Comité Ethics del Senado, 22 de enero de 2026

Transcripción

378 turnos. Seleccione un tiempo para reproducir ese momento del video.

1. 0:26:46

   And, um, I'm gonna ask my vice chair, uh, to pray for us. And Vice Chair Williams, if you will, just pray for the weather that's headed this way, and all the people, and, uh, state employees, and workers, and people that are gonna be having to deal with this storm in the coming days, and the citizens of our state and around our state. So I'll turn the floor over to you.

2. 0:27:08

   Thank you, sir. Let us bow our heads. Dear God, once again, I come to you again today, dear Lord, to ask you for your blessings and your, your help to please bless the citizens of Georgia as we're facing this terrible weather coming our way. Keep everyone safe, the workers, the law enforcement, everyone, keep them safe. Watch over each of us and help us to make wise decisions and be safe, and to give us the knowledge and the courage to carry out the will and the laws of this state.

3. 0:27:53

   In thy name we pray. Amen.

4. 0:27:56

   Amen.

5. 0:27:56

   Thank you, sir. Appreciate that. And again, welcome, uh, to the first, uh, ethics meeting of 2026. Uh, it's good to see, uh, everybody here. Um, and, um, I guess just to maybe introduce a couple new folks, I have Annalisa Mundt, who's my new admin, so she's learning the, the ropes. And I have, uh, two interns over here, or I s- I think they're over there. Um, Erin Kimzey and, uh, McKinley Rembert. Did I mess that up? We got it? You good?

6. 0:28:27

   They're all, uh, brand new and, and learning the ropes, so y'all, y'all bear with us on that, but I know they're excited about this as well. So, um, thank y'all. Um, first order of business we have today is to approve, uh, the State Senate, uh, Georgia Legislative, uh, Black Caucus. Um, we just, I guess, forgot to do it, uh, last year and, um, we're gonna get that, uh, put to bed, uh, today. So, uh, I know representative, uh, I mean, Senator Merritt is here.

7. 0:28:59

   So, um, uh, at this time, I will just entertain a motion to, uh, due pass on this caucus.

8. 0:29:06

   Due pass.

9. 0:29:07

   Second.

10. 0:29:07

    Mr. Chairman, I, I move that we accept and pass this caucus, the GLBC.

11. 0:29:14

    Got a motion and a second. All those in favor say aye.

12. 0:29:19

    Aye.

13. 0:29:19

    Any opposed? All right, good deal. I told you you didn't have to come. We got you covered, girl. All right. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Um, next up, uh, we've got, uh, Whip, uh, Robertson, who has, uh, Senate Resolution 563. Uh, it should be in everybody's folder. Um, if you, uh, will locate that. And then, uh, Mr. Whip, uh, I'm gonna let you just present from your seat right there. You're number, uh-

14. 0:29:50

    10

15. 0:29:50

    ... 10. And, um, I'm gonna go ahead and, uh, turn the floor over to you, and just thank you for being here, and thank you for your work on this.

16. 0:29:57

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, committee members, this is a, a very simple resolution. Um, a while back, um, the Department of Justice reached out to the Georgia Secretary of State's office looking for information related to the voter rolls here in Georgia, as they did in several other states. Uh, we started receiving phone calls from, uh, individuals in a particular, um, county that I represent with concerns that we were, and in their words, uh, once again, not fully cooperating with the federal government on information related to elections in Georgia.

17. 0:30:38

    So, um, after speaking with, uh, some friends and colleagues, I decided to drop a resolution asking the Secretary of State's office, um, to comply, or even more so, to give them the opportunity to come in front of us and educate this committee on why they felt that, uh, they had complied and could not comply beyond that. Uh, as we waited for the legislative session to start, uh, there was a little more, uh, legal volleyball back and forth between the Georgia Secretary of State's office and, um, the Department of Justice.

18. 0:31:24

    And so once we were able to get into session, I was able to, uh, drop the resolution that's before the committee today. Now, since dropping the resolution, there's been a lot of chatter back and forth. Uh, had somebody that I, I consider, uh, a good friend, uh, I saw in the Capitol earlier today asking me, being on my way to ethics, if I was coming over to, to start a storm. Um, I certainly don't think that's my personality.

19. 0:31:54

    Uh, uh, maybe I'm wrong, but, uh, I certainly, that's, that wouldn't be my intention. But I do think that the citizens of Georgia, uh, since they started questioning elections, which I do wanna point out was prior to 20, uh, 20, uh, I believe the first major contentions were probably, uh, in 2016 or right thereafter, where the qu- where our election processes were being questioned, I felt that it was imperative that we get ahead of the curve.

20. 0:32:27

    Uh, yesterday, uh, evening, ye- late yesterday afternoon, I received correspondence that stated that the Secretary of State's office would not be here today, uh, to discuss it based on pending litigation. And I do wanna say that, uh- I was a little confused about that because it seems since I've dropped this resolution that it has already started to be spoken about in public and maybe litigated in the court of public opinion through op-eds in newspapers and multiple interviews with media.

21. 0:33:05

    And so with that being said, I think that my colleagues on the committee from both parties can read the resolution and, um, make the decision without the Secretary of State's office here to explain their part as to where they feel that this resolution should be voted on today and, and moved out of this committee. And with that, uh, Mr. Chair, I would, I would say thank you for the opportunity.

22. 0:33:40

    Thank you, Mr. Wipp. And, uh, and just to echo that, yes, we, we did, uh, invite the Secretary of State to be here on Friday. Uh, and they let us know, uh, last night that, uh, they would not be here, um, just to, to make that clear as well. But at this time I'd be glad to open up any questions to, uh, to the author of this, uh, resolution, if there are any.

23. 0:34:10

    Would there be any questions?

24. 0:34:10

    Senator. Yeah.

25. 0:34:11

    Senator. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, and thank you, Mr. Wipp. Uh, just one quick question. Um, so my understanding is that what is being asked of the Secretary of State in terms of records to, uh, turn over to, um, to this party, that it's actually a violation of state law. And so I would just like some clarification on understanding why we are asking our Secretary of State to violate state law by handing over, um, really private data that we cannot sure, can ensure will be protected.

26. 0:34:45

    Why are we asking him to violate state law?

27. 0:34:47

    Well, I'll answer your question, um, Madam Wipp, from the, from the back to the front. Uh, uh, this sensitive data is already passed back through other places. Equifax, everybody else has all of this sensitive data, uh, that he's, that he appears to be concerned about. And I also believe that there are federal laws that supersede Georgia law under the Supremacy Clause. And so, uh, and, and I'm sure you understand that, that no local government can, can pass a law that is in violation of state law, as in the s- no state can pass a law that is in violation of federal law as interpreted under the Supremacy Clause.

28. 0:35:26

    So that would probably be a question. But while I would like to go in depth, uh, in an answer, and I think I, I heard you say it prior to that, uh, not having the Secretary of State's office here, their attorneys or whatever, who always have the opportunity to answer with, "This is currently under litigation, and we do not feel comfortable with answering that question," they have chose not to, uh, to come in here and answer the question. And while, um, I've known, uh, I, I knew the, the Secretary of State well before he was Secretary of State back when he was serving in the House, and he and I have never had in m- to my knowledge, a crossword or, uh, any issues, uh, beyond some of our differences in, in issues related to election management and things of that nature.

29. 0:36:14

    So just a little perplexed, again, by the, uh, choice of, uh, not coming before, uh, a committee of duly elected senators and just, uh, answering questions, and with the questions that he may not be comfortable with answering, that he would have the opportunity to ar- articulate as to why he was not comfortable with answering. But I do believe that, uh, there is a, a conflict between the state law and the federal law, and I do believe some of the other contentions that he has made, such as third-party vendors, uh, are extremely vague, and we would have the opportunity to ask those questions because our understanding, my understanding of who that third-party vendor would be might be different from his understanding of who that third-party vendor is.

30. 0:37:03

    May I follow up? Uh, so thank you for that, Mr. Wipp. I, I do want to be clear though, I'm, I'm asking you as the author of the resolution, um, so for some answers. I understand your frustration about the Secretary of State not being here, but I'd like to know from you as the author-

31. 0:37:17

    Yeah

32. 0:37:18

    ... um, of this, of this resolution, are you aware that this stands in contradictory to Georgia laws? And also, are you aware that federal courts, there are two, have already determined that the DOG, DOJ does not have, um, the jurisdiction, the authority to request this type of information from states? Are you aware of that?

33. 0:37:37

    That, that has not been determined in Georgia, in the states you're referencing, not all the laws are the same. And again, I would direct you to the Supremacy Clause, and I'm sure you probably have a que-

34. 0:37:44

    But these are federal courts.

35. 0:37:46

    I understand that, but they were, it was not th- it was not this particular lawsuit, correct? Do you know which districts those were in?

36. 0:37:53

    Yes, I do.

37. 0:37:54

    Yeah.

38. 0:37:54

    So, so-

39. 0:37:55

    So were they in the district here in Georgia?

40. 0:37:58

    No.

41. 0:37:59

    Okay. I think what you have to realize is the Ninth Circuit can come out with one thing, and, and other, there are still cases to be heard in other circuits. And so it doesn't necessarily apply throughout based on the way the lawsuits are filed. Several states, Tennessee being one, I believe Mississippi, uh, I don't want to misguide you, but I think possibly Louisiana, have already complied once they sat down with the Department of Justice and worked out the details. And what I've, what I have read in the, in the written information provided by the Secretary of State's office, that as much effort has not been carried out on, on the Georgia side.

42. 0:38:41

    The, the primary concern of mine is that we are not fully engaging to do this. What we are doing is we are spending taxpayers' resources to fight something that we have not sat down and fully vetted out with the Department of Justice is my concern.

43. 0:38:59

    Just one follow-up question. Um, I'm deeply concerned that we are going to spend taxpayer dollars, a lot of them, millions of dollars, if we were to send this data information over, and then also compromise the privacy data of our Georgia citizens. So it will both cost a lot of money to send that information, and I believe that it will, it will jeopardize... I, I don't know if you've ever been a victim of identity theft, but I have. Um, I'm deeply concerned about the privacy, um, data and not being stored properly. And the last thing I'll say-

44. 0:39:30

    I, I'm, I, I-

45. 0:39:30

    Well, if you don't mind

46. 0:39:31

    ... Yeah, no, I'm confused

47. 0:39:31

    ... the last thing I'll say-

48. 0:39:32

    Yeah, I'll just answer the, the, the, the-

49. 0:39:34

    I, I-

50. 0:39:34

    One thing you brought up was concerned about the storage of the information. Are you aware of how the information would be stored?

51. 0:39:41

    That's ... There, I think there are a lot of questions around how that information will be stored and whether or not-

52. 0:39:44

    So you are concerned about that?

53. 0:39:45

    ... it will be private.

54. 0:39:45

    Okay.

55. 0:39:45

    So I'm concerned about that.

56. 0:39:47

    Okay. Yeah.

57. 0:39:47

    And then the last thing I will say is that i- I think that constitutionally, so not talking about the Georgia Constitution, but constitutionally, our founders granted authority over elections to states, um, that was given to us, the states and to Congress. And so again, I'm concerned that you are asking us to tell the secretary of state to violate the Constitution of the United States. Not Georgia law, not just Georgia law, but also the Constitution of the United States. So I'm try- I'm having a hard time understanding-

58. 0:40:15

    Yeah

59. 0:40:15

    ... why you want us to pass a resolution that fundamentally violates the Constitution of the United States.

60. 0:40:19

    There are three federal laws passed by the United States Congress that allows this. I would encourage you to look at those, and, and they're mentioned in the resolution, that if you look at those, there would be. And the Department of Justice, uh, deals with an incredibly amount of sensitive information day in and day out. There's a system established to do that, and the information that they're asking for is passed through those systems day in and day out, whether it's the IRS, the Federal Bureau of Investigations, and others, and that system has been proven over and over and over to be safe.

61. 0:40:57

    There are many more state, local, and county systems of information that have been breached than the system used by the Department of Justice, and the systems I'm talking about that have been breached are here in the state of Georgia.

62. 0:41:15

    Well, maybe just to, to add a little bit to that and maybe, maybe help out. Um, in, in my opinion, going back and, and looking at, uh, OCGA 21-225, we do have, um, provisions within Georgia law that do require, um, as long as there are some exceptions that are in code. There's that however part that we, you know, put those things in there that actually do provide, uh, an opportunity and ability for the secretary of the state to provide private confidential information to the federal government, to other people, as long as they meet certain circumstances and things within the Georgia law.

63. 0:41:56

    So there is a, in Georgia law, there is a way to do that. Uh, and, and on the, on the third party part, I know that's, that's been mentioned as well, and, and, um, I know we've got some folks from the SCB here as well, but it's my understanding that the secretary of state also already works with third, other third parties, and I'm assuming that they meet certain criteria that we have outlined in law in that part of the code section as well. So, um-

64. 0:42:21

    Mr. Chair, if I might. The, the code you're, uh, referring to that does allow the sharing of that information, I think is under Title 21, uh, 21-2-225.

65. 0:42:31

    That's correct.

66. 0:42:32

    Yes, sir. Thank you.

67. 0:42:33

    All right. Got, uh, started a few more questions here. Uh, number six. Who's number six?

68. 0:42:38

    Thank you, Mr. Chair.

69. 0:42:39

    Yes, ma'am.

70. 0:42:40

    Uh, and, um, I, I too want to share my concern that we are, uh, with this resolution, uh, asking the secretary of state to violate Georgia law. We, we sent up a prayer, a heartfelt prayer as we opened this meeting, uh, to guide us in upholding the laws of Georgia. We all bowed our heads and prayed for that, uh, guidance to do that, and this flies in the face of that. Uh, we would, we would definitely want to have legal opinion from, uh, uh, our, our counsel.

71. 0:43:11

    Do we have a lawyer, uh, for the, for the committee that can offer us legal op- uh, uh, uh, opinion?

72. 0:43:18

    Um, we, we do. Um, Stuart, do you mind?

73. 0:43:36

    Uh, so I, I think an answer to the, the question as to whether or not the, uh, secretary is empowered under OCGA 21-2-225, it- it's a very, gonna be a very fact-specific, uh, analysis, and I'm not, you know, completely familiar with the exact nature of the Department of Justice's request for the information. Um, but, uh, 21-2-225 does, you know, outline certain conditions where the, um, secretary of state is authorized to share the otherwise confidential information from the voter roll- the election roll- elector rolls, um, to other states.

74. 0:44:14

    Um, so that, you know, that, that's kind of the, the whole point of allowing for the electronic, um, voting system is to allow for, electronic voter rolls is to allow the states to be able to quickly compare their voter rolls with each other. Um, that code section does appear to also apply to aspects of the federal government. Um, so again, that there, it- it's just gonna be a very factual, specific determination as to whether that code section applies, and I'm just not familiar enough with the exact request from the Department of Justice to give a firm opinion on the matter.

75. 0:44:48

    Thank you. And, and, and Mr. Chair, I think, I think that in and of itself, uh, would, would, uh, be a precautionary, uh, advice to us to not be precipitous in moving forward, uh, wh- where, where the legal aspects of this have not been, have not been vetted, have not been vetted. Um, and Republicans as well as Democrats have strenuously fought to protect citizens' privacy rights from federal government intrusion and overreach.

76. 0:45:22

    So why wouldn't we lay this on the table, uh, until there is further, uh, information and we get firm legal opinions that we can, uh, have confidence in before going forward?

77. 0:45:35

    Let's see. We got one or two more here. Let's try to clear it up if we can. Number 13, Chairman Burns.

78. 0:45:41

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, to the author, is it not true that, uh, Georgia participates in ERIC, the Electronic Registration Information system, Center?

79. 0:45:52

    That is true, yes.

80. 0:45:53

    And is it not true that that center collects information from Georgia on, um, motor vehicle records, Social Security death rates, UPS addresses in order to identify duplicate voters? Is that not true, Mr.-

81. 0:46:06

    It is

82. 0:46:07

    ... author. And is it also not true that the secretary of state engages in bilateral agreements to share information with other states? Is that not true?

83. 0:46:14

    That is true and required under Georgia law.

84. 0:46:16

    And required under Georgia law. So there is no difference in sharing this data with ERIC or with other states in complying with the Department of Justice request. I thank the author for his resolution.

85. 0:46:29

    Thank you, sir.

86. 0:46:32

    Uh, number 14. Mr. Leader.

87. 0:46:37

    Mr. Chairman, I'd ask that, um, at the appropriate time, do pass SR 563 LC 473808.

88. 0:46:46

    All right. We got a motion on the floor. Do we have a second?

89. 0:46:49

    Second.

90. 0:46:50

    Got a second. Um, Marty. All right, we do, do have a few more questions here, so we'll just roll right into discussion. Let's go to number three. Mr. Leader.

91. 0:47:02

    Oh, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. One of the concerns I think was also about the information being used by a, an outside party for other reasons other than voting reasons. What do you kinda, um, respond to that, that this could be used by, um, other parties outside of just voting reasons?

92. 0:47:18

    Thank you, Mr. Leader. I appreciate that question. Um, under discussion, um, when I read through, um, everything that was supplied by the secretary of state to the DOJ, I just received all this stuff yesterday, and I think you know when the resolution was dropped. I read through it, and it mentioned third-party vendor, and as I tried to mine through and look who that third-party vendor might be, the only thing I could find is the JEFS system. Uh, it's Electronic Judicial Filing System used by the Department of Justice to manage information received from like the IRS, FBI, and other federal agents- agencies that also includes sensitive information.

93. 0:47:57

    And so drilling down into what third-party vendors were, I think, um, the chairman said it a few minutes ago, is that we engage with a lot of third-party vendors, and based on the RFPs, which includes security and other things required for that, I can only assume, but since the secretary of state's office is not here, is that is possibly what they are talking about when they say third-party vendor. And that is a robust system that anybody in the state of Georgia that files taxes, there's a very, very good chance that your information is in the JEFS system.

94. 0:48:32

    So that, that's the... as good as a response as I can give you, sir.

95. 0:48:36

    If I could have a couple of follow-ups, Mr. Chair.

96. 0:48:38

    That's fine.

97. 0:48:38

    Um, one of those on that particular issue as far as the JEFS system is concerned, in that memorandum understanding that the administration sent to the different, uh, states, it talks about the JEFS system, but it doesn't actually say who would be a authorized user. It doesn't give any limitations at all about who actually could possibly use it. It does say it'll go through JEFS, but it doesn't like say who it'd be limited to. Could that possibly be one of the reasons that our secretary's having issues with this?

98. 0:49:03

    Again, Mr. Leader, without the secretary of state's office being here, I, I, I, I can't intelligently answer that. What I can do is compare it to something that you and I are both familiar with, which is GCIC and NCIC, where sensitive information is stored. And while you and I may have access to the system, um, there, there are guards in the way as to when and why you and I would ever access that system, which because of criminal information, there has to be a reason to go in there. You and I could not go in there just out of curiosity and to search names and, uh, dates of birth and other things.

99. 0:49:39

    And with a system that is trusted by the federal government for as long as it's been in place as the JEFS system, I would feel, uh, confident that that system would be secure. I could find no, um, areas where there have been breaches. Now, that's not to say there wouldn't be an Aldrich Ames or something like that, somebody within the federal government or any other government who may wanna do something sinister. But for what we're talking about with the information that is sensitive as we like to claim it is, is out there everywhere, because when I pay my cable bill, if I have to talk to anybody on the phone if my internet's out, then I'm speaking to somebody who is not located in the United States of America, and I'm giving them the last four of my Social Security number to verify who I am.

100. 0:50:22

     And so I think while we like to talk about this information being the most hypersensitive information in the world, uh, it's really not, which is why most credit card companies and others use different information now to prevent, uh, ID theft.

101. 0:50:36

     D- and Mr. Chair, I actually have two questions, if I may please.

102. 0:50:40

     Yeah.

103. 0:50:40

     Is it... Does it give you any pause though that in the case that you were referencing, the California case, um, it actually is specifically stated by the Department of Justice that, um, Department of Homeland Security is actually gonna be using this information for their own database as far as, um, determining a person's status within the country?

104. 0:50:58

     Well, I think when we say Department of Homeland Security, I think there could possibly be individuals within the Home- Department of Homeland Security who actually have the clearance to be in the JEFS system. But again, they are held under federal regulations and federal law if they were to misuse the JEFS system. And again, it would be the same type of protocol if you and I were to use NCIC or GCIC, that we couldn't go in there on a fishing trip and run around. What we would have to be looking at is a specific individual or specific crime in a specific area where this information is pertinent to that.

105. 0:51:34

     And my second follow-up on that is that, um, is it not accurate that the Department of Justice says one of the reasons that, that it's seeking this information is to comply with, uh, the 1960 Civil Rights Act? That they're actually trying to use the 1960 Civil Rights Act to basically, uh, justify getting this information, uh, and comply with the, um, NV- NVRA and the HVA.

106. 0:51:57

     They're actually using three, um, individual federal laws, and one of those is exactly as you stated. Yes, sir.

107. 0:52:06

     It... But of course, um, if it is the 1960 Civil Rights Act, it, it would be interesting to note that they're t- using that tool to justify using this when the NVRA and the HVA were not passed for almost 30 years after the 1960 Civil Rights Act. So the 1960 Civil Rights Act could never, uh, contemplate, um, being used in this manner because these other statutes did not exist.

108. 0:52:29

     Mr. Leader. Mr. Leader, I d- I d- I, I do agree with, with some of the things you're saying, and it's sad that the secretary of state's office chose not to participate in this conversation to clear those up for us.

109. 0:52:41

     All right. Last one, and we're gonna vote.

110. 0:52:43

     Oh my goodness. Good ri- I had my light on.

111. 0:52:45

     All right. Go ahead. Last one.

112. 0:52:49

     I, I, I'd like for us to pause and think about the ramifications, uh, if we were to pass this information as a state over to the Department of Justice, and then the courts then later proceed to examine this and rule on it. And if the courts ruled that the secretary of state of Georgia was not compelled by law to, uh, share this information, the sensitive personal information about each and every person who is registered in the state of Georgia, once that information is released to the Department of Justice, no matter what courts might rule, you can never pull back that information.

113. 0:53:47

     It's like putting toothpaste, uh, back in a tube. It's like putting the genie back in the bottle. So for us as a committee of the Senate to take a vote today when our own attorney has said there would be, uh, the need for deeper, more m- m- m- m- more factual information in order to give us a solid advice that, that we could rely on, why would we rush to pass this resolution? It is, it- it's just precipitous. It's just, it's, it's, it's...

114. 0:54:19

     And, and, and our secretary of state has been in charge of the voting for eight years, two terms, elected statewide by voters across the state of Georgia, is charged with s- securing this information and appropriately storing it and appropriately sharing or not sharing it. Why would we put our judgment, none of us are election lawyers here, and the lawyer that has spoken on the record that is assigned to advise us has said that he cannot give us full advice on this in this present moment without further exploration.

115. 0:54:56

     So I think that is absolutely grounds for us to take a pause, consider public hearings, consider a- approaching this in a much more legally sound way, rather than to take a f- uh, a late afternoon vote with a resolution that we've, uh, seen for the first time when we have our own committee lawyer saying he cannot fully advise us. What would, what would, why would we rush to do this given that we can never pull that information back once it's, once it's sent up there?

116. 0:55:29

     Even if a ju- all the courts in the land ruled you, y- y- he shouldn't have done it, then it'll be too late, won't it, uh, M- Mr. Witt?

117. 0:55:37

     Uh, Senator Orrock, you've... This is a resolution.

118. 0:55:41

     Uh-huh.

119. 0:55:42

     You, you do understand, and I, and I believe you do understand that the, this resolution urges the Secretary, secretary of State to participate in the Department of Justice investigation fully. That's exactly what it does. When this resolution passes out of here today, it is, does not mean that people with moving trucks and cardboard boxes are gonna back up to the secretary of state's office to start loading up voter records. While I agree with you that we must be cautious, and I think we have, the parts we're missing is not the part of our attorney, who is, who is a very well-read attorney, coming up here saying, "If you read the law on th- on the cover, the law says exactly what I says it says." But that's, that's exactly right.

120. 0:56:24

     Based on the way it is written, it says that they must be shared with states, territories of the United States, and federal agencies within the United States.

121. 0:56:34

     Under certain conditions.

122. 0:56:34

     That's exactly what it says.

123. 0:56:36

     Under certain conditions.

124. 0:56:36

     Yes, ma'am.

125. 0:56:37

     Yeah.

126. 0:56:37

     So understand that. What we were doing is encouraging the secretary of state to participate. And while I have no personal gripe with the secretary of state, he continuously fails to show up and answer the questions, and that is the absolute truth, and members that have sat on this committee have witnessed it more than once. And so he has been given the opportunity, and we gave him another opportunity today, and he failed.

127. 0:57:05

     Call the question, Mr. Chairman.

128. 0:57:06

     Yes, so I b- I'll, I'll take that. We've, we've had enough discussion here. Uh, we need to, uh, vote on this b- this resolution and, uh, and move on down the road. We do have some other speakers that are here to join us and have made an effort to get here, so I wanted to move on to them and give them a opportunity. So all those in, uh, favor of SR 563, please say, "Aye."

129. 0:57:29

     Aye.

130. 0:57:30

     Any opposed?

131. 0:57:32

     No. No.

132. 0:57:33

     All right. The ayes have it. Mr. Whipp, you have a resolution to move on down the road.

133. 0:57:40

     Thank you, sir.

134. 0:57:41

     Um, next up we have, uh, two representatives, uh, from the State Election Board that might could help even share some more light on our, uh, situation. And, and I want them to, to come on up. Uh, Dr. Janice Johnson, who's been on the State Election Board for quite some time, and, and the Senate's new, uh, appointee, um, Ms. Sally Grubbs, is joining us as well. And they both had a long 11-hour meeting yesterday, and I think they've been dealing with, uh, some of the same problems that the, uh, Department of Justice has been dealing with, possibly.

135. 0:58:16

     Maybe they could tell us about it. But really just wanted y'all to come in here and try to, you know, be as quick as you can, as possible. I know you had an 11-hour meeting, and it's hard to summarize that, but, uh, just kinda wanna know, uh, how's it going, and, uh, you know, what can we do to help, I guess. So the floor is y'all's.

136. 0:58:32

     Well, thank you, senators, for having us here today. Uh, my name is Sally Grubbs, and it's a pleasure to meet you all. I believe I sent you all an email saying thank you for the opportunity to serve you and the people of Georgia. And so I'm honored to be here today. Um, would you like the recap of the state of the union with the State Election Board, or would you like me to address the resolution first?

137. 0:58:55

     Short version.

138. 0:58:56

     Short version. I'll keep it... Okay, I'll kiss it. Um, Senator Orrock, I, I wanted to just say that, uh, thank you for your passion and concern for the, uh, personal information. Um, uh, Ms. Gazal and I talked about it yesterday, and I certainly am not for, you know, two wrongs don't make a right.

139. 0:59:13

     Right.

140. 0:59:14

     I understand that. Um, and I certainly don't want to give anyone, um, a plethora of information for Georgia folks either. Uh, but the fact of the matter is, is this has been going on out of the Secretary of State's office for quite some time, and I don't recall anyone getting up in arms over it. When you look at the participation in ERIC and the information that is passed through to other organizations, and the fact that we now have the GARVIS system, uh, for voter registration that is on a Salesforce platform that has been compromised before.

141. 0:59:46

     When you had the previous breaches, uh, with Kennesaw State University in 2018, um, and I don't know that there was any a, a full investigation or uprising in the streets over that. And then if you look on the healthcare side, um, when House Bill 1013 was passed, and you look at the amount of information on, on Georgians' health, um, that were dependent on services that went out into the, the ether of the internet world. And, uh, there've been compromises with third-party organizations like Centene Corporation that at that time admin- helped administer healthcare things.

142. 1:00:19

     I mean, I could give you a list. I've been paying attention for a long time. And, um, so the issue of the resolution came up yesterday on the State Election Board. Dr. Johnston, um, and, uh, you know, I'm not sure if she's the brainiac of all the words, but I did provide some copies to Senator Watson. Um, but we found it necessary to take that action as well. And as a strict constitutionalist, I agree sharing information is not great, and I fully don't want the federal government in my business any more than is necessary.

143. 1:00:51

     But in my view, it's become necessary due to the lack of action, due to the lack of maintaining voter rolls, due to the lack of administrative procedure on behalf of the Secretary of State that we find ourselves in this situation. And like you, I feel like the State Election Board is the red-headed stepchild because we find ourselves without a staff attorney, uh, at the meetings. We don't even have a parliamentarian at this point. We have asked for the, um, Secretary of State's investigators to appear, uh, at the meetings, and yesterday was my first meeting, so Dr.

144. 1:01:24

     Johnston surely has a lot more experience, but again, I've been paying attention. Um, the investigators don't show up, and I'll, um... This will kind of lead into, yes, we had a resolution that we passed, um, and I feel, I support your resolution and your efforts to have the Secretary respond accordingly. Um, yesterday, um, we had a very long agenda, and we were there, uh, at the beautiful Barrow County, um, Historic Courthouse, and we were rece- received very well.

145. 1:01:55

     Um, our admin, uh, Ms. Hope Cohen, did a great job, and our executive director, uh, James Mills, did a great job. And, um, despite what is out in the public, uh, we're a very, uh, fully functioning board. Um, I, you know, kind of felt like I was on a little retreat where we're in this nice, uh, Georgia town, and, uh, we had a great lunch with barbecue. I know that'll shock everyone. Um, but the fact is we went through 30 cases yesterday. And, um, we have been going through cases, but as I found in going through the cases, I wanted to know, what is the procedure that the Secretary of State's investigators go through when they investigate a case?

146. 1:02:35

     Because remember, as the State Election Board, we have 1.5 investigators on staff with the SEB. We are very limited in resources, and, um, you know, that's a, uh, situation for another day, I'm sure. But, uh, I kinda wanted to go through, what does an investigator do? Let me ask some questions. Um, the one case, and I, I'm glad Ms. Julie Allen is here today, uh, the one case that we had where I had some questions for an investigator, but guess what? There were no investigators there to ask any questions of.

147. 1:03:07

     And that was a situation at the High Museum of Art on voting, um, where some folks came up, and they had kind of like a little festival going on, giving out food and drink. And the question is, you know, you can't be any closer than 150 feet to the door. And the estimation was that it was about 25 feet or so. Dr. Johnston can elaborate on that. Um, however, my question was, did the investigator go out with a tape measure and pull a tape and just see how far away from the door these people were?

148. 1:03:40

     No investigator in the room can ask the question. In fact, I'm not allowed to, that I know of, ask the investigators the questions because we have to direct our questions to the chairman who then can ask the questions because as it was, uh, conveyed to me, we're not actually allowed to contact them directly. So there is, um, the dysfunction does not lie on behalf of the board, I can assure you that. I came in with fresh eyes. I was, um, appointed by Lieutenant Governor Jones on December 22nd, and so, um, I've, I've been asking questions.

149. 1:04:16

     I have questions. Um, so that was one case where it would have been helpful to have investigators there. Uh, there were also some legal questions it would have helped to have had counsel there. Um, another situation is that in 2020, I filed an election board complaint, um, concerning some shredding truck activity in Cobb County, and so I wanted to review that case file to see what is their process? What do they actually do? Did they interview the shredding co-company folks? Did they interview the, um, the director of elections?

150. 1:04:48

     What exactly did they do? So I ask for a copy of the case file. Well, guess what? The State Election Board does not have copies of the case files. In fact, it's very difficult to find out what cases have been adjudicated, what cases are open, what cases lie in the hands of the attorney general's office, what comes back from the attorney general's office with recommendations. So we try, we're knocking on the doors, and we're not getting answers at the doors. And, um, so we are very eager to see that corrected, and it would be great.

151. 1:05:20

     I was looking forward and hoping that Secretary Raffensperger would be here today so that we could possibly get some of the same answers to questions that you may have. And, um, we just-- we unfortunately don't get those answers. As to the case in Cobb County, I requested that case file, and, um, I was told because I was a complainant that I would have to file an ORR. So here I sit on the State Election Board, it's a closed case. I thought I could get that, and, uh, so I asked Dr. Johnston if she would do me the favor of filing an ORR on my behalf, which is kind of bizarre.

152. 1:05:55

     Um, so that's, that's kind of my quick rundown of what's going on on the SEB.

153. 1:06:01

     All right. You want to take a few questions before Dr. Johnston goes, or you want to go ahead? Why don't you go ahead and speak to us, and then we'll, we'll take some questions.

154. 1:06:09

     All right. Thank, thank you. Um, thank you for, um, allowing me to be here and, um, speak to, to all of you for a few minutes. Uh, I wasn't really sure what the, um, the topic of the day was, but I think I'm getting a picture of that now. Um, but let me just say a few words about the State Election Board. Uh, we are, um, evolving and still, um, finding our way as a new entity, um, that hopefully will be-- will continue, uh, to, um, evolve into being an independent, um, agency that provides oversight of elections.

155. 1:06:47

     Um, and w- for that, we would respectfully request, um, time and attention toward proper staffing and, um, budgeting, um, to fund the State Election Board, uh, anticipating that the staff of investigators and, um, data analysts that we need for case tracking, um, would, would allow us to fulfill, uh, the duties of the State Election Board. Um, we would, um, also, um, request, um, consideration to codify the rules to ensur- the ones that, um, perhaps have come before you c- to-- that would, um, comply with uniformity in elections across the state.

156. 1:07:33

     Uh, we're very keen on uniformity because that is what, uh, NVRA and HAVA, uh, uh, require, and we want to comply with that. Um, the, um, other thing that I would like, this is personal. This-- I'm not speaking for the board. I'm just speaking personally myself, is a consideration of uniformity of county election boards. There are one hundred and fifty-nine counties in this state, and there are probably about a hundred and fifty-nine ways to compose, uh, to, uh, compose an election board.

157. 1:08:15

     Uh, I think uniformity would, would really help tremendously with counties that are struggling with representation. Um, some counties, um, don't have full boards, perhaps for political reasons. Uh, uh, they struggle with appointments by, um, elected officials who may have political agendas or have bias. So your attention to that and perhaps some legislation that would make that uniform would help.

158. 1:08:48

     My suggestion would be to have a five-person board, have two Republican members, two Democrat members, and an alternating, um, chair from one party or the other with an alter- uh, an alternating chair so that, that at no one time will a board always be of one party majority. Uh, likewise, a three-person board, you could have one and one with an alternating chair. Uh, and, and I would suggest alternating every-- that chair every three years so that a majority would be different for every presidential election cycle.

159. 1:09:31

     So a three-year appointment for a chair would fulfill that need. So just a consideration for that. As far as election legislative priorities, I have Two main ones and a, and a third that is just an issue that's on your plate, I think, for, uh, this legislative session. My number one concern has been and will be voter rolls. Thus, I thank you for your resolution to share the voter rolls with the DOJ, because we see many cases of cross-state double voting allegations.

160. 1:10:11

     And the- we, we are limited in evaluating or investigating voting in other states. We can get some information, but oftentimes it's incomplete. So the- the- the- the role that the DOJ might fulfill would be to check with cross-state double registrations, cross-state double voting. Uh, so I th- I would highly recommend that. Within the state, we have challenges with voter rolls, whether it's the duplication problem coming from Department of Driver Services.

161. 1:10:46

     It's just- it's one of those things, when you register for a new license, you kinda get registered for- to vote again, and you get a, a double registration. It- it's a, a chronic problem, and it, and it creates a constant cleanup problem for registrars, and it's a burden on them. My number two concern with elections is absentee voting. Absentee voting is the l- is the highest risk, the least secure wa- method of voting.

162. 1:11:19

     I would encourage you to try to find ways to encourage all voters, if possible, to vote in person. In person. Uh, not to- to withhold the ability to vote for someone who's disabled or very elderly or legitimately out of town, but please consider the, um, elimination of no-excuse absentee voting. And in line with absentee voting, uh, we passed a resolution yesterday to recommend, um, the discontinuation of drop boxes.

163. 1:11:59

     Drop boxes were brought into the state for the COVID-19 pandemic. We no longer have a COVID-19 pandemic. It's an additional burden on the election offices to, to follow, to document, to provide a chain of custody, to take care that all those ballots are brought down to d- brought to the office to be processed. So, uh, voters can, uh, return their ballots to the post- post office.

164. 1:12:32

     They have their mailbox right outside of their apartment or house. They, um, they can go to the election office and deliver their absentee by-mail ballot, um, or, or they can, uh, um, certainly choose to vote in person. And finally, the QR code. This is what's on your plate for this session and that's your, that's your challenge, and I'm going to leave that up to you, you to decide what to do about that.

165. 1:13:05

     But, um, it's July 1st is coming quickly, and, um, I would encourage you to tran- continue the transition to hand-marked paper ballots and use the opportunity, if possible, if you could get the cooperation of the secretary of state, to, to ha- to hold some of these small special elections between now and July using hand-marked paper ballots, um, to gain some experience and some, uh, perspective on how easy it is and how cost-effective it is and how the rest- most of the country uses that method.

166. 1:13:50

     In Georgia, there are 100 and about 110 to 20 counties that have one early voting site. Those counties have one place to early vote. All they need is to pre-print a, a, a calculated number of ballots and, um, and have those available at that one early voting site. There are only a few counties that have multiple early voting sites where ballot-on-demand printers would, would fill that need to produce ballots, uh, for d- for the early voting period.

167. 1:14:33

     That's your complicated period. And then for election day, pre-printed ballots are easy to use because they- they're supplied to the- the polling place.

168. 1:14:44

     All right. Well-

169. 1:14:45

     Okay

170. 1:14:45

     ... well, thank you all. I think we've got a few questions here. Um, I'll try to keep them in order. Mr. Wilt.

171. 1:14:53

     Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, ladies, for, for coming up. I really appreciate that. I had a couple of questions. The first one is, you filed an open records request in Cobb County looking for, um, the case that the lady referred to. Is that correct?

172. 1:15:08

     It has to be filed in my case you're talking about?

173. 1:15:10

     Yes, ma'am.

174. 1:15:11

     It has to be filed with the secretary of state's office because at that time, the secretary of state, uh, was the chair of the election board, and I'll never forget that hearing. It was in April of 2021, and it was by Zoom 'cause COVID.

175. 1:15:25

     Right.

176. 1:15:25

     And, uh, I, I was pretty indignant, and I started talking about redress of grievances, and I got disconnected, so I never had a hearing, and the case was just dismissed. So in order to get the records of that case, I was told that I had to file a- an open records request.

177. 1:15:40

     So you're saying you weren't nice like me? Um.

178. 1:15:43

     Not at that time.

179. 1:15:44

     So-

180. 1:15:44

     I've learned a lot

181. 1:15:45

     ... so did you-- So it has been filed?

182. 1:15:48

     Just filed

183. 1:15:48

     And, oh-

184. 1:15:49

     Just

185. 1:15:49

     ... re- how, how recently?

186. 1:15:51

     Uh, Friday maybe. Uh, just a couple of days ago.

187. 1:15:54

     So-

188. 1:15:54

     Yeah

189. 1:15:54

     ... oh, just a couple of days ago.

190. 1:15:56

     Yes.

191. 1:15:56

     Okay. So you should be r- receiving a response within the next day or-

192. 1:15:59

     Try 72 hours or so

193. 1:15:59

     ... yes, ma'am. So-

194. 1:16:00

     Uh, well, I still don't understand since the state election board, I mean, it's kind of irrelevant that I was a janq public then, but I'm on the board now, and as a board member, I can't get the record.

195. 1:16:10

     Well, and, and I think for, for, for purposes of caution, I can, I can appreciate the fact that when it happened in the case-

196. 1:16:18

     Correct

197. 1:16:18

     ... that you were not on the election board.

198. 1:16:19

     I understand.

199. 1:16:20

     So, so I can still... And it's always best that we err on the side of caution on some of those things, so I can appreciate that. And do you have a, uh, a number-

200. 1:16:28

     Yes

201. 1:16:28

     ... as far as when you were talking about budget that, that you needed appropriations to fully fund the elections board? Has a number been submitted-

202. 1:16:36

     Um, a-

203. 1:16:37

     ... uh, for appropriation?

204. 1:16:37

     A budget has been submitted.

205. 1:16:39

     And do you have any idea what that number is?

206. 1:16:41

     I think, um, Executive Director Mills, um, requested, uh, about $1.3 million budget.

207. 1:16:50

     Okay. Thank you, ladies. I-

208. 1:16:52

     Thank you

209. 1:16:52

     ... I appreciate y'all coming up today.

210. 1:16:54

     Thank you.

211. 1:16:54

     Thank you.

212. 1:16:54

     Lieutenant Jones.

213. 1:16:56

     Thank you. Uh, going back to the, um, resolution, we were talking about data breaches, but what I'm actually referencing is in this California case, United States versus Weber, specifically on page 18, where the DOJ acknowledges that they're allowing the Department of Homeland Security to use this information to actually look at people's, uh, verification as far as being a, a, a non-resident. If they're allowing people to... If they're allowing DHS to do that, it- they could allow other, um, agencies to also go into those same roles.

214. 1:17:29

     Does that give you any pause that it's being used as a subterfuge? That DOJ is saying we want it for voting records, but acknowledges we're actually allowing people to use it for other reasons.

215. 1:17:40

     So, um, I'm not familiar with the Ca- the California information that you're referenc- referencing. I think the basic point that we need to get back to is none of this would be necessary, our resolution would not be necessary, your resolution would not be necessary if the Secretary of State of the State of Georgia had been complying with law and keeping our voter rolls clean and doing his job and ensuring that we do not have illegal voting going on in the state.

216. 1:18:08

     So I under- I understand what you're, you're saying, but, but I'm asking you, it's in the case, there's no doubt the DOJ acknowledges that. I'm just asking-

217. 1:18:15

     I'll take your word for it. I'm just-

218. 1:18:16

     So I'm just asking, does that give you any pause that you're sending information up there-

219. 1:18:19

     It all gives me pause. It-

220. 1:18:20

     You're sending information up there that they're, they're acknowledging. We're giving it to this organization. They could give it, that others too.

221. 1:18:26

     I understand. I also don't like giving my information to Salesforce. I've used Salesforce at work. There's been proven breaches with Salesforce. Does that give you pause?

222. 1:18:36

     That's a breach. This is a situation where this, I'm giving it to the DOJ under the guise of supposedly cleaning up voting rolls, and when they're placed under oath, they say, "Well, you know what? You're right." We basically are using that as a subterfuge. It's, w- it's not a-

223. 1:18:50

     Do they say subterfuge?

224. 1:18:50

     ... this is not a breach. Well, if they admit that they're giving it to Department of Homeland Security, when they're basically saying that they're supposed to be using it for voting, and they admit under oath that they're giving it to Department of Homeland Security. That's my terminology, but that's exactly what's really going on. But-

225. 1:19:06

     I pre-

226. 1:19:06

     But-

227. 1:19:06

     Let me just-

228. 1:19:06

     But let's get back to, let's get to what you're saying about cleaning up the voter rolls. What makes Georgia's rolls unclean?

229. 1:19:13

     We have people, we have duplicate entries, um, for one thing, and we, we see it on the state election board.

230. 1:19:19

     Mm-hmm.

231. 1:19:20

     We have people that are registered more than once. We've had people... How many times, if I may ask Mr. Frazier? Mr. Frazier, how many times have you seen people registered?

232. 1:19:30

     Every time I look.

233. 1:19:31

     But, like-

234. 1:19:32

     Yeah

235. 1:19:32

     ... twice, three, four times.

236. 1:19:33

     Uh, the most was 11 times.

237. 1:19:36

     I would-

238. 1:19:36

     So he, you know, Mr. Frazier works on cleaning up voter rolls, and if we had clean voter rolls, like I said, it wouldn't be necessary. And we heard, uh, we heard cases yesterday, um, where sometimes there's errors, and I'll give you an example. My mother, um, who passed away a little over a year ago, um, required Medicaid services. And so, um, when you go onto the State of Georgia website and you have to sign up for Medicaid or whatever, it asks you, "Do you wanna register to vote?" I find that absurd.

239. 1:20:11

     And I'm sitting there and looking at that going, "Okay," like my mom's registered, and I'm like, so I ask the question, what happens if, as a daughter, I didn't know if I'm sitting there with her going through it or if she's elderly and she's doing it herself, and, you know, "Well, you know, I think I'm registered, but I'm not sure. How often do I have to do that? Do I need to do this every few years or whatever?" And you click register again. Guess what? That creates another voter ID number. And so guess what? That's potential for someone else to use that voter ID to vote.

240. 1:20:44

     How, how many registered voters do we have in Georgia?

241. 1:20:46

     I ha- I have no idea. Mr. Frazier, do you know?

242. 1:20:49

     Around 8 million. Oh, 8 million. 9 million. How many double registered voters do we have?

243. 1:20:53

     You know what-

244. 1:20:54

     How-

245. 1:20:54

     Let me, let me ask the Secretary of State.

246. 1:20:57

     I'm, I'm asking you, ma'am. Thank you.

247. 1:20:59

     Uh-

248. 1:20:59

     I'm not the Secretary of State-

249. 1:21:01

     Yeah

250. 1:21:01

     ... and I'm not responsible for that.

251. 1:21:03

     We've got a few more questions here, Mr. Leader. Um, Chairman Burns.

252. 1:21:10

     Thank you. Uh, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, thank you, ladies. I appreciate your service on the state election board. Um, it is a thankless task. And you, uh-

253. 1:21:18

     That's an understatement.

254. 1:21:18

     We're having fun.

255. 1:21:19

     And you endure it well. Thank you, and, uh, especially Dr. Johnson, uh, you've been there a while. I'm grateful for that. And I, I, I appreciate Ms. Grubbs joining this, this, this, uh, opportunity. Um, a couple of questions and then a, a little bit of history. Um, complaint resolution. So how many outstanding complaints are you currently trying to resolve?

256. 1:21:45

     Well, that's a good question because the Secretary of State investigators hold the investigations, and we don't know how many there are.

257. 1:21:52

     So you do not know how many- open investigations there are. Is that correct?

258. 1:21:56

     That's correct.

259. 1:21:57

     So y- y- you cannot address those concerns that are concerns submitted by citizens in a timely manner. Is that, is that not true?

260. 1:22:07

     We've had people die before we hear their complaints.

261. 1:22:09

     Let me say, I made a complaint, and it took two years to have my complaint resolved with the, through the State Election Board process, through the Secretary of State's process using the, uh, the voter fraud thing. Um,

262. 1:22:28

     I appreciate your input on, uh, trying to provide some uniformity to local election boards. They've kind of evolved over the decades, and, um, it, it seemed to be the, the, uh, plan of the day to, to kinda adopt new ones. We did, uh, do some, uh, consistency when we, uh, moved a magistrate- removed magistrate's judges-

263. 1:22:51

     Mm-hmm

264. 1:22:52

     ... from, from that. Let, let me, um, let me suggest that I have a concern with the Secretary of State not coming to this committee, and I do appreciate him showing up at Appropriations Committee yesterday. It's the first time I've seen him in six years, but I'm glad he made it yesterday. Uh, he chose not to make it today. I wanna, I wanna do a quick history lesson. SB 189. SB 189 was a bill that I proposed in 2023.

265. 1:23:22

     If I understand it correctly, it's now 2026. Is that right? So in February the 15th of 2023, I submitted SB 189, which Section 7 of SB 189 called for the elimination of QR codes from ballots in Georgia. Is that not true?

266. 1:23:40

     That's true.

267. 1:23:40

     So 189 said get rid of QR codes, and we negotiated at that time with the Secretary of State's office to defer the implementation of that until July the 1st of '26. I'd be glad to read Section 7 of Senate Bill 189, but at the end of the day, the Secretary of State has had three years to address the elimination of QR codes from ballots in Georgia, and he has, to my knowledge, m- made no reasonable attempt to do that.

268. 1:24:15

     Have you seen any attempt on his part to eliminate QR codes?

269. 1:24:19

     I've, I have seen or heard of no action taken to eliminate QR codes.

270. 1:24:24

     He has not requested any resources. He has not presented any plan.

271. 1:24:32

     I think that's-

272. 1:24:32

     The only thing he has asked for is to ignore the law. The governor signed the bill on July, on, um, July, excuse me, May the 6th of 2024. So the, the governor signed SB 189 into Georgia law on May the 6th of 2024. It is now January of 2026, and the Secretary of State is not following Georgia law. What he wants this body to do, the legislature to do, is to provide him an extension so that he doesn't have to follow the law until he is no longer Secretary of State, and I have that-- I have a problem with that.

273. 1:25:15

     So my question is, if there's a question in this soliloquy, my question is, how do I get the Secretary of State to follow the law?

274. 1:25:28

     Is that a rhetorical question?

275. 1:25:30

     It is.

276. 1:25:31

     I think he did make one, uh, move or request, and that was for $66 million to upgrade the equipment so that, uh, he could remove the QR code perhaps and provide some other, um, alternative, but I'm unclear with that. All, all I remember is six- $66 million, which sounded like a pretty steep price tag, uh, for an upgrade of the machines, and I'm not sure you...

277. 1:26:03

     It's, it's sort of like buying a whole system again.

278. 1:26:06

     I, I, I would agree. I, I would suggest that your suggestion for hand-marked ballots that are, that are, uh, tabulated utilizing a current tabulation system that provides us with the image of the ballot as well as the ability to do effective audits would be a much less expensive alternative.

279. 1:26:26

     Senator Burns, may I offer that there's also the ability to do fast-track leg- legislation? Because I don't know that any amount of pressure, clearly, if there's an invitation to come to a, an Senate ethics, uh, meeting, which I think is, ranks pretty high up there. I mean, I have to admit, I was a bit nervous coming in.

280. 1:26:43

     Oh, no.

281. 1:26:43

     Um, but I would think that, uh, that it is in your hands to get legislation passed. And let me also talk about, mention one other thing, and that is conflicts of interest, because it is strange to me that the elephant in the room is the fact that the secretary is also running for governor, and it's very weird to me that there's absolutely no effort to change the way that we're voting, considering the fact that he is the chief elections officer in the state and also running for higher office.

282. 1:27:15

     Does that, does that worry anyone? So I would think it would be in the interest of the State of Georgia to, uh, to vote with hand-marked paper ballots and to ensure... And, and the conflict of interest is also with enhanced voting. You have enhanced voting who is taking care of, um, our election night reporting, and yet they're the ones performing the OCR audit. They are auditing their own work. How does that make sense?

283. 1:27:43

     I, I, I appreciate your input, and, and I, uh, acknowledge the fact that, uh, uh, with, uh, with, with la- the lack of action on the part of the secretary of state, the legislature, the legislature's gonna have to take the lead yet again. To make sure that we have safe, secure elections in November of 2026. And I'm committed to do that. My colleagues in the Senate are committed to do that. My colleagues in the House are committed to do that. And, um, we'll see how it works out. Thank you for your-

284. 1:28:11

     All right. A few more. We got to-- Some of us have a long drive today.

285. 1:28:15

     Oh, yeah. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

286. 1:28:17

     Madam Senator.

287. 1:28:18

     I appreciate it. Just a, a few, um, questions and, and just points of information. Uh, I actually had a phone call today with my own county about concerns about, um, this unfunded mandate to remove the QR codes. I believe you gave us a number around sixty-six million dollars that it would cost to remove QR codes. Is it not true that if the legislator does not-- legislature does not appropriate those funds, that those-- that cost goes back on the counties themselves?

288. 1:28:49

     No. Who will pay f- If the legislature does not appropriate funds to update the system to remove the QR code, then who will pay for it?

289. 1:29:01

     If, if I may, Mr. Chairman.

290. 1:29:02

     Go ahead.

291. 1:29:03

     Um, the secretary has not made a formal request for any alternative system of providing, uh, elections without QR codes. He has made his request to the public, not to the legislature. So at this point in time, the only request he's made is five million dollar request for a hand recount and one point eight million dollars for an OCR verification audit, which was misrepresented in our budget books 'cause it said, uh, it was a tabulation count.

292. 1:29:36

     It's not. It's a verification count. By the way, that system, the QR code or the, uh, OCR character recognition system, is not certified by EO- EO- EOCAC?

293. 1:29:48

     EAC.

294. 1:29:48

     EAC. Uh, at-- Too many acronyms. But at the end of the day, the secretary has failed in leadership. He's failed to provide a reasonable proposal to follow Georgia law.

295. 1:30:01

     Mr. Chairman, if you may. Uh, to be clear, I'm not here to cap for anybody, um, particularly not the secretary of state. I'm not here to defend him. But I am here to ask good, reasonable questions, and I would like to know if this legislature, if this body, along with the House and the governor's signature, if we do not appropriate the funds required and necessary to remove the QR code, who pays for it? Does it not fall on the backs of my counties, your counties, a hundred and fifty-nine counties? Is that not true?

296. 1:30:32

     If we were not to do our job, I would agree with you. I would also suggest that we will do our job in spite of the secretary's lack of action.

297. 1:30:43

     But-

298. 1:30:44

     Senator Jackson, may I also a- offer the fact that, um, you have backup balloting-

299. 1:30:50

     Is this legal?

300. 1:30:50

     ... processes.

301. 1:30:52

     Yep.

302. 1:30:52

     I, I, I just-

303. 1:30:53

     Well-

304. 1:30:53

     The witness is questioning the senators?

305. 1:30:55

     I was just-

306. 1:30:56

     I, I just have another- That's not probably your regular ... another question, if I may.

307. 1:30:59

     Okay, go ahead.

308. 1:31:00

     All right.

309. 1:31:00

     We got several more here.

310. 1:31:01

     Uh, yeah, I understand. Um, so also I just want to follow up. Um, you have both have spoken to Ms. Grubbs, and Ms. um, Johnson has spoken about the Secretary of State's investigators not providing you all with information that you would need. Um, but early in your testimony, Ms. Grubbs, you spoke to the fact that there are one point five investigators allocated to the SEB. Um, so I understand you, you were just appointed. I got your lovely email. So- ... you may not be able to answer the question given you've on- been on board for only three weeks, but perhaps you can. Can you tell us what are your investigators doing with their time?

311. 1:31:34

     What are they discovering? Are you getting, um, content? Are you able to get kind of a view into the complaints from your own investigators that the state has allotted to you?

312. 1:31:45

     So our investigators have, uh, been on board for a year, and, um, they have spent the time implementing a case management software program that we would really love to have help with so that we may track new cases and the, uh, and the status of and provide that, uh, for, not only for the State Election Board, but hopefully for the public, that they, that people can check if they s- filed a complaint and a case number was assigned, that they could go online and check the status of that.

313. 1:32:16

     Or if a case has been completed and closed, that they could pull that up and see the summary of the, of the complaint. So we're excited about that. Uh, they've also assisted in, um, preparing, uh, the meetings that we've had and reviewing the cases that the secretary of state investigators, um, have, um, presented to us to as- assist in, in that, um, meeting process. But at the same time, the secretary of state decided that their investigators would no longer come to the meetings to present the cases.

314. 1:32:55

     So it sort of put, um, a, a whole new perspective on how we present these cases. We only can use the, um, summary of investigation and the report of investigation written by the secretary of state investigators, and we have to act upon that based on that information and the responses of the respondent and the complainants that come to the meetings.

315. 1:33:20

     Right. So I just want to make sure I understood the answer to your question. So you have two investigators that work for the SEB who have spent a year not doing investigations, but instead working on software and preparing your meetings. Is-- Am I understanding-- Is that what your testimony is saying?

316. 1:33:34

     No, no. What you need to understand is the secretary of state will not allow our investigators to, to investigate. They will not allow our investigators to have the files of investigations, and they will not, um, bring the inve- our investigators in under their, um, designation of having post-certified investigators. So they, they also will not let our investigators, um, access JARVSS, the voter registration system for investigation, or any other files in the secretary of state's office.

317. 1:34:11

     So they're very limited.

318. 1:34:12

     And this is my last question, if I may, Ms., um, Mr. Chairman. Um, you mentioned that there are many, many cases of cross-state voting, um, due to our voting rolls not being, um, kept clean despite our enrollment in ERIC, all of the bilateral, um, agreements that we have that were referenced before, despite the fact that people from my own party have sued the secretary of state multiple times for cleaning the rolls too often. Um, but you've said that there are many cases of cross-state voting. Can you quantify that?

319. 1:34:42

     What is many? How many cases of cross-state voting, uh, do you estimate there happening in, in our state?

320. 1:34:51

     Uh, there are, I would say, allegations of cross-state vot- voting, and I would have to research that, uh, to give you an, an exact answer on that. But I can share with the group that just last week we received a package from the Department of Justice for, for 10 possible cross-state voters. They sent a package to us to investigate, and all 10 of, of these voters were from Georgia and voted in Georgia and possibly another state.

321. 1:35:21

     Well, I hope our investigators that you have on SEB might be able to do their work perhaps.

322. 1:35:25

     Well, if they could access Jarvis, it would be great.

323. 1:35:28

     All right. Uh, Mr. Leader, number 14.

324. 1:35:31

     Yeah, just really brief question. Just clarity, something Senator Burns was asking in the back and forth. So just so you're saying that n- no one knows or the secretary won't disclose the overall number of investigations, just like if we call the sheriff's office, the police department, uh, like there's no tally of how many open cases or anything else in terms of transparency, just like Keystone COPS would have that, you know, is provided easily to the public, to the media.

325. 1:36:05

     Uh, no offense, Senator Robertson. But, um But I mean, that just to me is astonishing that even on back of the napkin math that, I mean, even some of my police officers in my community could do in their sleep. I mean, there, that doesn't exist or won't be disclosed?

326. 1:36:23

     Well, how-- A little of the story of how this evolved was we started hearing news media articles and newspaper articles about the backlog of, um, State Election Board cases. And, um, when I quizzed the AJC reporter about his source and how did he know, because we did not know how many cases there were backlog of cases, um, then, um, we sort of came to a maybe a showdown, if you might call it that.

327. 1:36:55

     And, um, the secretary of state at that point provided us with 250 completed investigations. And, um, so that was a big step in us unders-- in the State Election Board understanding at least some scope of, of the whole, whole problem or issue. And, um, but there we have still did not know how many active investigations were taking place. And since that first file of 250 in October was provided to us, we've asked if there are any more completed investigations, which we're not sure about.

328. 1:37:33

     The communication is, um, not always very prompt. Uh, but we, we did receive-- We heard some number like 75, um, but we're, we're not real sure and w- we-- but we did get s- some cases and we're just not sure if they're open, active or, um, open completed. Uh, but I will share with you by the February meeting we have on the agenda the completed cases and we will have-- and if we've are able to have follow that agenda for the February meeting, we will have heard all of the completed cases that have been provided to us.

329. 1:38:13

     But so you're saying provided to us-

330. 1:38:15

     So-

331. 1:38:15

     ... but you don't know if there was others.

332. 1:38:16

     But I-- We don't know what we don't know. Correct.

333. 1:38:19

     Right. So there, so there's a lack of transparency that maybe we would find in other aspects of government. And the only thing I would ask is, you know, I don't know if that's a legislative policy opportunity or whatever. I think, um, my dear friend from Atlanta that said earlier that we should have hours and hours of hearings and everything else for transparency when we're debating this resolution. Um, I mean, if that's true, maybe that's a, that's an opportunity, uh, uh, to my dear friend, the minority leader, to, you know, require transparency as it relates to what is the number of active investigations, what is the active-- what is, you know, what does that look like to bring some sort of semblance and, um, you know, uh, facts kind of back to it?

334. 1:39:01

     Not necessarily, you know, I think Senator Robertson would say we don't need to know the, you know, the details of an open and active investigation. I mean, those things that would be inappropriate. But I think at least some level of data to the public that if Senator Burns is firing-- filing a, a complaint and doesn't hear anything for two years, um, you know. I mean, that's like somebody robbing my house and calling the sheriff and saying, "Hey, you know, we'll get back to you." You know, they'll say, "Hey, we'll get back to you in two years." I mean, that's completely unacceptable if these are investigators who, um, you know, have, are, are given special powers to investigate and in some cases like some of our other constitutional officers lock people up and put them in jail.

335. 1:39:41

     So, um, I think that's a, that's a concern and, and maybe an opportunity so we really truly kn- we truly know the veracity of, um, you know, what's going on. That's all. Thank you.

336. 1:39:52

     I will share. Share with you that last week Executive Director Mills, uh, received a file of I, I think it was 75 or so cases. I'm just, uh, I'm not sure. He wasn't clear if they were still an investigation or completed.

337. 1:40:10

     Yeah. I, I, I'm just gonna reiterate not to beat a dead horse here, but, um, you know, the, the-- in this entire thing, whether it's Republicans or the minority party or, or the secretary of state if he even exists since he's not here , um, you know, there, there's all this, you know, we, we, we think we know or we may know or whatever. The data is the data and the facts are the facts. It's either one case or 100 cases. Um, I mean, we, we need to get to that level, and I think regardless of whether, you know, they're, you know, kind of for people in this state or for your position or, you know, as, as respectfully to my friend Senator Jackson, or if there's things like maybe she disagrees with others.

338. 1:40:56

     I think at the end of the day, I think we want the facts, and we want to know what are those numbers. Um, and I think it makes it really hard to legislate and come up with, you know, sound great, awesome public policy if we're not gonna have those numbers to, I think, make these decisions. So, um, again, I, I, I am, you know, I, I've sat in the appropriations meetings when, uh, the secretary has decided to, to blow off the legislature in the past. Um, I don't think that's appropriate. If you're a constitutional officer, you shouldn't be running for the hills and afraid to answer questions.

339. 1:41:29

     I go back to West Georgia, and Ms. Grubbs knows this. I'm not afraid to have a debate in public with anybody. I don't care where you're from, what you look like, whether you grew up there or not. That's why we got elected, and that's what we should do. Um, and I hope that, you know, the people wanting to run for higher office, uh, trying to be political, um, because they want to have it their way, will, will listen to the citizens regardless of whether they're from my party or, um, the minority party. I think they should stand up and answer the questions or at least provide the facts, and if they can't, they should either just admit it or go find some other hobby to take up.

340. 1:42:03

     Chairman Harbin.

341. 1:42:05

     Yes, sir. Thank you, and I'll keep this short. I want to thank you ladies for your efforts and for your work. Um, it's, it's, it's not very thankful. You don't get many thank you notes probably from people around the state. First of all, I want to say this. To get rid of the drop boxes, we need to get rid of them as quickly as possible. There's no sense in carrying on that and the requirements of that are going on and all that goes on. And I think that's something we need to take on as a, as a, as a body. I think it's a shame that you vote and it's a QR code, and you can't tell what you voted on. That is absolutely an atrocity.

342. 1:42:36

     It's something that we need to deal with, and we need to deal with it quickly. We have technology today that didn't exist five and six years ago on the optical scanning capability that is so far a- advanced that to tell me that you can't read a ballot, I'm sorry, you'll lie about other things as far as that portion. I think the Secretary of State to fail to have a representative here, we need to play that on a commercial for the people running against him for governor. I will say this of our current governor. I have text him or, or called him. He has been responsive each and every time, and I want to thank Governor Kemp for being responsible to the people of this state.

343. 1:43:11

     It bothers me that when a constitutional officer blows off or whatever, at least have a representative represent you at a Senate hearing, and I think it's a total disregard for this legislative body. Maybe the Appropriations Committee needs to just put his budget at zero until he ti- decides to come to a meeting. I'm sorry, but if you were in business, we would fire you. We're government. We're gonna elect you as governor. I don't think so. I just think this. We need to be responsible to the people because this, the people, th- they created the government.

344. 1:43:43

     The government did not create the people, and we need to serve the people of Georgia appropriately. And I thank you for all that y'all do and for the battles that you put up. Thank you very much.

345. 1:43:54

     Vice Chair Williams.

346. 1:43:55

     My turn.

347. 1:43:59

     Make him preach, man.

348. 1:44:01

     In 1999, I became chief registrar of Baldwin County under Secretary of State Lewis Massey. Served under Lewis Massey, Cathy Cox, Karen Handel, Brian Kemp, and, uh, then I made the big jump. But anyway, we've had paper ballots for many, many years. You know what they're called? Absentee ballots.

349. 1:44:25

     That's right.

350. 1:44:26

     We used to scan those things with the Optiscan. This was back in 1999, 2000. Those elections sometimes would be won by one vote, and they would be challenged, and there would be a recount, and we came up with the same darn number. They're accurate. This was before this. The technology now is so surpassed, it's just amazing what, uh, fellow senator was talking about the Optiscan.

351. 1:44:59

     Senate Bill 189, I think I made an amendment to that, uh, offered an amendment to that bill to do away with drop boxes.

352. 1:45:08

     You did.

353. 1:45:08

     Um, so anyway, we're still, still trying to get them done. Uh, you have the Bible on your desk. What edition, year edition is that?

354. 1:45:18

     This is the most recent edition.

355. 1:45:21

     2024.

356. 1:45:22

     Excuse me. This is 2024.

357. 1:45:24

     2024.

358. 1:45:25

     Yes, sir.

359. 1:45:26

     Uh, that's the state election code, you know, and when I was appointed, um, to, as chief registrar and the members of my board, we were not Republicans or Democrats. We were interpreting the codes and the laws of the State of Georgia. It had nothing to do with party. There's not a section of that book that refers to Republicans, and there's not a section of that book that repu- refers to Democrats.

360. 1:45:56

     It refers to the election, how it's going to be carried out lawfully, legally, and how, what votes are gonna be counted, and, and what you will do to comply with the elections. And that's, you know, the parties when, if anything, the board members and the board I stay in contact with that I left, they're not bipartisan. They all tell me they're nonpartisan.

361. 1:46:27

     And that's how they really feel because they're not picking and choosing winners. They're following the law, and that's what we expect everyone to do. We're expected to follow the law. I'll get stopped speeding on my way home probably tonight, and I'll be- ... and I will be, you know, guilty. But anyway, uh- Thank you. Anyway, thank y'all. Appreciate your work.

362. 1:46:54

     Thank you.

363. 1:46:54

     Last, last, last one, and we're gonna close this thing down. Mr. Leader, is that you? You got a-

364. 1:46:59

     Yeah

365. 1:46:59

     ... comment, question?

366. 1:46:59

     It was just a quick comment just to s- let everybody know. I mean, we can go to the issue about the backlog investigations. I, I don't know about that, but you can actually go to the Georgia Secretary of State website, and there's a transcription of all y'all's meetings where you actually have the hearings where you have these complaints, and that goes back from 2025 all the way down to 2007. So when we talk about transparency, there is, there is there, and persons can actually go read every single complaint. They can read what the investigator says. They can read what the Board of Election says, and it's interesting reading.

367. 1:47:31

     But I would do wanna say as far as transparency is concerned, it is there, and y'all have an opportunity to read. And also, it'll give you an opportunity to understand what actual kind of complaints are actually filed in the State of Georgia. They're, they're very interesting kind of complaints.

368. 1:47:46

     They are, aren't they? Thank you so much. Yeah.

369. 1:47:48

     All right. Oh, all right. I said that was the last one, but the leader-

370. 1:47:51

     Well, just-

371. 1:47:51

     ... on the other side wants to say something.

372. 1:47:52

     No, I mean, no, 'cause I mean, Senator Jones brings up a, a great... I mean, it's actually, he's right. I mean, that's a great point, but I think for those that, um, you know, to, to kind of cut to the chase in layman's terms and maybe they need a AI button on the SOS website or something just to summarize some of these meetings, especially if they're having an 11-hour meeting. I mean, let's... You know, I mean, I think that's part of it, but I also think, too, um, at least under, you know, the current SOS, um, you know, are, are, what about the meetings that may s- maybe don't necessarily show up, whether it's at this meeting or maybe some others?

373. 1:48:29

     I mean, there's other meetings I'm sure they're doing that lead to potential investigations or other things. But I think whatever can be done to make that easier for the public, I mean, I do agree with you, Senator. Um, I, I do think that is a tremendous opportunity for both sides to kind of figure out, um, so people know that, you know, when w- we're, we're putting numbers out here in public or anywhere else, th- those are the facts. And I think that is a very easy question if you wanted a, if the secretary was here and wanted a layup, um, I think he, he, you know, probably would've got maybe a unanimous vote from all of us in, in trying to solve that problem.

374. 1:49:06

     But since he wasn't here, um, you know, I guess he'll keep sitting on the bench.

375. 1:49:11

     Yep. All right. Th- yeah. Thank you all for being here.

376. 1:49:17

     Thank you very much.

377. 1:49:18

     Thank you for, for your service and for all the hard work that you do. Thank you members of the committee for staying late for this meeting and appreciate all of that. And just in reference to funding on Senate Bill 189, our, uh, commissioner of agriculture was in a meeting on Tuesday, and he was requesting additional funds for his department because that's what the state of our agriculture needed to do better and improve. And he made that request to us, but we didn't hear that yesterday from the secretary of state.

378. 1:49:48

     So, uh, thank you, members. Y'all be safe going home and be safe this weekend, and thank y'all.