Comité Energy, Utilities & Telecommunications de la Cámara de Representantes, 10 de febrero de 2026

Transcripción

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1. 0:17:13

   There. All right, we're gonna go ahead and, uh, get this meeting started. House Energy, Utilities, and Telecommunications Committee. Uh, and, uh, Representative Dawson, would you, uh, have a prayer for the committee?

2. 0:17:27

   Sure, sure. Let's bow our heads. Let's bow, bow our heads. Dear Heavenly Father, thank you for gathering us here today to do the people's work. P- please gather our steps, our actions, and our thoughts as we work on the behalf of the citizens. We ask all this in your Son, Jesus' name. Amen.

3. 0:17:45

   Amen. Thank you. All right, we have, uh, we thought we had two bills, but we just have one. Um, we have, uh, Representative Lim. You wanna come up and present, uh, what's the bill number?

4. 0:17:59

   Uh, 6, 641.

5. 0:18:00

   House Bill 641. If you'll present, you can present there. Yeah.

6. 0:18:06

   I'll hold your hand.

7. 0:18:07

   Thank you. Thank you very much.

8. 0:18:08

   And this is a hearing, by the way.

9. 0:18:14

   Thank you, Mr. Chair and the committee. I am here to present House Bill 641. We are working off the original, which is LC550548, and this is a bill regarding utility, electric utility disconnections for people with serious illnesses who need the electricity to live. So just setting the stage a little bit, since November 27th, 1979, or nearly 50 years, the Public Service Commission has had a rule in place requiring PSE-regulated utilities to keep the utilities on of someone with a serious illness if that illness would be aggravated by a discontinuation.

10. 0:18:54

    That rule specifically is Georgia Rule 515-3-2.03. Excuse me for being a lawyer, I guess. This, I have this here, and you'll see that's been effective since November 27, 1979. It currently states that if a residential customer has such an illness, they must provide notice to their utility, and within 10 days of that notice, provide to the utility a physician, county board of health, hospital, or other medical clinic's written statement explicitly doing three things, all of which they must do.

11. 0:19:24

    One, identify the illness. Two, state how long the illness is expected to last. Three, certify that the illness would in fact be aggravated by a discontinuation. If all of those requirements are met, that utility delays disconnection for the shorter, the shorter of either the length of the illness or one month from the initial notice, which at that point could be as short as 20 days. As I mentioned, this rule has been in place for a long time, again, nearly 50 years. What HB 641 seeks to do is to have this exact same rule apply, and by exact, I mean a word for word plagiarism or copy of Georgia Rule 515, specifically to all electric utilities in Georgia, including, um, EMCs and MEAGs that are not PSE regulated.

12. 0:20:09

    Here I will state, uh, I think it's important, that I'm quite appreciative of my EMC. Shout out to Jackson EMC. They ably serve parts of my unincorporated territory and have been helpful to constituents facing similar and other challenges. Some EMCs and MEAGs, without any requirement to hold off disconnection for even one day, go above and beyond those 30 days, and this would not impact them. The need to, to me, for uniformity in establishing at least a floor, 'cause I'm seeing this as a floor, is underlined by other cases we've seen, and I will briefly point to one.

13. 0:20:42

    That is Ms. Tina Matson, a constituent of Representative Mathiak, who is the second signer on this bill. Ms. Matson, who is here to testify, has a left ventricular assist device, or LVAD, um, and that is a cardiac pump for patients who are experiencing end-stage heart failure. We actually met a year ago last February, so this month, at an American Heart Association event with which we work very closely. We, um, at the, as this committee, I think, can appreciate, people already in these conditions may face challenges that take them away from work and require them to navigate a complex, often costly healthcare system.

14. 0:21:17

    Now, in her case, that was exacerbated because her municipal utility provider combines all utilities, electric and non-electric, into a single bill, which meant that her inability to pay trash, uh, fees meant getting her electric power cut off. Ms. Matson very infamously faced a collections call while in the back of an ambulance, so I will allow her, of course, to tell her own story. So on the one hand, I wanna be clear, Ms. Matson is not the only one in Georgia who's faced this scenario. I will also give a shout-out to ANF for their coverage of these issues and others who have faced similar circumstances.

15. 0:21:50

    That's why this bill is, uh, necessary. That's why it exists. On the other hand, I also do want to be clear that it is truly addressing only the direst of circumstances, and even then, for a short month or less period. I can attest that, um, Georgia Power and other non-electric but PSE-regulated utilities like Gas Health, they not only must comply with this existing rule, they actually do in practice, um, showing that it works. I can also attest by my own research, and I know, um, EMCs are here, that, uh, most if not all MC- EMCs do have policies in place to deal with these situations, and I can certainly understand their desire to set their own policies by their own governance.

16. 0:22:31

    Um, and like I said, but I think it bears repeating, many if not all of them already do something similar anyway. Ultimately, I would proffer that taking a rule word for word that's existed for nearly half a century, a rule with plenty of its own requirements and safeguards, and using that as the floor would be beneficial, yes, to a few, but the most critical, uh, direst scenarios. That's, again, the purpose of this bill, um, so I will stop there. Thank you to Mr. Chair and the committee for, for hearing it and bringing some light to this, uh, this issue.

17. 0:23:00

    Okay. Appreciate the, uh, presentation. Any members of the committee have, uh, questions of the presenter, of the author of the bill? Uh, anybody? Don't see any. Um- I don't see any questions for you, so w- the, the, your person signed up, uh, Ms. Marsden, is that correct? Is she here? Oh, yes. You can come on up.

18. 0:23:26

    I was just wondering should I just leave?

19. 0:23:28

    You can

20. 0:23:46

    come up.

21. 0:23:55

    Sure. Thank you.

22. 0:23:55

    You're welcome. Okay, for now.

23. 0:23:57

    Okay, Ms. Marsden, we recognize you can tell us why you believe, uh, I, I believe you're, I believe you're speaking in favor of the bill. Is that correct?

24. 0:24:04

    That is correct.

25. 0:24:05

    And you can tell us why you're in favor of the bill.

26. 0:24:06

    Okay. Can you hear me? Okay. Thank you for allowing me to speak today. Um, I'm sorry. You have to bear with me. My breathing's a little short today. Um,

27. 0:24:25

    My name is Tina Marie Marsden. I was diagnosed with pregnancy induced heart failure at the age of 20 fa- uh, 20- 28. As my condition worsen, I receive an LVAD to sustain life. And for those of you that aren't familiar with an LVAD, I have a pump that's attached to my heart, and I have a controller and two batteries, um, that are connected to a drive line that comes out my stomach. Um, so this requires power. Um, I always have to have two batteries.

28. 0:24:56

    Um, there's a charging base for these. Um, also in the event that something happens with my batteries, I can plug myself to the wall. So it's imperative that I have power, um, to sustain life. Um, this right here, um, my condition unfortunately is worsening. I just spent almost the last two months in the hospital, so I also have a PICC line at this time. Um, after moving to Griffin, I would be told by representatives of Griffin Utilities that they did not have protections for individuals who rely on power to sustain life.

29. 0:25:32

    Um, the City of Griffin, as Representative Lim has stated, combines your, your water, your trash, and your util- and your electricity into one bill. So even if you pay a majority of your bill, the customer has no control over how that's allocated. And I'll give you an example. Um, I had a bill that was over $300. I paid all with the exception of $75. Went on their website, set up a payment arrangement, and they disconnected my power three days before that scheduled payment.

30. 0:26:03

    And I called them and they said, "Well, we don't recognize payment arrangements when your account's already past due." I said, "Well, your system shouldn't allow me to do that. But considering I've already paid the majority of the bill, and I'm scheduled to pay you in three days, can you allow me those three days? Or let me see if I can just go ahead and get that $75." "Oh, well, no, now you have to pay $150." Because they want reconnect fees. There's additional fees. I'm like, "If you already know I need power to live, and if I already was having problems paying you $75, how is adding additional fees gonna help me?" Um, in Spalding County, depending on where you live, um, there's three utility providers.

31. 0:26:45

    You can have an EMC, you can have Griffin Utilities, or you can have Georgia Power. As we all know, um, Georgia Power does offer those protections to their customers where they have up to 30 days where they can postpone disconnection. Um, that can be extended for an additional 30 days, so up to 60 days annually. It shouldn't depend on where I live if I have protections. There should be some uniformity, as Representative Lim spoke about. You know, all Georgians should have this protection.

32. 0:27:16

    This doesn't mean that city utilities or EMCs are gonna be regulated, 'cause as we know, they're not regulated by the PSC. This is just saying, hey, we, we, we feel that everyone should have these protections. They should not have to risk losing power, which can ultimately risk you losing your life just because you live five miles down the road. That, that shouldn't be happening. Um, oh, I'm sorry.

33. 0:27:47

    You're good. Thank you. Even... Okay. Even just being here, I've met so many people, um, who are home bound, um, who can't, you know, speak, can't go to... I go to almost every city commission meeting that I can go to. I speak when I need to speak. Um, sometimes when I can't attend in person, I'll, I'll watch online. But everybody's not able to do that. Ev- everybody doesn't know what to say, know who to go to, or is even physically able to do so.

34. 0:28:17

    Um, that doesn't mean that we shouldn't be looking out for these individuals. I've had people tell me, "Why don't you just move?" And I say, "Well, at this rate, I would have to do research on who the utility provider is just to move somewhere that's within my means." And I shouldn't have to do that. But even if I move, that doesn't change what's happening to other people. Like, just because I leave, that doesn't mean I'm supposed to stop caring. Like, we have to do better. Um, just the fact that Georgia Power customers have these protections, um, it just makes sense.

35. 0:28:53

    Um, it's just, it just makes sense to make sure that everybody has this. And I think one thing that I, one thing I ran into when speaking with representatives in Griffin, um, I was told people just don't wanna pay their bill. That's not the case. I just got out the hospital. Um, I have cardiac rehab. I have home healthcare now. Um, I'm traveling to Vanderbilt once a month, um, to be a part of their heart transplant program.

36. 0:29:23

    So there's additional expenses that come with having a chronic illness, unexpected expenses, where you may need to be able to call your utility provider and say, "Hey, can I get an extension this month? Can you postpone disconnection this month?" Um, because your health is affecting your household finances. That happens. Um, but I, I think that's not being considered. This is not about not paying bills. This is about having sensible policies in place that people not, are not at risk of losing their life just because we don't have uniformity across the state for all Georgians.

37. 0:30:00

    Thank you.

38. 0:30:02

    Thank you. Any, uh, any questions from members of the committee? I wanted to ask, I don't see any, but I wanted to ask, did you, uh, did you get in touch with anybody, uh, a- and what is the utility again?

39. 0:30:15

    Griffin Utilities.

40. 0:30:16

    Griffin?

41. 0:30:17

    Uh-huh.

42. 0:30:17

    Did you get in touch with anybody there b- uh, beside just the, uh, customer representative or somebody like that?

43. 0:30:22

    Oh, yeah. I spoke to, um, their ut- their electric director. I've spoken to the mayor, all the city commissioners. Um, what was surprising was that, um, if you, if any of you have heard that interview or seen that interview with, um, um, ANF, where I was in the back of the ambulance, um, that was in 2021, and they were telling me they don't have any policies in place. They did have a policy. It was very limited, but they had something in place.

44. 0:30:54

    Even their city attorney responded to me. They weren't aware of their own policy. So I, I had to ask for a copy of the customer service handbook in order to get the b- book and to see that. But their policy was, um, in Griffin, customers, all customers have a seven-day grace period, so once their bill is late, they have seven days to pay it before disconnection. So if you need a power to live, you got one extra day, months for the life of service.

45. 0:31:26

    Okay.

46. 0:31:27

    That was it. No, I'm, I'm correct. I need to be c- I'm cor- I need to correct that. It was one week. You got seven days. As I advocated to improve that, they changed it. They took that one week away and said, "We're gonna give you one extra day every month." So you get eight days, but everybody else gets seven. But then that's not even information that's relayed to the public. But it was really surprising to me that they didn't know their own policies. Um, I say you're, you're, you're playing with people's lives.

47. 0:32:01

    The chair want to clarify something, uh, that you'd said. I mean, you, you basically clarified it, and I think everybody here understands it, but these things are, are telecast or webcast or something, so somebody may not. Um, I know that you un- you understood what you were saying, and you were correct. But you said there you could have Georgia Power, you could have an EMC, or you could have y-

48. 0:32:23

    Mm-hmm

49. 0:32:23

    ... and I know what you meant, but, uh, but as you, I think, tried to clarify, uh, it really, you can't really just have that. It depends, uh, because of the, um, Territorial Act-

50. 0:32:35

    Yeah, where you live

51. 0:32:36

    ... in certain areas. I mean, you-

52. 0:32:36

    Yeah

53. 0:32:36

    ... I mean, I know you know that, and you-

54. 0:32:37

    Yeah

55. 0:32:38

    ... clarified, but just-

56. 0:32:38

    Yeah

57. 0:32:38

    ... so that somebody online-

58. 0:32:40

    Hears that

59. 0:32:41

    ... I'm sure a lot of people don't understand

60. 0:32:41

    Yeah. You don't have a choice based on where you live.

61. 0:32:44

    Yeah. Right.

62. 0:32:44

    Yeah. Based on where you live in Spalding County, you may have one of the three.

63. 0:32:49

    Mm-hmm.

64. 0:32:49

    Um, but protections and shouldn't be based on me just moving five miles down the road. Everybody should have those same protections.

65. 0:32:59

    I guess I would have to... I don't, I see one question here, but I guess I would have to... And I understand. I mean, I, I s- I sympathize. Uh, um, that needs to be clarified that Georgia Power, for example, that where the, uh, regulation was read earlier-

66. 0:33:13

    Mm-hmm

67. 0:33:13

    ... by the author of the bill, Georgia Power is a, is a, uh, utility that's regulated by the Public Service Commission-

68. 0:33:21

    Mm-hmm

69. 0:33:21

    ... and has a, uh, it, it has a different status-

70. 0:33:25

    Mm-hmm

71. 0:33:25

    ... than, than the other utilities in the state. But, uh, I mean, that doesn't, not taking anything away from what you had to, you've gone through. I'm just trying to clarify that. I think, uh, Chairman Martin has a question.

72. 0:33:39

    Yes, Mr. Chairman. A- I apologize to the lady for, for being late. Yeah, I did understand you. Um, I wanted to ask you, and the chairman asked a- about who, who your provider was.

73. 0:33:48

    Okay.

74. 0:33:49

    Mr. Chairman, if, if I can ask you, um, did, do we have anybody else here to sign up? Is, is somebody from MEAG or GMA here that we can talk to?

75. 0:33:56

    Somebody from, uh, the, uh, um, invest- the, uh, membership-owned is going, gonna speak, I believe.

76. 0:34:04

    EMCs.

77. 0:34:05

    The EMCs are gonna speak, but n- no one, no one here from GMA and MEAG?

78. 0:34:12

    Mm-hmm.

79. 0:34:16

    Okay. Uh-

80. 0:34:18

    You wanna run for office?

81. 0:34:19

    Okay.

82. 0:34:19

    Jason, Jason Bragg wants to speak.

83. 0:34:21

    Okay. Well-

84. 0:34:22

    A lot of people ask me that if you-

85. 0:34:23

    I'd like, I'd like to ask MEAG-

86. 0:34:24

    Thank you

87. 0:34:24

    ... if they-

88. 0:34:24

    Yeah

89. 0:34:25

    ... would like to say.

90. 0:34:25

    I, I, I'll just, I'll go ahead and, and if, if the chair will allow me a little latitude, I mean, I don't wanna put anybody on the spot, and then, and again, I don't wanna put somebody on the spot. I mean, this, this seems to be impactful to our MEAG cities. We hear from them all the time. Um, GMA, you kind of represent them. They're kind of a subset of you. If, if, if there's anybody in the building, I'd have them come over.

91. 0:34:50

    Uh, any other questions of the, uh, witness here? Did you have a question?

92. 0:34:57

    No.

93. 0:34:57

    Okay.

94. 0:34:58

    He said he does.

95. 0:35:00

    Uh, uh, that's all I see right now. You, somebody might have questions for you later, I'm not sure.

96. 0:35:04

    Okay, then.

97. 0:35:04

    Thank you very much.

98. 0:35:05

    Yeah, I would, I would be interested to hear what MEAG has to say, um, because I know that one of their concerns is-

99. 0:35:12

    Oh, yeah

100. 0:35:12

     ... this may affect city utilities, well, city budgets.

101. 0:35:15

     Yeah.

102. 0:35:16

     But there's another factor there where individuals who, for example, how I had to pay those additional fees, late fees and restoration of power, um, reconnect fees. Um, I was told by Griff- the city of Griffin, they make almost a million dollars a year in late fees alone. Some of that money could be put aside to prepare for things like this, because essentially, these, we're the customers that are paying those fees. So there could be things in, put in place to make sure that they account for that in their budgets.

103. 0:35:53

     I think, uh, Chairman Jones I think had a question for you. Is that right?

104. 0:35:58

     Yes, sir.

105. 0:35:58

     Somebody over there did.

106. 0:35:59

     I do, but I think I sh- used Chairman Yearta's mic and button.

107. 0:36:02

     Oh.

108. 0:36:03

     Sorry. My apologies, Mr. Chairman.

109. 0:36:05

     That's all right.

110. 0:36:07

     Rep- Representative Lim? Yeah. I know this is a hearing only, but we might as well knock out some of the questions right now. I- is, is that, is that okay M- Mr. Chairman?

111. 0:36:17

     Yeah, ask your question. Yes.

112. 0:36:18

     All right. I went out to 46-311, and maybe someone in the audience can tell me where, but maybe do you know, I can't find the definition of serious illness, and I'm concerned, as you can probably imagine, 15 doctors will have 15 different definitions of serious illness. Do you know, sir, in the code where that's defined or if it is defined?

113. 0:36:43

     Yeah. It is not defined.

114. 0:36:45

     Okay.

115. 0:36:45

     Excuse me. It is not defined in the code, so that's a good question that I attempted to track down, and given that I attempted to mirror exactly-

116. 0:36:53

     Sure

117. 0:36:53

     ... what happened with, um, the, the rule, Georgia Rule 515, as best as I could find, that has never been defined, and as best as I can guess, that was, uh, intentional because there... As best as I can guess, there needs to be some, like, while we are attempting, and Rule fif- 515 already sets a floor, that it would be important to still have some level of, of flexibility. That's my best guess, and while I would certainly be open to a further definition of that, I did not want to, um, e- essentially disrupt the regime that already existed.

118. 0:37:33

     So my concern, as you can probably imagine, is the latitude, and if we were to move just outside of the regulated po- powers and then go into EMCs and MIACs and things like that, I can only imagine... And, and please, ma'am, with, with, with complete respect, I can only imagine a, a single mom with four kids, um, the challenge that they have in terms of would a doctor, you know, define that as a serious challenge, especially with some of the challenges that we know that a single mom with three, four, five kids has.

119. 0:38:05

     So my concern just keeps coming back to just that. Same thing with aggravated. We, we don't need to get into it, but it says that it would be aggravated, this serious, serious illness, and again, it seems a little broad, um, in terms of if we were to make this something that's statewide. Um, bringing this back from a contextual point of view, did you happen to get from Georgia Power or from the PSC how many times a year is this invoked at the regulatory level? Or do you, you do know, sir?

120. 0:38:33

     Uh, so, um, and I'm happy if, if Georgia Power can answer that question.

121. 0:38:38

     Okay.

122. 0:38:38

     From, from what I was communicated from them, it is invoked, but the, I was not able to necessarily get a figure as to how many times it is invoked. And to go back earlier to, uh, to, to your s- your first comment, um, I want to re- I would be welcome to define that, uh, further because, you know, there are different ways to define that. Again, I will go back to I did not want to disrupt the regime, but I certainly understand the concern there.

123. 0:39:03

     Mm-hmm.

124. 0:39:04

     I would, would hope, and perhaps it doesn't resolve it all the way, but I would hope that the deference to requiring specifically defined, um, entities to be the ones to provide that-

125. 0:39:15

     Yeah

126. 0:39:15

     ... would, um, prevent any possible, um, lack of consistency there.

127. 0:39:20

     Mm.

128. 0:39:20

     But I would certainly welcome additional, um, additional definitions essentially.

129. 0:39:24

     Okay. I would appreciate that. Right. We, we would hope common sense would rule, but lately we're out of common sense. Uh, can I keep going, Mr. Chairman?

130. 0:39:33

     Yes.

131. 0:39:34

     Okay. Um, if you, we, we can ask George- Georgia Power or the PSC that question. Do you know during the abeyance period, p- period, so hypothetically there's an accrued bill of $100. Is that $100, is that written off by the regulated industry, by the regulated power company, or is that something that becomes a bill that the rate payer eventually does have to pay once they come out of the serious illness?

132. 0:39:59

     Yes. So this is speaking within... I, I mentioned earlier Georgia Power does this. I can attest to that because they have assisted my constituents. The, w- with respect to whether it's written off or not, that is a, from my, my experiences I've had with constituents, those are case by case basis.

133. 0:40:14

     Okay.

134. 0:40:14

     It might be completely written them up. It might be reduced. It might be, um, no interest. Uh, I think from what I've seen, again, specifically with the constituents, there's a number of different ways that, that they've gone, gone about that.

135. 0:40:26

     One more question, Mr. Chairman, I promise.

136. 0:40:28

     Yes, you may.

137. 0:40:29

     Representative Lim, have you gone or maybe have folks gone to any of the EMC's annual meetings and tried to get this done just through the cooperative itself as opposed to coming through the State General Assembly?

138. 0:40:43

     I've, I've suggested that personally-

139. 0:40:45

     Okay

140. 0:40:45

     ... to others. Um, and I, and I know that, and this is not, to be clear-

141. 0:40:49

     No

142. 0:40:49

     ... just with respect to the EMCs.

143. 0:40:51

     Okay.

144. 0:40:51

     So again, as Ms. Marzen said-

145. 0:40:52

     Okay

146. 0:40:52

     ... with, with her, um, MIAC. So that has been an attempt that I think a few of us in working with the American Heart Association we've attempted to do.

147. 0:40:59

     Okay. Thank you. And ma'am, my apologies.

148. 0:41:02

     Chairman Jones, uh, Chairman Martin has some information related to the definition of a serious illness.

149. 0:41:08

     Ah.

150. 0:41:08

     I don't want to g- I don't want to get a back and forth, but he, but-

151. 0:41:10

     No.

152. 0:41:10

     You know?

153. 0:41:10

     This, this is friendly because my, my, my friend, even though he's, he got it from the University of Florida, is an attorney. Um, but we, we, we do license him in Georgia, I believe. Yeah, I just looked at general Georgia Code, and their statement is, as you said, it's a general term, but it is used as a, I think you lawyers call a term of art in there. And, and as such, it's defined, uh, with legal meaning, uh, as, as affixed to a statute as- Uh, having been defined as a physical or mental illness as determined by a licensed healthcare professional.

154. 0:41:42

     So it does, it is very general-

155. 0:41:44

     Mm-hmm

156. 0:41:45

     ... but it does go into as det- determined by a licensed healthcare pro- uh, professional. But, uh, Chairman Jones, you, you bring, bring an excellent point of somebody could play, play with that. I, uh, just, just my little, you know, trying to lawyer on the side here.

157. 0:42:01

     Thank you. Thank you for that. Um.

158. 0:42:03

     I'm sorry.

159. 0:42:05

     Representative Romman, I think, has a question.

160. 0:42:06

     Um, that was gonna be my comment. I wave-

161. 0:42:08

     I beg your pardon?

162. 0:42:09

     That was gonna be my comment. I wave.

163. 0:42:11

     Oh, okay.

164. 0:42:11

     And she didn't have to look it up.

165. 0:42:15

     Any questions of the, uh, of the witness with us? None right now anyway, but thank you very much. I appreciate that.

166. 0:42:22

     Thank you.

167. 0:42:22

     We do have somebody wanting to come to speak, uh...

168. 0:42:26

     I think Jason.

169. 0:42:27

     Jason Bragg. Mr. Bragg.

170. 0:42:29

     With you, Mr. Chairman.

171. 0:42:30

     I... If they can tell you, I don't know. If there's any of those down there.

172. 0:42:35

     You can sit on this side.

173. 0:42:37

     Thank you.

174. 0:42:38

     Somebody dropped their fork.

175. 0:42:38

     Okay. Somebody had lunch at their house, I guess.

176. 0:42:47

     Good afternoon, Chairman-

177. 0:42:48

     Afternoon

178. 0:42:48

     ... uh, members of the committee. First off, I wanna thank Representative Lim. We had a good conversation about this, and thanks for the kind words about our member, our member EMCs that we represent down here at the Capitol. Um, you know, while we certainly understand and appreciate the intent of HB 641, um, we disagree that amending the Territorial Act, um, is the right approach. If you read the other consumer aspe- consumer impacting aspects in the Territorial Act, they include kind of broad and fundamental principles of how our electric market works. Those include non-discrimination within, uh, non-discrimination of rates within certain class of customers, non- non-tying provisions, so you can't tie, um, water and sewer to electricity, prohibitions on serving any other premises that, uh, and a, uh, that a supplier is not entitled to serve.

179. 0:43:34

     Um, the Territorial Act does not, and has really never attempted to lay out any detailed service rules and regulations in various types of situations like this bill is doing. Um, the sponsor noted Georgia Power already has their pol- um, already has their rules by the PS-, um, by their regulatory body, which is the PSC. Um, for our EMCs, we believe the best approach to deal with that is with our member elected boards, um, and th- and that, that way they can determine the best approach for their, what fits their commu- um, their community the best. Um, this bill would impose a one size fits all approach, where currently our 41 member elected boards may come up with various approaches they can find to address these types of situations.

180. 0:44:12

     Um, and remember, as cooperatives, obviously somebody's inability to pay a bill is obviously gonna affect in a, other customers. You know, certainly hardships and things like that occur. Um, as we, you know, as we, we surveyed our members earlier this year on this subject, and we found about 85% either have a policy in place or work on a case by case basis, um, for with, with medical issues or any other types of financial hardships that a member, that one of our members may have. Um, and so we believe that that power, that, um, that power on the, uh, policies for the co-op should be set by the co-op board.

181. 0:44:42

     I think to Chairman Jones' comments, um, you know, those co-op boards are elected by the members they serve, and policies that members of the community think that may need to change there are us- are, we think are best addressed by the boards of those local co-ops and addressed that way. Um, and for those reasons, you know, we'd, we'd ask you to oppose 641 when it came for a bill. But just first off, wanted to thank Representative Lim, uh, for the conversation earlier today. We had a good conversation and appreciate the, uh, great feedback he gave on some of the things our members are currently doing in this space.

182. 0:45:11

     Care to take a question?

183. 0:45:12

     Sure thing.

184. 0:45:13

     Chairman Martin.

185. 0:45:15

     Uh, well, I appreciate your point, and I, I would, um... The, the, the two EM- EMC, E, the two EMCs that I've been a part of, I guess, as a, as an owner of a, a property, I guess member-

186. 0:45:26

     Mm-hmm

187. 0:45:27

     ... um, uh, I think function in, in that way. My question is, is this. Just as a practical matter, and I mean, I'm sorry to say I've never really thought about it. Let- let's just say that someone lives in a home and they have some sort of life-sustaining equipment that runs on electricity. I- is there anything that keeps that electricity from being cut off? Because that's tantamount to ending their life. I'm, it's, it's a question. It doesn't necessarily maybe go to this bill, but is there anything in Georgia code or otherwise that you're aware of?

188. 0:46:04

     If you don't have the answer to that, well, then we'll go find it. But I've just, I've never really thought of that before. But if you're at home, I'm not talking about dialysis, that if it stops right now, you know, you can, you can move somewhere, but I'm talking about a res- you know, a, something that helps one breathe. I- is there anything?

189. 0:46:20

     I'm not aware of anything. I will tell you on the EMC side, um, a number of our members have medical priority lists that a member can be put on. Um, they can-

190. 0:46:29

     Right. Well, okay.

191. 0:46:30

     They can call and-

192. 0:46:30

     That was, that was gonna be my next question, so you're ahead of me.

193. 0:46:31

     Yeah. They have a, they have a number, they have a m- you know, a number of our members have medical priority lists. A member can call, be placed on that list, and before they are cut off, they will receive a call. Um, you know, obviously there's the text that you get for your bills when payments are due and things like that. This is another level that adds a layer where staff will call them, make sure that they know kind of where their situation is, and try to work with them as best they can to get that, um, to that-

194. 0:46:53

     Generally

195. 0:46:53

     ... to get that account back in good standing.

196. 0:46:54

     Return generally.

197. 0:46:54

     'Cause obviously, you know, as, we don't, we don't wanna, we don't wanna cut off anybody's power and risk their life. Um, but at some point, you know, certainly, you know, as a co-op, those, those costs, if they're not paid by the member, have to be shared by the other members that-

198. 0:47:06

     Yeah. But, but I mean, I, I understand that. But I mean, as a practical matter, is it not true that we live in a, you know, pretty compassionate society? We're, we're not talking about, you know-

199. 0:47:14

     Sure

200. 0:47:14

     ... a d- I, I know you are. I mean, I'm saying, but, you know, this is not 1% of your customers that, that live in a place where if they lose the power at their home, that their, their resuscitator or their breathing apparatus doesn't work and so forth. Um, and, and so, um, I don't know. This may not be the right place for it to go in towards the code, but I, I could certainly- ... um, see I would love to see the patterns all your members are doing so we could hand them over to MEAC.

201. 0:47:40

     Yeah, I'd be glad to do it.

202. 0:47:40

     'Cause it appear- it appears they're a might short.

203. 0:47:42

     Yeah, and I'd, you know, I, as I said, you know, the case-by-case approach, I've been involved in some of these consumer type situations with legislator requests and others, um, on medical hardships. Our members are gonna work with them as best as they can anytime to try to get them back on their feet and get them back where they need to be.

204. 0:47:59

     Thank you.

205. 0:48:00

     I think you had another question or two, if you'll take it.

206. 0:48:02

     Yes, sir. I mean, you knew.

207. 0:48:03

     Who's over there? Uh, Re- uh, Representative Flournoy. There you are.

208. 0:48:09

     Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, so I guess I'm just trying to get clarification, um, as it relates to the EMCs. I know that there isn't a, a, a policy as a whole, but generally, what, what, what is the policy for the, maybe the majority of EMCs if they have something that's, that's already standing? Um, and I know one EMC might have something and another one might not. But generally, what would be a policy that, um, an EMC might have to kind of deal with these types of situations?

209. 0:48:45

     Yeah, I mean, I, I think these, as I said earlier, can be no different than typical financial hardships. People have a hard time paying bills. Our members historically have always worked on a case-by-case basis with those. You know, what's the situation? When can you pay? Can you pay this much by that, by this date to at least maybe get caught up or get back going? Um, in terms of an example of a policy, um, you know, I'm not sure that I've, I've got one in front of me that I c- I can give you, but I do know we have, you know, from the, the survey we did, 85% have a policy, or as I said, handle it on a case-by-case basis.

210. 0:49:19

     So-

211. 0:49:19

     85% of the EMCs?

212. 0:49:20

     Yes. So the vast majority of the EMCs in the state are.

213. 0:49:23

     Okay.

214. 0:49:23

     That we surveyed earlier this year.

215. 0:49:25

     Okay.

216. 0:49:25

     Other questions?

217. 0:49:25

     I had a question.

218. 0:49:28

     Okay. Well, we have the lady, um, Representative Lupton, I think, was-

219. 0:49:31

     Oh

220. 0:49:31

     ... I think, was first.

221. 0:49:32

     Yeah.

222. 0:49:32

     I'm not sure.

223. 0:49:34

     You wanna race me, Beth? You want

224. 0:49:39

     Um, a- and, and this almost tags on to what you were saying. You, we've got the EMCs and the power, um, providers-

225. 0:49:48

     Mm-hmm

226. 0:49:48

     ... doing, you know, kind of fill in as they can case by case. Uh, and you mentioned this a little bit in your other possible solutions. I think what we have here, especially with, um, with-

227. 0:49:59

     This one, Beth

228. 0:50:00

     ... this testaments, is a confluence of things between the power company and the municipality. The way her bill was paid was complicating how that service was being delivered. And short of regulating every municipality to have their power, uh, you know, in such a way, um, I think this is a clear way to get, uh, to a small wedge of people, uh, very small I imagine, um, that might need this.

229. 0:50:34

     Um, and with the putting the, pardon me, putting the, the discontinuation in abeyance for 20 to 30 days, um, after someone has gotten basically a doctor's note saying, um, "This will, their li- you know, this person's life will be at risk if they don't get this, um, this illness," uh, I mean, "if they don't get this power," um, I think this is pretty operating with as much of a scalpel as we can, rather than a sledgehammer.

230. 0:51:05

     So, um, even if s- specific providers have policies, it may not cover them from what their municipalities may be doing or how their bills may be collected. It may be-

231. 0:51:19

     Yeah

232. 0:51:19

     ... other factors that complicate them keeping that power on.

233. 0:51:24

     Yeah, I'm-

234. 0:51:24

     That's just all I wanted to point out.

235. 0:51:25

     I'll be clear. I don't represent the municipal utilities. We're electric cooperatives only.

236. 0:51:28

     Right.

237. 0:51:28

     But yeah, I, I-

238. 0:51:29

     Right

239. 0:51:29

     ... I see what you're saying.

240. 0:51:30

     And that's not your-

241. 0:51:31

     I, I believe, I mean-

242. 0:51:31

     ... that's not your role, so

243. 0:51:32

     ... I know with my own bill, I paid my EMC security on it.

244. 0:51:35

     Right.

245. 0:51:36

     You know, there may be some other things that could, that they can bundle, but, um-

246. 0:51:39

     Right

247. 0:51:39

     ... we don't typically have that situation.

248. 0:51:41

     Yeah, that's another situation then.

249. 0:51:41

     Yeah, we don't have that situation.

250. 0:51:42

     Yeah. Thank you.

251. 0:51:43

     All right, we have, uh, have another question if you'll take it.

252. 0:51:45

     Sure. Yes, sir.

253. 0:51:46

     In fact, you have a couple. Uh-

254. 0:51:48

     All right

255. 0:51:48

     ... Chairman Camp, Chair Lady Camp.

256. 0:51:50

     Thank you so much. Mr. Chairman, thank you for being here. Thank you for presenting this bill. Um, I kind of, I'm in the same vein of thought as Representative Lupton. Um, I think it's interesting because I know various power companies, Georgia Power, for example. I have a friend that works at Georgia Power. She actually works in the department where people call in if they're having an issue paying their bill. And, um, I, I don't know the policy, but she helps people keep their power on. And so I know they have that in place. Um, I see a c- few heads nodding. So I know they have that in place.

257. 0:52:21

     I'm a member of, I have three different EMC bills that I pay. Um, and so I'm curious, I know each independent operated EMC, you're un- umbrella, I understand that, but just out of curiosity, is there a policy, and maybe this is a conversation for the next time, do the EMCs have a policy in place on how to deal with delinquent situations when there are complex medical issues? I, I mean, I think that's actually worth the question, and the same with the MEACs. We're not, not we're, we're telling you what to do, but do you have a system in place-

258. 0:52:52

     Good question

259. 0:52:53

     ... to move forward with those individuals? Because there are situations where people are on ventilators and people do want dialysis at night. Um, th- there are some very... I, I don't know how often it ever happens, but not necessarily telling you what your policy is, but do you have a policy in place on how to move forward with individuals who have more complex medical situations that actually would be life and death if they didn't have power? Um, so I guess my question is, are you aware of any EMCs that do have that in place?

260. 0:53:24

     I know you can't speak to the MEAG or Georgia Power

261. 0:53:27

     I am aware of some that have policies in place. Um, I don't have any of those in front of me. I'd be happy to find some and get one. I think one that I actually looked at last night was, I think, one of your EMCs. I think it was Southern Rivers Energy in Barnville. Um-

262. 0:53:37

     I think they do have one in place

263. 0:53:38

     ... it had the, um, it had the, the medical disconnect, the priority list that I was speaking on to earlier. But, yeah, I'm happy to look up some of our policies and bring you some examples.

264. 0:53:46

     All right. Thank you.

265. 0:53:47

     Yes, ma'am.

266. 0:53:48

     Okay. I think you have another question from Representative Rahman.

267. 0:53:50

     Sure can.

268. 0:53:50

     Hi.

269. 0:53:51

     Hey. How you doing?

270. 0:53:52

     How are you?

271. 0:53:52

     Doing good.

272. 0:53:52

     It's good to see you-

273. 0:53:53

     You too

274. 0:53:53

     ... in a while. Um, so about this bill in particular, do you foresee any concerns if something like this were to be implemented, some kind of floor, um, for just statewide? That way there isn't sort of a discrepancy between who is being regulated and who isn't.

275. 0:54:08

     I think we feel that our, the regulatory authority that covers us are our EMC boards, which are elected by the members that they serve. So you have a vote in that board. Um, I have a vote as a member of an EMC. Um, we feel that those people are the appropriate body to set the policy for that local EMC.

276. 0:54:22

     Okay.

277. 0:54:22

     And, and that's been a longstanding position on not only this, but on many other matters for years down here for us.

278. 0:54:28

     Okay, so it's like from a perspective of just, hey, this is our principle across the board, but not from a perspective of this would have, for example, um, negative consequences on the entire sector of, in a way.

279. 0:54:41

     I don't think it would have negative consequences on-

280. 0:54:43

     Okay

281. 0:54:43

     ... the entire sector, is what you're asking. I think for us, just from a general philosophical standpoint, we believe that governance is best at the local co-op, all those boards that are elected by the members, um, to make the policies for that EMC. And-

282. 0:54:54

     Yeah

283. 0:54:54

     ... and honestly, I think that this, you know, it, that, that, um, that structure that we have or, you know, the regulatory structure that the state is, that they've op- that electric co-ops have operated under for 90, almost 90 years in the state, has served well. I mean, they could potentially put in a policy that probably was more broad than what's in the bill if they want to.

284. 0:55:12

     Right.

285. 0:55:12

     I'm not gonna say, you know, I'm not saying they would do that, but that's an option, certainly, if the members wanna do it. You know, obviously that's a, there's a process for that and by-law changes that they can make at the board level.

286. 0:55:21

     Yeah. I was just trying to figure out, for example-

287. 0:55:23

     Mm-hmm

288. 0:55:23

     ... the, the realities for the sector because-

289. 0:55:24

     Sure

290. 0:55:24

     ... and it, like y'all are obviously functioning in a way that makes sense and would protect individuals that need that. But to echo what, um, Representative Martin had said earlier, which is that, you know, are we inadvertently allowing for, um, a, the inability to pay a utility bill to become potentially a death sentence? And I think that is, it's not that there aren't good actors, it's that what can we do about the bad ones-

291. 0:55:49

     Sure

292. 0:55:49

     ... and trying to figure out what this h- what impact this has on the broader sector as a whole.

293. 0:55:53

     Sure.

294. 0:55:53

     But thank you for answering that.

295. 0:55:54

     I understand. And, and, um, you know, it is, and this is not what you meant, but I just wanna make sure that that's clear. Um, you know, our members are gonna work with anybody that they can to try to tell, help their situation get along. Um, you know, certainly as somebody who's represented them down here for 15 years, I don't think we have any bad actors. I think our folks are always working and doing things that are in the best of their, um, for the best for their community. And, uh, you know, as I said, it's just a philosophical disagreement that we feel that government should be left to-

296. 0:56:21

     Yeah

297. 0:56:21

     ... that EMC at the local level.

298. 0:56:22

     Chairman Yearta, do you have a question?

299. 0:56:24

     I had a question for the author of the bill-

300. 0:56:26

     The author

301. 0:56:27

     ... at the proper time.

302. 0:56:28

     Okay.

303. 0:56:28

     I, I don't have a pressure.

304. 0:56:30

     Okay. I don't, uh, I don't think there are any further questions for you, sir.

305. 0:56:33

     Thank you.

306. 0:56:34

     Thank you.

307. 0:56:34

     Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

308. 0:56:35

     Thank you. All right. Is there anybody else signed up to speak on this? Is there anybody here from any of the, uh, Electric Cities? Is that what you're called, Electric Cities?

309. 0:56:43

     Yes, sir. Me and them.

310. 0:56:44

     Yeah. They, they were invited here a few minutes ago.

311. 0:56:47

     Anybody from ME?

312. 0:56:48

     I'm with Electric Cities of Georgia, Chairman.

313. 0:56:50

     Can't hear you, sir.

314. 0:56:51

     I'm with Electric Cities of Georgia, but we are not planning to testify.

315. 0:56:55

     Okay. Um, you have a question, I think, Re- uh, Representative Lim.

316. 0:57:01

     From the Chairman, yes.

317. 0:57:01

     If you, if you'll take it.

318. 0:57:03

     Yes, sir. Of course.

319. 0:57:03

     Yes, sir. Uh, thank you for coming, Representative Lim. Um, I have a question. You were talking about the municipal electric cities that provide.

320. 0:57:13

     Mm-hmm.

321. 0:57:13

     If you, do you have an idea of how many cities in Georgia have a policy at this point?

322. 0:57:20

     So I tried very hard in the year, especially since introducing this. It was quite difficult. Um, I d- I don't wanna call anyone out. Um, y- you know, in my position, uh, 'cause I, uh, uh, to reiterate what I said to Chairman Jones, that is the approach. Uh, uh, 'cause I very much understand the philosophy of going to the governing bodies. As, as we have one example-

323. 0:57:44

     Right

324. 0:57:44

     ... perhaps the most prominent one, um, that was tried. It, it did not work despite intense pressure. And the, n- n- so I know that my EMC, again, I say very kind things about them, has it in place, and I know my experiences with Georgia Power. I think it's perhaps because I represent those areas that I was able to get their policies from some others. Um, I, I very much trust what, um, Mr. Bragg said that as far as the EMCs that, uh, 'cause I believe what I, he was saying was that 85%, um, have them, but the rest might not have responded.

325. 0:58:20

     So it's quite possible that the rest of them do have some policy. I think that is in, in favor of what we're trying to do here because most of the folks do them. To Chairman Martin's point, it's those very small, truly life and death, and again, I'm happy to revisit the definition further, that we want to avoid. And I don't even necessarily wanna say that it's bad actors, but I think we've all experienced problems with customer service just because you get transferred here, transferred there. So to get back to the original question, I don't know.

326. 0:58:53

     I tried to find, and it was not the easiest.

327. 0:58:56

     Yeah. All right. So if I can follow up, Mr. Chairman?

328. 0:58:59

     Yes, please.

329. 0:59:00

     The, the local communities, basically s- they set their own rates. Uh, they, by local ordinance, could they not, uh, do the things that you're asking to do here?

330. 0:59:10

     Yes, they could, and we invite them to.

331. 0:59:13

     You know, uh, the, uh, Electric Cities in Georgia, Municipal Electric Cities are very varied in size. You have communities of just a several hundred people to communities that are much, much larger. So there's a very- different. So, you know, it looks like it might be better handled by a local ordinance, uh, in my opinion to, to handle that policy because the policy may affect different communities differently.

332. 0:59:41

     I, I would agree that that is generally the best. Um, and I think it is imperative though on the state to explore solutions when people do follow that democratic process and some aren't listening. And this is a very narrowly carved out to respond to those specific instances where we have seen that the locals haven't been responsive. Because again, I think it's important to be clear, I think the vast majority of them, whether they're PSE regulated, whether they're EMCs versus MIACs, the vast majority of them either have some sort of policy and people aren't experiencing these problems, but there's been more than a c- a few cases where we have seen that they, that there are, there are people experiencing problems and have gone to their localities, whether that's EMCs and MIACs, and they haven't responded.

333. 1:00:34

     Uh, and so I think that's why this bill... B- to me, that is why this bill exists, is because people did attempt to follow the process, and in those cases, uh, unfortunately people haven't listened.

334. 1:00:45

     Okay. All right, no further questions. Representative Lim, uh, your bill raises and, and the discussion here raises some good questions, uh, and issues. A public utility is something that people need. It's, it's a utility that people need. That's kind of the basis. It's also something that people are expected to pay for. In the, in the different entities we have here, somebody's expected to pay for it.

335. 1:01:16

     And then the third thing I'm thinking about, it's a public utility, and nobody should have a loss of life for anything related to it. Nobody should have to lose their life because of some particular circumstances. It raised some good questions. I, I wanna, uh, recognize, uh, Chairman Martin. He might have something to, uh, to, uh, bring to us and enlighten us a little bit.

336. 1:01:39

     Uh, if, if I... Thank, thank you, uh, Mr. Chairman and, and Representative. Thanks for bringing this in, in, in Chairman Yearta. And then I, I wanna go back to a, a meeting we had a couple of weeks ago when we were discussing a fund that, you know, you paid into so that we could make sure we could get life-needing... That was important to us, okay? We didn't all come down on the same side, but that's gonna work out, too. I mean, we're all... That, that's what legislative process is. And I appreciate par- participating in that with the people that with which I agreed and the ones that I didn't. But I suggest we, we could do the same thing here, is make this a priority.

337. 1:02:11

     And, and what, uh, Chairman Yearta said, I would suggest maybe if the chairman would allow you to go back and, and create something like this bill, but, but have a, a safe harbor in it that af- if a EMC or, or, um, electric city ha- had a policy at a certain level, it did not apply to them. So all of the people that Mr. Bragg came up here and said that had this, if we put something in law, it wouldn't apply because they've done that. But if you fail to take care of, of something that, that some level of reasonableness, and I'll leave that to the chairman and, and Mr., the Chairman Yearta and you to, to figure out that.

338. 1:02:49

     But, but that way you don't, we don't bigfoot into areas that are already being taken care of. But instead let the locals, as, as you said, sir, that, that, that can do something and tailor it for their own community, and with some basic reasonable. So you can't just say, as the lady said, you get one more day. Um, you know, something a little bit more reasonable. But that, that would be a suggestion, 'cause it's obviously important. And, uh, I don't know what the chair's, uh, plans are for the bill, but I think that we'd probably find a place to make that happen.

339. 1:03:20

     Thank you. Uh, Representative Lim, here's, uh... I think I told you we were having a hearing today. We're not gonna take a vote.

340. 1:03:27

     Yes.

341. 1:03:28

     I'm not gonna put it in subcommittee. Um, but I th- here's what I would suggest. We... I mean, I'm surprised. I mean, I think we gave plenty of notice that we were having a meeting today.

342. 1:03:39

     Mm-hmm.

343. 1:03:39

     Or, you know, we wouldn't have some of the people here that are here. I'm kind of surprised that somebody from the, uh, the, uh, MIAC organizations aren't here to, to speak to this.

344. 1:03:50

     But what I would ask you to do, I mean, I think y- you raised some good questions. Your bill, um, raises some very valid questions, and the lady who came and s- uh, spoke, Mrs. Marsden, uh, certainly raises some good points. I believe there's some w- ways... You wouldn't have to have a new bill. I think there's some ways you could, uh, come back with a substitute for this bill that could probably answer the issue, respond to the issue in a positive way that would, would, uh, help with this situation without being overburdensome and having something that applies to everybody that doesn't need to, doesn't necessarily need to be that way.

345. 1:04:35

     I would like to ask you to do that. I think you could do that. I think with the conversation here with, uh, Chairman Martin, I believe there's some way that that could be done. So let's just leave it in the bosom of the, of the committee for right now and, uh, for the, uh, for this coming... You know, we don't have to do anything next week, but that way if you could look at this, I'm sure you're wanting to do something with it. I think that it... I think that there's an avenue there for something to be done with this, I do. And it just kind of depends what you would come up with. But, uh, uh, if, if you're okay with that, that's the, that's the route that the, the chair would take with this.

346. 1:05:11

     I am quite okay with that, Mr. Chair.

347. 1:05:13

     Okay. Has anybody else, uh, have anything from the committee to add to this? It's a, that's a, a good issue that we need to really take seriously. I can work with that. Okay. Yeah. Chairman Camp said she would work with you on it. Mm-hmm. I'm sure Chairman Martin would, uh, would work with you on it. Um, I don't like, I don't like the idea of people dying because of, of some particular issue with the billing or something. I don't like that idea at all.

348. 1:05:38

     I'm opposed to that as well.

349. 1:05:39

     Uh, we're... I think all of us are opposed to that.

350. 1:05:40

     Thank you, Chair.

351. 1:05:41

     If we took a vote on that, I think it'd be unanimous. Yeah.

352. 1:05:44

     I, I, I... And I don't mean to make light. This is very serious subject.

353. 1:05:47

     Yeah.

354. 1:05:47

     But it is something, so Chairman, you're right.

355. 1:05:50

     Yeah. All right. With that, if there's nothing else...

356. 1:05:54

     Mr. Chair.

357. 1:05:54

     Yes, sir.

358. 1:05:55

     I'd just like to apologize to the chairman. Um, uh, y'all have, uh, HB 1133. Um, he graciously, the chairman, uh, made accommodation to hear my bill today. But in my 15 years, I've made an oversight today that the bill is not in this committee. It- It is, it is in governmental affairs committee. So-

359. 1:06:24

     Wow. A whole other problem

360. 1:06:25

     ... so I just wanna thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the, for, uh, trying to accommodate me.

361. 1:06:29

     Yeah. Well, you're, um, you're very-

362. 1:06:30

     But, um, my, my fault completely.

363. 1:06:32

     That's okay. Very fortunate. We were gonna vote it down if it was in this committee.

364. 1:06:36

     So, so, so if you see HB 1133 on the House floor, please vote for it if it ever gets there.

365. 1:06:43

     All right, we're- That is- We're adjourned. Thank you. I've never