Comité Higher Education de la Cámara de Representantes, 18 de febrero de 2026

Transcripción

395 turnos. Seleccione un tiempo para reproducir ese momento del video.

1. 0:17:46

   Good, good afternoon, everyone. Just kidding.

2. 0:17:52

   There we go. G- good afternoon, everyone. We'll go ahead and, uh, I'll call this meeting of the House Higher Education Committee, uh, to order. We're gonna have two, uh, items that will, uh, um, be sounded today and, and be heard for the first time. House Bill 1293 by Speaker Pro Tem Jan Jones, and Senate Bill 400 by our colleague from the Senate, uh, the Higher Ed Chairman, uh, Senator Max Burns from the 23rd. We'll start this mor- uh, this morning, this afternoon, we are already. Uh, and I'd ask, uh, Pro Tem Jones, if you'd come up and tell us about your measure, House Bill 1293.

3. 0:18:24

   Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. So House Bill 1293, uh, revises, uh, legislation from last year and that y'all, those of you who've been on the committee, uh, I think it, back in 2020 or '21, it was initially passed to do several things, but primarily to allow the technical colleges in a pilot program to offer, um, extra support to students, uh, their younger students, and to allow them to get a high school degree.

4. 0:18:58

   In working with TCSG, um, well, and there was something in the bill that, uh, expired this year that we, we needed to change. And so in working with TCSG and myself, what we have, are proposing is that we remove it as a pilot. We'll no longer be in pilot, it'll be in code. But with some, with some changes. And, um, the first change defines wraparound services on page two, lines 39 to 41.

5. 0:19:32

   And so we want to embed that into the program, uh, for counseling and that sort of thing. Um, page three eliminates it as a pilot program. What, what we need if we're gonna do these wraparound services is not just have to go to the Appropriations Chair every year and ask for money. So it, um, it, it will, um, it, it will be added to the formula to offer some of these, uh, wraparound services.

6. 0:20:02

   And the formula will be devised not by us, but by, uh, the department. And so the, the major changes though, aside from that, and those are important, um, is that it will, it actually will end in probably, um, four years or so, the serving 16 and 17-year-olds. In working with...

7. 0:20:33

   But what it, but the flip side of it is, is it'll expand 18 to 22-year-olds statewide. And so it will refocus the miss- on the mission of the technical college system, which is to serve, you know, to provide adult education to adults. And back when this bill was first passed as a pilot, um, we didn't have this network, some of you may also be on the education committee, of completion schools, which serve that purpose.

8. 0:21:05

   And so the network of completion schools, in my opinion, is a better place for these students. They work in conjunction with technical colleges. They already offer all the technical or the, uh, the services. Frankly, they're better funded. Because they're funded through QB, uh, you know, they have access to, easy access to high school teachers that specialize in serving students particularly at risk of dropping out. And so, but it, it allows students that are 16 and 17 to enroll in this program up until 2028.

9. 0:21:44

   Now, it also, those students, that category of students, 16 and 17 for the next few years, will remain enrolled at their home school. What we don't want to happen is for there to be any, uh, structural or, uh, incentive to get kids out of your graduation rate. And we have seen that's what has happened previously with, with alternative schools, is that, um, you know, they don't want their, their graduation rate dinged, and the best way to not have your graduation dinged is by shuffling them on down the road to some other program where they're enrolled.

10. 0:22:21

    And I'm not suggesting that that's, well, it's more widespread than I'd like to think, let's put it that way. And so this closes the loop so that any 16 and 17-year-old at risk of dropping out will be enrolled at their home school. Their results, you know, test scores, everything will go back, track back to their home school. They will have the opt- and ultimately they'll have the option of completion schools. By 2027, '28 school year, we should have completion schools available to every student in Georgia with the exception of the five major, um, metro, uh, systems, most of whom have a pretty robust program.

11. 0:23:07

    Uh, they're big enough to have their own program. But should they want to, the legislation that y'all voted on, I don't know whenever it was, last week or this week, uh, on completion schools, will allow those five metro schools to participate in the other completion school programs should they choose. They don't have to wait for one of these consortiums to form. The, the biggest thing this does is it gets rid of the pilot and it says that 18 to 22-year-olds, this will be rolled out over time by the technical college system throughout the state.

12. 0:23:42

    Students, those younger 18 to 22-year-old students will have wraparound services. They'll have a program to help them get over the finish line and hopefully get a, some kind of certification or other training as well. Um- And that is what the bill does, and I'd be happy to answer questions about it.

13. 0:24:02

    Thank you, Madam Pro Tem. And, and to be clear, um, that what I heard you say is we're, we're transitioning the 16, 17-year-old students out of this program, but we're doing that because by the time the transition is required to occur, they will have the opportunity for the completion schools, which I believe in talking with TCSG and, and the, the Board of Education-

14. 0:24:20

    Which-

15. 0:24:20

    ... or the State Board, is, is a better alternative-

16. 0:24:23

    It is

17. 0:24:23

    ... or a better option. I won't say alternative.

18. 0:24:25

    It is.

19. 0:24:25

    Better option for them in any case. So nobody is, we're not rolling up the runway on anybody.

20. 0:24:30

    Right.

21. 0:24:30

    We're giving everybody an opportunity to do that.

22. 0:24:32

    Sure.

23. 0:24:32

    And, and let the people do what they're the best at.

24. 0:24:35

    That's, yes, sir. And if I didn't say it, um, the coastal area has it, Northwest Georgia, Northeast Georgia, um, Albany opened, w- uh, this year. This next fall, uh, Columbus, when I say Columbus, I mean the region. You know, it could be 15, 20 school systems, and they have sites at the, all within the different school systems. The kids attend, uh, college mostly at night on these, uh, current high school campuses.

25. 0:25:06

    And then, um, Macon is forming, and Chairman Chris Ermin, Erwin tells me that it should be ready to go in '27.

26. 0:25:15

    Um, you had a couple questions, Madam Pro Tem-

27. 0:25:17

    Yeah

28. 0:25:17

    ... if you didn't have.

29. 0:25:18

    Yeah.

30. 0:25:18

    Um, Representative Burnough, to your left.

31. 0:25:21

    Okay, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, thank you for the bill. I just had a couple questions.

32. 0:25:27

    Yeah.

33. 0:25:27

    Um, when you s- speak of wraparound services-

34. 0:25:30

    Yeah

35. 0:25:30

    ... does that include having services, uh, if, if, uh, students speak a different language, like ESOL students? Would we have that? Would that be a part of that?

36. 0:25:42

    You know, I, I would have to defer to TCSG, and they're here.

37. 0:25:46

    Mm-hmm.

38. 0:25:47

    Do you have an, a response to that?

39. 0:25:49

    Well, and I'll ask the other part.

40. 0:25:51

    Yeah.

41. 0:25:51

    And also, if a student has a IEP.

42. 0:25:54

    So, so, so after, uh, we will be transitioning to where it's adults-

43. 0:26:01

    Mm-hmm

44. 0:26:01

    ... 18 to 22. My, I su- suspect that whatever the technical college system offers now to those students, um, you know, 'cause they serve 18-year-olds, would transfer, but I hear what you're saying about if you ha- if you are 18 and you have an IEP. Now, there is verbiage in the bill that, um, responds to that on line 177.

45. 0:26:34

    So I don't, I don't think it actually does for an IEP. Like, they would probably need to remain in their high school. But again, I, I'm gonna let TCSG-

46. 0:26:43

    O- okay. The only reason I ask that is, is because-

47. 0:26:47

    Yeah

48. 0:26:47

    ... one of my daughters had a IEP-

49. 0:26:49

    Yeah

50. 0:26:49

    ... and when she went to Albany State, they had to honor that. So I thought there was a law that if they have a IEP and, or if they're ESOL, that even if they go to a college, whether it's a two-year college or four year-

51. 0:27:03

    Yeah

52. 0:27:03

    ... that's still part of their learning plan.

53. 0:27:06

    Yeah.

54. 0:27:06

    And that's how they, they learn. So I wouldn't see how we would discriminate-

55. 0:27:10

    Understood

56. 0:27:10

    ... and take that away from them.

57. 0:27:11

    And, and I guess what you're, and I mean, you're more knowledgeable, personally knowledgeable about this than me, it, you know, they have the plan, the program now, so I guess they... Is it okay, Mr. Chairman, if, um-

58. 0:27:23

    Yeah. We'll, we'll invite, we'll invite, um-

59. 0:27:25

    I don't know how you do it

60. 0:27:26

    ... we'll, no, we'll invite TCSG out to, as I told you after I'm-

61. 0:27:29

    Yeah

62. 0:27:29

    ... I'm happy to have, uh, Mr. Peavy join that.

63. 0:27:31

    Yeah.

64. 0:27:32

    I, I think in my-

65. 0:27:33

    They do it now

66. 0:27:33

    ... and, and while, while he's coming up, I think it's-

67. 0:27:35

    Yeah

68. 0:27:35

    ... go ahead, please.

69. 0:27:36

    Yeah.

70. 0:27:36

    I think, well, it's, it's clear to go, th- this is something you're choosing to do as a student. We're constitutionally obligated to provide you the K through 12 education. If, if one try, goes a different direction-

71. 0:27:47

    Right

72. 0:27:47

    ... you, you make that choice.

73. 0:27:48

    That, that's not, that's not true, um, because I do know-

74. 0:27:51

    I'm not, ma'am, ma'am-

75. 0:27:52

    I do know that schools-

76. 0:27:53

    Ma'am, ma'am, I'm, I'm not, I'm not gonna d- debate this with you today. We're gonna, we're gonna ask questions. I, I take you on your knowledge, your personal knowledge of it. But let's hear from Mr. Peavy. I, that is my, my thought. If I'm wrong, I'll, I'll stand corrected. Ma- Mr. Peavy.

77. 0:28:07

    Mr. Chairman, I will speak to the fact that students who come to us as ESOL who ha- who, who need accommodations, we provide those things already. Not exactly the way this, the same way they do on the K12 side-

78. 0:28:17

    Mm-hmm

79. 0:28:17

    ... because some of the legal language is a little bit different, but we have a, a, um, special populations, um, department that serves each one of our colleges, and so those things are already handled for those students that we have. Not exactly the way, and the, and the IEPs don't transfer over directly, but we provide accommodations as needed for students, ESOL, other things that are needed as we can.

80. 0:28:38

    Thank you, because, um, I do know, I've heard from different, uh, schools, um, that for those students, that was one of the drawbacks was that those students that needed that, that assistance for ESOL or that IEP, that that was why they weren't successful. And then sometimes the college teachers became more frustrated. So I don't know how the communication goes back and forth with the school district and with those on your campus, so that's why I was asking it.

81. 0:29:11

    Thank you.

82. 0:29:12

    Yeah. Good question.

83. 0:29:14

    Thank you. Thank you. Uh, Dr. Clark, to your, to your right.

84. 0:29:20

    Um, thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you so much for bringing the bill. Um, my question has to do with, um, this started as a pilot, and, uh, it sounds like it was a very successful pilot, and so I'm, my question is why change what worked in the pilot to something completely different? Or I won't say completely different, but something different.

85. 0:29:43

    Yes. Well, so the, the pilot was to s- to sort of, uh, draft or to, to test run the different aspects of it. And one, I think the, the most successful part that aligns with TCSG's mission of educating adult learners, um, was the 18 and older

86. 0:30:08

    The 16 and 17-year-old, um, because we ne- w- which we did not have at the time that the pilot, you know, w- w- it was a w- th- this was, uh, Senator Lindsey Tippins, who's no longer with us, he wanted to see, um, s- some way to serve students at risk of dropping out, and we did not have that. Mm-hmm. In looking at what they can offer and what the completion schools can offer, um, we determined that the completion schools were a better fit for them.

87. 0:30:42

    It was somewhat duplicative and distracts from the mission of the technical college. And, and frankly, it would take even more funding of wraparound services to deal with 16 and 17-year-olds, for some of the reasons that, uh, Representative Burnough brought up even. You know, when you're 16 and 17, you just need more. Um, and, uh, one follow-up question. Um, so most students, uh, do graduate at 18, and work- they're considered adults at 18, but- Right ...

88. 0:31:15

    we have students like my son who ended up graduating at 17 just 'cause birthdays and things like that. And so are we maybe leaving out, like, a small population of kids who are, are younger who technically, um, should be eligible to go to college? M- Dr. Clark, let me- He, he would be ... g- g- go, I mean, let me help with it. This, this is to complete your high school- And- This is the portion to complete your high school degree. So they would still be able to go to TCSG at 16 and 17.

89. 0:31:48

    Yeah. To, to technical college at 16. Well, and I'm, what, but what I'm saying is right now the program says if you're 16 or 17, you cannot use this program. And what I'm saying is there are people who technically would fall in, like, this little hole where they are young enough, or they're younger than 18, but they technically would have graduated at 17 if they were just regular, not even- I hear you ... at risk of dropping out.

90. 0:32:18

    They would have actually graduated at the age of 17. I understand. So in this case, there's, like, this small group of people that might now just have nowhere to go. They're not really- So- But the- So if I, if I can respond. So this is a dropout recovery program. Right. So your son would not have been a fit for this, any different than, say, a, um, I don't know, a child who, whether they graduate 16 or 18 or, or ha- or maybe have a, you know, some kids don't graduate till they're 19 because their parents delayed their entry.

91. 0:32:53

    That might be a Georgia Tech type student. This would not be a program that would align with their needs. This is a program oriented towards kids at risk of drop, who have dropped out or at risk of dropping out. Mm. So in, i- in the same way that it, it just doesn't fit them 'cause it doesn't fit the mission. But he would have, he could go to college. He could go to technical college. He, he would have all avenues available to him. But, but he would no more f- probably, he would no more fit this program than he would the completion schools.

92. 0:33:28

    I would, no, not my son. I will say that. But I will say ... Or somebody. But, um, I guess what I'm saying is if they did ninth grade at a certain, at a younger age than most people did, maybe they started in private school, they did 10th grade, and now they're at risk of dropping out, but technically they're on this path where when they would've been in 12th grade, they are a whole year younger than most of the people in 12th grade. I mean, I mean, it's, it's very technical. Yeah. I'm just trying to make sure we're not leaving some students out that might fall just in this hole where- Yes ...

93. 0:34:01

    where do, where I, where am I eligible for? If, if, if, if a child were at risk of dropping out, if I were the parent and I just thought, "Man, I just don't wanna be in the traditional school environment," in a few years he would have the completion schools available to him, uh, and not this program because I think they're a better fit. But he, he wouldn't if he, if he is a, already graduated.

94. 0:34:31

    This is for children, this is for students who have not graduated. Great. Yeah. Thank you. Uh, if, if I could, Madam Pro Tem, and, and now I'm following your point, Dr. Clark, I apologize. S- so perhaps, some of the intersections we're looking through here, i- if there would, would be an exi- exist a situation where an adequate completion school wasn't in an area, perhaps we would allow for a, um, an application to, to this on a, on an as-needed basis. Uh, something for the, the Pro Tem to think about on, on a like a- Usually the five metro count- Yeah, the five metro count.

95. 0:35:05

    If there were appeal proc- "Hey, we don't have another place. We don't wanna leave those, the, we don't wanna leave those folks out." But we think they'll be all, uh, taken care of by 20, July 1st, 2020. It just, it, it is a whole, I mean, it would require- The whole infrastructure ... TCSG to remain in the business of underage students and educating them. Yes, ma'am. All right. Well, let, let's move on- But that's all ... with some more questions. This is our first hearing. Um, the governor's floor leader, uh, Representative Gambill. Thank you, Chairman Martin. And Pro Tem, thank you for the bill. I think I have heard you clarify my question, but I just wanna make sure, uh, that this is for a very specific group of students- Yeah ...

96. 0:35:44

    that otherwise would maybe drop out, and this gives them the opportunity to have a degree from the technical college and not a GED. Yes, sir. Which we know that in the workforce, a degree that has come from the technical college is gonna probably look a little bit better than a GED, and I'm not knocking a GED. No. But this gives them that option. But the technical colleges are also at the same time not interested in all of a sudden becoming a factory for high school diplomas. This is a very limited group of students that we're targeting here that will benefit from having this option and being able to get this degree.

97. 0:36:21

    Is that correct? It is correct. But I'll, I'll later on

98. 0:36:26

    And Mark, uh, like if you could... So this is a program for younger adults, you know, in a few years when we phase out the 16 and 17. It's for younger adults who, who need additional support to take those high school stu- uh, degrees, have some coun- or high school classes, have some counseling. But I believe you can obtain a high school degree at an older age. You just won't be in this program. You might be 30 years old.

99. 0:36:57

    Yes, ma'am. That is one of the strengths of what we're able to offer at the Technical College System. So, uh, a- as opposed to just offering GEDs, this, this same legislation in 2020, 2021 allowed for us to offer high school diplomas for our entire adult population. What this legislation does as it moves forward, the 18 to 22-year-old window recognizes the fact if for anybody in the room that has an 18 to 22-year-old, you probably recognize they need a little bit of extra help sometimes. I know mine did. Um, uh, and, and so it allows us to do a little bit of wraparound services to make sure those students who have, for whatever reason, gotten to the age of 18 without a high school diploma can come to one of our technical colleges, still do this extra work with a little bit of wraparound services to help make sure they, they monitor and move through that and, and come out of the back end with a high school diploma as opposed to a, a GED or an other, uh, other opportunity.

100. 0:37:48

     So, and while they're doing that, they not only get that, uh, high school diploma, but as part of the program, they either do two technical college certificates with us or finish a diplom- a diploma or an associate's degree, and that combination of the high school-based courses, uh, as, as the core components plus that technical college component is what allows us to graduate them with a high school diploma.

101. 0:38:08

     Mark, was this the Senate Bill 2 kids that... Is that, was that part of this?

102. 0:38:11

     Very similar. Very s- very, very similar pathway. That's a, that's a big part of it. Yes, sir.

103. 0:38:15

     Okay.

104. 0:38:15

     Mm-hmm.

105. 0:38:15

     Thank you.

106. 0:38:15

     Yeah.

107. 0:38:16

     Representative Barnes.

108. 0:38:20

     Thank you. Uh, thank you, Speaker Pro Tem, for bringing this bill. My question is, um, what if the child was kicked out of school for, like, um, let's say our youth that have cr- been criminalized or something like that? Um, does this still... What if they didn't withdraw?

109. 0:38:39

     Mm-hmm.

110. 0:38:39

     So what if they were kicked out of school or had a teen pregnancy or something like that?

111. 0:38:45

     So the completion schools do take, I mean, you have the right to attend a public school.

112. 0:38:52

     All right.

113. 0:38:52

     And so they do take students who are pregnant. They take students who are, you know, have 15 years old, 16 years old, 17 years old. They're, they're not really con- they're not alternative schools, you know? And that's why-

114. 0:39:09

     Yeah

115. 0:39:09

     ... we got away from the name alternative, where maybe, you know, it's the student you might be a little afraid of, that you don't want to put in the, a, a general population or even in a population of students who are just unmotivated and don't want to be in school.

116. 0:39:23

     Right.

117. 0:39:23

     So it's not an alternative school, but certainly if you're not a danger to the other students, they would be eligible for the completion schools.

118. 0:39:31

     I appreciate that.

119. 0:39:32

     Yeah.

120. 0:39:32

     How long are the wraparound services? Is it just the first year, or is it through their graduation?

121. 0:39:38

     My understanding is it's the whole time you're in the program from 18 until you attain the age of 23, actually.

122. 0:39:45

     Thank you.

123. 0:39:46

     Yeah.

124. 0:39:47

     Representative Holcomb.

125. 0:39:47

     But, but to clarify, 'cause he's, he's a better spokesman, this is a new ca- area for me, you can, without the wraparound services, a 35-year-old can get a degree, a high school degree at a technical college now. And this is a narrow program with wraparound services expanding it statewide. I think that's the biggest message I have, is it's not a pilot anymore because we're not having a, a deadline to end it. We're not, and we're putting it in there.

126. 0:40:19

     There will be a funding formula to help these, provide these services to the students.

127. 0:40:24

     Madam Pro Tem, I'll offer if I can in terms of timeframes would answer some of the question. Most of the students that are participating in this program are an 18-month window to be able to complete it, as opposed to even though we're speaking of a four-year, 18 to 22-year window, this is not four years of college where someone shows up at 18 and finishes at 22. Most of them bring some of the core academic courses, uh, with them to the table. We, we, we get them started on the core academic courses, uh, that are needed to, uh, get to high school graduation, while at the same time they're working through their technical college program.

128. 0:40:57

     Many of those, some of those are as short as you can earn a couple technical college certificates in nine months, if that's what the particular program that you wanna be in. An associate's degree, uh, could take a full two years. One of our diploma programs, uh, typically 16 to 18 months. And so that's the timeframe that most students would participate in one of these programs, so they move through them at a, at a, at a, a more rapid pace than a full four-year, uh, typical high school timeframe, if that helps.

129. 0:41:23

     Thank you. Whip Hawken.

130. 0:41:25

     Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh, I had a few questions, if I may. Um, but Speaker Pro Tem-

131. 0:41:29

     We'll let you know.

132. 0:41:30

     Thank you. Cut me off-

133. 0:41:31

     That's what

134. 0:41:32

     ... uh, as needed. Uh, but, but thank you, Pro Tem, uh, for the bill. Um, I think both the chairman and yourself, um, answered, um, at least one of my questions, but just wanted to clarify. This is only for those at risk of or who have withdrawn from high school. This would in no way impact high school students who are, uh, who are in the dual enrollment program trying to get their high school degree in high school along with getting a technical degree, correct?

135. 0:41:58

     That's right.

136. 0:41:59

     Um, for Mr. Peavy, um, how many 16 and 17-year-olds are there currently, um, enrolled in a program that, um, i- in which they would get their high school degree, uh, or diploma from a technical college?

137. 0:42:13

     So in this program across the state right now, we've got about 900, uh, roughly 900 students right now this semester. About a third to a half of those are k- the 17, uh, 18-year-old timeframe. We don't have as many 16-year-olds. Um, uh, and, and so that number is, is probably about a, a third to a half of those, um, that are, that are 17 that would be, um, in this instance as this bill moves forward, working with us over the next two years. But beyond that, working with the completion schools until they hit that, uh, age of 18.

138. 0:42:43

     I think you told me that a good number of them were in the Albany area that will have a completion school opening in, uh, this fall.

139. 0:42:54

     Uh, Albany area-

140. 0:42:55

     Actually, it is open.

141. 0:42:56

     Yes, ma'am.

142. 0:42:57

     It just opened.

143. 0:42:57

     Yes.

144. 0:42:57

     But, but, but to be clear also in the bill, it's, it, they c- you learn out. E- even in, in, um, to, to 2028, if you're in as a, um, 16 or 17-year-old, you, you would, what I refer to as learn out, you get to finish in that program.

145. 0:43:12

     Yeah. They do.

146. 0:43:13

     You don't have to change.

147. 0:43:15

     With, um, the completion... Currently, do 16 and 17-year-olds have an option? Do they have a choice in terms of, um, a completion school primarily designed for high schoolers and a, a TCSG institution? In which would that choice be limited if beginning in 2028, 16 and 17-year-olds would not be able to, um, participate in a TCSG-based program? Is it a parent's choice type of thing?

148. 0:43:45

     Could you provide some clarity there?

149. 0:43:48

     So, so w- we're, we're both expanding the program and we're narrowing it. I mean, I think that is a fair thing to say. We are narrowing it because to expand it, they want to focus on the students that they can best serve.

150. 0:44:01

     Mm-hmm.

151. 0:44:04

     Um, one reason we delayed it is because we have these completion consortiums opening, you know, imminently, and so we wanted to wait until every student, uh, throughout areas where most of the school systems don't have other... I mean, some school systems already do this. Fulton, Gwinnett, they have these programs now. But then under the Albany area, there aren't school systems that have those options, and so they would not have... I mean, today they have one option that's TCSG.

152. 0:44:36

     The, the Albany or say the Macon area as of the tw- I, not this school year, kind of upcoming, but the '27, '28 school year will have a new option called the completion school in lieu of this option. So guess I, we debated this. Do we try to be an inch deep and a mile wide? Or n- right now it's an inch deep and an inch wide.

153. 0:45:00

     Mm-hmm.

154. 0:45:00

     And we decided let's do, you know, three inches deep statewide and have a robust targeted program that does what they do best. Will some students have o- one less option? Yeah, because Albany just opened their completion school and they have this. But as the completion school, you know, gets really going there, we feel like they'll have a better option, one that is truly, you know, high school based, which, for kids who are, you know, young.

155. 0:45:34

     Uh, could you speak to, um, with these completion schools versus TCSG and, and maybe some of these completion schools generally, are these private organizations, nonprofits? Is this a public-private partnership?

156. 0:45:47

     Oh. A completion school?

157. 0:45:49

     Yes.

158. 0:45:49

     Yeah. And, and so forgive me, 'cause only the people who probably are on the education committee really understand them, just like y'all really understand a lot of things I don't know 'cause I'm not on your committee. Um, they are public schools and they have, the superintendent of each completion school is selected by the superintendents who serve on the board of all the schools that are in that consortium. So if there's, for example, 20 school systems, they each, um, have a voice in choosing a s- a public school superintendent to run...

159. 0:46:25

     It's kinda like a career academy. If you think about that model, sometimes several school systems will go together and run a career academy that may have more than, one or more, uh, locations. That's what a completion school is. And they are fully public, and they, um, the, the board of, which is made up of superintendents, select, send a name to the state school board, they, uh, approve the superintendent. The funding is QBE plus whatever the school systems decide to kinda offer.

160. 0:47:00

     A lot of them offer the facilities. I mean, that's, that's really one of the biggest ways they contribute is they'll have usually at least one location in each county that offers night classes, online classes. They hire a lot of retired and, uh, part-time teachers who work at night. Um, frankly, a lot of times they are, um, the most experienced teachers there are because they're retired.

161. 0:47:25

     Mm-hmm.

162. 0:47:26

     And so yes, it's not a nonprofit. It is a public school.

163. 0:47:30

     Thank you.

164. 0:47:30

     It's, it's called a, um, I believe the name in code is, uh, it's a special school. K- we have a few special schools in code, the deaf and blind schools.

165. 0:47:42

     Mm-hmm.

166. 0:47:42

     This is just a different model that is truly organically grown from the school systems that surround it. And Chris Owen and I divided up the state into seven regions that accommodated the ones that were already in existence, and then in working with different school systems and educators, kind of what regions made sense to work together.

167. 0:48:04

     Uh, s- so, so the underlying question I had w- to, to that one, and I so appreciate the clarification, so it's not necessarily a new appropriation. It'd be more shifting probably from an appropriation to USG to, uh, QBE if, if these are public schools?

168. 0:48:20

     That would be the shift. Uh, oh, I see, if a child decided, "Well, I'm gonna go to..." Yes, they would, it would be from the higher ed budget, regent's budget over to our TCSG budget over to QBE. But, um, it, it is not a large number of students when you consider there's 1.7 million public school students. And, um, I think we would ha- we would see if we did nothing, a migration over time of many of these students going to a completion school anyway as they open.

169. 0:48:54

     But, um- To me, you sort of get the best of both. You let the completion school specialize in the younger students, they specialize in the adult, young adult students.

170. 0:49:05

     Yeah, that, that makes sense. Last question if I may, Mr. Chairman.

171. 0:49:08

     Yeah.

172. 0:49:09

     Yeah. Well, should we vote on that or do I have a motion to-

173. 0:49:11

     I'm learning from y'all too.

174. 0:49:12

     The gentleman can continue.

175. 0:49:13

     Um, on, um, line 168 with respect to wraparound services, which I do think, which I do believe are incredibly important, um, I just wanted a better understanding of how that would operate in which a student shall participate in required wraparound services, um, in which the definition of wraparound services is open-ended to a certain extent. So just wanted to, y- you know, get a better understanding as to going forward, certainly, you know, this will begin in 2028, but to ensure that, you know, if there are additional, uh, requirements that students 18 and up would have to begin, uh, uh, you know, uh, be required to meet, that that would maybe be a little bit clearer, um, I, I think would, could, could be potentially helpful.

176. 0:49:59

     But if you could address that.

177. 0:50:01

     I'll let him handle it.

178. 0:50:01

     Um, what is currently happening is really about counseling opportunities to make sure students as they come in understand what the need or what their requirements are to move through which programs that they can be a part of. And so we really are speaking to the idea of counseling services and guidance services and directing students to understand this is the pathway you'll need to be on, um, with a, with a little bit of time management and prodding along as needed, um, to make sure they stay on task and they see the, the goal at the end of the, end of the game as they move forward. And so it's not as structured.

179. 0:50:32

     Obviously, we don't have a, a high school building with a handful of high school counselors in it, but it's that, that counseling piece that we speak to really primarily, uh, from those wraparound services to help those students and, and their, and their parents as they help them b- b- become part of those, understand the pathway and how to continue moving down the pathway.

180. 0:50:50

     So, so wraparound services is, is just more counseling, not, um... When, when I hear wraparound services in a healthcare context, it's, you know, housing, you know, nutrition, things of that, behavioral health. Uh, but this, in this context, it's just more limited to con- uh, guidance counseling.

181. 0:51:05

     That, that, that is correct, Mr. Park. We, we, we would love to be all things to all people here, but, uh, w- understand that we, we're not.

182. 0:51:11

     Of course.

183. 0:51:11

     Uh, and, and our strength is helping move through these educational programs, and that's really the, the piece that we provide in terms of guidance and counseling, so.

184. 0:51:18

     Thank you.

185. 0:51:19

     Whitt Park is a valued member of this committee, and we hate to lose him to the US Senate.

186. 0:51:26

     Thank you, Whitt Park. Uh, the, to, to my right, uh, former mayor of Savannah, Representative Edna Jackson. Recognize for a question.

187. 0:51:35

     Oh, not statement. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I guess not being in the, the, the educational system, there are several things that I'm not quite there yet, and that is the criteria of who they are, who will get into the program. And, um, it seems like, you know, when, when you're in the public school system, you know you got, you have to have certain grades, certain this, and certain of those other things, you know, other areas.

188. 0:52:06

     Will this operate similarly in this, in what you're trying to do here? Because I'm seeing all of these statements. Or will this, these be the criterias just for this school, for this kind of school, wraparound school? Or am I missing the boat?

189. 0:52:24

     So, so when a, when a, when a, when a person hits the age of 18-

190. 0:52:29

     Mm-hmm

191. 0:52:30

     ... and when I say 18, I realize some people, I know, I think some of my kids, you know, were almost 19 when they graduated just 'cause one of them we h- held back one summer. But it, when they reach 18, if they are at risk of dropping or have dropped out, they have, they will, they have currently and will have two options. They can just go get a G... Well, they can never get a GED or get a high school degree. They can just go get a job, hopefully, or they can try to pass the test to get the GED and s- enroll at the technical college and start taking classes if they want to.

192. 0:53:09

     But if they really decide, I think a lot of folks have gr- regrets when they get a little bit older and they think, "You know, I really would like to have a high school degree," they can work on getting a high school degree, which is very different than just going to technical college.

193. 0:53:23

     Mm-hmm.

194. 0:53:23

     I mean, you take, you gotta take English classes and maybe biology or whatever to satisfy all the 24 credits that are required by the State Board of Education to get a high school degree. And as Martin Peavy said, the director said, you, you also would work towards certificates so that you can get a, a real job or s- other training, right? Um, the counseling is designed to take these younger people who have some motivation here, they wanna get a high school degree, and help them stay on track.

195. 0:53:56

     'Cause they obviously had issues with that before, they wouldn't have dropped out. So it's to kind of wrap around, help them with time management. You know, s- some of these kids just need someone to tell them, "Take this class, then take this class. What's your work schedule look like? Okay, you could take this and this." And but they, they don't have to go this route. There, and there's not a requirement other... The requirement is you don't have a high school degree.

196. 0:54:22

     All right. Okay.

197. 0:54:23

     You have essentially dropped out.

198. 0:54:25

     Yes, and show up at the door of one of our technical colleges that has this program, and then we'll take it from there.

199. 0:54:30

     Yeah. But it's, this is very limited in the state. Just know this is not available to every student now. Um, are there five locations?

200. 0:54:37

     There are five, yes, ma'am.

201. 0:54:38

     There's only five locations. The goal here is to extend it throughout the state, not necessarily at every branch, but ev- so that every student could, that is, would fit this would, could avail themselves of this and have some support to get over the finish line with a high school degree.

202. 0:54:59

     Okay. Thank you.

203. 0:55:04

     Vice Chairman Corbett.

204. 0:55:06

     Thank you, uh, Pro Tem, and thank you, Mr. Peavy. Uh, to our, our governor's floor leader's point, the idea of, of a, a diploma and, and certifications and things that come through TCSG is, is certainly inspirational. I, I... Uh, question and a statement. Statement, thank you, thank you, thank you, because I know you and I watch how you actively look for pockets and opportunities to help every single kid out there-

205. 0:55:32

     Right

206. 0:55:32

     ... get to avail themselves of a great education, and this is the best possible example I can think of. Um, you know, the key to success, I'm sure for young people and, and I, I, being a man, I, I relate more to young, young people that way, but, but, um, key to success is having a sense of direction and a sense of purpose. And, uh, and so I'm, I'm very eager to see 10 years from now, because I can't do many things very well, but there are some things I do very well. I can predict the future, and I know that there are gonna be extraordinary success stories that come out of this.

207. 0:56:03

     And I imagine the, how bleak the idea of a kid dropping out of school at 16 or whatever to the possibility of being at TCSG, uh, in, in a technical school and, and, and getting exposed to all those various opportunities for different careers, uh, including entrepreneurial opportunities. And I'm just inspired to think about the great success stories that I know are coming from this. Are we gonna be able to keep up and keep track of some of these tremendous stories so that when we're 10 years out looking back, we'll, without, you know, privacy issues, knowing, you know, where these kids end up?

208. 0:56:42

     Yeah, I think it's-

209. 0:56:44

     We, we, we have a report in here.

210. 0:56:45

     Yeah.

211. 0:56:45

     And I just, from my extensive experience, Mr. Peavy will tell us good stories. I just know that to be the case.

212. 0:56:51

     You should have-

213. 0:56:51

     All you gotta do is ask, Mr. Chairman, I'm happy to share.

214. 0:56:54

     Emphasize it. We really debated on many of the things y'all are bringing up, you know. How broad do we do it with five locations? Is it always just gonna be a pilot program available to just a few students? You know, is, well, how do we take the best parts of the program, maybe invest more money with a, through the funding formula, to take the best parts of it throughout the state for every kid? Because I've seen pilot programs over the years. I've never been a fan of them. I've come around more, 'cause what I oftentimes found was pilot programs were something that was never gonna go statewide, but somebody was able to tuck it in with a bill passed or something, and eventually gets phased out.

215. 0:57:37

     And I, I do think this has merit to, to take it statewide. And, uh, yes, we are honing the focus, which means we're narrowing it somewhat, but I think we're taking the most important part of it so that we can take it statewide. And I certainly share y'all's commitment to adding more options, more opportunities for kids, not less. And, you know, if we, if we need to come back and revisit in a few years, you know, let's do that.

216. 0:58:07

     But I, I, I think it's, the time is now to let kids who are 18 to 22 have more attention, more focus. They've already dropped out, and, uh, they don't have... Most of them do not wanna go to a completion school, although they can. You can go to a completion school by federal law, I mean, until, I think it's the age of 22.

217. 0:58:28

     Mm-hmm.

218. 0:58:28

     But they don't want to. They're adults. They wanna go to a place where it's adult education. And so anyway.

219. 0:58:36

     We have, uh, two more questions. Uh, Chairman Carpenter.

220. 0:58:38

     I'm ready for a motion, Chairman.

221. 0:58:40

     All right. Well, Chairman, uh- ... to Dr. Clark, she's gonna get the last spot. I say apple doctor.

222. 0:58:45

     Um, thank you, Mr. Chair. Uh, one, uh, last question as I was thinking about it and, and hearing the rationale. Um, right now the completion school thing is kind of being really developed, and that's why we have the delayed s- start to this not being, um, available to 16 and 17-year-olds. Um, but I'm just kind of curious about the number of completion schools and, like, where they're located, because I do feel like we have students that might have a TCSG school very close, and I'm thinking of Gwinnett County, like a TCSG school that's very close to them, but even if Gwinnett decided to enter into one of these consortiums, that completion school may not...

223. 0:59:30

     I mean, 'cause, I mean, Gwinnett is far from Gwinnett.

224. 0:59:32

     So what-

225. 0:59:32

     So

226. 0:59:33

     No, that is

227. 0:59:37

     And I'm in Fulton. And I'm in F- Fulton.

228. 0:59:38

     Yeah.

229. 0:59:38

     So I can, I will get you the information on, of the current completion schools. They have location... They don't just have one or two locations. It may be 20 counties, and every county uses their high school. So they have many locations.

230. 0:59:56

     Multiple.

231. 0:59:56

     We call it a school, and I've always kind of had to grapple with that. It's not a school. It's, it's, it's a consortium of schools-

232. 1:00:04

     A network of schools, okay

233. 1:00:05

     ... that are run by one superintendent selected by all these schools. Uh, multiple locations.

234. 1:00:12

     Got it. Okay.

235. 1:00:13

     Um, and so I know Gwinnett currently participates on some level-

236. 1:00:17

     Yeah, we have Gwinnett

237. 1:00:18

     ... with, uh, Foothills. And, um, Fulton does not. But remember, currently, like, we probably couldn't easily take it statewide if we, because it is unwieldy to have the younger students in here. By kind of narrowing it, their focus, it, it makes it pretty easy to take it statewide because it's adult learners-

238. 1:00:43

     Right

239. 1:00:43

     ... throughout the state. But the, um, I will get you the information on the current completion schools so that you-

240. 1:00:49

     Thank you

241. 1:00:49

     ... can see there are many locations throughout.

242. 1:00:52

     That would be helpful. Thank you.

243. 1:00:54

     Th- thank you, Madam Pro Tem. That, that concludes our, um, questions. We had no one to, to sign up to speak on this, as, as we were aware, and I think you, you and I both were just delivered the, the copy of the bill right before the meeting, so we're gonna carry you over and, but we'll get you back as soon as possible. I wanna ask one question of Mr. Peavy, um, to you. On, on lines 213, it says no later than January 1st, 2028, such rules, and, and we're going into, you know, effect July to 2028.

244. 1:01:24

     I mean, it does give a legi- not that we'll look over the rules here in this committee, but I, I just question there, you know, should that be fast-forwarded six more months? I mean-

245. 1:01:33

     To what?

246. 1:01:34

     Just for the... I don't know. I'm just asking. I mean, just administratively, should the rules be ready six months before you're actually gonna implement the program?

247. 1:01:42

     Uh, Mr. Chairman, I'll tell you, we're already thinking-

248. 1:01:44

     Oh-

249. 1:01:44

     ... about that, and it, and as, and as soon as this body-

250. 1:01:47

     Well, yeah, that, that-

251. 1:01:47

     ... sees fit to pass this and the governor signs it, we will be in the process of working on that.

252. 1:01:51

     Well, there's no- certainly nothing that would ke- keep you from doing it prior to the date.

253. 1:01:54

     Yes, and we, we will, we will not wait till, uh, June 1st-

254. 1:01:56

     Ab- absolutely

255. 1:01:56

     ... of 2028 to start working on those.

256. 1:01:58

     Absolutely. I think you got a good proposition, Madam Pro Tem-

257. 1:02:00

     Thank you

258. 1:02:00

     ... and we'll have you back very soon. I thank you very much.

259. 1:02:03

     Thank you.

260. 1:02:03

     If anybody has any questions, because we will be prepared to, to move forward on this at the next-

261. 1:02:08

     If you have any, just catch me, and I'll try to get that information.

262. 1:02:09

     Yes, ma'am. Thank you very much. Senator Burns. And you, do you, uh, have anybody you need to come with?

263. 1:02:19

     Yeah, I need, uh, Dr. Shook to join me please.

264. 1:02:21

     Yes, sir.

265. 1:02:26

     Dr. Kirk Shook is the second director of the Georgia Nonpublic Postsecondary Education Commission.

266. 1:02:40

     Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

267. 1:02:41

     Yes, sir.

268. 1:02:41

     Thank you, committee. We are looking at Senate Bill 400. That is LC61-0369S. Uh, this is a agency bill from the Georgia Nonpublic Postsecondary Education Commission. Many of you, uh, may be familiar with the commission, but just to refresh your memory, these are, uh, non-accredited, non-degree granting schools across our state. There are over 350 of them.

269. 1:03:13

     They service 81,000, more than 81,000 Georgians. They have an annual tuition, uh, of over $855 million. So majority of the students are Georgia students. There are some out-of-state students. And most of their education is presence-based, but there's been a move more toward the online world. So we'll, we'll take a look at the bill in a moment. The objective of this legislation is to strengthen the oversight capacity of the Georgia Nonpublic Postsecondary Education Commission so that they can ensure that s- that Georgia students receive a quality education that is consistent with the program's design and, and the program is fully delivered, and it's not, there's no interruption.

270. 1:04:00

     So it gives certain powers to the commission that they have, uh, actually chosen to, uh, implement in rule form in many cases by their board. But it allows the commission to deny the ability to operate to what is referred to as a known bad actor. That would be someone who in the past has come in and offered a program, and then, for whatever reason, abandoned the program, and now they may be coming back and saying, "We want to do this again." And that, that would not necessarily be in the best interest of Georgians.

271. 1:04:34

     Uh, it allows the, uh, commission to approve or deny courses and programs, and allows them to do that administratively without administrative review but with an appeal to, uh, the superior court. It really protects students. It's designed to protect students from abrupt closures where you have a situation where a, a, a school may become insolvent. And it, uh, enhances the tuition guarantee trust fund to make sure that those students who may have paid in a tuition and not had received a delivered service can be made whole.

272. 1:05:14

     And it protects student records. And, um, many of you may say, "Well, who are these folks," right? "Who are these schools that we're talking about?" And I, I, uh, I go to their website. I appreciate that. I just want you to realize that in my district, uh, I wanna just read out for you the names of the schools in Augusta, Georgia.

273. 1:05:38

     Let me pull it up. You can do it in your district.

274. 1:05:49

     Hold on.

275. 1:05:52

     The inter- internet around here is kind of slow.

276. 1:05:54

     It is. It's, uh... It's a little slow. I've gotta find the right thing here, Kirk.

277. 1:06:03

     I had it up a minute ago.

278. 1:06:07

     Well, while he, he's looking, I can-

279. 1:06:08

     While I'm looking for my list of my schools-

280. 1:06:10

     Yeah, I can talk about some of those. So as, as he mentioned, uh, most of the schools that we oversee are unaccredited. Um, uh, but they, you know, they range from mom-and-pop type organizations that may have just a handful of students all the way up to, uh, some of the ones that you see, uh, advertised on television, DeVry, Strayer, and those things, so the bigger, uh, accredited organizations. Um, but, you know, the majority are, uh, unaccredited. So, like, in Augusta-

281. 1:06:37

     Augusta

282. 1:06:38

     ... yeah, there you go.

283. 1:06:38

     The Augusta Area Dietetic Internship, the Augusta Dental Assistant School, the Augusta Institute of Dental Assisting, the Augusta Opportunities Industrial Center, the Augusta Real Estate Educators, the Augusta School of Massage, the School of Radiology at Piedmont Augusta Hospital. So these are, these are credible institutions, but they are non-degree granting, non-accredited. So let's quickly look at the bill. If you'll look at the bill in s- in, um, section one. Section one, lines 18 through 30 defines distance education.

284. 1:07:12

     In the past, that was not a, a, a really a primary mechanism for, uh, course delivery, so now it's becoming more prevalent. We define that in section two. It sure- it codifies the rule-making process that says it disallows unaccredited institutions from offering degrees. Uh, so that if you're an unaccredited institution, you cannot offer an associate degree or a bachelor's degree. You would offer a certificate or, um, um-

285. 1:07:45

     A credential

286. 1:07:45

     ... a credential, some credential. So it does allow for candidacy, so we have some schools that are going through candidacy, and that does allow them to have a path from the unaccredited to the accredited. Section three is an, is a key component. The way the, uh, legislation is worded, institutions will pay in one-tenth of 1% of tuition into the Tuition Guarantee Trust Fund. Some of the larger institutions, this could be a substantial sum, and it allows for them to either, to fulfill that, uh, guarantee either through participation in the Tuition Guarantee Trust Fund or through a bond or through a irrevocable letter of credit.

287. 1:08:27

     So that's what section three does. It allows the irrevocable letter of credit to be the surety as opposed to a bond. Uh, again, we talked about bad actors. It's section four. These are people who we know in the past have come to our state, uh, failed to deliver a credible service, and, uh, wish to return. And then section five deals with program course-level denials and not requiring it to go through an administrative review process, but if there's an appeal, would go directly to superior court, which, uh, facilitates administration and saves a great deal of money.

288. 1:09:02

     Section six deals with student records. Student records. The commission is a repository of records for all closed school students, so their transcripts. So if, if a school abruptly closes, the commission is responsible for taking custody of those records and being able to provide a transcript. What courses did the student take? What diplomas or credentials did the student earn? And unfortunately, sometimes with an abrupt closure, um, the commission doesn't get word of it until after the fact, and they, they have to go search closets and boxes for this information.

289. 1:09:41

     So what section six does is it, for new applications, it's, uh, moving toward a digital record system, and it also allows them in certain situations to have early access to those records before they're closed. And then finally in section seven, it ensures that the Tuition Guarantee Trust Fund, um, has sufficient funds to indemnify students who unfortunately, uh, were caught in a situation where their education was abruptly terminated and the institutions failed to deliver.

290. 1:10:13

     Again, um, they can have a surety bond, or they can do a, a letter of credit, or they pay one-tenth of 1% of tuition, uh, each year with a minimum of $250. And there's also a key component there. Sometimes these schools might close, and the principals of the schools, you know, the owners of the schools may not honor the, uh, tuition refund. And it gives the commission an opportunity to, uh, uh, to seek out that, uh, to seek recourse from the principals and ensure that the fund itself is not, uh, in any way abused.

291. 1:10:48

     So I'm gonna turn it over to Dr. Shook and let him make comments, and then we'll be happy to take questions.

292. 1:10:54

     Yeah, I'll just open up the floor for questions. I think the senator did a good job of explaining the bill.

293. 1:11:00

     You, you ready for some questions?

294. 1:11:02

     Sure.

295. 1:11:02

     Let me ask the senator. When, when you said $250, is that, uh, $250 per student?

296. 1:11:07

     Per year, per school.

297. 1:11:09

     Per year, per school.

298. 1:11:09

     So it's one-tenth of 1% of tuition.

299. 1:11:13

     Which would be a thousand since-

300. 1:11:14

     Thousand

301. 1:11:15

     ... all right. So a million dollars, you'd pay $1,000. A million dollars tuition, you'd pay $1,000.

302. 1:11:19

     Correct.

303. 1:11:19

     Okay.

304. 1:11:20

     That's into the, the trust though.

305. 1:11:21

     Right, no, right. Yeah, yeah.

306. 1:11:22

     And right now the trust fund's balance is-

307. 1:11:24

     Uh, about 5.5 million.

308. 1:11:26

     Okay. Fair- fair enough. I just, we got-

309. 1:11:28

     Yeah

310. 1:11:28

     ... what-

311. 1:11:29

     And, and I think the interesting thing is the trust fund is there to guarantee that a student who is enrolled in one of the schools is held harmless.

312. 1:11:37

     Not l- l- not left high and dry. Yes, sir. Um, if you'd take questions, the governor's floor leader, Ma- uh, Representative Gambill.

313. 1:11:43

     Thank you, Chairman Burns. Good to see you.

314. 1:11:45

     You too.

315. 1:11:45

     Um, just a quick question, and I, you, you may can help enlighten me, but, a- and I support the bill and what you're trying to do. What about like a Bible college that offered a degree in Bible? Can you help elaborate a little bit on what that... Would that now be just a certificate-type program or...?

316. 1:12:01

     So this, um, the degree granting, uh, or disallow of degrees would be for authorized institutions. So I should've mentioned that earlier. Uh, so there's, there's two groups of, uh, two categories I should say, uh, of oversight. There is the authorized schools. That's the 358 currently today. We go out. We ensure their finances are good, their programs are good. Uh, they have site visits, annual approvals, all of that. Uh, they're the ones that pay into the Tuition Guarantee Trust Fund.

317. 1:12:34

     Um, they're the ones that we have the most concern over. Um, the other group of schools, about 250, are those that are considered exempt from authorization. So they don't have to follow the full process that the authorized schools do. And so there are several categories that, that are listed out in legislation that says what those are. So flight school is one. Tax preparation school is one. Uh, religious-only schools, uh, are that.

318. 1:12:59

     Okay.

319. 1:12:59

     So that means, uh, uh, and it's very explicit in the code of what it says. So a religious institution that offers religious-only programming, so they can't offer any secular program, a- and they cannot accept any public funds.

320. 1:13:13

     Okay.

321. 1:13:13

     So that would mean any Title IV funds, anything like that.

322. 1:13:16

     Sure.

323. 1:13:16

     So if one of those institutions, which there's a lot in this state, um, they would not be precluded from, uh, this because the de- degree prohibition, uh, a- and having to be accredited only applies to authorized institutions.

324. 1:13:30

     Thank you so much. At the appropriate time, Chairman, I'm ready to make a motion.

325. 1:13:34

     I'm gonna remind the committee, we, we're gonna hear everything twice. We, we love the senator as we did the, the mayor pro tem. I look forward to it. I'm, I try to stick by the, the ... These bills, I have several people, I mean, with respect to the processes, y'all saw, many of you may have just seen some of them, certainly the last bill for the first time today. So it is not that, uh, sometimes we have bills that will, will sail right through on, on one hearing, but I, I wanna give the committee the opportunity to do that. But I think you've got a, a, a fan over there, Senator- I hope so ... Senator Barnes. They want me. Uh, Dr. Clark has a question for you.

326. 1:14:04

     Of course. Uh, thank you, Mr. Chair. Um, and thank you for the bill. Um, the, my question has to do with schools that might lose their accreditation, and they've lost their accreditation, and it might take a little while for them to get that accreditation back. And when they do get that accreditation back, how does Section 4 of this bill impact those situations? So we are already dealing with some of these situations via rules.

327. 1:14:35

     So part of Section 4 is to take what we're doing in rule making now and ensure that we have some language and code to be able to attach to that. Uh, so we have a process now that, you know, if you're to, to look, it's called Policy 14, where that rule lists out all of the, uh, parameters for, uh, basis- basically, you know, candidacy status, you know, the timeframe in which we allow, uh, folks to be able to get accredited and all that. So there is a path to accreditation if something like that were to happen.

328. 1:15:08

     Uh, but we don't want ... I'll, I'll give you my experience. Where this first came in, we started addressing this in rule making in 2020. Uh, you know, we had some folks in the state at the time either offering or looking to offer doctoral degrees that were unaccredited. And we realized that, hey, you know, that can't transfer, right? You know, you won't be able to get a credential. You won't be able to get a license. So we need to try to, uh, fence this in a little bit. And so what happened is that those schools decide, "Okay, we're not gonna do that," or many of them move the accredited route so that they could start, uh, doing those things.

329. 1:15:42

     So we've had a path forward for six years now. And yes, thank you. And so I guess what I'm saying is like, so the way I read this, some of those schools could have been considered "bad actors." And if, and if I read this correctly, they can't come back. Or am I just misreading this? Yeah. Uh, so a bad actor, you, you know, it defines it a little bit more. Uh, and the reason being, we already have in our code basically a bad actor, but it says someone who, um ...

330. 1:16:15

     And basically at the discretion of the commission. This gave a little bit more teeth to it. So when we're considering bad actors, to again give you just a little bit of context, um, our agency in the state of Georgia, we have counterparts all across the country. Uh, and so when we meet together in conferences and those things, we share information. Like, you know, uh, you know, Jasmine Clark and, is over in Texas, and she's, uh, you know, she's taking all these students' money and then running off, and then she wants to go to Florida, and then she wants to go to Georgia. We- we've had instances like that. So this is just giving us a bit more strength to say, "Hey," that if you have done that, which under our code we can currently, uh, enforce now.

331. 1:16:51

     But what this could say is that, uh, uh, you know ... No, no, no, this is not Jasmine Clark's school. This is Jasmine Clark's brother's school, but she's really the one operating behind it. And so this just allows us to be able to say, "Hey, if you've done things like that," you know, accreditation loss is, is not, not one of those things, but you have left students high and dry. You have, uh, you know, run off with their money. You have, you know, defrauded them in some way. This gives us the ability to not only just go, uh, uh, or prevent the bad actor from operating in the state of Georgia, but any of those folks that might be ancillary involved a- and when it's really just a shell of the entity.

332. 1:17:32

     It's really that person that's operating, but they have somebody else's name on the documents. And we see that happening quite a lot across the country. Thank you. Representative Holland, to your left. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Chairman Burns. I'm learning a lot through this process about these schools, so I wanna make sure I understand. Do we currently have unaccredited education institutions that are offering bachelor's degrees, and that's what we're trying to prohibit from this bill? Or we're just trying to- Not to my knowledge. Okay. Well, there's, there's a couple that's still working through the process from when we initially established in rule making that these are, we don't wanna do this in the state of Georgia.

333. 1:18:11

     And we were one of only, like, a handful that allowed unaccredited degrees at the time when we took this up. So many of those, as I said, either have already gotten accredited or decided, we're not gonna go that route. We're just gonna offer cer- certificates and stay unaccredited. But there are a couple that are working through the process currently to get accredited. And so that's the, the pathway we were talking about before that we want to have in place. But we don't want it to be you come in Georgia and you offer unaccredited degrees forever and always. Understood. And so then is it, is there a possibility that there are a group of students who right now are in an unaccredited education program believing they're going to receive a degree, that once this is passed would no longer have that pathway to a degree?

334. 1:18:51

     Does that make sense? Well, the couple of institutions, I'm thinking of actually just one in mind, is, um, there are disclaimers that they're given to this. They're not paying tuition at this time. It's a whole weird model. But they are working toward accreditation so that they can do what other accredited schools do as well. But it, you know ... I don't wanna get into too many of the weeds of that particular institution, but I believe that all the, the students who are there now, it's a pretty small number, know what they're doing, know what they're getting into, and know why they're doing it.

335. 1:19:28

     Understood. So if I'm interpreting this correctly, this is more to prevent the possibility of an unaccredited school- In the future ... offering a degree rather than, uh, correct something that's currently happening. Correct. And we get, uh ... 'Cause we're already in the process of, of correcting some of that. But we do get folks coming to us from other states saying-

336. 1:19:46

     Hey, we would like to do this thing here. And, um, no, you can't do that. That's what we have in rules. But this strengthens it up because it, again, it will be, we'll be able to tie directly the rule that we've already been operating under to a piece of code to say, you know, if anybody ever took us to court, it'd give us just a little bit more strength there, so.

337. 1:20:05

     That is helpful. Thank you so much.

338. 1:20:07

     Uh, it is my understanding, and, and, uh, Dr. Shook, you correct me if I, uh, mi- mis- misinterpret the, uh, commission's position. The objective is for the commission to have oversight over non-degree granting institutions. And, and as the, uh, executive director pointed out, some may still be in place, but they need to, the students need to understand that this is a non-accredited program, that it does not lead to transferability to an accredited program, and it is not necessarily, would not qualify for licensure in certain professional fields.

339. 1:20:43

     Let's say nursing, okay? Which there's a, a b- a good bit of activity in that space. Um, and I've experienced students who came to an accredited institution and, and thought they were bringing in appropriate credit and credentials to progress in an accredited program and, and were disappointed to find that out, that that was not the case. So part of this legislation is to clarify that and to strengthen the commission's oversight ability.

340. 1:21:16

     Representative Barnes, to my, to my left, your right.

341. 1:21:19

     Thank you. Um-

342. 1:21:20

     Senator, good to see you.

343. 1:21:23

     Hi.

344. 1:21:23

     Wrong Senator.

345. 1:21:25

     Um, I was just wanting to know if since we're doing, like, massage schools and stuff, if, like, uh, cosmetology schools and, uh, fall under barber schools, um, also fall under this.

346. 1:21:37

     So that's part of the exempt from authorization category.

347. 1:21:40

     Oh, okay.

348. 1:21:40

     Uh, one of the other, uh, categories in our law, uh, says that if an entity is overseen by another state agency, so that would be, um, the Board of Cosmetology.

349. 1:21:52

     State Board of Cosmetology.

350. 1:21:53

     Uh-huh. They oversee all of their cosmetology schools, and they handle that. So we don't have oversight of them. Uh, back m- about 10 years ago, our, our agency did.

351. 1:22:04

     Okay.

352. 1:22:04

     But there was a transfer of them all to Board of Cosmetology. Now, Board of Massage is a little bit different. Board of Massage still oversees, uh, programming and those things. But in their rules, they require those schools to come to us first.

353. 1:22:17

     Oh, okay.

354. 1:22:17

     So it's a dual oversight. They have to come to us, get approved, authorized to operate, and then the Board of Massage allows them to, uh, be able to move forward. So that is in their rulemaking, but they could be exempt if, uh, the Board of Massage changed their rules

355. 1:22:32

     And what about-

356. 1:22:32

     ... in policy

357. 1:22:32

     ... like private, um, trade schools?

358. 1:22:36

     Yeah. The, those-

359. 1:22:37

     Welding

360. 1:22:37

     ... are the ones we oversee, right?

361. 1:22:38

     Welding.

362. 1:22:39

     Uh, those, uh, so welding-

363. 1:22:41

     Ele-

364. 1:22:41

     ... allied health, yeah, electrician

365. 1:22:43

     UEI, does that work?

366. 1:22:45

     UE- UEI is an ex- example of-

367. 1:22:47

     So that would-

368. 1:22:47

     They have two campuses. They are authorized institutions.

369. 1:22:50

     Oh, okay. That's a step in the right direction, and thank you.

370. 1:22:54

     And, and then for someone who, who co-locates on this committee in regulated industries, which does handle legislation for the Board of Cosmetology, you should come by for one of those meetings when they're arguing about, when, when, when... I won't say when they're arguing. When they're discussing-

371. 1:23:07

     Discussing

372. 1:23:07

     ... what should and should not be covered by the Board of Cosmetology, that is, uh, quite, quite the entertaining conversation. Whitmire.

373. 1:23:16

     Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, can I just say as a, as an aside, I do appreciate, um, your, uh, policy of ensuring that you have two hearings on every bill. I think that's good government, uh, provides the public transparency and notice as to what's moving out of your committees. Just wanted to thank you for that. Also happy to second the motion from my, from my colleagues down, down that row in terms of both of these pieces of legislation at the appropriate time next week.

374. 1:23:38

     Yeah. Yes, sir.

375. 1:23:39

     Um-

376. 1:23:39

     And, and you, you, I thank you for th- for those words. You just have to apologize for the senator for him- ... not gonna come back. But we'd, we'd love to see the senator. Whitmire.

377. 1:23:46

     Uh, Chairman Burns, thank you for the bill. Um, I, I had, you know, may... A- and I certainly appreciate the education on this matter as well. Um, I had a few maybe technical questions or areas in which further, uh, education would be helpful for me. Um, on line 71 and 72, um, does this create kind of a, a loophole where we're saying that non-accredited agencies can provide degrees so long as they're in the process of trying to become accredited?

378. 1:24:16

     Yeah, and yes, and that's pretty typical in other states. So if you look at other states and how they operate, there is some type of a pathway to a- accreditation-

379. 1:24:26

     Accreditation

380. 1:24:26

     ... because, you know, as, um, uh, the chairman over here well knows from his president of college, there are, um, uh, accreditors require you to have a certain number of students, a certain number of programs. You have to have outcome data, all of those things before they will, uh, allow for accreditation. So there, there is a pathway. Uh, we, we have to create some type of a pathway if we want to see, uh, schools be able to move in this route if they want to. Um, and there, you know, for career schools in particular, there are ways to do it, you know?

381. 1:24:59

     Because if you are offering, uh, you're in a career school and you're just offering certificates, you can get those programs. Those are authorized. There's, we have a ton of them that we oversee. Uh, and you can do that in the state of Georgia. And then if you wanna, uh, you know, move from, say, uh, you know, a allied health program in, like, medical assistant and, uh, phlebotomy and things like that, and you wanna move into an associates of science in XYZ, um, you can prove those, uh, programs as unaccredited under our current laws and those things.

382. 1:25:33

     So there are pathways particularly for career schools. Makes it a little bit more difficult when you're not talking about career schools, but through rulemaking, we have established kind of a process that they can take, uh, and still satisfy this new, uh Additional code section. And, and on line 72 when we're saying it has to be an accrediting, accrediting agency recognized by the US Department of Education or its successor, is that increasing the threshold? Is it- Yes, because there are accrediting bodies that are not recognized- That's right ... by the US Department of Education, and we don't wanna get into that business. So, uh, you know, the standard in the industry is that if it's recognized by the US Department of Education, then we would accept that, and that's the way other states typically do as well.

383. 1:26:12

     And is, or success- or its successor, are those terms in the event the US Department of Education's abolished or...? Correct. Li- last year, uh, Senator Hatchett, uh, I don't know if you recall this, but went through all of the Georgia Code, and anywhere it said the US Department of Education, they had added in the word successor. So, uh, this was, we just figured we wanted to add this in here now too just in the event that we need to- Makes sense ... to cover our bases. Appreciate that clarification. On, on line 79 where we are creating, um, an additional option, or, or section three- Yeah ...

384. 1:26:44

     where an irrevocable letter of credit could be done in lieu of a surety bond, uh, could you help me better understand kind of, you know, is that increasing the threshold, lowering the threshold? And then, uh, it speaks to, you know, in the event that, you know, a student is harmed or a school closes, is there a difference with respect to repayment or recoupment, uh, if it's a letter of credit versus a surety bond? Yes. Uh, so this again is something that's standard in the industry, and I'll... This section three in particular is a, uh, oversight that happened in, in '21, the last time we had a major overhaul of our, uh, code.

385. 1:27:21

     Um, we used to have bond or letter of credit. The letter of credit got left out when we were, uh, when the language was being updated. So this is basically taking us back to where we were prior to 2021. But, uh, you know, we have had a few precipitous closures since I've been executive director, since 2019. Two big ones, Argosy University and Art Institute of Atlanta, uh, both had surety bonds in place at the time of their closure. Uh, for Argosy University, it took us over a year to be able to collect from the surety because, uh, you may or may not know, a, a surety is basically, um, a bond that comes from an insurance company.

386. 1:27:59

     And if you've ever dealt with insurance in any other capacity, you know how difficult it is to get them to pay. Um, so we had to get the attorney general's office involved in both those instances to be able to, to have the payout. A letter of credit, uh, comes through a bank or a financial institution. Um, this is what, this is the, when an adverse action is taken on a school by the federal, uh, department of education, they require a letter of credit. A surety bond is not part of it. The reason being is because a letter of credit can be called upon basically the next day. Uh, and so there is not fighting with attorneys and those types of things.

387. 1:28:31

     Um, and as far as for the institution being able to get it, uh, it depends on your credit worth- worthiness and all of those things, so I can't speak to each specific scenario. Uh, but for some institutions, a bond would be easier to get. Uh, for some, a letter of credit would be easier to get. But that's just, it depends on the specific institution. Thank you, sir.

388. 1:28:52

     President Jackson. I've... Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was, I was just thinking, because I've seen so many schools come up, or buildings come up, and then all of a sudden they're all gone, gone away. And I guess I just need a little bit more information. Um, I believe in education, I believe in our young people being educated, but maybe I'm a, I'm a little slow in this time because, um, I want our kids in school, and maybe I'm missing something because I haven't read the entire document.

389. 1:29:34

     And yeah, I, I just want, I like guarantees that these things are going to work, and you've given a lot of thought to them. So I, I'm not going to say yay or nay. I re- I need to read to get some of this going. And right now, I don't think I'm ready, and I'm just being honest with you. Yeah. And i- if you would like to schedule a meeting, you know, offline over the next week before we come back to another hearing, uh, reach out and let me know. I'll give you my card, and we can, we can talk through any, any questions you might have.

390. 1:30:06

     That, that would be great. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Last question, uh, Vice Chairman Carter Barrett. Thank you, gentlemen. Um, um, I'm very intrigued with section four, uh, lines 87 through, uh, 110, uh, that gives the latitude to sort of, uh, the discretion- Discretion ... for the executive director to weed out those bad actors. Are you available to have a conversation? There have been a lot of bad actors- Absolutely ... sort of have come to light in the last year, and I've been, I've gotten some response from some, some folks that- Yeah ... oh, we can't stop that bad actor from operating because they haven't been convicted or whatever.

391. 1:30:40

     But, but this obviously, there's obv- there, there's some gray area, right? Right. Where people could push back, and I'm sure that there'll be an appeals process or something for you to- Yes. Uh, and, and I'll, I will say that, you know, no matter what part you're talking about of what we do, really in all of government, but certainly I've been told by attorneys in our law, uh, if you don't like a decision that's been made, there's always a recourse, right? And in many of the cases, you can go through administrative hearing and then superior court and, you know, one of the changes we're having is just go directly to the superior court. But there's always an appeals process that occurs, and so there's no unilateral decision that can't be appealed, um, that's- I, I appreciate the language.

392. 1:31:18

     I'm looking- Yeah ... forward to figuring out there are 100 other places to apply similar language. Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, I, I was gonna say, to be, to be clear, the, the vice chairman had shared his, his words. I mean, I don't think he's necessarily directing it toward your, the area that you oversee. Right. There may be some other areas in the state that if you, if you put a little human knowledge into the- Mm-hmm ... the, the Bright Letter law, that it might be- Yeah ... in the service of the public- Right ... and, and providing due process to people if they don't, if the, the executive director were not giving a, a decision they felt was fair.

393. 1:31:49

     We have, we have a court system that we believe in. That, that, um, concludes our questions. Uh, we had no one to sign up. Is there anybody? We've been here a little, we've been here a, a minute. Uh, if anybody's sit- sitting on anything out there, I, I would give you a, a minute before the committee. Uh, if not, Senator, uh, I thank you for bringing it. Thank you. Is it fair for me to summarize this for you as the, the, your, th- this is in earnest trying to clean up some areas and protect students in Georgia? That's, that's good. Uh, and, and to do that. Okay, that, that's fair enough, and we'll get you, uh, back on a- as quickly as we can. I mean, a- as the senator well knows that, uh, we've got some House bills we've got to get to before crossover day.

394. 1:32:24

     Crossover. But I wanted to get this, uh, before it, um, but we, we, we're gonna, we're gonna get you back. We think you got a good proposition. I thank you. If there's no further business before the, let me just say this. Um, we may meet again before next Wednesday as we approach the, the crossover. We have some members that are working on, uh, legislation that, that we've heard before that needed a little work. Um, so we may need to try to get together before next Wednesday. So just keep a, keep an eye out for your mail. I'll try to give you plenty of notice and, and get you, uh, copies of that legislation, uh, so that we'll have to look at.

395. 1:32:56

     But it, with that said, if there's no further business before the committee, we'll stand adjourned without objection. I see none. We are adjourned. Thank you, sir. Sir, very good. All right. You know what? Let me tell you. You know what scares me? More time. I'll tell you what scares me. Thank you. Sir. I was around when they, um, when they-