engineer.

248. 1:04:51

     GDOT has thousands of them who are experts and always defer to them. But they, where, where I've seen them, where we have seen them, they work tremendously both for traffic flow and for safety. I mean, there's, they're really unparalleled. Um, we do not have a roundabout specific program, although roundabouts do qualify for and are, and do very well in, uh, certain federal programs that we administer. I don't think in that corner of the state they're eligible for one particular fund, but maybe another, and we could talk about that. Um, they're also part of the safety program.

249. 1:05:22

     Yes. Uh, and our s- we have too many sa- demands for safety improvements around the state. We're so oversubscribed in that. That's another, uh, fund source area that we're looking at, uh, as a problem, as being a problem. Uh, but there, the infrastructure bank that is at the State Road Tollway Authority, um, hope you've gotten one of these cards. Um, even though it's a US route and a GDOT route, we would still accept application absolutely from the local government for that. Uh, and we would then work with GDOT on, uh, how it, how it would make sense for the whole rest of the program and the system.

250. 1:05:57

     And there are certain, uh, when we look at high traffic volumes and crash rates, that kind of project could come up to the top of the stack of the, the applications that we receive at the infrastructure bank. So we'd love to get an application from the city. So the infrastructure bank would qualify for local governments to do their- Yes, sir ... match to- Yes, sir ... a project like what the city of Harl was experiencing or the Franklin's, uh, city of Franklin Springs. Precisely what it's for. Yes. Good to know. Yeah. Thank you very much.

251. 1:06:27

     Thank you. Look forward to the application.

252. 1:06:33

     Chairman Thomas.

253. 1:06:36

     Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, I'm, uh, looking at page seven here, just to get you, uh, right on the same page. Um, obviously, you know, it, it's funny when, when you... I always tell people, when you look at a picture, the first person you look for is yourself in the picture, right? Well, I, I know when it comes to state map, I think everybody looks for their own county first. So I looked at mine, Cherokee. Um, I- I'm curious, uh, could you kind of break down how we, these two? 'Cause on the left side it's all red, and it's, uh, shows more congested, but then on the right side it seems to be a lot more green, and I'm gonna be totally honest, I'm a little color deficient, so I wanna make sure I'm reading this right.

254. 1:07:18

     On the left, it's more congested. On the right, it's less congested. G- By percentage? Good question. It, so the, the left, the red-green is just, is it more or less congested, yes or no? It's just a- Versus a- a- as... I- I guess what I'm asking is h- how did, what variables did you put in? I mean, what was your baseline to understand, like more or less? I- 2019. 'Cause- Yeah ... I could tell you, I drive these roads and it sure don't feel more, or, uh, it feels more, more congested than it feels less congested, so I don't, uh- For sure.

255. 1:07:50

     Yeah. This is, number one, 2019 versus- Yeah ... today, basically. Okay. And this is middle of the day. Mm-hmm. So we have other, uh, maps that show peak hours, rush hours- Mm-hmm ... uh, that look different than this. Uh, but the, if, if it's yellow, it's just a little bit more congested. On the right map, it's just a little bit more- Okay. Okay, so the, the percent change. Yeah. It, it- And if it's red, it's a lot more congested than it used to be in 2019. Okay. But I guess the flow of traffic, I m- I mean, at, at 2019 there wasn't any HOV lanes or any...

256. 1:08:23

     That wasn't available in 2019. So- They were. Mm-hmm. It, it, they came up in 2019? Yeah. They opened up in 2017. Yeah. So we've had HOV lanes since the late 1990s. That's inside the perimeter. But, but I'm ta- yeah, I'm talking about the, the main corridor of I-75. Express lanes. The express. Express lanes opened- I said HOV. Thank you, Chairman. I meant, meant express. Uh, and the express lanes opened in 2018 in the northwest corridor. Okay. So, uh, I guess the, again, I- I'm, I'm not sure that I'm... I'd like...

257. 1:08:53

     What's it, R-I-T-I-S? Mm-hmm. Do you keep... How, how do you get a hold of that? 'Cause I, I'd really like to see that if I'm- We've got... We would love to show you this. Well, come on over. If you want to take your team and the data- We'll sit crunch numbers ... we got a bunch of it. That sounds like a good day. Um, that'd be getting my mind off some other crazy stuff going around in this place. Um, the other question that I've got actually is on the last page, and I just want to make sure I, I... Because I was looking at... One of the biggest things I talk about a lot, um, back home has to do with the, uh, uh-

258. 1:09:23

     amount of employment in, in, in trying to bring more jobs back to Cherokee County, 'cause the, the biggest issue that we have is that most of our people ... You, you probably gonna maybe see a drop in the middle of the day 'cause everybody has to leave the county to go to their job and then has to drive back.

259. 1:09:37

     Mm-hmm.

260. 1:09:37

     Um, so-

261. 1:09:39

     The, uh, the average in Metro Atlanta is 47% of commuters leave their home county to go to work.

262. 1:09:45

     Okay. And I'd be a- I'd be interested to see if you could take that even farther and see what, how much are from the outer rung of the ARC counties-

263. 1:09:53

     Mm-hmm

264. 1:09:53

     ... that move into the inner rung, 'cause I bet you'd see, see a little bit more on that too.

265. 1:09:58

     Mm-hmm.

266. 1:09:58

     But one of the things I found to be most interesting was, um, like I said, on page 15 when you did the heat map and you, your colors, and it goes ... It says that there's gonna be a total employment of 6,000 to 90,000, which is like an 84,000 increment- ... um, jump in jobs in Cherokee County, and I, I'm very excited about this. I just don't understand how you got to 90. You go from 6,000 to 90,000 in one increment. Is that-

267. 1:10:24

     We bor- we borrowed this from the Atlanta Regional Commission.

268. 1:10:26

     Okay.

269. 1:10:26

     So we, we would, uh-

270. 1:10:27

     So I need to get on ARC and start asking them questions.

271. 1:10:29

     We could, we could source with them. But your county commissioner-

272. 1:10:32

     Yeah

273. 1:10:32

     ... uh, and you've got a mayor-

274. 1:10:33

     Yeah

275. 1:10:33

     ... on the ARC board. They are tremendous-

276. 1:10:35

     Oh, yeah

277. 1:10:36

     ... uh, advocates and, and members of that board. But we can, we can dive further into that if you like.

278. 1:10:40

     Well, because this is, this number's actually kind of exciting for me on this, on this, in this packet-

279. 1:10:44

     Mm-hmm

280. 1:10:45

     ... 'cause that means more people are staying closer to home.

281. 1:10:48

     Mm-hmm.

282. 1:10:48

     So, it, thank you. I, I do ... I would like to follow up on some of these little details-

283. 1:10:52

     Okay

284. 1:10:52

     ... 'cause, you know, that's where the devil's at, right?

285. 1:10:54

     Yep.

286. 1:10:55

     Thank you.

287. 1:10:55

     Love to.

288. 1:10:56

     Thank you. Thank you, Chairman. Last question, Vice Chairman Lauren.

289. 1:11:02

     Thank you. Um, I appreciate you giving me another chance at this. Um, Chairman Powell, my colleagues and I from the North Georgia area, we rode on these grit roads a lot giving hurricane relief to our friends in South Georgia. And, um, the- driving down there, most of the time all I could see was my shadow from my, my truck and my trailer taking, taking help. But, uh, you know, my friends in Forsyth County, the people I represent, just want to say you're welcome, South Georgia, for our tax dollars going there helping with your roads. Um, but secondly, uh, in your planning stages of all this money that's might- about to be infused, whether it's 475, other auxiliary roads, what ...

290. 1:11:42

     Looking at a, a s- a scale, a balancing on a scale with a, a design bid, uh, build or a design build, it seems like, you know, your scale would be weighted on time heavier going design bid build than design build. What, what, what do y'all look at for, for, from the perspective of that we got this money coming, how are you gonna move everything forward quickly? Would, which, which one would you be using?

291. 1:12:11

     Well, any time we are looking at how we're gonna deliver a project, if we assess it for design build, we ... First of all, you're including the design in the, in the contract with the contractor, so b- we wanna make sure that there's enough complexity and innovation in the design for the designer to be part of that contract. If it's pretty simplistic, then it's probably easier to just design it and then bid build it. Um, we also look at, you know, what innovations can be brought through that process, because when we do design build, we go through what's called an alternative technical concept process where during procurement the designers bring us ideas to improve the project, and we approve those before we get a low bid.

292. 1:12:54

     And so we do an assessment to decide, can, is this a good project for design build or is it better for design bid build? And that's just how we decide at that point. And then, you know, of course for a public-private partnership, that's a whole different, um, analysis in deciding what would be the best method for public-private partnership contract. Oh, and also right of way acquisition can be a complexity that may lean one way or the other. Yeah. Uh, uh, one other point to make is, is how important the capacity is of our highway contractors.

293. 1:13:28

     Um, we have such a robust and, and, uh, strong industry here. They do rely on the ability for us to project and predict into the future their ability to staff up, get up equipment, procure materials. So the more predictable their fund source is over time, the more robust they can even become to satisfy all this demand for new, new facilities, new roads.

294. 1:13:54

     Thank you. I said it was the last, but our caucus chairman, Mr. Williamson.

295. 1:14:00

     Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, Director Miller, just remind us of House Bill 170, where we passed the, um, infrastructure funding formula a decade ago, whenever that was. Remind us about how much revenue that brings in each year.

296. 1:14:16

     It's, uh, it's about a billion dollars additional per year-

297. 1:14:20

     Yeah

298. 1:14:20

     ... over and above the initial.

299. 1:14:22

     And that, and that's been fairly consistent?

300. 1:14:24

     It has been. It's grown, uh, with, uh, CPI. Um, the-

301. 1:14:28

     But, but not with the cost of construction.

302. 1:14:30

     That's correct.

303. 1:14:30

     And that's the divergence in this.

304. 1:14:32

     Okay.

305. 1:14:32

     That's where we're having to do fewer projects and have, push them out further. Thank you. I just wanted to make sure the members understood that somehow, and I know that we've got a great Transportation Committee chairman that's gonna figure out how we're gonna have more robust funding in the future for these transportation infrastructure needs. Thank you, Director Miller.

306. 1:14:51

     Thank you.

307. 1:14:52

     You're very kind. You're very kind, Caucus Chairman. Yeah, we do talk about it a lot. Okay, committee, that's the end. That's this half. Ladies, thank y'all for being here-

308. 1:15:02

     Thank you

309. 1:15:02

     ... and answering questions.

310. 1:15:03

     Thank you.

311. 1:15:03

     Thank you.

312. 1:15:03

     We have more.

313. 1:15:04

     For us.

314. 1:15:04

     We'll get back with you for sure. Okay, so just shake our heads loose. Okay, we talked about all this. Now, this is the second part. You know, we've been, um ... You know, last month we talked about airports and the issues they're having, you know, with airspace. And, and what we have done is, um, you've got in your packet, and we sent you by email- A proposed bill that's looking at this. And, and I just, uh, I sent it to some of our members a few weeks ago or, or so also to kind of give them a heads up that are interested in the airport issues.

315. 1:15:42

     So I'm gonna ask, um, Ed Lindsey with his group. Ed worked on this bill, uh, with the general airport asso- Georgia Airport Association and, uh, his attorney, and we're gonna kind of go through this bill. You know, I've made some comments in my copy that I'll have questions on.

316. 1:16:03

     Sure.

317. 1:16:04

     You know, write yours on your document that you have because this right- is really a discussion to make sure we're going down the right pathway. Um, I do trust, uh, Ed Lindsey. He's been a good coworker of mine for many years. But a lot of eyes looking at this is what needs to look on it because a very extensive, but it's addressing a very important problem that are-- all of our airports are having. Both associations are looking at this to make sure we address their comments. So...

318. 1:16:34

     Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

319. 1:16:35

     Go ahead, please.

320. 1:16:36

     Um, okay.

321. 1:16:36

     Just make sure you identify yourself each time, please.

322. 1:16:37

     Yeah, I am. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. For the record, I'm Edward Lindsey. Uh, I'm with the law firm of Dentons, and also we represent the Georgia Airport Association. Georgia Airport Association, for those of you who don't know, represent about 75 air- airports in the state out of 104 airports, uh, public airports in the state. So about three-quarters of the airports in the state are, are part of the Georgia Airport Association, which includes both commercial and general aviation airports. Um, and we appreciate the, uh, time to be here.

323. 1:17:09

     If, uh, Andrew, if you can introduce yourself and...

324. 1:17:12

     Sure. I'm the-

325. 1:17:12

     Thanks, Andrew

326. 1:17:13

     ... uh, Andrew Richardson. I'm the airport manager up in Dalton, Georgia.

327. 1:17:17

     Uh, Jim Marquardt. I'm the airport manager at Perry Houston County Airport.

328. 1:17:20

     Yeah. They, they both, uh, r- run two of our very fine general aviation airports in the state. Uh, a couple of things that I think are really important to, for, for you, for the committee to understand from the very beginning is that what we're talking about here is not imposing any new, uh, regulations or requirements over and above what the FAA already requires, uh, air- our airports to, to, to, to be obliged to, to follow.

329. 1:17:52

     The problem in Georgia and, and three other states, 47 other states recognize the problem I'm about to address. The problem in Georgia is that the only, the, the, the, um, the only, uh, recourse that FAA has is at the very end. If someone violates the airspace, they then reduce the funding or require an airport to change its flight patterns or reduce its flight, uh, available, which quite frankly, uh, does two things. Uh, number one, it, it basically creates an unsafe condition for airports that are operating.

330. 1:18:29

     And also, quite frankly, from an economic standpoint, the money, uh, that the state and the local government and the feds, for that matter, appropriate to the airports are squandered. If we do not try to deal with the issue on the, on the front end, uh, before a development takes place, before a problem arises, as opposed to waiting for the back end when the feds simply come in and say, say, "Well, you violated our, our regulations and so therefore we're gonna cut off your funding, or we're gonna restrict what your airport can do." And for those of you who are so reliant in your areas on economic development, you understand the concerns.

331. 1:19:05

     Uh, Chairman Powell over here a moment ago talked about the importance of expanding the airports in his area so they can get, garner economic development in h- their area as opposed to it running off to Anderson and, and Greenville. The last thing that, that you want when you come to improve an airport in a particular area is to then turn around and have that airport's, uh, activities restricted because we didn't lay the groundwork beforehand to make sure that planes could properly land and take off. The bill you have in front of you, uh, we, like I said earlier, we, we looked at 47 states have recognized this issue and have come up with plans to deal with this issue on the front end as opposed to the back end.

332. 1:19:49

     Um, we, uh, retained a, we meaning the Georgia Airport Association, retained experts to take a look at all those 47 states to look at how things were done. Uh, we felt, but given Georgia's history, that it was best to push this issue, uh, for the local government to the extent possible to take care of the issue when it comes to mandating that they come up with rules and regulations and zoning requirements around their airports, rather than try to do it top-down, like for instance, I think California simply imposes rules from the top and tells the locals.

333. 1:20:23

     We're trying to get the locals to go, "Okay, here are the rules. Here are the regulations that you, that the FAA requires. You come up with the proper zoning to comply with what they require." That's essentially what this bill does. Uh, there are certain aspects of the bill that you have in front of you in terms of setting up the necessary structure, when it comes to setting up the necessary boards, when it comes to, uh, dealing with the local governments. And one of the challenges that exist, and one of the reasons w- that we need to set something up here in Georgia, is that many of these airports, and these two gentlemen and others can testify to this, we're dealing with multiple jurisdictions oftentimes.

334. 1:21:02

     Oftentimes you'll have an airport that is, uh, owned by one entity, but actually part of the land actually exists in another entity within the state, local government. We have some that, uh, in terms of the flight patterns, uh, take place in more than one area. So we're trying to create a local structure in place that can deal with, uh, the needs of that airport given the multiple jurisdictions that often surround it. And, um-

335. 1:21:29

     That's essentially what the bill does. We're happy to go into greater detail. I've got, uh, Andrew and, and Jim here who can sort of give you some real-life examples. The one thing that we would ask is that if we are to move forward, and we hope you will move forward with specific legislation this year, is to come up with something that, that provides a little bit more teeth than this bill. Uh, you know, we- we've circulated among our various members, and we are concerned that the only ramification for a local government to not comply is to cut off their aviation funding, ah, from the state.

336. 1:22:04

     That, ah, does two things. Um, number one, it, uh, it basically cuts your nose off to spite your face, and number two, quite frankly, when you come to multiple jurisdictions, there may be a jurisdiction that doesn't care whether or not they lose aviation funding because the airport is technically being funded by someone else. They may be deriving the economic benefit of that airport, but they're not helping to pay for it. And so, it- that really doesn't do anything in terms of teeth. Uh, Florida, for example, has a s- system set up that if the local governments do not create the necessary infrastructure similar to what we have here, there is a permit process that the folks have to go through, through the state.

337. 1:22:42

     We would look through, through their local, uh, department of transportation. And with that, I'm gonna turn it over to these two gentlemen who know a lot more about airport operations than I do. Um, well, we'd be happy to answer any questions about the legislation, but we, we had some concerns about the legislation, um, as far as just as Edward said. I think, um, one of the main things is we're setting up, um, consolidating the authority over these airspaces, uh, which is very necessary.

338. 1:23:16

     That's what we wanna do. We wanna consolidate control over the airspace. Um, one of the, one of the things that tends to be very concerning, uh, is that when, when you read this, it seems like, okay, we're gonna give all this authority to some board, and that board can basically choose to do whatever they want with that airspace from the ground as high as they wanna go. We wanna make sure that we're being clear on, uh, uh, what we're trying to control here.

339. 1:23:47

     So we- we've got some handouts here that we, we handed out that show a little bit better the 3D nature, uh, of the airspace control that we're trying to put into place. Um, if you look on the top right-hand side of that handout, you'll see the Part 77 approach surfaces, uh, that the FAA mandates. Um, the steepest is a 50:1 slope. That's an inner precision approach surface. Um, but generally, we're talking about a 40:1 slope, as you see on the diagram at, on the lower right-hand side of the page.

340. 1:24:23

     Um, so this slope is going to, is basically going to translate into about 300 feet above the surface, uh, at 12,000 feet from the end of the runway, if you see that. So, um, most of our airports in Georgia are, are in rural areas, um, that are not gonna be affected by this type of thing. Um, you get, you know, a mile from the end of the runway, and you're already to basically a, a, a 30-story building.

341. 1:24:57

     Um, so people are not gonna be really building those types of structures that near to a runway out in Baxley, Georgia, or, or somewhere like that. Um, so the biggest benefit's gonna be in your urban areas, um, and they are, they've already got zoning laws in place, and the majority of your urban areas already have zoning. So you're just adding another tier to your zoning laws, uh, that when a developer comes in and applies for a building permit, they're gonna also have to apply, uh, for the airport zoning area because they're in a certain, um, uh, diameter of an airport, which I think that the legislation really needs to set in place instead of leaving it, uh, sort of open-ended, um, because the way it's written, it sounds like the commission that's set up, they've got...

342. 1:25:52

     So the minimum is set on Part 77, but they can also go more stringent than that. So they could decide, "Hey, um, we're gonna go 15 miles from the runway, and we get to control all the airspace within 15 miles 'cause that's what the legislation says we can do." So I think there needs to be a cap also because, um, that could be, uh, very concerning when this bill gets dropped. Um, Florida, for example, has a 10-mile radius.

343. 1:26:22

     Um, so everything within 10 miles of an airport statewide, uh, there is a permit process that applies. Uh, so you have to apply. If you're gonna build within 10 miles of an airport, you gotta apply to the state. Now, to get exempted from that process, the local government can enact their own zoning laws or their own airspace regulations, and then the state permit process is exempted. Um, and it all is just on the, on the local government at that point.

344. 1:26:54

     Um, so instead of, uh, penalizing them for not doing it, they're giving them an incentive that says, "Hey, if you don't wanna do it, that's fine. You just have to, y- everything within 10 miles of your airport, those developers have to apply to the state, but you can enact your own if you wanna have more control." And so that's the benefit of enacting your own laws is that you can control the airspace, uh, the way you wanna control it more locally. And the benefit of that is, is that sometimes you have an airport that has specific needs that the locals know of.

345. 1:27:29

     Um, they may not want to be as restrictive, um, because they just don't need it at that airport, um, depending on the terrain around the airport, the use of the airport, that type of thing. Um, I think Your urban airports are gonna be, it's a lot more necessary to be closer to your Part 77 approaches. Um, in rural areas, a lot of those are non-precision runways, um, and you may only need basically state criteria, which is a 20 to one slope, which is far less restrictive.

346. 1:28:04

     Um, the 20 to one, 20 to one slope, when you get out, uh, 10,000 feet, you're talking about, you know, 50, uh, 500 feet in the air at that point. Uh, so you're just not gonna have, you're really not restricting anything. Um, the other consideration is that the state already regulates, um, pri- uh, private property rights when it comes to public safety. You're talking about, um, public roads. You've got the right of ways along those roads that you have to take care of.

347. 1:28:37

     Um, this is basically a public road, uh, in the sky. Uh, you got, uh, public aircraft are using this road, and they have to have a safe corridor to fly through to land at that public airport. Um, so it's really no different than keeping a road right of way clear. Um, a lot of people have this misconception of, oh, well, you know, why should I have to give up my rights to keep, of, of these private airports, you know, flying? But it's a public use airport.

348. 1:29:07

     It's publicly f- publicly funded. You and I can go fly on it today. Um, and, and that is one of the benefits, uh, that America enjoys is having, uh, public use, um, aviation airports all, all over the place, which many, many countries don't have that. Um, I don't wanna-

349. 1:29:27

     Jim-

350. 1:29:27

     ... take up all the time here, but-

351. 1:29:29

     I, I, I, I want Jim to sort of talk real briefly because he deals with multiple jurisdictions, and why, why we need legislation like this that will basically require those multiple jurisdictions to come together to all take care of the airports.

352. 1:29:42

     So my major concern is, um, actually with line 153 there, paragraph B and paragraph C. So Perry Houston County sits, uh, airport sits within the city limits of, of the city of Perry, and, uh, with it, half of the airport sits in Houston County. Those two entities derive, uh, revenue from that airport. Peach County, uh, is where the other half of my airport sits, and they derive no funding from the airport whatsoever.

353. 1:30:13

     So my concern is here, number one, if Peach County decides they just don't care about the airport 'cause they're not getting any funding from the airport, and they don't wanna enact anything on their legislation, um, to help the airport, the only recourse here is that the airport's gonna lose funding. Uh, and how does that help me? Um, the other thing is, is, is, uh, we are an airport authority, but what if I had a situation where the county or the city does not wanna act, uh, any legislation?

354. 1:30:49

     What's the recourse of the authority? We can't enact legislation to, uh, for zoning. So I've gotta have something that I could fall back on that says, "Okay, if you don't act, then the state's requirements automatically kick in," and that the state would handle it unless you enact something at your local level. Um, otherwise, uh, it's, it's, I, I have no recourse.

355. 1:31:20

     So I've gotta have a situation where there is that, that level above the county or above the city that if they don't enact anything, that the state has a, a critire- criteria that is established, and it takes over, and we can utilize that to say you can't build here, or you can't put a tower up here because it's gonna interfere with the airspace. Um, and I literally yesterday, just yesterday, took a call from the FAA.

356. 1:31:50

     We've got these trees that are on private property that are too tall, and they are getting ready to raise my minimums, uh, which is the height with which you can descend down to to get to the airport in bad weather. Uh, unless I can get to those trees, or I have some recourse that allows me to go to a landowner and say, "We got some trees that have gotta come down, or they've gotta be topped. They've at least gotta be brought down to a certain height level." And without that legislation, I, I'm dead in the water in trying to, um, maintain my airspace around my airport.

357. 1:32:28

     Mr. Jim, just to finish up real quickly, as I look around, uh, the members, um, most of you guys are, and ladies, are in areas in which your local airport is vital to your economic development of your communities. And like I said, this is a investment that the local communities are putting in. There's an investment the state is putting in. There's investment that the feds are putting in. And, and we've got to protect these, these gen, particularly these general aviation airports that desperately need the help that this bill will offer, and we could ask for y- for your help, uh, in, in putting it together.

358. 1:33:06

     And I would also be remiss, I wanna say real briefly, thank you to the, to the committee, uh, members who voted today for the bill, uh, for the appropriations bill. Uh, it adds an additional $15 million, uh, t- for airports, uh, in the state in the supplemental, as well as the seven and a half million dollars that was previously mentioned, uh, in the previous thing. Uh, we are moving steadily toward a number that is necessary in order to maintain our airports, but I think that it would be remiss if we didn't say thank you.

359. 1:33:37

     Thank you, Ed. So what we're gonna do, I've got y- I've got six or eight lights blinking, but I would, you know, for the essence of time, Vernon Y'all wanna go to the, over there and let Ms. Hope... I want-- She would like to hear your comments.

360. 1:33:52

     Yeah.

361. 1:33:53

     Hope.

362. 1:33:54

     And when the questions get answered, y'all can probably help answer.

363. 1:33:57

     Yeah, we can all answer.

364. 1:33:58

     Sure.

365. 1:33:58

     We can all kind of answer them together in a minute.

366. 1:34:00

     Yes.

367. 1:34:00

     But I'd want to hear her comments from-

368. 1:34:03

     Yeah

369. 1:34:04

     ... um, her joint, uh, other association.

370. 1:34:10

     Mr. Chairman, thank you. And, uh, as you said, for time, um, I'm gonna let Hope, Hope McAluso spoke to this committee a few, few months ago about this issue. She runs the third busiest airport in the state, and, uh, it's a general aviation airport and represent the general aviation. And, uh, couple things real quick that I want to say before I get out of the way and let you guys talk to somebody who knows about any of these topics, is that, uh, first of all, thanks for the additional funding yesterday that you all voted on, appropriation members, for the airports.

371. 1:34:42

     Thank you for the increase. And, uh, while I've got DOT folks here, thank them publicly because, man, they, I lean on them so much and gather so much information from them. So thank y'all. And, uh, so at this time, if you don't mind, Mr. Chairman, because y'all don't want to hear me. You want to hear this lady that knows about it. It's, uh, Hope McAluso with Peachtree City/Falkenfield Airport.

372. 1:35:06

     Thank you.

373. 1:35:07

     Hi. Um, so I'm, I'm with Falkenfield, but I'm also with the, the General Aviation Association and the state, uh, Association of Georgia General Aviation Airports. Um, just a few comments to add to what, what was already said. Um, when you come to the rural airports, no, you're not going to have a high rise up, but cell towers are a big problem. So that's something that the rural airports battle on a regular basis, is to keep those down and, and away from those, those smaller airports. Um, because it being rural, u- usually there is a lot of cell phone, uh, gaps in those area.

374. 1:35:41

     Uh, and, and also what, uh, Jim mentioned and, uh, Perry Houston, we have the same issue. You know, we're an airport authority, and so we don't have zoning power. So to, you know, say you're going to take funding away and, because you haven't protected your zoning, we have no power to enact our own zoning because we're a local authority, not a municipality. Now, my city does have the zoning ordinance in place, um, but that's just because we've educated those folks, and they've got enough sense to do it.

375. 1:36:12

     Um, so yeah, neighboring jurisdictions is a problem. Um, I'm right on the, the border of a neighboring county, uh, with lots of acres that are just probably glaring ready for houses to go in any day now. And, um, and my county that my airport sits in has no say over that neighboring jurisdiction. I know Cobb County has the same problem as well with some of the issues they have up there. So neigh- neighboring, uh, jurisdictions is a problem. Um, so you can't really just rely on one city, one county to protect that one airport, because the neighboring county may see you as, uh, competition, essentially.

376. 1:36:51

     I mean, we don't see it that way. We as airport managers, we're all in the system together. Uh, but your local powers that be may not always see it that way. Um,

377. 1:37:05

     right of way, keeping right of ways clear, like, like has been said already, it, it's no different than keeping your roads, right of ways clear. Airports, it's the same thing, so it shouldn't be looked at any differently. Because the amount of funding that the State of Georgia has put into these airports, the state put funding into these airports, and the state needs to protect what they have invested in. And so that's what we're asking from help, um, at a state level to help protect your own investment, not just the local investment, but the State of Georgia.

378. 1:37:35

     Uh, with the millions of dollars that go into these airports every year, that, that's just, you know, part of it, is, is helping protect what's already been spent on these airports. The FAA does have a model zoning ordinance in place. Um, hopefully these local folks have adopted them. But as I stated, there's no teeth to the model-- uh, the, the zoning ordinance that the, or, or the, what the FAA has in place. It just says you are to keep these areas clear however you see fit.

379. 1:38:06

     And so they, they leave it up to the local folks to, to be responsible for that. So because of the multi-jurisdiction issues and because of, um, you know, some of the rural areas just not really having that kind of support, we think the state, by protecting your own investment, it, it would behoove you all to help, uh, the airports by protecting this airspace.

380. 1:38:31

     Thank you. You're very wise, and I, I always appreciate your counsel in all this. Okay, so what-- if y'all just keep your spots, and we'll just kind of go around. Yeah, I've got questions, but I think maybe the members will have, hit them too. Representative Jenkins, we'll start with you, good, a good pilot.

381. 1:38:48

     Yes, sir. Well, I do appreciate us discussing this. This is very important legislation. Since retiring from the Army about 50 years ago, I've made my living on Georgia's general aviation airports. The first job I had was with the Forestry Commission fighting wildfires. And, uh, exponentially, you can-- Basically, the amount of water you can get on a wildfire has increased exponentially due to the availabil- availability of an airport and it having jet fuel on it. Um, currently, I know the Forestry Commission, they have single engine air tankers, which are even more reliant on airport infrastructure to be effective firefighting, uh, capability.

382. 1:39:26

     Currently flying air ambulance, and we rely heavily on the airport infrastructure. And, uh- George is growing. The airport infrastructure also has to grow, just like our road network grows. And I'll tell you right now, you know, there are some missions that we get asked to do all the time that we don't have the airport infrastructure in Georgia to support. Uh, for instance, you know, Columbus to Augusta with high-flow oxygen. You know, the only night refuel option is Macon, and they don't have 24-hour refuel. So we can't do that mission. Uh, s- Atlanta to Savannah, very difficult for a helicopter, 'cause, uh, no monitored fueling.

383. 1:40:01

     Um, and you don't wanna be in the middle of the night with a critically ill patient trying to use your card in a place that it won't work. So obviously, this stuff can't be stood up for us, but ultimately, the network's gotta grow. The traffic's gotta grow. The traffic has to be supported. Um, the airports that we're trying to build with this sort of legislation are not the airports of our grandfathers. You know, we think of a 172 up flying around, watching the sun go down, which is a beautiful thing, but you can do that out of, out of your pasture. Uh, these protections are necessary to truly make our airport system into a transportation, uh, infrastructure.

384. 1:40:38

     Um, and it's hard for people to think about that. We focus on the economic development, which is very important. But when we talk about traffic on 75, and we talk about using eminent dom- domain to take a lane, we say take three lanes, you know? But when it comes to an airport, there's, that, that's not that easy. We, we really, uh, I think we need to think about this stuff differently. Not that... I mean, of course, we do wanna respect property rights, and I, I do feel like this bill does. Um, I have three, uh, airports in my, uh, district, um, one of which is, is in, you know, a small airport.

385. 1:41:12

     We just got a weather station, and hopefully wi- a, a instrument approach will come. And when that comes, uh, our clearance requirements will change. That happened in Coweta County. And, um, and they've, they've had to deal with that, and the local government's been very happy to deal with that, 'cause ultimately, it's made their airport far more capable. But I recall, again, in, in Meriwether County, very small county, small airport. But, you know, I got a call from a commissioner who used to be a pilot, and he knew I was a pilot, and he had to ask me about something they wanted to build around an airport and s- get, get my take on it, which is fine.

386. 1:41:48

     But that ain't really how this ought to happen. And, um, this legislation creates such a better structure to thoughtfully manage our airports and do a lot of the, uh, the things that, that are happening anyway, just with more intention and, and, and a, and a better process. I guess what I'd like to see, if y'all have any examples or anything, I would suspect that if they violate the airport space that causes minimums to be raised, capabilities to be reduced, funding to be cut, I would bet in Georgia that's unintentional.

387. 1:42:24

     'Cause I don't know of any of our airp- You know, I know in, in other places in the country we hear stories of cities that wish airports weren't there, but I don't hear those. I, I want... A- all I hear is we, we want our airports, we want capable airports, and we wanna do all they can to support them. Uh, uh, are y'all aware of any, any, uh, instances where, where we've had to back into these issues just because they just weren't managed well to start with?

388. 1:42:48

     Was it, uh, c- uh, city and counties-

389. 1:42:50

     Yeah

390. 1:42:50

     ... disputing? Uh, Matt.

391. 1:42:52

     Matt.

392. 1:42:54

     Gwinnett County. Now, uh, yeah, Hope, you gotta stay up there, too. You're not going.

393. 1:43:00

     Matt Smith. I'm the airport director in Gwinnett County. I've been there about 25 years in managing airports, about 30 now. Uh, one-third of my runway is in the city of Lawrenceville limits. The other two-thirds is county. It's a county-owned airport. The county and city don't play well together sometimes. Um, and recently, the, there's a building about 1,000 feet off the end of my runway. The city, uh, rezoned it to raise it f- 20 feet up into the air, um, without talking to the county or asking our opinion whatsoever.

394. 1:43:33

     Um, they do benefit from the airport, but again, they don't get any money or anything from the airport. They don't support it. Um, so they don't really look at it as an asset. The, the city's growing quite a bit, and they kinda look at it as a hindrance. Um, they wanted to raise the hospital. They, they built multi-stories on our hospital. They had to stop at 13 floors, because otherwise, it, it impinged on my i- instrument approach. Um, so they look at that as a disadvantage, 'cause they really wanted 15 stories to the hospital, 'cause they wanted the extra beds. So a lot of times, y- you know, they do get the benefit of the airport but don't see it that way.

395. 1:44:06

     They, they see it as, um, we're hindering their growth, because they wanna get bigger and better. And all they hear is, "You can't put that there because it's on the approach," or, "You can't do this because it'll cause noise complaints," or whatever. Um, so yeah, it, it does happen. Uh, another one that, that you may not be aware of, but they're, the old manager's back there. Uh, Peachtree DeKalb, they have a very vehement, uh, anti-airport group there. Uh, so the metro Atlanta areas, um, when, when you get more growth, then you start to see the, the people that do want the airports closed down, the mu- the municipalities, the cities that do want them closed down because they don't like them anymore.

396. 1:44:44

     Right. Thank you. That's all I have. Appreciate it.

397. 1:44:48

     We would like for you to, to, to help carry the bill.

398. 1:44:51

     All right.

399. 1:44:56

     You got it. Okay. Next was, um, Representative Vance Smith.

400. 1:45:02

     Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Appreciate it. Um, I'm gon- I'll, I'll ask Hope, and then y'all can chime in, too, uh, 'cause I used to serve with Ed. Um, so right now, the only thing in place, not talking about any state legislation, is just local zoning ordinances by the cities and counties where the airport is located. Is that kinda all we have?

401. 1:45:24

     That is. That's all that we have to protect our, ourselves. The FAA lays out what is to be protected, but they do not protect it. It is completely left up to the local municipalities to do that.

402. 1:45:36

     And those, those local, uh, those local, um, mus- m- mus- cities and counties- It's getting late in the day, y'all. Um-

403. 1:45:47

     I guess the ones that are in place and have the zoning, do they abide by what FAA is telling them, or do they vary from that?

404. 1:45:54

     It varies locally. Um, some will-

405. 1:45:57

     Yeah

406. 1:45:58

     ... put in the, the-

407. 1:45:59

     Yeah

408. 1:45:59

     ... the FAA zoning model ordinance. Um, but you can certainly... There's always a variance, too. So even if the ordinance is in place, sometimes variances are issued that, that violates that airspace, and again, causes the same problem even, even if there's an ordinance in place.

409. 1:46:17

     Jim?

410. 1:46:17

     And I, I would just add, in my situation, um, if you go south on my runway, you're going into Houston County, you're going into the city of Perry. They're very, very much in favor of the airport, and they're, anything that gets built anywheres near it, uh, zoning is right there to make certain that it, it does not infringe upon the airspace. You go north, you go into Peach County, it's all open farmland. And I'm telling you, if Verizon moved into a farmer and said, "We'll pay you $3,000 to put a tower up here," there's no way to stop that.

411. 1:46:55

     But according, I mean, just reading through this information and this proposed legislation, they would have somebody on this board, or authority as you would call it, so they would have a vote, too, and is it gonna be a tie vote and who breaks the tie? Or is it gonna be in the county that's got the most runway in the coun- I mean, there are a lot of i- issues right there. They could still bring up the issue and not vote along with Houston County. So-

412. 1:47:23

     Well, I, I think with the legislation, though, that it takes into consideration that it's got the regulations from the FAA. Says, "This is where you cannot build." And so yes, they would have a seat on that. But again, it would be the commission looking and saying, "Yes, that interferes with the space." It would be, uh, they'd have the 7460 from the FAA confirming that that interferes with the airspace, and therefore they would, would be obliged to deny it.

413. 1:47:56

     You know, there, there's been a lot of good discussion, a lot of good questions on transportation, airports, that's all transportation, too. I, I hope, Mr. Chairman, we can continue. I know this meeting's long. I apologize. I have to go run another meeting. But I'd love to continue this conversation and make sure all parties are in agreement before we make a big decision. So.

414. 1:48:18

     And, and I'll just make one other quick comment. And, you know, when we take federal funding, uh, all the airports every single year have to sign the FAA's grant assurances, and there's 24 of them that says, "We'll abide by all of these." One of those grant assurances says, "We will keep our air spares clear," but we don't have any way to firmly do that.

415. 1:48:41

     All right. I don't fly, so, except in a GMC, so I'm gonna have to-

416. 1:48:46

     Okay

417. 1:48:46

     ... ease on.

418. 1:48:47

     Thank you.

419. 1:48:48

     Thank y'all very much, ev- both of you.

420. 1:48:51

     Yeah.

421. 1:48:51

     Yep. Someone asked me, "Is this a hearing only?" Yes, it is, because the bill has not been entered in at this moment.

422. 1:48:59

     Yeah.

423. 1:48:59

     That's why we're, that's why we're here right now ferreting some of this stuff out. Who's next? Representative Persinger.

424. 1:49:09

     Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for your testimony. Um, you had alluded to or, um, mentioned, so if we did adopt this bill and, and enforced an airport affected area over all the airports in the state, we would basically be applying a right of way to all the airports. Is that a fair statement?

425. 1:49:30

     Yeah.

426. 1:49:30

     Yeah.

427. 1:49:30

     So by that testimony-

428. 1:49:33

     Which is in, in keeping with FAA-

429. 1:49:35

     Sure

430. 1:49:35

     ... requirement to have that run.

431. 1:49:37

     So part of your handout says that, um, this does not take any private property, but through your testimony and, and ali- and aliking it to a right of way, if DOT needs more right of way, they're required to fairly compensate that landowner. So help me figure out how we're going to protect property rights at the same time we're protecting, um, life safety, health, welfare with the airport and private property owners. How can we make sure that if there is a taking, which if we impose this, there would be a taking of something, even though not fully taking that piece of property, but encumbering that piece of property, just like the airport's claiming to be encumbered, how do we, or how will we balance that, or how will we compensate the landowner?

432. 1:50:23

     Well, I, I th- I think you're, I think you're right. There is not a taking of physical land. There is a restriction. We're not taking from them, but we are restricting what they can do with that land in terms of height and above. So-

433. 1:50:39

     That they're, that they're-

434. 1:50:40

     And, and again, if you-

435. 1:50:40

     ... currently not restricted to. So it, it, it is a-

436. 1:50:43

     Well, they, they are

437. 1:50:43

     ... it is a taking of the value of the property. It is devaluing the property. Not completely.

438. 1:50:48

     I can, uh, answer that as well if you don't-

439. 1:50:49

     But it's, it's-

440. 1:50:50

     Please

441. 1:50:50

     ... it's taking of... And, and I think one of y'all last time did a, um, in your presentation, talked about the trees that were penetrating that, that plane, that they were a pecan orchard.

442. 1:51:00

     Yes.

443. 1:51:01

     So if, if we were removing pecan trees from that area, that is a family farm that has been making money and is going to lose generational funds in the future from taking those trees from that family. So, uh, there is a taking here. I just wanna know how, how we, how are we gonna balance that?

444. 1:51:19

     In that particular case, that family was compensated for future harvests of that pecan tree. So, um, the FAA does have a system in place, and we are legally required to go through that system, uh, before we can, uh, take land or encumber it in any way. Uh, so we also have condemnation rights if it did come to that. However, um, there is an FAA system in place that will fund, uh, easement acquisition, land acquisition, that kind of thing.

445. 1:51:51

     So no, there is a system in place to, to fund those property owners. for any, um, uh, problems they have by, or loss of use of the property. There's a system in place.

446. 1:52:02

     And, and I'm going to, uh, Miss, uh, Re- Representative, that the better analogy is probably closer to the zoning situation. You, you own property-

447. 1:52:12

     Right

448. 1:52:12

     ... uh, but you can't put a petroleum plant just any place you want. If you, if you're zoned residential, you, you gotta you gotta deal with resident-

449. 1:52:21

     Sure, you gotta-

450. 1:52:21

     You gotta keep it residential there. If you're zoned commercial, you can do more. But if you only ... But, but, but this is sort of similar to, to those sort of zoning issues where if you are within a particular area, uh, you know, you're gonna be zoned to, to be able to do certain things. And it's ... I, I think that that's probably a better analogy.

451. 1:52:39

     Sure.

452. 1:52:40

     Um, just one follow-up?

453. 1:52:41

     Yes, sir. Please.

454. 1:52:42

     So in reading through, and I haven't done a deep dive, but just basically understanding part 77, I think the terminology in that is, um, there needs to be notice within 45 days of work starting on a project. And if, if we're going to do anything, I think we need to impose a more forward-thinking timeline of 45, 60 days prior to submittal of any permit to work through this instead of waiting. 'Cause 45 days before work's starting, that permit process is started potentially a year ago-

455. 1:53:15

     Could you, could you give-

456. 1:53:15

     ... from most of the projects I'm working on.

457. 1:53:16

     Could you give me the line?

458. 1:53:18

     Um, no. I was just looking in part 77 of the, of-

459. 1:53:20

     Oh, in part 77. That's fine

460. 1:53:21

     ... of the fed. Yeah. So it, it's, it says before work starts.

461. 1:53:24

     And that pertains mainly to the amount of time the FAA takes to, to study that obstruction.

462. 1:53:29

     Sure, and that's not near enough time in that, uh, in that, that case. Most of the projects we're seeing, that we're probably talking about, are gonna be in that municipality for, especially if it requires rezoning, for a year to two years prior to.

463. 1:53:43

     Yeah.

464. 1:53:43

     So we probably need to think about just similar to an annexation request where a city is required to notify the county within 30 days of an application. We probably need to do the same in this bill to the airport.

465. 1:53:59

     Hear, hear.

466. 1:54:02

     One thing I might, uh, say to your point is, is, uh, a lot of these bills have a grandfather clause as, as well, so that when the bill's enacted, uh, anything that is there will be grandfathered in, and then it's more for, you know, the future so that we can take care of things that are gonna happen down the road. So when a property owner, uh, a new property owner, say, purchases land near an airport, they're gonna be aware, hey, this is in an airport zone on the front end. So if I'm gonna buy this property, I know I can't build a, a, you know, 30-story building on it.

467. 1:54:35

     Um, I can't put a cell tower on it, and that's gonna influence my decision on the front end of whether I purchase this or not. And the grandfather clause is, it's not in this current legislation right now.

468. 1:54:45

     Yeah. One more. You're all set. You're all set, Matt.

469. 1:54:49

     One more follow-up.

470. 1:54:50

     Yes, sir.

471. 1:54:50

     Um, if we are gonna move a bill like this forward, to that end I think we also need to work in somehow that all of our municipalities, cities, counties have to do, um, plans submitted to their local, um, regional associations or g- with their planning. If you got a airport and, and this is enacted, this has to be part of that information so that it is incorporated into their zoning documents, so that if somebody is looking at a piece of property and they request a letter from the county for a zoning, um, confirmation, that would show up.

472. 1:55:30

     Sure.

473. 1:55:32

     Yes. We're very helpful. Thank you.

474. 1:55:34

     Thank you.

475. 1:55:34

     That's great.

476. 1:55:38

     Okay. Who was next there? Representative Campbell.

477. 1:55:42

     Thank you, Mr., thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank y'all for coming. Well, I've got a, a ... and, and I think, I think I read this throughout all y'all's, uh, you know, what you had to say. But I guess what I just ... My question is, do y'all consider this bill as good f- or rural, uh, airports as the city airports?

478. 1:56:03

     Absolutely.

479. 1:56:03

     In many respects-

480. 1:56:04

     Okay

481. 1:56:04

     ... it's probably more important for the rural than it is for the city.

482. 1:56:07

     Okay. All right. Thank you.

483. 1:56:10

     Absolutely. 100% agree.

484. 1:56:15

     Thank you.

485. 1:56:17

     Chair Lady Taylor. Thank you.

486. 1:56:18

     Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, my approach is a little different to this. We had an issue a year or so ago with a military base. There was an airbase close by, and they were dictating what our small airport could do. How are they gonna be affected by this type of an arrangement?

487. 1:56:37

     Who ha- who has the biggest foot?

488. 1:56:40

     If you're talking about a MOA, that's at the federal level.

489. 1:56:44

     Yeah.

490. 1:56:44

     And there's, there's nothing we can do about that. If the f- if, if they put a military operations area in place at the federal level, this will not affect that.

491. 1:56:52

     Okay.

492. 1:56:53

     We, we, yeah. We're, we're, we're-

493. 1:56:54

     That would overrule.

494. 1:56:55

     Thank you

495. 1:56:55

     ... we're, we're at their mercy.

496. 1:56:57

     Yeah.

497. 1:56:57

     Thank you.

498. 1:56:59

     Very good. Thank you, ma'am.

499. 1:56:59

     And we rely upon you guys to help us push back on them, but, but ... And many of y'all helped push back on them the last time.

500. 1:57:10

     Let's go back to, uh, Representative Jenkins.

501. 1:57:15

     Just a quick clarification again how this is gonna come to be. If we were to, to pass this out in, in this form or something very similar to this, it's not gonna create one of these areas on any airport in the state. It's gonna give the local government the ability to do that. And so this is, this is not ... W- we are not creating these in this legislature. We are, we are, we are facilitating local governments to do it themselves if they choose to.

502. 1:57:46

     Yes. But one of the con- one of the concerns I, one of the concerns I have is if we don't have something in here, um, at the state level, then if they don't do it at the local level, what's the recourse?

503. 1:58:01

     Okay. Yeah.

504. 1:58:04

     Yeah, I mean, that is actually the problem now, is that if you rely on, on the, the local folks to put this in place, and they may have higher priorities, and it may not happen. But if the state requires them to put it in place, then you're protecting your state airports.

505. 1:58:22

     And, and I, I would, you know, I hate, I hate to... I mean, I, I agree we should protect our airports, but I do think the local control of this, of this, it would probably be a very big help to get it done, you know? But, uh-

506. 1:58:37

     Well, that, well, that, that's what we've tried to do here in terms of giving them the flexibility. We're requiring that they do it, but giving them the c- the flexibility to determine what is, what, what, what will be necessary to protect their airport.

507. 1:58:52

     Correct.

508. 1:58:52

     We've, we've tried to give them that kind of discretion.

509. 1:58:55

     That's all I-

510. 1:58:56

     I think we prefer it at the local level. We just wanna make sure that if it doesn't get done at the local level, there is some recourse.

511. 1:59:05

     And just taking state funding away does not really change anything from what there currently is. 'Cause if we don't do it, we already lose federal funding, and that's not working. There's no teeth with that. So basically, if we do the same thing at the state level, it still doesn't change, uh, then the airport's just getting hurt by losing, losing the funding. Um, there's also no timeline in this legislation that says, uh, when, h- how long does it take you to enact these airport affected areas?

512. 1:59:37

     Um, it says in here if the, uh, if the multiple municipalities don't come together and create their own board, then the owning authority can come up with their own, uh, airport affected area, correct? So, uh, but it doesn't say how long that process is gonna take. So at what point does the owning authority say, "Okay, you guys haven't done it, so we get to do it"? Well, they could just forever say, "Well, we're working on it," but they never actually do it.

513. 2:00:09

     Um, so when does it hand off? I think that has to be stipulated as well. Um, because if it does eventually hand off at some point to the entity that owns the airport, the entity that owns the airport will likely get it done. Yeah.

514. 2:00:26

     Okay. Representative Cheokas, get you there. Thanks.

515. 2:00:31

     Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, thank y'all for the testimony. This is, um, a great subject, and very much appreciate all your advocacy for our air- airports. I just had a few questions. Um, what I, what I heard, um, uh, my colleague just say, uh, and I think, uh, what I heard him say was that this is, we left, uh, left to local control. Is that accurate? Th- they would-

516. 2:00:51

     That's my understanding.

517. 2:00:52

     Yeah, yeah.

518. 2:00:54

     That's my understanding.

519. 2:00:54

     And is that your understanding of this, um, legislation, that locals would have superior control to-

520. 2:01:00

     Yes

521. 2:01:00

     ... this authority?

522. 2:01:01

     The, the whole idea is for them, for it to be done on the local level.

523. 2:01:04

     So within-

524. 2:01:05

     Within certain framework. They have to abide by what the FAA is requiring. But yes, in terms of the details.

525. 2:01:12

     Very good. In, in line 57, will you run, run through this with me on how that, how that's gonna work, uh, this section B here? "If in the judgment of the governing body," my assumption that'd be an airport authority, um, that owns the, or controls the airport, um, "the county municipality, um, or other political subdivision with the airport affected area within its territorial limits has failed to adopt enforced reasonable adequate airport affected areas." So the way I read that is the airport authority has judged that the county or the city has not made adequate, um, um, ordinances that protects the affected area, then the airport authority, by its judgment, can then, um...

526. 2:01:59

     Let's see what it says. "This code section governing board shall be auth- shall, shall be authorized to adopt, administer, and enforce airport affected area regulations." So that seems to me to be counter to this idea that there's gonna be local control, because the airport authority would now be making or dictating, um, what is happening, uh, in the affected area over the governing authorities that have the proper- the airport in their, um, territory, municipality, whatever. Is that accurate, Representative Cheokas?

527. 2:02:29

     Well, keep in mind, most, most airports, uh, y- some are authorities, but most airports are actually owned directly by counties or cities. Some, some are, some are owned by authorities.

528. 2:02:38

     I think we're the-

529. 2:02:39

     Yeah

530. 2:02:40

     ... rare exceptions to that.

531. 2:02:42

     Sure.

532. 2:02:42

     And then we have no regulatory power.

533. 2:02:44

     Right. And that, and that was my point. Uh, and specifically, uh, with our airport being an authority, if the city and county doesn't, what is my recourse? Because no, I can't adopt those regulations, and I can't become zoning, and I can't enforce that. I don't have that.

534. 2:03:02

     So that is a problem with the language.

535. 2:03:03

     Yeah. So, so, so, so you, the issue that you, you have is that the, you're, you're an airport authority, and the county and the city around you has failed to act on, on your behalf for these, um, affected areas. Is that what I'm hearing? If they fail to act, what is my recourse? Yes. Under this piece of legislation- Under this, under this auspices here, as it is written, I don't have that recourse to go to the state and say, "The county and the city have not done its, uh, job to enforce the, uh, uh, FAA's regulations around my airport.

536. 2:03:43

     Where do I go as an authority? Because I don't have the authority for zoning." Is that what-

537. 2:03:49

     That, that pretty well sums it up

538. 2:03:50

     That's current law. Current law.

539. 2:03:51

     That's current law. Yeah. But under this-

540. 2:03:53

     Well, and that, no, that it, it's un- under... the same language here does not address that.

541. 2:03:57

     Yeah. Well, yeah.

542. 2:03:57

     Yeah.

543. 2:03:57

     That, that's something that, that, that, that we've been talking about earlier. Um- ... representative that, that we wanna have toughen up within the language, and we have some language to offer.

544. 2:04:08

     So, so hold on a minute. Wait a minute. I'm getting confused. I'm, I'm a South Georgia guy. You guys gotta talk slow for me. Um, uh, what it says here in B, to me, says the airport authority, regardless of what the city or county wants, or the political subdivision, um, they can make the determination. In fact, in 62, it says, the code section, "Such governing body shall be authorized to adopt, administer, and enforce airport affected area regulations for such area even if the mus- municipality or the county do not."

545. 2:04:38

     And that's, and that's what it is saying, but I don't believe that Georgia law will allow me as an authority to do that.

546. 2:04:46

     But, but it's m- I, I'm with you. I think this is repealing, uh, other laws in conflict. So to me, this is saying, uh, it's giving the authority the authority to, to take it from there. Uh-

547. 2:05:03

     Yeah, it's giving the authority to override the locals.

548. 2:05:05

     Correct. Yeah.

549. 2:05:06

     That's, that's the point I was... That, we're talking the same thing.

550. 2:05:08

     Yeah.

551. 2:05:08

     Yeah.

552. 2:05:09

     Yeah.

553. 2:05:09

     So this legislation is giving the authority the ability to override the local governing authority, is what you're saying.

554. 2:05:16

     Right.

555. 2:05:16

     Okay.

556. 2:05:17

     That, that's what I'm, that's my understanding as well.

557. 2:05:18

     What it doesn't spell out is what the recourse would be. I mean, as the local authority, what, what recourse do we have?

558. 2:05:26

     Will, I've got just a question for you. So looking here on the definitions on line 33 where it d- describes the governing authority.

559. 2:05:34

     Yeah.

560. 2:05:34

     You know, it sets it apart. You have... Bruce says who they are.

561. 2:05:38

     Right.

562. 2:05:38

     'Cause that is the locals. I mean, it is the-

563. 2:05:41

     Well, it-

564. 2:05:41

     The laws and the-

565. 2:05:42

     ... owns or controls is the airport authority.

566. 2:05:45

     Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

567. 2:05:47

     For the city or the county. Who- whatever that body is that owns and controls the airport for the mo- Like, for example, my airport is owned by the city. Um-

568. 2:05:57

     So the city could then, being the governing authority, could override the county's zoning if they, if they don't-

569. 2:06:04

     If the county didn't take action, yes.

570. 2:06:06

     Okay.

571. 2:06:06

     So my airport has a airport affected area that is in multiple counties. I've got Murray County, Whitfield County, and, uh, the city of Dalton. So, uh, if this were enacted just like this, uh, Murray County and Whitfield County and the city would have to come together, create a board, and then make the decision to how big that airport affected area was gonna be. Um, if they did not do that, then the city of Dalton could, could then say, "Uh, okay, we're gonna make the airport affected area ourselves." And to my point a few minutes ago, there's no timeline for that as well.

572. 2:06:44

     How long does the county have to make that decision to do it before the city says, "Okay, you haven't done it. It's time for us to step in"? That's not stipulated either.

573. 2:06:54

     Very good. Um, I got another question here. Um, on 64 it says, "If, if a conflict arises between regulation adopted by the governing body," which is the one, could be a airport authority, is that right?

574. 2:07:07

     Could be.

575. 2:07:08

     Um, "that owns or controls an airport and a joint board, the regulation adopted by such governing body shall control." Tell me what that says to you.

576. 2:07:17

     Well-

577. 2:07:19

     Now, give me a, give me a fact pattern. I'm trying to I'm trying to see how it's gonna work.

578. 2:07:22

     When I read that, I said, I, I even made a note next to it that said, "This is not clear." It, it's, it's, uh, that needs to be clarified what they're actually trying to say there.

579. 2:07:33

     Perfect.

580. 2:07:34

     Um, in my opinion.

581. 2:07:36

     What, in your opinion, should, should it say?

582. 2:07:38

     Um-

583. 2:07:38

     Do you have any ideas?

584. 2:07:39

     Well, I didn't-

585. 2:07:41

     64.

586. 2:07:42

     64.

587. 2:07:43

     To me, it says that if there is a governing body of, uh, made up of two counties and a city, um, and it's in conflict with a city regulation, the governing body made up of those three entities would, would ul- ultimately, um, rule.

588. 2:08:04

     That's kind of what I figured. That's what I was figuring.

589. 2:08:06

     Yeah.

590. 2:08:07

     Okay. Um, I'm, I'm almost done, Mr. Chairman. Um, sorry. Uh, let's see. So let me ask you, is it, is it, is it just oversim- oversimplifying this thing to just say, "W- why don't we just buy the affected property, affected area?"

591. 2:08:24

     Because what you wanna do is, is set out clear parameters, what gets back to the point that was raised a, a while ago. When it comes to future development, you wanna be able, to be able to, to, to turn to the property owners similar to folks who, who want to purchase property and, and go back and look at the zoning regulations and go, "Okay, I can build, I can build a house here, but I can't build a petroleum plant."

592. 2:08:50

     Sure.

593. 2:08:50

     And that's the sort of thing forward thinking rather than trying to deal it in a piecemeal manner. Is that basically why?

594. 2:08:56

     But, but I'm glad you said that, Ed. Uh, one of the things you said earlier, you know, there's a, the zoning dictates the use, right?

595. 2:09:03

     Yeah.

596. 2:09:03

     And, but this is, this is not like that. It's not like zoning because the use is, we're not talking about the use. We're talking about allowable use. Like, I can grow pine trees on this property, but now I can only grow pine trees that are this tall, right?

597. 2:09:17

     Yeah.

598. 2:09:17

     So it's not allowable use in zoning. It is, it is a, you know, um, a reduced right in your property. Even if it is allowable to be agriculture, now you can only, um, grow pine trees that are six feet.

599. 2:09:30

     Well, I think, I think that does fit within zoning. A lot, a lot of allowable, a l- a lot of use that does clarify what kinds of use can be done in a particular area.

600. 2:09:37

     And there is compensation for that. It's called a navigation easement.

601. 2:09:41

     Mm-hmm.

602. 2:09:41

     So you're not buying the property in fee simple. You're buying the airspace over the property, and you're compensating the property owner for that.

603. 2:09:49

     Very good.

604. 2:09:50

     So to buy all the property around the airport really isn't feasible. We don't need that much land. You can do what you want on the ground most of the time. It's just when it starts penetrating where the aircraft are that, um, but there is compensation that's available through the FAA for that.

605. 2:10:05

     So, so are, are you aware of any k- any issues recently where an airport, um, uh, uh, required an owner to, or, or asked an owner to cut trees?

606. 2:10:17

     Yeah, all the time. Yeah.

607. 2:10:19

     All right. And then at whose expense is that?

608. 2:10:23

     It depends. Um, the air- the FAA will pay for a one-time tree cut.

609. 2:10:27

     Mm-hmm.

610. 2:10:27

     And once they pay for it one time, it's up to the airport to maintain that locally at their expense. Um, in my local jurisdiction, we have a, a zoning ordinance in place. And so if the property owner did allow something to obstruct it, it's at the, the cost of the property owner. However, we have stepped in and, and paid for that. Not everybody can.

611. 2:10:48

     Gotcha.

612. 2:10:48

     And, and, and representative, if I can go back, I got a good example here as well. Uh, when it comes to trying to create a s- trying to create a structure that can deal with that situation as opposed to a property owner in some rare cases, hopefully very rare cases, that simply try to take advantage and create a artificial amount. Um, and Andrew, that's your area.

613. 2:11:09

     Yeah. So we, we had, uh, have a property owner actually that, um, we need to cut trees on the property. He's unwilling to work with us. Um, we were actually able to get funding to an amount, but the federal government will only give you within a, within 10% of an appraised value. So, um, he said, "You guys can cut my trees for $50,000 a tree." You know, and, and of course we can't do that. Um, but the, the funding is the real issue. I mean, of course, we would love to be able to own everything within a three-mile radius of the airport.

614. 2:11:42

     You could have a perfect airport, but then you also have to spend a lot of money keeping that property, uh, updated and, and clear and all that. Um, so you're just spending more money than you need to spend. But when you're talking about right of way, like, like GDOT, uh, on a roadway, yeah, they're, they're paying property owners, uh, like for that easement, uh, to cut those trees. Um, so it's not that we would not be reimbursing property owners, uh, for those trees to be cut, 'cause we already do that.

615. 2:12:16

     It's just a lot more piecemealed than if you had like a blanket legislation out there.

616. 2:12:23

     Sure.

617. 2:12:23

     Um, and then property owners that are unwilling to work with you are also pushed into the process that says, "Okay, I don't have to work with you, but if I don't, then I'm gonna get a fine."

618. 2:12:36

     Very good. And I'm, and I'm glad you brought up the piece about the main- maintenance. You know, in line 101, 6344, has DNR, you know, have they got the money in the budget, if this is state property, to maintain these, these, these areas right now? Or have they been consulted? Have we talked to them? Do you know yet?

619. 2:12:53

     GDOT? No.

620. 2:12:55

     No. Not yet.

621. 2:12:57

     No.

622. 2:12:57

     Okay. All right. And then my last one here. What is, what does line 130 mean to you? The authority granted in this article shall be independent and exclusive from any other authority granted by laws, by the laws of this state.

623. 2:13:18

     Where's 130? I don't know where 130 is.

624. 2:13:26

     Which line was it?

625. 2:13:27

     130.

626. 2:13:28

     Page six.

627. 2:13:29

     Page six, line 130.

628. 2:13:30

     I've, I've considered it, uh, representative as simply meaning it's the last law, it's the last law passed. And so it's-

629. 2:13:37

     The last law passed?

630. 2:13:40

     Until the next law gets passed.

631. 2:13:42

     The au- the authority granted in this article shall be independent and exclusive of any other authority granted by the laws of the state.

632. 2:13:48

     Yeah.

633. 2:13:48

     Um, that's different language than I'm used to seeing, um-

634. 2:13:51

     I-

635. 2:13:51

     ... uh, last in time. But, um-

636. 2:13:53

     I grant you that, Mr., uh, Representative.

637. 2:13:55

     Yeah.

638. 2:13:56

     Uh, to a certain degree, we were trying to pull together language that was utilized in Florida. Perhaps better language would be better. I'll, I'll be the first one to admit.

639. 2:14:04

     Um, I, I'm, I am, um, certainly an advocate for the airports. I'd like to help you all however we can. Um, but it seems to me that, I don't know if this is drawn for a specific situation, but it seems to me, and, and you guys gotta re- realize, I'm looking at the airports through, um, you know, the, the rural eyes. You know, my airports.

640. 2:14:23

     Yeah.

641. 2:14:23

     It may be easier to buy three miles worth of property. Oh, I know it is more, easier to buy three, up three miles worth of property than it is in Gwinnett or, or any of these other areas. But it seems to me that everything that you're asking for could be accomplished if we just, if we had a, um, um, conversation with some of these cities and counties that are, I guess, affecting, um, these affected areas. Is, ha- have we been down that road to say, "Hey, county, we need you to help us out here and zone these areas so that they are not being effective, uh, not affecting my air- my airport area and/or city." Has that already been tried?

642. 2:15:02

     I guess that's already been tried.

643. 2:15:04

     We-

644. 2:15:04

     You know, it gets back to the piecemeal aspects, uh, Representative. And I think one reason why we wanted you to hear from folks, you know, in more, uh, urban areas than Gwinnett.

645. 2:15:15

     Urban areas, yeah.

646. 2:15:16

     Yeah.

647. 2:15:16

     More rural areas such as Perry and Dalton and sort of, I guess you're more in the urban area as well.

648. 2:15:22

     Peachtree City.

649. 2:15:23

     Yeah.

650. 2:15:23

     But I'm right on the border of, uh-

651. 2:15:24

     Right on the border

652. 2:15:25

     ... Gwinnett County.

653. 2:15:25

     So yes, the, the, the problem, problems we wanted to show you is that these problems exist throughout the state from both the more urban to the more rural.

654. 2:15:33

     S- s- so what, can you give me an example of like, so, so what does that, what does that negotiation look like? You said, "Hey, we need you to do this," and then the counties or cities are just like, "No, we don't wanna do it," or?

655. 2:15:45

     Yeah, e- exactly. The, in their mind, it doesn't benefit. In fact, it, in Gwinnett's case, it, it hinders them from development in their own area. So they, they see it as they're being hindered, but they have to understand these airports are a part of a national system-

656. 2:16:02

     Mm-hmm

657. 2:16:03

     ... and funded not only federally, but with state dollars as well. They're not just, they're the local airport, but that's not the only people pouring money into these airports.

658. 2:16:12

     Well, that's a fair, that's a fair point. Um, I, it seems like a very, very, um, um, new, uh, and very strong, um, hammer right here that we're gonna be using because it, it seems like what this does is it gives an airport authority, uh- The ability to overrule, um, a city or county, um, governing authority. And, you know, Josh will tell you, I have, I have, um, I have a, I have a railroad in my town, and we love our railroad.

659. 2:16:46

     Um, the- but as you all are aware, the authority f- of a railroad is, is significant. And, um, you know, if you've sat behind a train track for eight hours, uh, on seven crossings, you can see the trepidation or nervousness, uh, to expand a, uh, an authority's authority to, uh, override the local elected officials, um, to an e- a much... You know, the other thing is this is gonna be an appointed board, right? So it's not an elected board. So what happens in the case where the authority goes, you know, no one in here would do this, but s- an authority just says, you know, they go overboard.

660. 2:17:23

     They, they... Then what is the recourse for the citizens to say, "Wait a minute, authority. You guys are going heavy. You're pretty heavy-handed here." How do they, how do they get those folks out of those seats? Uh, if they're appointed, there's no way to do that. And, and those are just, um, uh, points. I'm willing to, uh-

661. 2:17:41

     Well, they-

662. 2:17:42

     ... work with the chairman, and I wanna work with everybody-

663. 2:17:43

     Yeah

664. 2:17:43

     ... in this issue. I'm just pointing out some of the, some of the stuff.

665. 2:17:47

     I think that's one of the points I've been trying to make-

666. 2:17:49

     Yeah

667. 2:17:49

     ... 'cause in my case, I'm an authority. I don't think we should be doing that. And so what would my recourse be? How do we rewrite that portion of it so I have recourse as authority? If the city or county does not act, my recourse should be the state, not I have the authority now to...

668. 2:18:12

     You need some teeth is what you need. You need some teeth-

669. 2:18:14

     We, that, that-

670. 2:18:14

     ... to make it happen

671. 2:18:15

     ... that, that, that's what we're-

672. 2:18:16

     Exactly

673. 2:18:16

     ... that, that, that's exactly what we're looking for.

674. 2:18:18

     That's the ask.

675. 2:18:19

     Yeah.

676. 2:18:19

     Is, is, is-

677. 2:18:19

     Yeah

678. 2:18:19

     ... teeth for it, and, and who should provide the teeth. We're not look to-

679. 2:18:23

     That's fair. That's fair. I think that's fair.

680. 2:18:25

     I don't want, I don't wanna get into planning and zoning. That's way beyond our capability.

681. 2:18:31

     Our, our goal is for the counties and the cities in the impacted area to put together the necessary local requirements.

682. 2:18:38

     That's fair.

683. 2:18:38

     And to put teeth in the requirements.

684. 2:18:38

     You guys, you guys need a, some sort of recourse to make it happen.

685. 2:18:42

     Yeah.

686. 2:18:43

     Um, I'm not... I would, I would just like to talk with y'all more offline. I don't wanna waste any m- more, everybody's time, but I'd like-

687. 2:18:50

     We'll-

688. 2:18:50

     ... to talk with you more offline on how maybe we can get there. Just nervous about some of the words in this document. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

689. 2:18:57

     And, and, and that's why the chairman is simply d- putting this out there before we even drop the bill, and we appreciate that.

690. 2:19:03

     Representative Persinger.

691. 2:19:05

     I just wanted to come back to, uh, Whip Burchett's first point, um, looking around there, six plans, you know, in 6263 about, um, taking up enforcing regulations if the municipality doesn't, uh, move to act. Um, it... So that would be sort of taking on zoning power. C- uh, an elected group, i.e. cities, counties, cannot delegate their zoning power to an authority. Is that correct, or am I mistaken in state law, Whip?

692. 2:19:36

     I, I believe that to be true.

693. 2:19:38

     I believe it, too.

694. 2:19:39

     So I'd just caution a lot of this language about taking over and enforcing power if a municipality doesn't take over. And I... Listen, I love my airport. I absolutely agree it's a economic engine. I just wanna make sure if we do put a bill together, that it doesn't get challenged and knocked-

695. 2:19:54

     We're not, we're not-

696. 2:19:55

     ... down because of zoning power.

697. 2:19:56

     I, I, agree with you, Representative.

698. 2:19:58

     Yeah.

699. 2:19:58

     And, and frankly, what we're looking for is where to find the teeth.

700. 2:20:01

     Sure. I, I get it.

701. 2:20:02

     And if we can find the teeth-

702. 2:20:03

     It's-

703. 2:20:03

     ... along the lines of what we're talking about, we think would be preferable.

704. 2:20:05

     Yeah. I agree. A lot of places it's easy.

705. 2:20:07

     We want zoning, we want zoning to remain in the hands of elected individuals.

706. 2:20:09

     A lot of it's easy to handle in most places, but I get it. There's others that are a challenge to work with, just like most cities and counties struggle with utilities, so.

707. 2:20:19

     Representative Horner.

708. 2:20:21

     Thank you, Chairman. And I won't beat a dead horse. I appreciate the Whip's comments and, uh, Persinger's comments, because I feel the same way on those notes. Um, I wanna stress, we talked about this a couple months ago, which is, uh, the approaches, um, and how approaches haven't changed over 10, 20 years, and how if we are going to build an airport, we need to make sure we grandfather clause these things in, because these, these calculations and these approaches aren't changing. It's the same trajectories of landing a plane as it was 20, 30 years ago. And so my point is, if we do this, we need to make sure we have a strong grandfather clause in for the property owners, because it's not their fault that we are now addressing this issue as a state.

709. 2:20:57

     The second thing being, which is the tyranny of boards, which is kind of what is being mentioned, and the voting power, who holds that voting power. My biggest concern of this tyranny of the boards is you spoke on one, one substance of the City of Perry and the County of Houston being pro your s- your, your airport, but the, uh, other approach, your other county on the other side, was against it. Well, according to this bill, they're have two votes, they're have two votes, and they have the chairman's vote, and then you'll have two more, uh, for the other county. And this county will always get outvoted, and they'll always have to change their zoning and their regulations to fit these five other votes on this board.

710. 2:21:34

     Um, my suggestion would be to look at some type of, like, local, local delegation authority or power, because again, we wanna make sure that this maintains in the hands of an elected official somewhere. And I don't know how you do that, I'm just simply saying that's the concern here. So thank you, guys.

711. 2:21:51

     Are you suggesting... I'm, I'm writing this down, Representative. Are you suggesting that, that as an alternative to what's in the bill, that the, um, that through local legislation, that the affected counties and cities would come together? For instance, let's just say that, I don't know, uh, you, you represent, you represent, uh, Perry. You represent Peach County. You represent-

712. 2:22:18

     Correct

713. 2:22:18

     ... uh, Houston County. Uh, if you don't like the board That's being created, but you want to create the board yourself and, and structure that-

714. 2:22:25

     Or, or have some vote

715. 2:22:26

     ... that you have, that you have the option th- through lo- local legislation to create the board and-

716. 2:22:32

     Or dismember it or, or yes, or to change it in some way. That way it gives some oversight to the people. I understand. I understand.

717. 2:22:38

     I don't follow.

718. 2:22:39

     And I don't know, I'm not, not saying how you do that and I'm not getting specific.

719. 2:22:41

     I'm not saying-

720. 2:22:42

     I'm just simply saying-

721. 2:22:42

     ... I'm not saying you're required to. I'm saying that you would have the option if you, if you were unhappy with how the board was set up, that you would have, through local legislation, the power to develop the board in the manner that you think best suits the interests of the constituents. I'm just asking.

722. 2:22:56

     And no, and I agree that there needs to be some buy-in to the local, so I'm not trying to just say it sh- should be us.

723. 2:23:01

     I'm not saying it should be.

724. 2:23:01

     I'm just simply saying there needs to be some balance here so one county isn't getting tyrannically ran by the s- the, the next county and city over. And so that's all I'm trying to say is there needs to be some balance here. I'm just saying. Thank you, Chairman. Nothing.

725. 2:23:15

     You bet. Thank you. Number 16, Representative McCollum.

726. 2:23:20

     Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, I had, um... Explain to me, I, I'm, I'm a little bit slow. I'm from North Georgia, so I'm even slower than he is. So, um, the companies, like a, a authority, are they a for-profit company versus like a mist- mist- municipality?

727. 2:23:39

     No. No, it's not.

728. 2:23:40

     No.

729. 2:23:41

     We're a profit company.

730. 2:23:42

     So they don't make profit at all?

731. 2:23:43

     We're required to be as self-sustaining as possible per our federal grant assurances.

732. 2:23:48

     Okay. All right. I was just trying to figure out the difference between an airport that was run by a county or city versus, uh, one that's run-

733. 2:23:55

     It is the same structure. We have all the same FAA requirements that we be as self-sustaining as possible.

734. 2:24:01

     But y- you don't have an influx of money. If a county or city runs one, they can put money into it, correct?

735. 2:24:06

     Correct. But, uh, with an airport authority, we, we are standalone. I, I receive no funds.

736. 2:24:11

     So but with the county or city, they can actually, uh, if you have jets or whatever, they c- they actually generate revenue off the, the, the planes that are parked at their airport, correct? Or, or have them.

737. 2:24:21

     Right. With, with ad valorem and fuel tax, yeah.

738. 2:24:24

     But if you're a authority, you don't reap any of those benefits at all?

739. 2:24:27

     Don't see a dime of it.

740. 2:24:28

     Okay.

741. 2:24:29

     If I'm not mistaken, there are some authorities that do get county and city funds.

742. 2:24:35

     Okay.

743. 2:24:36

     That's their choice.

744. 2:24:36

     But that would be up to a local intergovernmental agreement.

745. 2:24:38

     That's a choice. That's a local issue.

746. 2:24:41

     Okay. All right. So, uh, so that, I was just trying to clarify that in my mind. And then f- if, uh, one last point, uh, I, I wanted to take up for my friends in the city of Lawrenceville, um, to, to what he was- ... he was speaking of. Uh, Gwinnett County, uh, has the habit of suing their cities.

747. 2:24:59

     Oh.

748. 2:24:59

     So they, they, they do-- they're their own worst enemy, because I've been sued by them before when we created Mulberry.

749. 2:25:05

     I understand. Like I said, they don't all play well together either way.

750. 2:25:07

     Right. Yeah.

751. 2:25:08

     I'm not saying one's right and one's wrong.

752. 2:25:10

     So I want to take up for my city of Lawrenceville. So thank you.

753. 2:25:13

     I understand, sir. We're casting no aspersions other than the fact that, that they're, they're, they're arguing children.

754. 2:25:20

     Representative Jenkins.

755. 2:25:23

     I just want to address, uh, the issue of local control. Now, I, when I was on an airport authority, I was appointed by the county commission for a year term. Well, what's the normal thing y'all see out there to how these people want it? 'Cause I know we do, we do have appointed people that are appointed by elected people that do administer things in, in our governments. Uh, what's normal?

756. 2:25:43

     Uh, my authority is made up of seven individuals. Uh, the city, uh, appoints the chairman and two individuals. The county, um, um, uh, has the vice chairman and two individuals, and there is a seventh position that floats between the two. Two years, uh, it's a city, um, representative. In the next two years, it's a county representative.

757. 2:26:05

     Okay.

758. 2:26:05

     It varies airport to airport. Mine, um, they're all appointed by the city of Peachtree City for a five-year term, and they, one will revolve off every year.

759. 2:26:14

     Okay. I know we had this discussion with the property tax the other day about, uh, was it IDAs evading taxes. You know, it's one of those things we got to be careful who we appoint, uh, particularly when we start empowering these boards. Another thing I want to address, we talk about approaches, and approaches matter because approaches affect your obstacle clearance. And, uh, we don't know all the approaches an airport's gonna have when that a- airport's created. I mean, the one that I was a board member on, it's like the oldest one in the state, down in Roosevelt Memorial, where J- President Roosevelt used to land there.

760. 2:26:48

     It was, it started as an open field. And we don't even have an instrument approach, but we, we do have a weather station. We hope to get one. We get that, it's gonna change things. Uh, Coweta County has an ILS approach, which they were very happy to get. But now, as a result of that ILS approach, that completely changed their clearance requirements. And, you know, as, as, as our communities grow, these approaches could change and grow. But yeah, typically, you know, they're welcome. So it's, it's not a, it's not something we can forecast to say, "This is an airport and this is all the approaches that will ever be there." Um, but it's, it's also something the FAA don't make you take one if you don't want one.

761. 2:27:27

     You know, it's, it's, it's definitely your choice. But, but, you know, and an airport without an approach is nothing but a novelty though, really. Um, and, uh, yeah, I guess that's, I guess that's the only, only points I had to make. I'm, I'm good.

762. 2:27:38

     Well, just as, as to follow up to that, what this addresses is not necessarily exactly our approaches, but the protected airspace around the airport, which falls under FAA, uh, Part 77. So it's, it's a little bit different than just an approach.

763. 2:27:54

     Okay.

764. 2:27:54

     And it's, it's a notice criteria. It's, there's not to say that something can't penetrate that space. The, what is to say is that it has to be studied by the FAA, and if it can be mitigated, then that, it could happen. So that's what Part 77 does.

765. 2:28:12

     Now, a- and I notice your airport, for instance, you have warehouses built right up to the fence. So we can build most things right next to an airport.

766. 2:28:19

     At Meriwether County-

767. 2:28:19

     We're literally talking about five, probably five stories and above, and actually is it off the end runway, or is it-

768. 2:28:25

     It depends if it's off to the side or whatever. I know Meriwether County recently approved a cell tower half a mile from the airport, but it's not off the end of the airport.

769. 2:28:33

     Yeah. So it, it's not literally like a five-mile dead space around these airports-

770. 2:28:37

     It's not

771. 2:28:38

     ... that we're trying to create.

772. 2:28:39

     It, it goes up and out

773. 2:28:41

     That's all I have.

774. 2:28:44

     We've exhausted the questions. Now I'm gonna ask a dumb question. As we sit here, I wanna make sure that I understand that this one concept that the FAA has, um, regulations or notification or, um, advice on what can happen on these approaches. Uh, is that true?

775. 2:29:09

     Yeah.

776. 2:29:09

     So they, they have... You have a... There's a map somewhere in the dusty corners of America that has your airport on it that shows what the FAA thinks should be allowable in the approach to your airport.

777. 2:29:24

     Yes. And the, and the FAA flies those approaches every two years to verify those approaches.

778. 2:29:29

     That's the issue with LiDAR and all that.

779. 2:29:31

     Yeah. I mean, they'll fly them with th- they've got an air- their own airplanes. They will fly those approaches.

780. 2:29:37

     Oh.

781. 2:29:37

     And if there's anything that interferes with that approach, then all of a sudden they're on the phone with you, NOTAMs are going in and/or things need to be changed.

782. 2:29:46

     So how far out do they go? I looked at this one diagram. It showed that, you know, um, up to, that's 12,000, almost two and a half miles away. I mean, are they... So they have document that shows what the zoning should be or is or current status of the land a mile, two miles away, two and a half miles away?

783. 2:30:11

     Well, with-

784. 2:30:12

     I guess-

785. 2:30:12

     ... those flight checks, it's really two different things. So you, you have your instrument approaches to, and even a visual approach to a runway, but then you have your protected airspace. They're really two different things. And the FAA doesn't fly around to make sure all of your airspace is protected. They're relying on, on the locals to not allow that. Now, um, the smaller airports in the state, we get inspected by, by GDOT every other year, and they will go out with a handheld instrument. And now we, you know, with LiDAR, it's b- glaringly obvious where trees or obstructions are around the airport.

786. 2:30:46

     Yeah. So-

787. 2:30:46

     That's really the... GDOT does that for the, um, general aviation airports in the state.

788. 2:30:50

     So the final part of my question is that w- Whit Burchett had me thinking. So why... It seems like everybody knows, both counties, let's take your Houston County and Peach County, everybody knows what should be happening. So why can we not just, uh, use the heavy hand of government and limit the funds to a county in some way that says, "You're not cooperating"? I don't know how you would do that. I'm just, I'm just kind of thinking this out loud, the saying that, you know, we're gonna require the cooperation on these local airports, and then we're gonna require that, you know, you do, you have zoning that fits this.

789. 2:31:31

     Instead, I mean, we're creating a lot here instead of just letting the counties do their zoning, and then we force them to really do it. And if they don't, we take some money away somewhere.

790. 2:31:42

     Well, the, the, the, the... Has existed now in the, in the bill. Uh, the only hammer that's in there is you lose your aviation dollars.

791. 2:31:52

     Yeah, we don't wanna do that yet. I'm talking about other dollars that-

792. 2:31:55

     Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no

793. 2:31:55

     ... the state make.

794. 2:31:56

     No, and that, and that's, and that's the point. I mean-

795. 2:31:58

     That's why I said heavy-handed

796. 2:31:58

     ... we could potentially just we'll see how the people-

797. 2:32:02

     I know they're running, GMA's running up the street right now thinking that.

798. 2:32:05

     Yeah. I mean, you know, d- if you want to, you know, just take away all their transportation dollars if we don't cooperate.

799. 2:32:09

     Well, you know.

800. 2:32:10

     I don't think, I don't know if you wanna do that.

801. 2:32:11

     Oh, is that-

802. 2:32:11

     But-

803. 2:32:12

     I guess what I'm asking Whit Burchett, is that simpler than making a... Sounds like he's looking for a, a simpler, clearer way of doing it, but this, is that a, an idea that maybe need to be pursued?

804. 2:32:26

     Um.

805. 2:32:27

     Mr. Chairman, I'm, uh, uh, open to w- whatever it is you would like to do obviously-

806. 2:32:31

     Oh, no

807. 2:32:31

     ... as the chair. But I'm, uh, I'm, um, uh, just the, the broad authority within this document, I understand this is the starting point. Um, this is scary to me. Um, and, um, you guys need teeth. I, I, I, I get that. Um, w- uh, this may be just a, a little bit, um, nerve-wracking for someone like myself. We've gotta figure out a way to do it.

808. 2:32:55

     Yeah.

809. 2:32:57

     Yeah.

810. 2:32:57

     But I, I'm just, this is, this starting point right here is, uh, a little bit, uh, broad in my opinion. But-

811. 2:33:03

     And I think Chairman Jasperse had a, a very good point. Uh, maybe, uh, cut off other types of funding, and they, they'd fill that a lot faster.

812. 2:33:11

     Yeah. Quite frankly, it'd be, it's up to, up to the wisdom of this committee, but if this committee were to simply say, "Either c- either comply or you lose all your transportation dollars," I guarantee there'd be every, everybody would comply immediately. Um.

813. 2:33:27

     Well, I'll just be aware of that issue.

814. 2:33:27

     Where, where are the most-

815. 2:33:28

     I'm just, I'm just throwing, I'm just-

816. 2:33:29

     Where are the most egregious, um, which airports are the most impacted right now?

817. 2:33:34

     I'm not gonna tell you anything.

818. 2:33:35

     Uh, we'd have to ask-

819. 2:33:36

     The hammer you guys

820. 2:33:37

     ... GDOT that. Uh, so-

821. 2:33:38

     Michael, uh, so, uh, so what, which airport spurred the, this initiative? Like, which airports are the most impacted?

822. 2:33:44

     Actually, actually it was more of looking at the issue as a whole. We're one of only three states in the country that do not have any kind of blacklist, and we have enough examples around the state to... Uh, there isn't one necessarily, necessarily airport that we are concerned about. But as you've heard through the various testimony, this is an issue that ex- that crops up periodically around the state and will continue to do so around the state until we, uh, take that onus off our back of being one of the only three states that doesn't have it.

823. 2:34:17

     Uh, and that's what we're trying to, trying to bring ourselves in, in line with it.

824. 2:34:20

     It, it's an ongoing issue, and I really believe it is statewide. I can't point to any one particular airport who had a huge issue and that's what brought this about.

825. 2:34:30

     Yeah.

826. 2:34:30

     This, this is just our, we represent the airports statewide.

827. 2:34:34

     Yeah.

828. 2:34:34

     Yeah.

829. 2:34:35

     Yeah. In the study that we commissioned, we actually do have those numbers. That data's in there, um, all the airports that have obstruction problems. And, and, uh, so we, we do have that data available.

830. 2:34:45

     Is it, is, uh, is there, uh, and, and, and maybe my friend, uh, the pilot can he- help me who's a pilot. Um, is there, have we had, um, some a- a- aircraft ... crashes due to this, this? Or, or, or, or, or is there-

831. 2:35:02

     No, we wanna avoid that.

832. 2:35:04

     I mean, I wanna avoid that as well, but have we ha-

833. 2:35:07

     No

834. 2:35:07

     ... have we had a problem with an airplane landing or taking off, uh, because of some obstruction in the affected area?

835. 2:35:16

     Well, typically the, the approach is affected first. So if they raise your minimums or they raise your approach, then you're just not flying as low as you were before. So the airport is affected, uh, before you would actually have a, an accident or incident, if that makes sense.

836. 2:35:33

     Got it. Yeah.

837. 2:35:34

     Yeah.

838. 2:35:35

     Yeah, that, that's, that's the problem right now. The only stick is the FAA's after the fact. You build it, and all of a sudden you can't use your airport, or you can't... or you're limited in how you use your airport.

839. 2:35:46

     Yeah.

840. 2:35:46

     And what we're trying to do is avoid that.

841. 2:35:49

     Yeah.

842. 2:35:49

     And, and quite frankly, allow this general assembly and the local governments to get the best bang of their buck that they're spending.

843. 2:35:56

     If, if somebody builds some structure that is too tall for that approach, then what the FAA says is, "We have to displace your threshold." And so now your 5,000-foot runway may be a 4,000-feet long, because you have to land 1,000 feet down. So-

844. 2:36:12

     And that, that was a state initiative to extend those runways to 5,000 feet.

845. 2:36:16

     Yeah.

846. 2:36:17

     And then now not all of that pavement is usable because of an obstruction.

847. 2:36:23

     Great discussion. Representative.

848. 2:36:25

     So, uh, my question would be, um, uh, can we, can we not just set up some type, some type of arm under DOT or one of the other departments to just, just to do exactly what this bill is, put it in a state, state agency?

849. 2:36:41

     So

850. 2:36:42

     I mean, would that not be simpler? That way it's somebody that we have control over.

851. 2:36:47

     Josh says yes.

852. 2:36:47

     See, Josh is back there.

853. 2:36:51

     I, I volunteer Josh, absolutely.

854. 2:36:53

     Josh is trying to find the door right now it looks like.

855. 2:36:58

     Come on down.

856. 2:37:00

     It'll be more funding, right? I, y'all want my money.

857. 2:37:06

     Representative Preyssler, you had something you wanted to say a minute ago, and then we were... We're, you were next, Levin. Thank you.

858. 2:37:14

     Oh, just so if we're trying to put teeth into this, instead of withholding funding, and this would sort of withhold funding, but typically, or not typically, at SDS strategy, every county, city, they have to work those out, and they have to update them, I believe, every 10 years. If they don't come to an agreement and they are out of compliance, they cannot apply for any state or receive a state permit until they get that done. It's gotta be arbitrated, unless a judge grants an injunction on that to allow that to happen. So maybe somehow withholding permitting, um, at that county level for any state, you know, DOT permit, um, water withdrawal permits.

859. 2:37:50

     I mean, those are things that are extremely important to a community that would make them come to the table and work it out, I would hope sooner rather than later.

860. 2:37:58

     Thank you.

861. 2:38:01

     Vice Chairman.

862. 2:38:03

     Well, I look at this, if we could stay about three more hours, we might be truck weights. So, so so, I mean, I've watched people yawn. I've watched people stretch. Um, Mr. Chairman, I, a lot of great questions, a lot of great discussion. It's, it's something that needs to be addressed, and, and I, I'm sure we could sit here and find more questions, but I'd like to, to make a motion that, that this committee look to pick up some members that have asked some great questions to, to get together and, and I...

863. 2:38:37

     and get together with the two associ- well, a member of each association to sit down. There'd be a five-person panel to look at this legislation over the next week and get back with us the following week. And I'd like to see, uh, Whip Burchett chair the committee, and our, our pilot Jenkins be on the committee, and Representative Preysinger, uh, be on the committee, too, and the member of each, one of each of your associations.

864. 2:39:06

     Yeah.

865. 2:39:07

     And that's, I'm making that in a motion.

866. 2:39:10

     I second.

867. 2:39:10

     Okay. Is there any discussion on that? I hear none. All those in favor of the vice chairman's motion say aye.

868. 2:39:18

     Aye.

869. 2:39:18

     Any opposed? I figured you'd say no. You did. That was... Boy, that was... I didn't hear anything from your side.

870. 2:39:27

     I'm just standing.

871. 2:39:31

     No, I think that's a good solution. Now, we've talked about this this third time, and I know, uh, we've had lots of good discussions. So-

872. 2:39:38

     We should do it one more.

873. 2:39:39

     You know, we have a meeting not next week, but the week after. So that's what? Two weeks. So we'd, hopefully we can have something that-

874. 2:39:47

     Yeah

875. 2:39:47

     ... that we can work on, and we will have a bill that we could, if we can, agree to.

876. 2:39:53

     Yes, sir. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And if I may add, uh, Chairman Burchett, rather, uh, Whip Burchett violated a basic rule of church. Uh, you talk too much. You're in charge of the next fundraiser.

877. 2:40:08

     Okay, thank you. Members, thank you for being here. Thank you for the discussion. Y'all are great involved. You have something to say?

878. 2:40:14

     Mr. Chairman, I just wanted, this is a, this is a little off that subject, but earlier it was brought up about, you asked about hangars and whether people are applying for them, and the question was about, uh, uh, funding being withheld for three years. There is, within the, um, application form in section B of the first paragraph, it specifically states, "Airport sponsors agree not to request federal funding above allocated entitlements for three years if awarded hangar funding." I just want to make sure that we knew that.

879. 2:40:49

     There is a three-year-

880. 2:40:52

     Penalty

881. 2:40:53

     ... can't alloc- can't, can't allocate funding, uh, entitlements above, above your entitlement. So-

882. 2:40:59

     You keep talking, you might get appointed, too.

883. 2:41:04

     Committee, thank you. This meeting is adjourned.

884. 2:41:07

     Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

885. 2:41:14

     Are we still meeting with, are we still meeting?